Guest guest Posted May 8, 2001 Report Share Posted May 8, 2001 On Tue, 08 May 2001 14:11:48 -0500 BARBER writes: > However, I do feel that the minimum education (EMS) should be EMT-I . The Intermediate level would be a good work-in level because that is where most calls operate at.Perhaps a more stringent set of rules for Transition Personnel could be set, to include: EMT- Intermediate; 5 years ICU/CCU/ED experience or certification as a CEN, CFRN, or CCRN. " Leadership is action, not position " Larry RN ...and some other stuff These are my opinions only, and do not necessarily reflect those of any employers, organizations, family, or pets ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2001 Report Share Posted May 8, 2001 I've been an LPN for 10 years, an aide before that, and about to graduate with my BS in Nursing. I am also a Licensed Paramedic. I do not agree with RNs being able to challenge the paramedic exam just as I do not agree with paramedics being able to bridge to RN. The curriculum in paramedic school and nursing school is completely different, a different scope of practice all together. Therefore, I must wonder what your opinion is on paramedics bridging to RN since you are so opposed to RNs challenging the exam? Lola Dorsett-Reyna LPN/Paramedic (about to be RN/BSN, from scratch) > >Reply-To: >To: " egroups " < > >Subject: RN >Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 14:11:48 -0500 > >After reading numerous post on the subject of RN's becoming Paramedics, >I would ask where you were years ago when a few of us voted against >this. This is not the first time this has been discussed. I have never >felt that it should be allowed. However, I do feel that the minimum >education (EMS) should be EMT-I . From that point on if they can >challenge and pass the test so be it. Across the board challenge is out >of the question with me. The existing rule should remain in place. >Better yet do away with the existing rule and let other professions walk >down our career path if that is the direction they want to go. > > >Henry Barber AAS, LP (from scratch) > >EMS Subcommittee Member > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2001 Report Share Posted May 8, 2001 Howdy Larry! I still argue that ANY type of process is not appropriate because the credentials are not equivalent. They are clearly two different courses of study with different foci and a different knowledge base and skill set. I do, however, feel it is appropriate for individual programs, both nursing and paramedic, to build 'bridge' courses designed to acknowledge the similarities and work on the differences. I always hate it when this topic comes up because I get accused of bashing nurses (and I'm clear that you were not in any way suggesting this). Let me clearly say this is not my intent. I recognize and appreciate the knowledge, experience and value of nurses and other health care providers. For that matter, I'm married to a nurse. This does not, however, change my opinion on this issue. The two fields are sufficiently diverse that any type of challenge process, in either direction, is inappropriate. Take care, Jeff Re: RN > On Tue, 08 May 2001 14:11:48 -0500 BARBER writes: > > However, I do feel that the minimum education (EMS) should be EMT-I . > > The Intermediate level would be a good work-in level because that is > where most calls operate at.Perhaps a more stringent set of rules for > Transition Personnel could be set, to include: EMT- Intermediate; 5 years > ICU/CCU/ED experience or certification as a CEN, CFRN, or CCRN. > > " Leadership is action, not position " > Larry RN ...and some other stuff > These are my opinions only, and do not necessarily reflect those of any > employers, organizations, family, or pets Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2001 Report Share Posted May 8, 2001 Jeff, I have to agree with you, it's not that I am nurse bashing either, as I was also married to one, and we both felt the same way about this. As you said, these are two totally different areas when it comes to education and training. When the other medical professions start allowing certification/licensure by challenge, then EMS should look at it then, but not until. However, no other professional group is going to allow certification/licensure by challenge, and neither should EMS. Wayne Re: RN Howdy Larry! I still argue that ANY type of process is not appropriate because the credentials are not equivalent. They are clearly two different courses of study with different foci and a different knowledge base and skill set. I do, however, feel it is appropriate for individual programs, both nursing and paramedic, to build 'bridge' courses designed to acknowledge the similarities and work on the differences. I always hate it when this topic comes up because I get accused of bashing nurses (and I'm clear that you were not in any way suggesting this). Let me clearly say this is not my intent. I recognize and appreciate the knowledge, experience and value of nurses and other health care providers. For that matter, I'm married to a nurse. This does not, however, change my opinion on this issue. The two fields are sufficiently diverse that any type of challenge process, in either direction, is inappropriate. Take care, Jeff Re: RN > On Tue, 08 May 2001 14:11:48 -0500 BARBER writes: > > However, I do feel that the minimum education (EMS) should be EMT-I . > > The Intermediate level would be a good work-in level because that is > where most calls operate at.Perhaps a more stringent set of rules for > Transition Personnel could be set, to include: EMT- Intermediate; 5 years > ICU/CCU/ED experience or certification as a CEN, CFRN, or CCRN. > > " Leadership is action, not position " > Larry RN ...and some other stuff > These are my opinions only, and do not necessarily reflect those of any > employers, organizations, family, or pets Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 9, 2001 Report Share Posted May 9, 2001 On Tue, 8 May 2001 17:34:58 -0500 " Jeff Jarvis " writes: > I always hate it when this topic comes up because I get accused of > bashing nurses (and I'm clear that you were not in any way suggesting this). I don't see it as bashing. I see a reasonable expression of the differences. > The two fields are sufficiently diverse that any type of > challenge process, in either direction, is inappropriate. I was able to challenge some theory classes in nursing based on my EMS experience, but the clinical remained intact. I was a paramedic before a nurse and that effected the requirements TDH set for my challenge process. It can work both ways; given the right circumstances, individuals involved, phase of the moon, whether someone had their morning coffee... IOW, it has to be individualized if it is to be done. " Leadership is action, not position " Larry RN ...and some other stuff These are my opinions only, and do not necessarily reflect those of any employers, organizations, family, or pets ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 9, 2001 Report Share Posted May 9, 2001 The Paramedic curriculum is for Paramedics and the Nursing curriculum is for nurses. It's black and white. If I were on a jury where it was a bad intubations law suit and it was a RN that received their Paramedic without the proper curriculum and training, well the complainant wins. If they can't interpret an EKG ; bang they lose, and the list goes on, and on. So I figure once the public is educated the lawsuits will fly. Ron------Gone to Austin----Bye RN >Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 14:11:48 -0500 > >After reading numerous post on the subject of RN's becoming Paramedics, >I would ask where you were years ago when a few of us voted against >this. This is not the first time this has been discussed. I have never >felt that it should be allowed. However, I do feel that the minimum >education (EMS) should be EMT-I . From that point on if they can >challenge and pass the test so be it. Across the board challenge is out >of the question with me. The existing rule should remain in place. >Better yet do away with the existing rule and let other professions walk >down our career path if that is the direction they want to go. > > >Henry Barber AAS, LP (from scratch) > >EMS Subcommittee Member > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 9, 2001 Report Share Posted May 9, 2001 Howdy Lola! I know you asked this question to Henry, but since he's probably out fishing right now, I'll take a stab at it. I have no problem with paramedics bridging to RN. You imply that this opinion contradicts the opinion that nurses should challenge the paramedic exam. It does not. These are two distinct processes. The first involves a paramedic going to nursing school. While the program is abreviated, typically by one semester, based on their previous background, it is still going to nursing school. This I support. The concept of RNs challenging the paramedic exam is completely different. The nurse does NOT go to paramedic school. He/she fills out some paperwork, shows an ACLS card and a resume and is allowed to take the paramedic exam. This I do not support. I think it would be great to have an RN to paramedic bridge program to allow RNs to go through an abbreviated paramedic program, based on their previous knowledge. That is NOT what is being proposed by TDH. Take care, Jeff Re: RN > I've been an LPN for 10 years, an aide before that, and about to graduate > with my BS in Nursing. I am also a Licensed Paramedic. I do not agree with > RNs being able to challenge the paramedic exam just as I do not agree with > paramedics being able to bridge to RN. The curriculum in paramedic school > and nursing school is completely different, a different scope of practice > all together. Therefore, I must wonder what your opinion is on paramedics > bridging to RN since you are so opposed to RNs challenging the exam? > > Lola Dorsett-Reyna > LPN/Paramedic (about to be RN/BSN, from scratch) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 9, 2001 Report Share Posted May 9, 2001 Howdy Jeff, This is an academic question, but one that I think may support some of your argument for a " bridge " program between the nursing and paramedic professions. When the programs are offered through an academic setting for course credit, do previously taken classes (college credit obviously) apply for the new program being undertaken whether it's nursing or paramedic? For example, my wife (a nurse) and I both have already taken lots of A & P classes for our respective professions. If we were to enter a bridge program, would the credits for those A & P classes count to the new degree/certification? Likewise for other courses required by both degree plans? Could this lead to a new program that would allow someone to take the required additional classes to come out of school initially as a nurse/paramedic? (That's already being done in med schools where you can get your MD/MPH or MD/JD.) Something to think about. To: < > Date sent: Wed, 9 May 2001 09:22:01 -0500 Send reply to: Subject: Re: RN [ Double-click this line for list subscription options ] Howdy Lola! I know you asked this question to Henry, but since he's probably out fishing right now, I'll take a stab at it. I have no problem with paramedics bridging to RN. You imply that this opinion contradicts the opinion that nurses should challenge the paramedic exam. It does not. These are two distinct processes. The first involves a paramedic going to nursing school. While the program is abreviated, typically by one semester, based on their previous background, it is still going to nursing school. This I support. The concept of RNs challenging the paramedic exam is completely different. The nurse does NOT go to paramedic school. He/she fills out some paperwork, shows an ACLS card and a resume and is allowed to take the paramedic exam. This I do not support. I think it would be great to have an RN to paramedic bridge program to allow RNs to go through an abbreviated paramedic program, based on their previous knowledge. That is NOT what is being proposed by TDH. Take care, Jeff Re: RN > I've been an LPN for 10 years, an aide before that, and about to graduate > with my BS in Nursing. I am also a Licensed Paramedic. I do not agree with > RNs being able to challenge the paramedic exam just as I do not agree with > paramedics being able to bridge to RN. The curriculum in paramedic school > and nursing school is completely different, a different scope of practice > all together. Therefore, I must wonder what your opinion is on paramedics > bridging to RN since you are so opposed to RNs challenging the exam? > > Lola Dorsett-Reyna > LPN/Paramedic (about to be RN/BSN, from scratch) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 9, 2001 Report Share Posted May 9, 2001 Not fishing yettttttt but I do agree with your answer. Henry Jeff Jarvis wrote: > Howdy Lola! > > I know you asked this question to Henry, but since he's probably out > fishing > right now, I'll take a stab at it. > > I have no problem with paramedics bridging to RN. You imply that this > opinion contradicts the opinion that nurses should challenge the > paramedic > exam. It does not. These are two distinct processes. The first > involves a > paramedic going to nursing school. While the program is abreviated, > typically by one semester, based on their previous background, it is > still > going to nursing school. This I support. > > The concept of RNs challenging the paramedic exam is completely > different. > The nurse does NOT go to paramedic school. He/she fills out some > paperwork, > shows an ACLS card and a resume and is allowed to take the paramedic > exam. > This I do not support. > > I think it would be great to have an RN to paramedic bridge program to > allow > RNs to go through an abbreviated paramedic program, based on their > previous > knowledge. That is NOT what is being proposed by TDH. > > Take care, > Jeff > > Re: RN > > > > I've been an LPN for 10 years, an aide before that, and about to > graduate > > with my BS in Nursing. I am also a Licensed Paramedic. I do not > agree > with > > RNs being able to challenge the paramedic exam just as I do not > agree with > > paramedics being able to bridge to RN. The curriculum in paramedic > school > > and nursing school is completely different, a different scope of > practice > > all together. Therefore, I must wonder what your opinion is on > paramedics > > bridging to RN since you are so opposed to RNs challenging the exam? > > > > > Lola Dorsett-Reyna > > LPN/Paramedic (about to be RN/BSN, from scratch) > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 9, 2001 Report Share Posted May 9, 2001 Howdy Barry! Absolutely. We accept A & P (our only prereq) from any school. If someone wants to get our degree (we do NOT require the degreee), they can transfer courses in from other schools. One thing I want to be clear about (not that I think you didn't understand it to begin with, I just have a tendency to beat things to death). I'm not against nurses becoming paramedics. Hey, the more the marrier. We need more paramedics. I just think that if you want to be a paramedic, you should go to paramedic school like the rest of us. If you have some other background in the health sciences, great. Perhaps your paramedic school will let you 'clep out' of portions of the program. I feel strongly that this should be done at the program level, not the state level. Take care, Jeff Re: RN > > > > I've been an LPN for 10 years, an aide before that, and about to graduate > > with my BS in Nursing. I am also a Licensed Paramedic. I do not agree > with > > RNs being able to challenge the paramedic exam just as I do not agree with > > paramedics being able to bridge to RN. The curriculum in paramedic school > > and nursing school is completely different, a different scope of practice > > all together. Therefore, I must wonder what your opinion is on paramedics > > bridging to RN since you are so opposed to RNs challenging the exam? > > > > Lola Dorsett-Reyna > > LPN/Paramedic (about to be RN/BSN, from scratch) > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 9, 2001 Report Share Posted May 9, 2001 The answer to whether or not your previously taken courses will count depends on the program you're entering. For example, our nursing program has a 7 year limit on courses previously taken. My EMSP program does not. I have argued that the 7 year limit is illegal and contrary to CoBoard guidelines, but they still have it and probably will until somebody challenges them in court. Gene E. Gandy, JD, LP EMS Professions Program Tyler Junior College Tyler, TX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 9, 2001 Report Share Posted May 9, 2001 I'll jump in here since we've got a Paramedic/RN bridge cooking, and I evaluate RNs who want to challenge the Paramedic exam. I give an evaluation test which basically tests all the paramedic curriculum areas. Based upon that I make recommendations for what the RN would need to do to be up to par in the Paramedic program. RNs can then try for credit by examination. Demonstration of skills competencies is also required. My experience has been that RNs can successfully challenge pharmacology, medical emergencies, and special pops. They usually need additional work in airway management, patient assessment (which, as you know, is quite different from nursing assessment), cardiology, trauma management, EMS operations, and assessment based management. Most really need to take the EMT-Basic course and do the skills, scenario practice, and vehicle extrication. We allow them a second chance at the exams after remediation. Some nurses will, of course, do well in areas they are familiar with; for example, a CVICU nurse will usually not need any additional cardiology, although some really do. Some are very good at the meds admin aspect of it but are not up to par on 12-lead and dysrhythmia interpretation because they really don't do it that much from scratch as we do. Most of the nurses who want to be Paramedics have been eager to learn these things, and some actually complete the entire program. One ICU nurse did just that although he easily could have tested out of many of the courses. He is graduating with honors from the Paramedic program top of his class. I think he will tell you that the Paramedic curriculum was uniquely different from nursing and that his experience in Paramedic school will make him a much better nurse. Conversely, I think nursing school would help most Paramedics, particularly those interested in industrial medicine, offshore medicine, and hospital jobs. Also, there will be more opportunity for Critical Care Transport Paramedics in the future as hospitals look for alternatives to sending RNs on trips with patients. Bottom line: Neither Paramedics nor RNs are educated to walk in and sit for the other discipline's licensing examinations without some transition courses. Gene E. Gandy, JD, LP EMS Professions Program Tyler Junior College Tyler, TX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2001 Report Share Posted May 10, 2001 I have no problem with bridging either guys, as long as it's available to both sides and I too disagree with a direct challenge. I think you misunderstood my point. Take Care! >From: CBlum26666@... >Reply-To: >To: >Subject: Re: RN >Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 09:55:05 EDT > >Lola, > >Regarding " bridging " !!! If a bridge course is taken to complete the >requirements, then I personally see no problem with it. One of thei first >courses you take in a bridge course is " introduction to nursing practice >and >theory, or transition to nursing practice " ..........which is designed to >change the way you think and work. The nursing bridge courses are designed >to fill in the gaps that paramedics have regarding long term, care, and the >areas which we don't deal with regularly. I personally se no problem with >bridge courses, for either RN to EMT-P, or vice versa. The whole concept >is >that it is a different thought process, a different set of skills, and a >different mission in it self. If an RN wants to take a 3 semester bridge >course from RN to Paramedic, just like Paramedics take a 3 semester bridge >course from Paramedic to RN, then so be it. I just object to a direct >challenge. Take care. > > Blum, EMT-P > >P.S. I just read a recent survey in a nursing journal...can't remember the >name....however, it dealt with transition programs and Paramedic to RN >transition. They followed a large portion of the people coming out of >these >programs, and the surveyed people they now work with. The finding was that >the Paramedics who completed a transition course to RN and then went to >work >in Acute care areas, not only provided much better, more consistent care to >their patients, but they also showed more compassion towards their >patients, >and remained much more calm during crisis situations. Just a thought. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2001 Report Share Posted May 10, 2001 Most schools will allow credit for examination. I think that's fair. If you can pass the exam, then you shouldn't have to retake the course. If you can't, then you probably do need to retake it. Many applicants don't know you can apply for credit by examination, and most people in counseling don't tell them. E. Gandy, JD, LP EMS Professions Program Tyler Junior College Tyler, TX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2001 Report Share Posted May 10, 2001 land has a RN to Paramedic Bridge program. Why doesn't someone contact MIEMSS to see if they can get some information on this. The RN to Paramedic Bridge was considered first and then they were going to do the Paramedic to RN Bridge however this never panned out. I think the Nurses Association pi--ed and moaned about it and the Paramedic to RN bridge was forgotten about. The Nurses Association has power in numbers. If we could stand together as E.M.S. providers we could have power also. With this so called nursing shortage, the time is now to work on the Paramedic to RN Bridge. Larry On Wed, 9 May 2001 09:22:01 -0500 " Jeff Jarvis " writes: > Howdy Lola! > > I know you asked this question to Henry, but since he's probably out > fishing > right now, I'll take a stab at it. > > I have no problem with paramedics bridging to RN. You imply that > this > opinion contradicts the opinion that nurses should challenge the > paramedic > exam. It does not. These are two distinct processes. The first > involves a > paramedic going to nursing school. While the program is abreviated, > typically by one semester, based on their previous background, it is > still > going to nursing school. This I support. > > The concept of RNs challenging the paramedic exam is completely > different. > The nurse does NOT go to paramedic school. He/she fills out some > paperwork, > shows an ACLS card and a resume and is allowed to take the paramedic > exam. > This I do not support. > > I think it would be great to have an RN to paramedic bridge program > to allow > RNs to go through an abbreviated paramedic program, based on their > previous > knowledge. That is NOT what is being proposed by TDH. > > Take care, > Jeff > > Re: RN > > > > I've been an LPN for 10 years, an aide before that, and about to > graduate > > with my BS in Nursing. I am also a Licensed Paramedic. I do not > agree > with > > RNs being able to challenge the paramedic exam just as I do not > agree with > > paramedics being able to bridge to RN. The curriculum in > paramedic school > > and nursing school is completely different, a different scope of > practice > > all together. Therefore, I must wonder what your opinion is on > paramedics > > bridging to RN since you are so opposed to RNs challenging the > exam? > > > > Lola Dorsett-Reyna > > LPN/Paramedic (about to be RN/BSN, from scratch) > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2001 Report Share Posted May 10, 2001 .... and the congregation said.... " A-----MEN! " Bro. Tate, LP Tyler, Texas --- wegandy@... wrote: > I'll jump in here since we've got a Paramedic/RN > bridge cooking, and I > evaluate RNs who want to challenge the Paramedic > exam. > > I give an evaluation test which basically tests all > the paramedic curriculum > areas. Based upon that I make recommendations for > what the RN would need to > do to be up to par in the Paramedic program. RNs > can then try for credit by > examination. Demonstration of skills competencies > is also required. > > My experience has been that RNs can successfully > challenge pharmacology, > medical emergencies, and special pops. They usually > need additional work in > airway management, patient assessment (which, as you > know, is quite different > from nursing assessment), cardiology, trauma > management, EMS operations, and > assessment based management. > > Most really need to take the EMT-Basic course and do > the skills, scenario > practice, and vehicle extrication. > > We allow them a second chance at the exams after > remediation. > > Some nurses will, of course, do well in areas they > are familiar with; for > example, a CVICU nurse will usually not need any > additional cardiology, > although some really do. Some are very good at the > meds admin aspect of it > but are not up to par on 12-lead and dysrhythmia > interpretation because they > really don't do it that much from scratch as we do. > > > Most of the nurses who want to be Paramedics have > been eager to learn these > things, and some actually complete the entire > program. One ICU nurse did > just that although he easily could have tested out > of many of the courses. > He is graduating with honors from the Paramedic > program top of his class. I > think he will tell you that the Paramedic curriculum > was uniquely different > from nursing and that his experience in Paramedic > school will make him a much > better nurse. > > Conversely, I think nursing school would help most > Paramedics, particularly > those interested in industrial medicine, offshore > medicine, and hospital > jobs. Also, there will be more opportunity for > Critical Care Transport > Paramedics in the future as hospitals look for > alternatives to sending RNs on > trips with patients. > > Bottom line: Neither Paramedics nor RNs are > educated to walk in and sit for > the other discipline's licensing examinations > without some transition courses. > > Gene > > E. Gandy, JD, LP > EMS Professions Program > Tyler Junior College > Tyler, TX > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > ===== " ....under his wings you will find refuge; his faithfulness will be your shield and rampart. " - Psalm 91:4 __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2001 Report Share Posted May 10, 2001 I looked into the Physcian Assistant program at the University of land, Eastern Shore and the prerequisites had to be no more than 7 years old. Does that mean that my college degree is worthless after 7 years????? Larry Dodd On Thu, 10 May 2001 02:01:51 EDT wegandy@... writes: > The answer to whether or not your previously taken courses will count > depends > on the program you're entering. For example, our nursing program > has a 7 > year limit on courses previously taken. My EMSP program does not. > I have > argued that the 7 year limit is illegal and contrary to CoBoard > guidelines, > but they still have it and probably will until somebody challenges > them in > court. > > Gene > > E. Gandy, JD, LP > EMS Professions Program > Tyler Junior College > Tyler, TX > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2001 Report Share Posted May 10, 2001 Yea, you have to go back and get it again after 7 yrs......LOL Did they forget to tell you that?? Re: RN I looked into the Physcian Assistant program at the University of land, Eastern Shore and the prerequisites had to be no more than 7 years old. Does that mean that my college degree is worthless after 7 years????? Larry Dodd On Thu, 10 May 2001 02:01:51 EDT wegandy@... writes: > The answer to whether or not your previously taken courses will count > depends > on the program you're entering. For example, our nursing program > has a 7 > year limit on courses previously taken. My EMSP program does not. > I have > argued that the 7 year limit is illegal and contrary to CoBoard > guidelines, > but they still have it and probably will until somebody challenges > them in > court. > > Gene > > E. Gandy, JD, LP > EMS Professions Program > Tyler Junior College > Tyler, TX > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2001 Report Share Posted May 10, 2001 Larry, That's land.... Don't you know them boys up north have their own way of doing things? Tater --- lwd7734@... wrote: > I looked into the Physcian Assistant program at the > University of > land, Eastern Shore and the prerequisites had to > be no more than 7 > years old. Does that mean that my college degree is > worthless after 7 > years????? > > Larry Dodd > > On Thu, 10 May 2001 02:01:51 EDT wegandy@... > writes: > > The answer to whether or not your previously taken > courses will count > > depends > > on the program you're entering. For example, our > nursing program > > has a 7 > > year limit on courses previously taken. My EMSP > program does not. > > I have > > argued that the 7 year limit is illegal and > contrary to CoBoard > > guidelines, > > but they still have it and probably will until > somebody challenges > > them in > > court. > > > > Gene > > > > E. Gandy, JD, LP > > EMS Professions Program > > Tyler Junior College > > Tyler, TX > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2001 Report Share Posted May 11, 2001 Howdy Lola! I think most nurses who are open-minded about this (like you are) will recognize the inherent fairness of saying that to get the other credential, you must do a bridge program. Here is what I saw yesterday that I'm frustrated about. The well organized group of nurses who came to the meeting in support of the proposed challenge process (MUCH better organized than the few paramedics who came to oppose it, I admit with admiration) repeatedly made the claim that this was not, in fact, a challenge process. They implied that it was really a bridge program. This is NOT A BRIDGE PROGRAM! TDH says they will have a list of criteria the nurse must have in order to take the exam. If they don't have this, they must go find a school that will give it to them. Then they take the exam. Their criteria are basically a set of skills and some ER or ICU experience. It is NOT the complete list of didactic, psychomotor and affective competencies (well over 1,000) that paramedics must master as described in the National Standard Curriculum. This approach implies that they competence can be acquired by osmosis. If you are in an environment long enough, then clearly you must have mastered all of the skills needed to work in that environment. There obviously is no need to actually measure whether those skills are in place. Please! Has anyone met a paramedic with 25 years of experience who couldn't paramedic his way out of a paper bag? Has anyone met a nurse with 25 years experience who couldn't nurse his way out of the same bag? EXPERIENCE DOES NOT EQUAL COMPETENCE. Any process that tries to equate the two is nothing more than a challenge process. It is most certainly NOT a bridge program. Thanks, Lola for letting me use your post to voice my frustrations. Take care, Jeff Re: RN > >Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 05:46:34 -0500 > > > >Lola, > > > >Hrm, since all of the 'bridge' programs I have seen require the SAME > >nursing > >courses as the RN 'from scratch' I see no problem with it. Most > >'bridge' courses are basically designed to expand on what the Paramedic can > >already do (like take BP's, assess patients, give medicines) instead of > >dwelling on them the way you have to with the 'scratch' RN. If an RN wants > >to take a 'bridge' course that contains all of the Paramedic material (with > >emphasis on such things as intubation, extrication, and scene safety and > >de-emphasis on assessment and V/S), I would have no problem with that > >either. > > > >By following your train of thought, the LPN bridge programs should not > >exist > >either. I get the feeling that this is going to lead to the Paramedics can > >do everything RN's can do. No they can't. Yes they can. No they can't, > >argument. > > > >Oh, and congratulations on graduating from the BSN program. > > > > Webb, LP > >trying to take the time to go to RN school Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2001 Report Share Posted May 11, 2001 Jeff is absolutely correct on this one. Experience does not equal competence. We have undertaken the evaluation process and have found that our evaluation instrument clearly shows nurses the areas they need additional knowledge and experience in. Most need to take the EMT-Basic program, and most also need EMS Operations, Trauma Management, Cardiology, Introduction to Advanced Practice, Advanced Airway and Assessment, and usually some other stuff. Their education and experience may be able to get them through Pharm, and they've had A & P and Psych. The biggest problem is adjusting the mindset from in-hospital to prehospital thinking. Street sense only comes with being on the street. So, while there are areas of overlap, the two disciplines are essentially and fundamentally different. It will not be satisfactory for nurses to challenge Paramedic nor Paramedics to challenge Nursing. Bridge courses can be designed, however, and it should not be necessary for the entire curriculum to be taken by either. Gene E. Gandy, JD, LP EMS Professions Program Tyler Junior College Tyler, TX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2001 Report Share Posted May 11, 2001 Jeff, By any chance was the list of requirements provided during the meeting? If it's just skills and experience like you say, that is not a bridge program. I do agree that anyone that wants to be a paramedic in Texas, should be required to master the NSC just like everyone else has to. Other wish, why even bother with it. Let's just go back to the 90 day patch factories and hope for the best. The requirements should be EMT-Basic to start with, then from there develop your bridge program for nursing, but make it required that they must follow the NSC while going through the program, and not some watered down version. This proves that when nurses want something, they know how to put things in their favor. EMS, it's time that we did the same thing. Nursing wants to be able to walk in and say, I'm a RN, now I want a paramedic certification/licensure. They should only be entitled to the certification if they have complete the REQUIRED training program and NOT BEFORE. PERIOD!!! So why don't they want the colleges to evaluate their needs? Because most would have to go back and re-take some classes? Do they think that TDH will be softer on them, probably so. If we are going to start handing out paramedic certifications to every Tom, Dick and Harry, then why not ask the BNS to give us our licenses. One big mess.... Wayne Re: RN Howdy Lola! I think most nurses who are open-minded about this (like you are) will recognize the inherent fairness of saying that to get the other credential, you must do a bridge program. Here is what I saw yesterday that I'm frustrated about. The well organized group of nurses who came to the meeting in support of the proposed challenge process (MUCH better organized than the few paramedics who came to oppose it, I admit with admiration) repeatedly made the claim that this was not, in fact, a challenge process. They implied that it was really a bridge program. This is NOT A BRIDGE PROGRAM! TDH says they will have a list of criteria the nurse must have in order to take the exam. If they don't have this, they must go find a school that will give it to them. Then they take the exam. Their criteria are basically a set of skills and some ER or ICU experience. It is NOT the complete list of didactic, psychomotor and affective competencies (well over 1,000) that paramedics must master as described in the National Standard Curriculum. This approach implies that they competence can be acquired by osmosis. If you are in an environment long enough, then clearly you must have mastered all of the skills needed to work in that environment. There obviously is no need to actually measure whether those skills are in place. Please! Has anyone met a paramedic with 25 years of experience who couldn't paramedic his way out of a paper bag? Has anyone met a nurse with 25 years experience who couldn't nurse his way out of the same bag? EXPERIENCE DOES NOT EQUAL COMPETENCE. Any process that tries to equate the two is nothing more than a challenge process. It is most certainly NOT a bridge program. Thanks, Lola for letting me use your post to voice my frustrations. Take care, Jeff Re: RN > >Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 05:46:34 -0500 > > > >Lola, > > > >Hrm, since all of the 'bridge' programs I have seen require the SAME > >nursing > >courses as the RN 'from scratch' I see no problem with it. Most > >'bridge' courses are basically designed to expand on what the Paramedic can > >already do (like take BP's, assess patients, give medicines) instead of > >dwelling on them the way you have to with the 'scratch' RN. If an RN wants > >to take a 'bridge' course that contains all of the Paramedic material (with > >emphasis on such things as intubation, extrication, and scene safety and > >de-emphasis on assessment and V/S), I would have no problem with that > >either. > > > >By following your train of thought, the LPN bridge programs should not > >exist > >either. I get the feeling that this is going to lead to the Paramedics can > >do everything RN's can do. No they can't. Yes they can. No they can't, > >argument. > > > >Oh, and congratulations on graduating from the BSN program. > > > > Webb, LP > >trying to take the time to go to RN school Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2001 Report Share Posted May 11, 2001 Wayne, and others-- While agree that this is " one big mess " , I think I want to make a statement of which I don't have any real source to back me up. Sheer speculation... Of the RN's who currently " challenge " (or whatever the word is being used-- " bridge " , whatever) the EMT-P test, I would venture to say that the vast majority would be ER/trauma nurses. Again, no real statistical figures to back me up. Assuming the ER nurses are the majority here, I would venture to say that most of them have ACLS, perhaps (but maybe not) BTLS or its equivalent. As well, RN's in the ER are well aware of the need and importance of spinal immobilization (for example) in those cases where it is necessary. I guess what I am figuring is that most ER nurses know this stuff already. As well, what they don't know, no school can adequately prepare one for. For example, the MVA with 3 pin-ins. You do what you what you can until the FD can cut your patients out. That is what on-the-job training does for EMS (and nursing). It acclimates you and teaches the ins and outs. ly, when I was a green (and I do mean GREEN) paramedic, I don't know what the heck I would have done had I rolled up on a major scene as a paramedic in-charge. This is why I was partnered with a preceptor who taught me the ropes. Hell! My first " not breathing, no pulse call " I got to the house to find that this woman had an extensive cancer Hx and was expected to die. What was I, the green paramedic, going to do? Intubate, Defibrillate, cardio-pulmonary resuscitate-- just like I was taught to do in EMT-P class. Not the thing to do here. Luckily, my seasoned partner pulled back on my reins and said " Whoa, boy! " So, even though I had been through the class and did quite well, I was still no where ready to being on my own. And I would suspect that the majority of nurses who become " overnight " paramedics would be the same way that I was when I first became a real, from scratch EMT-P. I can say that I have been on BOTH sides of the tracks. I have been a nurse and a paramedic. I can relate to both sides. Knowing what I know now, I can see nurses, with some sort of preceptorship, making good paramedics after passing the state test. As far as paramedics taking the NCLEX-RN after paramedic school... bad idea! read on... The final point that I wish to make is this... As a nurse, who bridged to nursing through a distance education course, I can tell you that I had NO IDEA how challenging being a nurse would be. Search the internet for sample NCLEX-RN test questions and get a feel for it yourself. Or click here for a web page with some questions. http://www.findarticles.com/m3231/4_30/61756582/p1/article.jhtml try this one: http://www.rnexpress.com/Sample2/example_1.asp See just how diverse the training and requirements for RN's are. I thought that I just about knew " it all " as a paramedic and I could walk right in and be a super-nurse. Honestly though, I was VERY surprised at what the ICU nurses and ER nurses know with respect to nursing vs. EMS. I was intimidated and very humbled. I felt that I needed to work twice as hard because I was so ill-prepared, as a paramedic, to be a nurse. This statement come from someone who earned a 4.0 GPA in my nursing studies-- transcript available upon request. So, as maddening as it is for nurses to be overnight paramedics, I think that seasoned (even 1 year) nurses are pretty prepared for the task assuming they have ACLS and a preceptorship period working side-by-side with another EMT-P. As well, I don't think that what is good for the goose here is necessarily good for the gander. In other words, I am sure that I will never see the day when EMT-P's will be allowed to " challenge " the NCLEX-RN. To me, there are so many similarities that ER nurses share with paramedics. But there are far too many gaps in the education of paramedics to be ready for nursing after paramedic school. If and when you decide to be a nurse and go to school for it, you will understand what I mean. I am sure that I just opened a helluva can of worms... again! I am not looking for a flaming contest-- just an open and honest exchange of ideas and dialogue. From one who hath been here and been there, Brad Re: RN > > >Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 05:46:34 -0500 > > > > > >Lola, > > > > > >Hrm, since all of the 'bridge' programs I have seen require the SAME > > >nursing > > >courses as the RN 'from scratch' I see no problem with it. Most > > >'bridge' courses are basically designed to expand on what the Paramedic > can > > >already do (like take BP's, assess patients, give medicines) instead of > > >dwelling on them the way you have to with the 'scratch' RN. If an RN > wants > > >to take a 'bridge' course that contains all of the Paramedic material > (with > > >emphasis on such things as intubation, extrication, and scene safety and > > >de-emphasis on assessment and V/S), I would have no problem with that > > >either. > > > > > >By following your train of thought, the LPN bridge programs should not > > >exist > > >either. I get the feeling that this is going to lead to the Paramedics > can > > >do everything RN's can do. No they can't. Yes they can. No they can't, > > >argument. > > > > > >Oh, and congratulations on graduating from the BSN program. > > > > > > Webb, LP > > >trying to take the time to go to RN school > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2001 Report Share Posted May 12, 2001 I wouldn't consider myself a northerner, but looking up from Texas I can understand. Don't you know the South starts in land??? We were going to secede from the Union until Lincoln sent his troops in to occupy the state and lock up the state legislature. He knew we would secede with our sister state, Virginia. Larry :-) On Thu, 10 May 2001 20:07:59 -0700 (PDT) " E. Tate " writes: > Larry, > > That's land.... Don't you know them boys up north > have their own way of doing things? > > > Tater > > > > --- lwd7734@... wrote: > > I looked into the Physcian Assistant program at the > > University of > > land, Eastern Shore and the prerequisites had to > > be no more than 7 > > years old. Does that mean that my college degree is > > worthless after 7 > > years????? > > > > Larry Dodd > > > > On Thu, 10 May 2001 02:01:51 EDT wegandy@... > > writes: > > > The answer to whether or not your previously taken > > courses will count > > > depends > > > on the program you're entering. For example, our > > nursing program > > > has a 7 > > > year limit on courses previously taken. My EMSP > > program does not. > > > I have > > > argued that the 7 year limit is illegal and > > contrary to CoBoard > > > guidelines, > > > but they still have it and probably will until > > somebody challenges > > > them in > > > court. > > > > > > Gene > > > > > > E. Gandy, JD, LP > > > EMS Professions Program > > > Tyler Junior College > > > Tyler, TX > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > > removed] > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 15, 2001 Report Share Posted May 15, 2001 It would be really nice for some of the RN / LP's out there that actually attended both courses to tell us more about what they think. I would also like to see the colleges taking input from these same people. They are the only ones that can shed light on this subject from the inside and assist in developing the bridge programs that should be there. E. Tate, LP Tyler, Texas --- wegandy@... wrote: > Jeff is absolutely correct on this one. Experience > does not equal > competence. > > We have undertaken the evaluation process and have > found that our evaluation > instrument clearly shows nurses the areas they need > additional knowledge and > experience in. Most need to take the EMT-Basic > program, and most also need > EMS Operations, Trauma Management, Cardiology, > Introduction to Advanced > Practice, Advanced Airway and Assessment, and > usually some other stuff. > Their education and experience may be able to get > them through Pharm, and > they've had A & P and Psych. > > The biggest problem is adjusting the mindset from > in-hospital to prehospital > thinking. Street sense only comes with being on the > street. > > So, while there are areas of overlap, the two > disciplines are essentially and > fundamentally different. It will not be > satisfactory for nurses to challenge > Paramedic nor Paramedics to challenge Nursing. > Bridge courses can be > designed, however, and it should not be necessary > for the entire curriculum > to be taken by either. > > Gene > > E. Gandy, JD, LP > EMS Professions Program > Tyler Junior College > Tyler, TX > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > ===== You can make a difference! CITIZENS UNITE! Join EMSAT! http://www.emsatoftx.com/ " ....under his wings you will find refuge; his faithfulness will be your shield and rampart. " - Psalm 91:4 __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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