Guest guest Posted May 15, 2001 Report Share Posted May 15, 2001 Hey -- I did this already (last week). You should have received it via email and it should be in your deleted items file unless you cleaned it out already. If you don't have it, maybe someone can repost it. I cleaned my deleted items out just this afternoon so I can not send it to you again-- I don't have it. Brad Re: RN > It would be really nice for some of the RN / LP's out > there that actually attended both courses to tell us > more about what they think. I would also like to see > the colleges taking input from these same people. > They are the only ones that can shed light on this > subject from the inside and assist in developing the > bridge programs that should be there. > > > > E. Tate, LP > Tyler, Texas > > > > --- wegandy@... wrote: > > Jeff is absolutely correct on this one. Experience > > does not equal > > competence. > > > > We have undertaken the evaluation process and have > > found that our evaluation > > instrument clearly shows nurses the areas they need > > additional knowledge and > > experience in. Most need to take the EMT-Basic > > program, and most also need > > EMS Operations, Trauma Management, Cardiology, > > Introduction to Advanced > > Practice, Advanced Airway and Assessment, and > > usually some other stuff. > > Their education and experience may be able to get > > them through Pharm, and > > they've had A & P and Psych. > > > > The biggest problem is adjusting the mindset from > > in-hospital to prehospital > > thinking. Street sense only comes with being on the > > street. > > > > So, while there are areas of overlap, the two > > disciplines are essentially and > > fundamentally different. It will not be > > satisfactory for nurses to challenge > > Paramedic nor Paramedics to challenge Nursing. > > Bridge courses can be > > designed, however, and it should not be necessary > > for the entire curriculum > > to be taken by either. > > > > Gene > > > > E. Gandy, JD, LP > > EMS Professions Program > > Tyler Junior College > > Tyler, TX > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > > removed] > > > > > > > ===== > You can make a difference! > CITIZENS UNITE! > Join EMSAT! > http://www.emsatoftx.com/ > > " ....under his wings you will find refuge; his faithfulness will be your shield and rampart. " - Psalm 91:4 > > __________________________________________________ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 15, 2001 Report Share Posted May 15, 2001 yup-- thats the one! thanks for reposting it! :-) Brad Re: RN > > > >Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 05:46:34 -0500 > > > > > > > >Lola, > > > > > > > >Hrm, since all of the 'bridge' programs I have seen require the > SAME > > > >nursing > > > >courses as the RN 'from scratch' I see no problem with it. Most > > > >'bridge' courses are basically designed to expand on what the > Paramedic > > can > > > >already do (like take BP's, assess patients, give medicines) > instead of > > > >dwelling on them the way you have to with the 'scratch' RN. If an > RN > > wants > > > >to take a 'bridge' course that contains all of the Paramedic > material > > (with > > > >emphasis on such things as intubation, extrication, and scene > safety and > > > >de-emphasis on assessment and V/S), I would have no problem with > that > > > >either. > > > > > > > >By following your train of thought, the LPN bridge programs should > not > > > >exist > > > >either. I get the feeling that this is going to lead to the > Paramedics > > can > > > >do everything RN's can do. No they can't. Yes they can. No they > can't, > > > >argument. > > > > > > > >Oh, and congratulations on graduating from the BSN program. > > > > > > > > Webb, LP > > > >trying to take the time to go to RN school > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2001 Report Share Posted May 16, 2001 In a message dated 5/16/01 9:55:56 AM Pacific Daylight Time, logicdonor@... writes: << I have to say that I am literally appauled with the general EMS reaction to RN, PA equivalency issue. This whole issue was brought up by Jeff Jarvis because GETAC was going to discuss the issue of changing the rule according to TDH suggested changes. Jeff, not only misquoted TDH policy, he knowingly misdirected the EMS public into thinking this was a " challenge " process to gain paramedic certification. I think this a sick ploy to set two groups of professions that already have turf problems into a frenzy. If you don't agree, have some basis to your argument, Jeff. Don't lie about the policy to try to gain support.>> I don't know you, Champagne, but I believe that openly calling someone a liar on this list is wrong. I do know Jeff Jarvis and I honestly do not believe that he would lie. He has been involved in EMS for many years and is one of the most respected educators in EMS in Texas. No, I don't believe that any medical licensee should be able to become a paramedic with just their license/certification and an ACLS card. Yes, I do believe that paramedic/RN bridge courses can be a way for those aspiring paramedics to become nurses. At the present time I have a young lady who is in her final year of nursing school who has also enrolled in my EMT-Basic course. I have much respect for her in doing this. My mother is an RN of many years experience, most of it as Director of Nurses at hospitals and a nursing home. She realizes that she, as an RN, could not function as a paramedic with her current level or knowledge of emergency medical procedures. I would request that you, , refrain from calling people liars on this list. I just do not think (1)that it is professional and (2)only creates further problems in a profession, EMS, which is plagued with enough problems. The opinions expressed are mine and in no way represent any other person or entity. Thank you, Jeff Jarvis, for you input and insight in EMS. , BS, LP EMS Professions Program Tyler Junior College Today's Thought: When facing a difficult task, act as though it is impossible to fail. If you're going after Moby Dick, take along the tartar sauce. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2001 Report Share Posted May 16, 2001 I have to say that I am literally appauled with the general EMS reaction to RN, PA equivalency issue. This whole issue was brought up by Jeff Jarvis because GETAC was going to discuss the issue of changing the rule according to TDH suggested changes. Jeff, not only misquoted TDH policy, he knowingly misdirected the EMS public into thinking this was a " challenge " process to gain paramedic certification. I think this a sick ploy to set two groups of professions that already have turf problems into a frenzy. If you don't agree, have some basis to your argument, Jeff. Don't lie about the policy to try to gain support. Re: RN > yup-- thats the one! thanks for reposting it! :-) > Brad > Re: RN > > > > >Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 05:46:34 -0500 > > > > > > > > > >Lola, > > > > > > > > > >Hrm, since all of the 'bridge' programs I have seen require the > > SAME > > > > >nursing > > > > >courses as the RN 'from scratch' I see no problem with it. Most > > > > >'bridge' courses are basically designed to expand on what the > > Paramedic > > > can > > > > >already do (like take BP's, assess patients, give medicines) > > instead of > > > > >dwelling on them the way you have to with the 'scratch' RN. If an > > RN > > > wants > > > > >to take a 'bridge' course that contains all of the Paramedic > > material > > > (with > > > > >emphasis on such things as intubation, extrication, and scene > > safety and > > > > >de-emphasis on assessment and V/S), I would have no problem with > > that > > > > >either. > > > > > > > > > >By following your train of thought, the LPN bridge programs > should > > not > > > > >exist > > > > >either. I get the feeling that this is going to lead to the > > Paramedics > > > can > > > > >do everything RN's can do. No they can't. Yes they can. No they > > can't, > > > > >argument. > > > > > > > > > >Oh, and congratulations on graduating from the BSN program. > > > > > > > > > > Webb, LP > > > > >trying to take the time to go to RN school > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2001 Report Share Posted May 16, 2001 I have to agree with you Brad...You put it well..The turf fighting has got to stop. They should be respected for their profession as well as we should be. Ron Haussaker is a prime example of one that wants grandfathering in the paramedic licensure. Using " experience " as a form of licensure is what he is fighting for. Yet he opposes nurses using their " experience " to count for equivalency. hummm....double standard perhaps. The " emotional logic " being used is embarrassing. Have some sense to distinquish the HOGWASH these people are feeding EMS personnel...Guys, they make us look bad! Re: RN > yup-- thats the one! thanks for reposting it! :-) > Brad > Re: RN > > > > >Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 05:46:34 -0500 > > > > > > > > > >Lola, > > > > > > > > > >Hrm, since all of the 'bridge' programs I have seen require the > > SAME > > > > >nursing > > > > >courses as the RN 'from scratch' I see no problem with it. Most > > > > >'bridge' courses are basically designed to expand on what the > > Paramedic > > > can > > > > >already do (like take BP's, assess patients, give medicines) > > instead of > > > > >dwelling on them the way you have to with the 'scratch' RN. If an > > RN > > > wants > > > > >to take a 'bridge' course that contains all of the Paramedic > > material > > > (with > > > > >emphasis on such things as intubation, extrication, and scene > > safety and > > > > >de-emphasis on assessment and V/S), I would have no problem with > > that > > > > >either. > > > > > > > > > >By following your train of thought, the LPN bridge programs > should > > not > > > > >exist > > > > >either. I get the feeling that this is going to lead to the > > Paramedics > > > can > > > > >do everything RN's can do. No they can't. Yes they can. No they > > can't, > > > > >argument. > > > > > > > > > >Oh, and congratulations on graduating from the BSN program. > > > > > > > > > > Webb, LP > > > > >trying to take the time to go to RN school > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2001 Report Share Posted May 16, 2001 The only policy that makes sense is that if you want the license/certification, take the darn course! This should go either way, nurse or paramedic. If I want to be a nurse I will enroll in a full nursing program after I have all of the required pre-reqs. If a nurse wants to be a paramedic he/she should enroll in an EMT course and then in a full paramedic course. No credit for experience for either parties!! Steve Dralle, EMT-P EMSC San , TX The opinions expressed in this message are my own and do not represent the opinions or policies of my employers. Re: RN > yup-- thats the one! thanks for reposting it! :-) > Brad > Re: RN > > > > >Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 05:46:34 -0500 > > > > > > > > > >Lola, > > > > > > > > > >Hrm, since all of the 'bridge' programs I have seen require the > > SAME > > > > >nursing > > > > >courses as the RN 'from scratch' I see no problem with it. Most > > > > >'bridge' courses are basically designed to expand on what the > > Paramedic > > > can > > > > >already do (like take BP's, assess patients, give medicines) > > instead of > > > > >dwelling on them the way you have to with the 'scratch' RN. If an > > RN > > > wants > > > > >to take a 'bridge' course that contains all of the Paramedic > > material > > > (with > > > > >emphasis on such things as intubation, extrication, and scene > > safety and > > > > >de-emphasis on assessment and V/S), I would have no problem with > > that > > > > >either. > > > > > > > > > >By following your train of thought, the LPN bridge programs > should > > not > > > > >exist > > > > >either. I get the feeling that this is going to lead to the > > Paramedics > > > can > > > > >do everything RN's can do. No they can't. Yes they can. No they > > can't, > > > > >argument. > > > > > > > > > >Oh, and congratulations on graduating from the BSN program. > > > > > > > > > > Webb, LP > > > > >trying to take the time to go to RN school > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2001 Report Share Posted May 16, 2001 , I am sorry you feel this way. However, Jeff did not mislead anyone. Actually, the real issue at hand is that TDH failed to follow its own rule and implemented a policy that was in direct conflict to the rule. I realize that some out there misunderstood the issue. However, Jeff is to be thanked for keeping on top of the issue and bringing it to eveyones attention. Obviously, the (3) subcommittees of GETAC and GETAC felt there was merit to his concerns. Simply stated, if the EMS community is expected to follow the rules then TDH should do the same. Henry Barber susan champagne wrote: > I have to say that I am literally appauled with the general EMS > reaction to RN, PA equivalency issue. This whole issue was brought up > by Jeff Jarvis because GETAC was going to discuss the issue of > changing the rule according to TDH suggested changes. Jeff, not only > misquoted TDH policy, he knowingly misdirected the EMS public into > thinking this was a " challenge " process to gain paramedic > certification. I think this a sick ploy to set two groups of > professions that already have turf problems into a frenzy. If you > don't agree, have some basis to your argument, Jeff. Don't lie about > the policy to try to gain support. > > Re: RN > > > > yup-- thats the one! thanks for reposting it! :-) > > Brad > > Re: RN > > > > > >Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 05:46:34 -0500 > > > > > > > > > > > >Lola, > > > > > > > > > > > >Hrm, since all of the 'bridge' programs I have seen > require the > > > SAME > > > > > >nursing > > > > > >courses as the RN 'from scratch' I see no problem with > it. Most > > > > > >'bridge' courses are basically designed to expand on what > the > > > Paramedic > > > > can > > > > > >already do (like take BP's, assess patients, give > medicines) > > > instead of > > > > > >dwelling on them the way you have to with the 'scratch' > RN. If an > > > RN > > > > wants > > > > > >to take a 'bridge' course that contains all of the > Paramedic > > > material > > > > (with > > > > > >emphasis on such things as intubation, extrication, and > scene > > > safety and > > > > > >de-emphasis on assessment and V/S), I would have no > problem with > > > that > > > > > >either. > > > > > > > > > > > >By following your train of thought, the LPN bridge > programs > > should > > > not > > > > > >exist > > > > > >either. I get the feeling that this is going to lead to > the > > > Paramedics > > > > can > > > > > >do everything RN's can do. No they can't. Yes they can. > No they > > > can't, > > > > > >argument. > > > > > > > > > > > >Oh, and congratulations on graduating from the BSN > program. > > > > > > > > > > > > Webb, LP > > > > > >trying to take the time to go to RN school > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2001 Report Share Posted May 16, 2001 There should be no grandfather clause, no experience replacing standards, etc. We either have standards or we do not. If the powers that be set the standards for paramedic licensure at an associated degree or better, then the only people that should be able to get them is people who have an associated degree or better. If the Board of Nurse Examiners (or whomever establishes nursing curricula) sets a standard for nurse education, than anyone wanting that license should complete ALL of that education. If the paramedic curriculum is currently 1200 didactic hours than anyone who wants that certification should complete all 1200 hours and all clinical rotations, period. No exceptions, no waivers, no credit for experience, across the board! Why is this so hard for people to accept? Steve Dralle, EMT-P EMSC CES Specialist American Medical Response-San Re: RN > yup-- thats the one! thanks for reposting it! :-) > Brad > Re: RN > > > > >Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 05:46:34 -0500 > > > > > > > > > >Lola, > > > > > > > > > >Hrm, since all of the 'bridge' programs I have seen require the > > SAME > > > > >nursing > > > > >courses as the RN 'from scratch' I see no problem with it. Most > > > > >'bridge' courses are basically designed to expand on what the > > Paramedic > > > can > > > > >already do (like take BP's, assess patients, give medicines) > > instead of > > > > >dwelling on them the way you have to with the 'scratch' RN. If an > > RN > > > wants > > > > >to take a 'bridge' course that contains all of the Paramedic > > material > > > (with > > > > >emphasis on such things as intubation, extrication, and scene > > safety and > > > > >de-emphasis on assessment and V/S), I would have no problem with > > that > > > > >either. > > > > > > > > > >By following your train of thought, the LPN bridge programs > should > > not > > > > >exist > > > > >either. I get the feeling that this is going to lead to the > > Paramedics > > > can > > > > >do everything RN's can do. No they can't. Yes they can. No they > > can't, > > > > >argument. > > > > > > > > > >Oh, and congratulations on graduating from the BSN program. > > > > > > > > > > Webb, LP > > > > >trying to take the time to go to RN school > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2001 Report Share Posted May 16, 2001 THANK YOU STEVE!!!! That should be the policy with ANY program you want certification/licensure in. Wayne Re: RN > yup-- thats the one! thanks for reposting it! :-) > Brad > Re: RN > > > > >Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 05:46:34 -0500 > > > > > > > > > >Lola, > > > > > > > > > >Hrm, since all of the 'bridge' programs I have seen require the > > SAME > > > > >nursing > > > > >courses as the RN 'from scratch' I see no problem with it. Most > > > > >'bridge' courses are basically designed to expand on what the > > Paramedic > > > can > > > > >already do (like take BP's, assess patients, give medicines) > > instead of > > > > >dwelling on them the way you have to with the 'scratch' RN. If an > > RN > > > wants > > > > >to take a 'bridge' course that contains all of the Paramedic > > material > > > (with > > > > >emphasis on such things as intubation, extrication, and scene > > safety and > > > > >de-emphasis on assessment and V/S), I would have no problem with > > that > > > > >either. > > > > > > > > > >By following your train of thought, the LPN bridge programs > should > > not > > > > >exist > > > > >either. I get the feeling that this is going to lead to the > > Paramedics > > > can > > > > >do everything RN's can do. No they can't. Yes they can. No they > > can't, > > > > >argument. > > > > > > > > > >Oh, and congratulations on graduating from the BSN program. > > > > > > > > > > Webb, LP > > > > >trying to take the time to go to RN school > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2001 Report Share Posted May 16, 2001 You sign your post, so we will know 1) who you are 2) if you are a RN or Paramedic or a Vet, etc. Wayne Re: RN > yup-- thats the one! thanks for reposting it! :-) > Brad > Re: RN > > > > >Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 05:46:34 -0500 > > > > > > > > > >Lola, > > > > > > > > > >Hrm, since all of the 'bridge' programs I have seen require the > > SAME > > > > >nursing > > > > >courses as the RN 'from scratch' I see no problem with it. Most > > > > >'bridge' courses are basically designed to expand on what the > > Paramedic > > > can > > > > >already do (like take BP's, assess patients, give medicines) > > instead of > > > > >dwelling on them the way you have to with the 'scratch' RN. If an > > RN > > > wants > > > > >to take a 'bridge' course that contains all of the Paramedic > > material > > > (with > > > > >emphasis on such things as intubation, extrication, and scene > > safety and > > > > >de-emphasis on assessment and V/S), I would have no problem with > > that > > > > >either. > > > > > > > > > >By following your train of thought, the LPN bridge programs > should > > not > > > > >exist > > > > >either. I get the feeling that this is going to lead to the > > Paramedics > > > can > > > > >do everything RN's can do. No they can't. Yes they can. No they > > can't, > > > > >argument. > > > > > > > > > >Oh, and congratulations on graduating from the BSN program. > > > > > > > > > > Webb, LP > > > > >trying to take the time to go to RN school > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2001 Report Share Posted May 16, 2001 AMEN HENRY! I think that Jeff did a good thing here, and I agree with Henry, he did not mislead anything. However, in one stroke of the pen, TDH does away with the rule and in another stoke, puts it back in there, but makes it where ANYONE with a RN, PA, RT, PT, OT, MLT, MT, and the list goes on so that they can get a EMS certification based on prior medical training. That is HOGWASH as put it. Wayne (I sign my posts) Re: RN > > > > yup-- thats the one! thanks for reposting it! :-) > > Brad > > Re: RN > > > > > >Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 05:46:34 -0500 > > > > > > > > > > > >Lola, > > > > > > > > > > > >Hrm, since all of the 'bridge' programs I have seen > require the > > > SAME > > > > > >nursing > > > > > >courses as the RN 'from scratch' I see no problem with > it. Most > > > > > >'bridge' courses are basically designed to expand on what > the > > > Paramedic > > > > can > > > > > >already do (like take BP's, assess patients, give > medicines) > > > instead of > > > > > >dwelling on them the way you have to with the 'scratch' > RN. If an > > > RN > > > > wants > > > > > >to take a 'bridge' course that contains all of the > Paramedic > > > material > > > > (with > > > > > >emphasis on such things as intubation, extrication, and > scene > > > safety and > > > > > >de-emphasis on assessment and V/S), I would have no > problem with > > > that > > > > > >either. > > > > > > > > > > > >By following your train of thought, the LPN bridge > programs > > should > > > not > > > > > >exist > > > > > >either. I get the feeling that this is going to lead to > the > > > Paramedics > > > > can > > > > > >do everything RN's can do. No they can't. Yes they can. > No they > > > can't, > > > > > >argument. > > > > > > > > > > > >Oh, and congratulations on graduating from the BSN > program. > > > > > > > > > > > > Webb, LP > > > > > >trying to take the time to go to RN school > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2001 Report Share Posted May 16, 2001 AMEN, STEVE.... Wayne Re: RN > yup-- thats the one! thanks for reposting it! :-) > Brad > Re: RN > > > > >Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 05:46:34 -0500 > > > > > > > > > >Lola, > > > > > > > > > >Hrm, since all of the 'bridge' programs I have seen require the > > SAME > > > > >nursing > > > > >courses as the RN 'from scratch' I see no problem with it. Most > > > > >'bridge' courses are basically designed to expand on what the > > Paramedic > > > can > > > > >already do (like take BP's, assess patients, give medicines) > > instead of > > > > >dwelling on them the way you have to with the 'scratch' RN. If an > > RN > > > wants > > > > >to take a 'bridge' course that contains all of the Paramedic > > material > > > (with > > > > >emphasis on such things as intubation, extrication, and scene > > safety and > > > > >de-emphasis on assessment and V/S), I would have no problem with > > that > > > > >either. > > > > > > > > > >By following your train of thought, the LPN bridge programs > should > > not > > > > >exist > > > > >either. I get the feeling that this is going to lead to the > > Paramedics > > > can > > > > >do everything RN's can do. No they can't. Yes they can. No they > > can't, > > > > >argument. > > > > > > > > > >Oh, and congratulations on graduating from the BSN program. > > > > > > > > > > Webb, LP > > > > >trying to take the time to go to RN school > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2001 Report Share Posted May 16, 2001 It seems to be the only solution that seems to make sense. I have a tremendous amount of respect for nurses (my mother is a nurse) and most nurses I know have a tremendous amount of respect for paramedics. I know I could not walk into an ER/ICU/Floor/OR/Dialysis Unit/ or any of the many other areas nurses must work and be a good nurses (I couldn't even be a bad one!) but I think most reasonable nurses realize that they could not jump on a truck and be a really good medic either. What we need to do here is re-direct our thoughts on this from the perspective of the patient. Who do you want to care for your loved ones when they are in the ICU or ER or when they are in a wreck on the highway? Do you want someone that was given credit for experience rather than completing all of the requirements? I don't! Steve Dralle Re: RN > yup-- thats the one! thanks for reposting it! :-) > Brad > Re: RN > > > > >Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 05:46:34 -0500 > > > > > > > > > >Lola, > > > > > > > > > >Hrm, since all of the 'bridge' programs I have seen require the > > SAME > > > > >nursing > > > > >courses as the RN 'from scratch' I see no problem with it. Most > > > > >'bridge' courses are basically designed to expand on what the > > Paramedic > > > can > > > > >already do (like take BP's, assess patients, give medicines) > > instead of > > > > >dwelling on them the way you have to with the 'scratch' RN. If an > > RN > > > wants > > > > >to take a 'bridge' course that contains all of the Paramedic > > material > > > (with > > > > >emphasis on such things as intubation, extrication, and scene > > safety and > > > > >de-emphasis on assessment and V/S), I would have no problem with > > that > > > > >either. > > > > > > > > > >By following your train of thought, the LPN bridge programs > should > > not > > > > >exist > > > > >either. I get the feeling that this is going to lead to the > > Paramedics > > > can > > > > >do everything RN's can do. No they can't. Yes they can. No they > > can't, > > > > >argument. > > > > > > > > > >Oh, and congratulations on graduating from the BSN program. > > > > > > > > > > Webb, LP > > > > >trying to take the time to go to RN school > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2001 Report Share Posted May 16, 2001 We probably would not be having this discuss if it were not for a stakeholder putting pressure on TDH to go back and change the rules to fit that stakeholders needs. First what is wrong with this picture. Since when does a state agency change it's rules and policies to satisfy one group of people. I'm not aware of any, except one and it appears that TDH is that agency. You don't see the BNE changing any rules to allow a paramedic to sit for the RN exam. Even if every paramedic in the state went before the BNE they would not change, because it would not benefit the nursing profession, at least for the better. Because we as paramedics are not taught nursing in school, so who would be at risk? The patient? The inexperienced and untrained paramedic? Both. As Steve pointed out, if you want the certification.licensure you should EARN IT. It should not be handed to you based on a RN license or any other license. Nursing should not have a say in EMS, period. This is not something that they have been trained in, and until they EARN that red patch, they should not have a say. I don't care if they have been a ER/ICU/CCU/Flight nurse for 30 yrs, until they EARN that red patch through completing a training program of 1200 or 2000 hrs, they SHOULD NOT be trying to pressure a state agency or council into changing the rules to make them happy. Wayne EMT-P (EARNED FROM SCRATCH) Re: RN > > > > yup-- thats the one! thanks for reposting it! :-) > > Brad > > Re: RN > > > > > >Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 05:46:34 -0500 > > > > > > > > > > > >Lola, > > > > > > > > > > > >Hrm, since all of the 'bridge' programs I have seen > require the > > > SAME > > > > > >nursing > > > > > >courses as the RN 'from scratch' I see no problem with > it. Most > > > > > >'bridge' courses are basically designed to expand on what > the > > > Paramedic > > > > can > > > > > >already do (like take BP's, assess patients, give > medicines) > > > instead of > > > > > >dwelling on them the way you have to with the 'scratch' > RN. If an > > > RN > > > > wants > > > > > >to take a 'bridge' course that contains all of the > Paramedic > > > material > > > > (with > > > > > >emphasis on such things as intubation, extrication, and > scene > > > safety and > > > > > >de-emphasis on assessment and V/S), I would have no > problem with > > > that > > > > > >either. > > > > > > > > > > > >By following your train of thought, the LPN bridge > programs > > should > > > not > > > > > >exist > > > > > >either. I get the feeling that this is going to lead to > the > > > Paramedics > > > > can > > > > > >do everything RN's can do. No they can't. Yes they can. > No they > > > can't, > > > > > >argument. > > > > > > > > > > > >Oh, and congratulations on graduating from the BSN > program. > > > > > > > > > > > > Webb, LP > > > > > >trying to take the time to go to RN school > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2001 Report Share Posted May 16, 2001 Steve, I agree with most of what you said. Another avenue of thought here is, why are so many nurses wanting to bridge over to paramedic certification? Most cases I here of have to do with positions with Flight programs that require it. Is this a TDH requirement? If not why require it? Flight programs who fly with a EMT-P / RN crew use this mixture to get the most bang for their buck. " In theory " the nurse could lead the team during intrahospital flights and the paramedic lead the team during on-scenes. The program I worked for required RNs to get EMT certification. The rationalle was that nurses needed exposure to pre-hospital situations and equipment. I flew as a paramedic and nothing extra was required of me. I was dealing with patients on venitlators, arterial line monitoring, CVP lines, and temporary pacermakers for the first time. I was told I could get the experience on the job. Doesn't sound like a fair shake to me. I could be persuaded either way on the issue of " bridging " or " challenging " vs. taking the whole course, but I would like the discussions to be pursued with logical /evidenced based points and not statements like, " well they won't let us do it " . Just my thoughts. Pat RN, BSN, LP P.S. Paramedic before nursing school. > It seems to be the only solution that seems to make sense. I have a > tremendous amount of respect for nurses (my mother is a nurse) and most > nurses I know have a tremendous amount of respect for paramedics. > > I know I could not walk into an ER/ICU/Floor/OR/Dialysis Unit/ or any of the > many other areas nurses must work and be a good nurses (I couldn't even be a > bad one!) but I think most reasonable nurses realize that they could not > jump on a truck and be a really good medic either. > > What we need to do here is re-direct our thoughts on this from the > perspective of the patient. Who do you want to care for your loved ones > when they are in the ICU or ER or when they are in a wreck on the highway? > Do you want someone that was given credit for experience rather than > completing all of the requirements? I don't! > > Steve Dralle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2001 Report Share Posted May 16, 2001 I have worked with a flight program as well and though the one I worked for ran two paramedics without any nurses I think that if you would not be required to get extra training, why on earth would the RN (and most of the RNs I know if flight programs have extensive ER/ICU experience) have to get their EMT, why not have the nurse go through in-service training on the field equipment and possible a kinetics of trauma and a trauma scene management course rather than an entire EMT program. It almost seems like the flight programs are looking for an easy way to cover something externally that should be a part of the internal training program. Steve Dralle, EMT-P San , TX Re: RN Steve, I agree with most of what you said. Another avenue of thought here is, why are so many nurses wanting to bridge over to paramedic certification? Most cases I here of have to do with positions with Flight programs that require it. Is this a TDH requirement? If not why require it? Flight programs who fly with a EMT-P / RN crew use this mixture to get the most bang for their buck. " In theory " the nurse could lead the team during intrahospital flights and the paramedic lead the team during on-scenes. The program I worked for required RNs to get EMT certification. The rationalle was that nurses needed exposure to pre-hospital situations and equipment. I flew as a paramedic and nothing extra was required of me. I was dealing with patients on venitlators, arterial line monitoring, CVP lines, and temporary pacermakers for the first time. I was told I could get the experience on the job. Doesn't sound like a fair shake to me. I could be persuaded either way on the issue of " bridging " or " challenging " vs. taking the whole course, but I would like the discussions to be pursued with logical /evidenced based points and not statements like, " well they won't let us do it " . Just my thoughts. Pat RN, BSN, LP P.S. Paramedic before nursing school. > It seems to be the only solution that seems to make sense. I have a > tremendous amount of respect for nurses (my mother is a nurse) and most > nurses I know have a tremendous amount of respect for paramedics. > > I know I could not walk into an ER/ICU/Floor/OR/Dialysis Unit/ or any of the > many other areas nurses must work and be a good nurses (I couldn't even be a > bad one!) but I think most reasonable nurses realize that they could not > jump on a truck and be a really good medic either. > > What we need to do here is re-direct our thoughts on this from the > perspective of the patient. Who do you want to care for your loved ones > when they are in the ICU or ER or when they are in a wreck on the highway? > Do you want someone that was given credit for experience rather than > completing all of the requirements? I don't! > > Steve Dralle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2001 Report Share Posted May 16, 2001 Steve, I agree with your line of thought and the points you've brought up. There seems to be alot of angry people on each side of this issue and some of what is being sent across this list is hurtful and counter-productive. I respect the jobs that my colleagues in nursing do and am respected by my peers in nursing as well, (I think!!!!). I agree that you should be given credit for education / training received only. Not for experience unless you are willing to extend the same credit to others seeking a way to " challenge a certification " . GETAC will consider everyone's position concerning this and all issues and will try to come to a conclusion that we feel will serve our constituents (our patients) in the best way possible. Pete Wolf Re: RN > > > > > >Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 05:46:34 -0500 > > > > > > > > > > > >Lola, > > > > > > > > > > > >Hrm, since all of the 'bridge' programs I have seen require > the > > > SAME > > > > > >nursing > > > > > >courses as the RN 'from scratch' I see no problem with it. > Most > > > > > >'bridge' courses are basically designed to expand on what > the > > > Paramedic > > > > can > > > > > >already do (like take BP's, assess patients, give > medicines) > > > instead of > > > > > >dwelling on them the way you have to with the 'scratch' RN. > If > an > > > RN > > > > wants > > > > > >to take a 'bridge' course that contains all of the > Paramedic > > > material > > > > (with > > > > > >emphasis on such things as intubation, extrication, and > scene > > > safety and > > > > > >de-emphasis on assessment and V/S), I would have no problem > with > > > that > > > > > >either. > > > > > > > > > > > >By following your train of thought, the LPN bridge programs > > should > > > not > > > > > >exist > > > > > >either. I get the feeling that this is going to lead to the > > > Paramedics > > > > can > > > > > >do everything RN's can do. No they can't. Yes they can. No > they > > > can't, > > > > > >argument. > > > > > > > > > > > >Oh, and congratulations on graduating from the BSN program. > > > > > > > > > > > > Webb, LP > > > > > >trying to take the time to go to RN school > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2001 Report Share Posted May 16, 2001 Actually, this is the first discussion about Paramedic/RN that I have ever witnessed to be of a very professional demeanor. I personally think that both sides have been equally professional and have been extremely good at honoring other opinions (especially when they didn't agree). In addition, I have learned a great deal from the discussions. I always respect a good debate, as long as the debate stays focused on the issue, and not on each other. Just my .02 cents worth. You paid less than that for it! Ben Segler Re: RN > In a message dated 5/16/01 9:55:56 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > logicdonor@... writes: > > << I have to say that I am literally appauled with the general EMS reaction > to RN, PA equivalency issue. This whole issue was brought up by Jeff Jarvis > because GETAC was going to discuss the issue of changing the rule according > to TDH suggested changes. Jeff, not only misquoted TDH policy, he knowingly > misdirected the EMS public into thinking this was a " challenge " process to > gain paramedic certification. I think this a sick ploy to set two groups of > professions that already have turf problems into a frenzy. If you don't > agree, have some basis to your argument, Jeff. Don't lie about the policy to > try to gain support.>> > > I don't know you, Champagne, but I believe that openly calling someone > a liar on this list is wrong. I do know Jeff Jarvis and I honestly do not > believe that he would lie. He has been involved in EMS for many years and is > one of the most respected educators in EMS in Texas. > > No, I don't believe that any medical licensee should be able to become a > paramedic with just their license/certification and an ACLS card. Yes, I do > believe that paramedic/RN bridge courses can be a way for those aspiring > paramedics to become nurses. At the present time I have a young lady who is > in her final year of nursing school who has also enrolled in my EMT-Basic > course. I have much respect for her in doing this. > > My mother is an RN of many years experience, most of it as Director of Nurses > at hospitals and a nursing home. She realizes that she, as an RN, could not > function as a paramedic with her current level or knowledge of emergency > medical procedures. > > I would request that you, , refrain from calling people liars on this > list. I just do not think (1)that it is professional and (2)only creates > further problems in a profession, EMS, which is plagued with enough problems. > > The opinions expressed are mine and in no way represent any other person or > entity. > > Thank you, Jeff Jarvis, for you input and insight in EMS. > > , BS, LP > EMS Professions Program > Tyler Junior College > > Today's Thought: > > When facing a difficult task, act as though it is impossible to fail. If > you're going after Moby Dick, take along the tartar sauce. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2001 Report Share Posted May 16, 2001 I have to agree with this rationale of thinking. If you want it, you take the classes to get it. Nothing more, nothing less. Eddie on, EMT-P Re: RN > > > > > >Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 05:46:34 -0500 > > > > > > > > > > > >Lola, > > > > > > > > > > > >Hrm, since all of the 'bridge' programs I have seen require > the > > > SAME > > > > > >nursing > > > > > >courses as the RN 'from scratch' I see no problem with it. > Most > > > > > >'bridge' courses are basically designed to expand on what > the > > > Paramedic > > > > can > > > > > >already do (like take BP's, assess patients, give > medicines) > > > instead of > > > > > >dwelling on them the way you have to with the 'scratch' RN. > If > an > > > RN > > > > wants > > > > > >to take a 'bridge' course that contains all of the > Paramedic > > > material > > > > (with > > > > > >emphasis on such things as intubation, extrication, and > scene > > > safety and > > > > > >de-emphasis on assessment and V/S), I would have no problem > with > > > that > > > > > >either. > > > > > > > > > > > >By following your train of thought, the LPN bridge programs > > should > > > not > > > > > >exist > > > > > >either. I get the feeling that this is going to lead to the > > > Paramedics > > > > can > > > > > >do everything RN's can do. No they can't. Yes they can. No > they > > > can't, > > > > > >argument. > > > > > > > > > > > >Oh, and congratulations on graduating from the BSN program. > > > > > > > > > > > > Webb, LP > > > > > >trying to take the time to go to RN school > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2001 Report Share Posted May 17, 2001 Henry......there is an exemption for flight programs......only one certified person needs to be on board. One Paramedic. The other person may be an MD, DO, RN, RT.....................but only one certified person. I know, it defeats everything we know about EMS rules, but it's true. Take care, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2001 Report Share Posted May 17, 2001 The helicopter is a ambulance thus two certified personnel on board. Henry smithp@... wrote: > Steve, > I agree with most of what you said. Another avenue of thought here > is, why are so many nurses wanting to bridge over to paramedic > certification? Most cases I here of have to do with positions with > Flight programs that require it. Is this a TDH requirement? If not > why require it? Flight programs who fly with a EMT-P / RN crew use > this mixture to get the most bang for their buck. " In theory " the > nurse could lead the team during intrahospital flights and the > paramedic lead the team during on-scenes. The program I worked for > required RNs to get EMT certification. The rationalle was that nurses > needed exposure to pre-hospital situations and equipment. I flew as a > paramedic and nothing extra was required of me. I was dealing with > patients on venitlators, arterial line monitoring, CVP lines, and > temporary pacermakers for the first time. I was told I could get the > experience on the job. Doesn't sound like a fair shake to me. I could > be persuaded either way on the issue of " bridging " or " challenging " > vs. taking the whole course, but I would like the discussions to be > pursued with logical /evidenced based points and not statements > like, " well they won't let us do it " . > Just my thoughts. > > Pat RN, BSN, LP > > P.S. > Paramedic before nursing school. > > > > > > It seems to be the only solution that seems to make sense. I have a > > > tremendous amount of respect for nurses (my mother is a nurse) and > most > > nurses I know have a tremendous amount of respect for paramedics. > > > > I know I could not walk into an ER/ICU/Floor/OR/Dialysis Unit/ or > any of the > > many other areas nurses must work and be a good nurses (I couldn't > even be a > > bad one!) but I think most reasonable nurses realize that they > could not > > jump on a truck and be a really good medic either. > > > > What we need to do here is re-direct our thoughts on this from the > > perspective of the patient. Who do you want to care for your loved > ones > > when they are in the ICU or ER or when they are in a wreck on the > highway? > > Do you want someone that was given credit for experience rather than > > > completing all of the requirements? I don't! > > > > Steve Dralle > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2001 Report Share Posted May 17, 2001 Actually they are not required to staff with two paramedics. According to rule 157.12 of the TAC: 157.12 (f) " ...staffing shall be as follows: (1) when responding to an emergency scene, at least one of the personnel shall be a paramedic; (2) when responding for an inter-facility transfer, at least one of the personnel performing patient care duties shall be a certified or licensed paramedic, registered nurse of physician. The qualifications and numbers of air medical personnel shall be appropriate to patient care needs; (3) when responding as in paragraphs (1) and (2) of this subsection, the second person may be a certified or licensed paramedic, registered nurse or a physician; and (4) air medical personnel shall not be assigned or assume the cockpit duties of the flight crew members with patient care duties and responsibilities. As I said before, if the stimulus for all of this crud about challenging or " bridging " is for air services, it is not necessary. A good CE program in-house could address all of the reasons a service would require EMT certification. Steve Dralle, EMT-P EMSC San , TX The opinions expressed in this message are my own and do not represent the opinions or policies of my employers. Re: Re: RN The helicopter is a ambulance thus two certified personnel on board. Henry smithp@... wrote: > Steve, > I agree with most of what you said. Another avenue of thought here > is, why are so many nurses wanting to bridge over to paramedic > certification? Most cases I here of have to do with positions with > Flight programs that require it. Is this a TDH requirement? If not > why require it? Flight programs who fly with a EMT-P / RN crew use > this mixture to get the most bang for their buck. " In theory " the > nurse could lead the team during intrahospital flights and the > paramedic lead the team during on-scenes. The program I worked for > required RNs to get EMT certification. The rationalle was that nurses > needed exposure to pre-hospital situations and equipment. I flew as a > paramedic and nothing extra was required of me. I was dealing with > patients on venitlators, arterial line monitoring, CVP lines, and > temporary pacermakers for the first time. I was told I could get the > experience on the job. Doesn't sound like a fair shake to me. I could > be persuaded either way on the issue of " bridging " or " challenging " > vs. taking the whole course, but I would like the discussions to be > pursued with logical /evidenced based points and not statements > like, " well they won't let us do it " . > Just my thoughts. > > Pat RN, BSN, LP > > P.S. > Paramedic before nursing school. > > > > > > It seems to be the only solution that seems to make sense. I have a > > > tremendous amount of respect for nurses (my mother is a nurse) and > most > > nurses I know have a tremendous amount of respect for paramedics. > > > > I know I could not walk into an ER/ICU/Floor/OR/Dialysis Unit/ or > any of the > > many other areas nurses must work and be a good nurses (I couldn't > even be a > > bad one!) but I think most reasonable nurses realize that they > could not > > jump on a truck and be a really good medic either. > > > > What we need to do here is re-direct our thoughts on this from the > > perspective of the patient. Who do you want to care for your loved > ones > > when they are in the ICU or ER or when they are in a wreck on the > highway? > > Do you want someone that was given credit for experience rather than > > > completing all of the requirements? I don't! > > > > Steve Dralle > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2001 Report Share Posted May 17, 2001 I stand corrected. I didn't know that. Henry I thought I was wrong once but I was mistaken. Dralle, Steve wrote: > Actually they are not required to staff with two paramedics. > According to > rule 157.12 of the TAC: > > 157.12 (f) " ...staffing shall be as follows: > (1) when responding to an emergency scene, at least one of the > personnel shall be a paramedic; > (2) when responding for an inter-facility transfer, at least one > of > the personnel performing patient care duties shall be a certified or > licensed paramedic, registered nurse of physician. The qualifications > and > numbers of air medical personnel shall be appropriate to patient care > needs; > (3) when responding as in paragraphs (1) and (2) of this > subsection, > the second person may be a certified or licensed paramedic, registered > nurse > or a physician; and > (4) air medical personnel shall not be assigned or assume the > cockpit duties of the flight crew members with patient care duties and > > responsibilities. > > As I said before, if the stimulus for all of this crud about > challenging or > " bridging " is for air services, it is not necessary. A good CE > program > in-house could address all of the reasons a service would require EMT > certification. > > Steve Dralle, EMT-P EMSC > San , TX > > The opinions expressed in this message are my own and do not represent > the > opinions or policies of my employers. > > > Re: Re: RN > > > The helicopter is a ambulance thus two certified personnel on board. > > Henry > > > smithp@... wrote: > > > Steve, > > I agree with most of what you said. Another avenue of thought here > > is, why are so many nurses wanting to bridge over to paramedic > > certification? Most cases I here of have to do with positions with > > Flight programs that require it. Is this a TDH requirement? If not > > why require it? Flight programs who fly with a EMT-P / RN crew use > > this mixture to get the most bang for their buck. " In theory " the > > nurse could lead the team during intrahospital flights and the > > paramedic lead the team during on-scenes. The program I worked for > > required RNs to get EMT certification. The rationalle was that > nurses > > needed exposure to pre-hospital situations and equipment. I flew as > a > > paramedic and nothing extra was required of me. I was dealing with > > patients on venitlators, arterial line monitoring, CVP lines, and > > temporary pacermakers for the first time. I was told I could get the > > > experience on the job. Doesn't sound like a fair shake to me. I > could > > be persuaded either way on the issue of " bridging " or " challenging " > > vs. taking the whole course, but I would like the discussions to be > > pursued with logical /evidenced based points and not statements > > like, " well they won't let us do it " . > > Just my thoughts. > > > > Pat RN, BSN, LP > > > > P.S. > > Paramedic before nursing school. > > > > > > > > > > > It seems to be the only solution that seems to make sense. I have > a > > > > > tremendous amount of respect for nurses (my mother is a nurse) and > > > most > > > nurses I know have a tremendous amount of respect for paramedics. > > > > > > I know I could not walk into an ER/ICU/Floor/OR/Dialysis Unit/ or > > any of the > > > many other areas nurses must work and be a good nurses (I couldn't > > > even be a > > > bad one!) but I think most reasonable nurses realize that they > > could not > > > jump on a truck and be a really good medic either. > > > > > > What we need to do here is re-direct our thoughts on this from the > > > > perspective of the patient. Who do you want to care for your > loved > > ones > > > when they are in the ICU or ER or when they are in a wreck on the > > highway? > > > Do you want someone that was given credit for experience rather > than > > > > > completing all of the requirements? I don't! > > > > > > Steve Dralle > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2001 Report Share Posted May 17, 2001 Happens to me all the time as well!!! : ) Re: Re: RN > > > The helicopter is a ambulance thus two certified personnel on board. > > Henry > > > smithp@... wrote: > > > Steve, > > I agree with most of what you said. Another avenue of thought here > > is, why are so many nurses wanting to bridge over to paramedic > > certification? Most cases I here of have to do with positions with > > Flight programs that require it. Is this a TDH requirement? If not > > why require it? Flight programs who fly with a EMT-P / RN crew use > > this mixture to get the most bang for their buck. " In theory " the > > nurse could lead the team during intrahospital flights and the > > paramedic lead the team during on-scenes. The program I worked for > > required RNs to get EMT certification. The rationalle was that > nurses > > needed exposure to pre-hospital situations and equipment. I flew as > a > > paramedic and nothing extra was required of me. I was dealing with > > patients on venitlators, arterial line monitoring, CVP lines, and > > temporary pacermakers for the first time. I was told I could get the > > > experience on the job. Doesn't sound like a fair shake to me. I > could > > be persuaded either way on the issue of " bridging " or " challenging " > > vs. taking the whole course, but I would like the discussions to be > > pursued with logical /evidenced based points and not statements > > like, " well they won't let us do it " . > > Just my thoughts. > > > > Pat RN, BSN, LP > > > > P.S. > > Paramedic before nursing school. > > > > > > > > > > > It seems to be the only solution that seems to make sense. I have > a > > > > > tremendous amount of respect for nurses (my mother is a nurse) and > > > most > > > nurses I know have a tremendous amount of respect for paramedics. > > > > > > I know I could not walk into an ER/ICU/Floor/OR/Dialysis Unit/ or > > any of the > > > many other areas nurses must work and be a good nurses (I couldn't > > > even be a > > > bad one!) but I think most reasonable nurses realize that they > > could not > > > jump on a truck and be a really good medic either. > > > > > > What we need to do here is re-direct our thoughts on this from the > > > > perspective of the patient. Who do you want to care for your > loved > > ones > > > when they are in the ICU or ER or when they are in a wreck on the > > highway? > > > Do you want someone that was given credit for experience rather > than > > > > > completing all of the requirements? I don't! > > > > > > Steve Dralle > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2001 Report Share Posted May 18, 2001 YOU GO BOY!!!!!!! TONY LAWRENCE L.P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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