Guest guest Posted June 2, 1999 Report Share Posted June 2, 1999 Apple, Good grief! That guy is scary.........and I bet you get other letters at the Deprogramming Site like it. I sure hope you keep yourself safe, hope there is no way they can track you down! What on earth would we do without our Apple <G>! Your buddy, Jean ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 1999 Report Share Posted June 2, 1999 If this person is an investigator of some sort I would suggest you turn them in to some regulatory agency and have their license revoked. I am enraged by her comments. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 1999 Report Share Posted June 2, 1999 i love how stepers always attack thier critics by implying that thier problem is drinking; " Been to the bar yet? " But even worse is how they claim they are concerned with sobriety and yet incourage anyone who disagrees to drink, so they may get to that special humble place stepers feel is equal to spirtuality or sobriety. " Meanwhile, bourbon might take care of that self-rightous chip on your shoulder. So will a fourth step. " that statement is more school yard jinx than the hard learned wisdom the writer and stepers belive it is. thats jsut plain sick, and so common a response its predictable.there ios nothing humble or spiritual about wishing harm onto someone in order to justify your own belief system. quite the contrary, its as arrogance and ignornace run rampant. dave ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 1999 Report Share Posted June 2, 1999 Apple, i wish you had a reader reply area on youir site, i would love to have had my reply to the " wacko " posted somewhere that sick bastard could read it. dave Dave wrote: > > i love how stepers always attack thier critics by implying that thier > problem is drinking; " Been to the bar yet? " > > But even worse is how they claim they are concerned with sobriety and > yet incourage anyone who disagrees to drink, so they may get to that > special humble place stepers feel is equal to spirtuality or sobriety. > > " Meanwhile, bourbon might take care of that self-rightous chip on your > shoulder. So will a fourth step. " > > that statement is more school yard jinx than the hard learned wisdom the > writer and stepers belive it is. > > thats jsut plain sick, and so common a response its predictable.there > ios nothing humble or spiritual about wishing harm onto someone in order > to justify your own belief system. quite the contrary, its as arrogance > and ignornace run rampant. > > dave > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > eGroups Spotlight: > " All Things US Navy " - US Naval discussion about navy people, > veterans, places, events, history, and current events. > http://clickhere./click/184 > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 1999 Report Share Posted June 2, 1999 At 10:18 PM 6/2/99 -0000, you wrote: >Here's a letter I got today from a whacko. (S)he had written earlier offering me legal assistance. Pretty funny huh? >Apple > >Been to the bar yet? Or are you still parading around on your >self-rightous jack-ass? No luck sending me any information on your >experience that would back up your claims to assult yet, huh? Well, I >be on the look out. So are my colleagues. I forwarded your e-mail to >some investigators have taken an interest. Like I said, I will be >happy to investigate any kind of assult or illegal activity, whether it >happened at the AA meeting or outside of it. That is my job and it is >what I do for a living. I just need information with which to get >started. Just remember, making a false claim of sexual assult can be >prosecuted as a Class 2 felony, if the attorney so wishes. And, if it >really did happen, your refusal to cooporate with authorities could be >considered aiding and abedding, especially if an assult by the same man >happens to another women. However, these are things left up to the >prosecuting attorney in your area. My job is to investigate and make >suggestions to appropriate authorities. Your are right, we are all >entitled to our own voice (including me), but, in your case, think >before you get yourself into trouble with it. Well, whenever your >ready to fess up...Meanwhile, bourbon might take care of that >self-rightous chip on your shoulder. So will a fourth step. Funny how somepeople like to offer their help, isn't it. Like you'd instinctively recognize that this person is mentally well and can offer real help to vulnerable people... And I just loved the " aiding and abedding " . Freudian slip maybe. There a dair amount of aiding and abedding going on in those loving, caring 12 step programs. Joe Berenbaum ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 1999 Report Share Posted June 2, 1999 At 11:36 PM 6/2/99 +0000, you wrote: I can't believe my spelling sometimes. >There a dair amount of aiding and abedding >going on in those loving, caring 12 step programs. was supposed to be >There's a fair amount of aiding and abedding >going on in those loving, caring 12 step programs. It works better when I get it right first time, I realise this. I blame my Logitech radio keyboard. Joe Berenbaum ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 1999 Report Share Posted June 2, 1999 Letter from a wacko >Here's a letter I got today from a whacko. (S)he had written earlier offering me legal assistance. Pretty funny huh? >Apple > >Been to the bar yet? Or are you still parading around on your >self-rightous jack-ass? No luck sending me any information on your >experience that would back up your claims to assult yet, huh? Well, I >be on the look out. So are my colleagues. I forwarded your e-mail to >some investigators have taken an interest. Like I said, I will be >happy to investigate any kind of assult or illegal activity, whether it >happened at the AA meeting or outside of it. That is my job and it is >what I do for a living. I just need information with which to get >started. Just remember, making a false claim of sexual assult can be >prosecuted as a Class 2 felony, if the attorney so wishes. And, if it >really did happen, your refusal to cooporate with authorities could be >considered aiding and abedding, especially if an assult by the same man >happens to another women. However, these are things left up to the >prosecuting attorney in your area. My job is to investigate and make >suggestions to appropriate authorities. Your are right, we are all >entitled to our own voice (including me), but, in your case, think >before you get yourself into trouble with it. Well, whenever your >ready to fess up...Meanwhile, bourbon might take care of that >self-rightous chip on your shoulder. So will a fourth step. > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ Huh??? Say what??? Jan ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 1999 Report Share Posted June 2, 1999 At 10:18 PM 6/2/99 -0000, AppleDTP@... wrote: >Here's a letter I got today from a whacko. (S)he had written earlier offering me legal assistance. Pretty funny huh? >Apple > >Been to the bar yet? Or are you still parading around on your >self-rightous jack-ass? No luck sending me any information on your >before you get yourself into trouble with it. Well, whenever your >ready to fess up...Meanwhile, bourbon might take care of that >self-rightous chip on your shoulder. So will a fourth step. Oh, yes, THIS is what they mean by " The Love Of The Program " . ----- <http://listen.to/benbradley> New and Improved! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 1999 Report Share Posted June 2, 1999 Man, oh man, Apple! What graveyard did this guy crawl out of. Freedom of speech anyone? Or perhaps he took it as freedom of speach and took to the podium. Who died and made him God? We do have a constitution. What a glut! Also so stupid. How could anyone, dispite their occult powers, investigate everything that happens outside of AA meetings? Seeing all, knowing all he goes forth blindfold securely embedded in his forehead. Keep up the excellent work. We thank you for it. Crazily mystified by ignorance perpetuated, Carol At 10:18 PM 6/2/99 -0000, you wrote: >Here's a letter I got today from a whacko. (S)he had written earlier offering me legal assistance. Pretty funny huh? >Apple > >Been to the bar yet? Or are you still parading around on your >self-rightous jack-ass? No luck sending me any information on your >experience that would back up your claims to assult yet, huh? Well, I >be on the look out. So are my colleagues. I forwarded your e-mail to >some investigators have taken an interest. Like I said, I will be >happy to investigate any kind of assult or illegal activity, whether it >happened at the AA meeting or outside of it. That is my job and it is >what I do for a living. I just need information with which to get >started. Just remember, making a false claim of sexual assult can be >prosecuted as a Class 2 felony, if the attorney so wishes. And, if it >really did happen, your refusal to cooporate with authorities could be >considered aiding and abedding, especially if an assult by the same man >happens to another women. However, these are things left up to the >prosecuting attorney in your area. My job is to investigate and make >suggestions to appropriate authorities. Your are right, we are all >entitled to our own voice (including me), but, in your case, think >before you get yourself into trouble with it. Well, whenever your >ready to fess up...Meanwhile, bourbon might take care of that >self-rightous chip on your shoulder. So will a fourth step. > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Make the News Come to you! >FREE email newsletters sent directly to your in-box >USAToday, Forbes, Wired, and more. Sign-up NOW! >http://clickhere./click/316 > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > > > > --- Up With People! Visit: Information on recovery alternatives at Http:\\www.BCRecovernet.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 1999 Report Share Posted June 2, 1999 Hi Dave: I think I'm going to pass on posting the wacko letter alltogether. I don't want the site to turn to a hate site, although it already dangles one toe in that pool. I will be editing some of the writing (my own only) to try to reflect logic and reason instead of emotion. I think it will be more effective. That's what made Ken Ragge's book so effective. It's easy to flip the bird at AA, but as others have told me, what AA fears most is razor sharp logic. Apple Original Article: /group/12-step-free/?start=4262 > Apple, i wish you had a reader reply area on youir site, i would love to > have had my reply to the " wacko " posted somewhere that sick bastard > could read it. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 1999 Report Share Posted June 2, 1999 At 02:36 AM 6/3/99 -0000, AppleDTP@... wrote: >Hi Dave: >I think I'm going to pass on posting the wacko letter alltogether. >It's easy to flip the bird at AA, but as others have told me, what AA >fears most is razor sharp logic. How very true, people fear most what they least understand. >Apple ----- <http://listen.to/benbradley> New and Improved! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 1999 Report Share Posted June 3, 1999 AppleDTP@... writes: > will be editing some of the writing (my own only) to try to reflect logic > and reason instead of emotion. I think it will be more effective. That's what > made Ken Ragge's book so effective. It's easy to flip the bird at AA, but as > others have told me, what AA fears most is razor sharp logic. I think this a particularly good idea, Apple, and applaud you for the efforts. I was always taught that one can only have a " fight " if there are two parties involved. If one party rants and raves and foams at the mouth while the other calmly explains and refuses to be baited, which one gains the most credibility? Allowing people to express their feelings is a valuable service, but so is a decision to keep one's self above the fray. By refusing to lower yourself to the level of your opponents in spite of repeated provocation, I believe the message you are presenting will be that much more stronger. Respectfully, ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 1999 Report Share Posted June 3, 1999 That letter is delusional and paranoid - whoever wrote it is just very, very mixed up. It's pathetic and laughable. Oh, well -- it takes all kinds. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 1999 Report Share Posted June 3, 1999 Hi Apple I'll go for the comment below my mail. Protect your security and strike back. Show him that you like to fight. You have a right to feel intimidated, and there must be a law against that. Maybe you could trace him, and then publish his name and address. Don't know if this option exists, only a suggestion. He's probably like those telephone sex intimidators, ugly, impotent and with brains like shrunken peanuts. Bjørn MARDINOYES@... wrote: > > If this person is an investigator of some sort I would suggest you turn them in to some regulatory agency and have their license revoked. I am enraged by her comments. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > [click here] > Click Here! > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > www. - Simplifying group communications ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 1999 Report Share Posted June 3, 1999 A very revolting threatening letter. Wackos often seem to threaten legal action. P. > Here's a letter I got today from a whacko. (S)he had written earlier offering me legal assistance. Pretty funny huh? > Apple > > Been to the bar yet? Or are you still parading around on your > self-rightous jack-ass? No luck sending me any information on your > experience that would back up your claims to assult yet, huh? Well, I > be on the look out. So are my colleagues. I forwarded your e-mail to > some investigators have taken an interest. Like I said, I will be > happy to investigate any kind of assult or illegal activity, whether it > happened at the AA meeting or outside of it. That is my job and it is > what I do for a living. I just need information with which to get > started. Just remember, making a false claim of sexual assult can be > prosecuted as a Class 2 felony, if the attorney so wishes. And, if it > really did happen, your refusal to cooporate with authorities could be > considered aiding and abedding, especially if an assult by the same man > happens to another women. However, these are things left up to the > prosecuting attorney in your area. My job is to investigate and make > suggestions to appropriate authorities. Your are right, we are all > entitled to our own voice (including me), but, in your case, think > before you get yourself into trouble with it. Well, whenever your > ready to fess up...Meanwhile, bourbon might take care of that > self-rightous chip on your shoulder. So will a fourth step. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Make the News Come to you! > FREE email newsletters sent directly to your in-box > USAToday, Forbes, Wired, and more. Sign-up NOW! > http://clickhere./click/316 > > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > Pete Watts Owner PSY-PHAR Psychology/Psychiatry Outcome Research in PsychoPharm PD Personality Disorders Discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 1999 Report Share Posted June 3, 1999 Hi Joe Thinking of freudian tongue. 'Dair' could mean dare? Bjørn Joe Berenbaum wrote: > > At 11:36 PM 6/2/99 +0000, you wrote: I can't believe my spelling sometimes. >There a dair amount of aiding and abedding >going on in those loving, caring 12 step programs. was supposed to be >There's a fair amount of aiding and abedding >going on in those loving, caring 12 step programs. It works better when I get it right first time, I realise this. I blame my Logitech radio keyboard. Joe Berenbaum > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > eGroups Spotlight: [eGroups.com] Children of US Military Personnel - Talk to other " brats " whose parent or parents served in the US Military. /list/usmilitary-brats > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > www. - Simplifying group communications ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 1999 Report Share Posted June 3, 1999 Hi again. I like this logic thing. Logic and aggression ( aggression is an emotion ) constitutes a healthy cocktail. BTW, have you ever considered consulting Machiavelli? Bjørn AppleDTP@... wrote: > > Hi Dave: I think I'm going to pass on posting the wacko letter alltogether. I don't want the site to turn to a hate site, although it already dangles one toe in that pool. I will be editing some of the writing (my own only) to try to reflect logic and reason instead of emotion. I think it will be more effective. That's what made Ken Ragge's book so effective. It's easy to flip the bird at AA, but as others have told me, what AA fears most is razor sharp logic. Apple Original Article: /group/12-step-free/?start=4262 > Apple, i wish you had a reader reply area on youir site, i would love to > have had my reply to the " wacko " posted somewhere that sick bastard > could read it. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > eGroups Spotlight: [eGroups.com] Friends of the 2 Inf Div. World War 2 - World War 2 vets and friends are invited to tell their war stories. /list/combat_vets_2id_1944 > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > www. - Simplifying group communications ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 5, 1999 Report Share Posted June 5, 1999 Snip<< Here's a letter I got today from a whacko. (S)he had written earlier offering me legal assistance. Pretty funny huh? > Apple AA tries to inject it's catatonic like belief system in the presence of fear, weakness, self doubt, confusion, shame and the like. It says it right in the BB to only try and recruit a new member when they're really beaten or in other words only kick 'em while they are down. It is no wonder that die hard members of AA try and use tactics to generate similar aspects of self doubt when they defend it. This trite e-mail you got is a classic example. Knowing their tactics makes their behavior so easy to predict. Automatic pilot and the predictable way in which they think defines the boundaries of their little sub-culture world. For example: Snip >>>>>> <<Or are you still parading around on your self-rightous jack-ass? (Attempt at Shame) Well, I be on the look out. So are my colleagues. (Attempt at Fear) Your are right, we are all entitled to our own voice including me, but, in your case, think before you get yourself into trouble with it. (Attempt at Self doubt, confusion). Sounds sort of like a wanna be gangster. AA methodology attempts and in many cases succeeds in convincing people to think and act in specific manners using coercive tactics when people are in a diminished capacity to think for themselves and vulnerable to suggestions. This is rather sinister in itself. Of course one way to respond is to inform the robot that you refuse to do a battle of wits with someone that has no ammunition. Just for humor sake I wrote a response. <<Say home girl wat dat be all bout. Talkin bout bars, burbon and all dat sh..t. My jacks arse be jis fine how bout yours. Oh I forgot you be ridin on that big, rightuss, savior, white, steppin, stallion. Well excuuuse me. The only thing I might need to back up is my b..tt in your big nose for tryin to be steppin in on my business. If your investigatin colleagues be as smart as you then I feel sorry for crime victims in your area of the world. Can't see how dey is gonna find nothin but the gum stuck to their shoes. Even finding the TV remote would be da challenge. Do you need a doctor for that constipation thing in your head cause my cousin -bob is one hell of a vetrinarian. By the way the only steppin I need to do is on the weak content of your veiled threats. Now please endeavor to understand this and avoid more of your flimsy rational that gave you reason to contact me in the first place. Don't go away mad, just go away. You have nothing to offer. Do what you do, hit a meeting, preach to others and me and my colleagues will continue to be the bee in your empty bonnet.>>> bada bing bada boom ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 5, 1999 Report Share Posted June 5, 1999 Hey ; I don't know the writer of the letter, but it pretty well reflects a lot of my AA experience over a 30+ year span. Those intimidations etc are very familiar. I didn't accidentally get on an AA list did I? You said they were " Wacko " for their criticism of AA in a way I thought was right on the money. I think I got into the wrong group. Thanks for listening, ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 5, 1999 Report Share Posted June 5, 1999 richard, great breakdown anaylsis of A.A (or cult in general) tactics. it should be used as a model for disecting A.A. arguments and dialouge. I agree with your feeling that what A.A. does to newcomers is sinister, but i think it goes beyond that. To pray on those who are desperate and in need, when they are the most vunerable points in ther lives for no other reaon to enject thier belief system is truly evil. Also agree with your assesement that A.A. tries to generate those feelings of self-doubt, fear ect. everytime i exhibited any sign of self confidence , reliance or simply pleasure from things non-a.a my sponsor would belittle me or my sobriety in order to manipulate e back inot the fold. Worse yet, as my mom was dying from lung cancer and i had learned my dad had jsut be diagnoised with prosate cancer, my sponsor used those tactics to attempt generate fear and self doubt in me to get me to belive that if i ddint attend more meeetings, i would be useless to be of help to them. thats when i left a.a. it actually backfired in his face. when my mom was diagnoised with cancer (a REAL disease she couldnt control) it made realize how silly it was to waste time in rooms living in fear of a " disease " one could control simply by what they put in thier hands. So, when he tried to generate that doubt in me, i knew one thing for certain, this man was not interested in me, my sobriety, or my best interests. thanks for post. dave ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 5, 1999 Report Share Posted June 5, 1999 gary, thanks for reply, i know exactly what you mean when you write; " someone I loved had lung cancer and I took care of her up to the end. I was angry at her, God, Cancer and the world, not necessarily in that order. I needed a friend to tell about it, among other things, not some prick to criticize me for being angry, just shut up and listen, I allready know it's irrational. But it was how I felt at the time. " it doesnt matter if it seems irrational, its a natural, human need based on human the experince. and thats really not irrational. A.A. denies the human condition, human emotions are portrayed as being our flaws which lead to the mythical 'slipery slope " . they live in fear of their own human nature, cause they have been taught thats what lead them to drink. those " sage nods " i know well, i have been on recieving end of more than i can count and have given a few in my time in A.A. i belive its a way of reinforceing to themselves the mythos of A.A. When human fraility is in their midst, they can pat themselves on the shoulder as they witness the truths of the " Big Book' before them in living color. As for the well being in A.A., i would probably age faster too if i lived in a world where i was powerless to do whats best for myself, where self respect is equated with ego mania and ones well-being and health where measured by how many meetings the attended. About year ago someone e-mailed the ex-A.A. mailing list (now defunct) the results of a survey of steppers. They followed a sample of people in A.A. over a course of (x) years. What they found was of thsoe that stayed in A.A. after that time, what caused the deaths of the overwhelming majority that died wasnt drinking, but rather lung cancer. i was only in A.A. for 18 months and it took some significant time before i could get their negative group thinking out of my brain. So, i can empathize with the guilt you have felt. Its funny, i didnt get a really clear understanding of why i drank the way i did, untill i had time away from a.a. and get their drunkalouges and other propaganda designed to make me belive they had a better understanding of my own nature than i could myself out of my brain. anyways, enough now... glad your on mailing list ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 5, 1999 Report Share Posted June 5, 1999 Hey Dave; What a downright sadistic thing for one man to do to another. If I called a man " Friend " and he had two sick parents, my advice would be a question: " What can I do to help? " Most of us have been in the spot where one person in the family is critically ill and know that at times like that you can use a " Gopher " and a shoulder, which someone genuinely concerned would be offering if they could. That's one of the reasons I say without fear of contradiction that AA is not about helping folks. Someone I loved had lung cancer and I took care of her up to the end. I was angry at her, God, Cancer and the world, not necessarily in that order. I needed a friend to tell about it, among other things, not some prick to criticize me for being angry, just shut up and listen, I allready know it's irrational. But it was how I felt at the time. I imagine that's a familiar tune. Anyone who has been there remembers it well. It's one of the reasons we listen to a friend's ravings, because you and I know how unpeasant it feels and how crazy we get in the face of it. I've found most folks in AA are incapable of being or having a friend, because they do not accept other folks foibles. I'm 61 and have noticed the older I get, the more tolerant I am of other folks flaws and eccentricities. Perhaps it's because I face my own a little more squarely. After 30+ years in AA, I had to get out in order to get any continuous sobriety. As my vision of AA got a bit clearer I understood why I stayed drunk in AA. It was that constant underlying statement " your a no good dog and you'll never be worthy " It's unspoken, but that's the feeling. The brainwashing is so strong that I felt guilty about being sober and NOT being in AA. So much so that after a year sober I went back. In four months I was a wreck, but I got out without drinking. First off when I went back I was either not REALLY an alcoholic or I was drunk and lying about it. It pissed me off, but I let it slide. I know what happens if I attempt to tell AA what really happened. Somebody starts with " We understand " and they end up giving each other sage nods at the poor deluded fool in their midst. Well four of the folks who gave me the " Quality sobriety " speech are drunk today and that AA group no longer exists, but I do exist and am sober. My 6' 5 " , 250 pound sponsor looks like he hasn't shaved in a couple of year and weighs in at about 140. I think he's 48 and looks far and away older than me at 61. I've tried talking with him to no avail. Of all his AA " pals " , I couldn't get one to help me have him forcibly detoxed in the hospital. I may have found a way around that. Point is, they hid behind " It's his decision " How much power of decision does a man have in that condition? 6 years of never being completely sober. All there is inside is the fear of dying if the alcohol is taken away. Been there. I feel that if he went through the 4 day medical detox, then went back to the jug, it truly would be his decision, right now it's the fear's decision. Why try to help a die hard AA who is suffering from the consequences of his own actions? Well, he tried to be my friend, he just didn't know how to be a friend. Truth be told, I didn't either back then. Thanks for listening, ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 5, 1999 Report Share Posted June 5, 1999 To Dave -- Dave, your reasons for leaving were very similar to my own. I experienced a tragic circumstance in my family at X-mas, and instead of receiving compassion and kindness that I desperately needed, there was instant unreasonable concern that I may not attend as many meetings as before. As a matter of fact, it was so extremely odd that these few folks were so concerned with, not how I would get through the situation with my sanity, but how much more I would be dedicating my time and efforts to AA. Instant Red Flag. When I quit going to meetings, the calls I received were bizarre and insulting, " Don't end up like so-and-so, her son committed suicide and she still isn't over it. " Weird - no thanks. I'm learning, growing, making friends, and feel much better all the way around. Thank you for reminding me of " the way it was. " ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 1999 Report Share Posted June 6, 1999 Well said Dave... I also wondered about the 12 & 12. Have you noticed how blatantly irrational it is? It is really one of the least appealing books I've ever read. And to think, I sat in meetings for years thinking that I didn't " get it " , never asking why I have the capacity to read and understand Joyce, Tolstoy, etc., but not 's 12 & 12... AA has some elements which are good nevertheless. These are people helping people, wide availability of meetings, the opportunity for people to " share " and get their feelings out. But it also has its numerous pitfalls which we discuss here. It's sad to me, but I think that newcomers usually start in AA, then gravitate to an alternative program like WFS or SMART recovery, after they've been duped in AA, and by then many folks are just fed up with meetings alltogether. I was surprised to find that there are several SMART recovery meetings in my area (and I live in the middle of a cow pasture), so I'm going to check them out & report back. As far as understanding why I drank the way I did, my problem was exactly what it was before I went into AA. The reasons for my drinking that AA introduced and which I reluctantly tried to personalize were not my reasons. A lifetime of moral inventories was not about to help. It wasn't a question of morality. I'll bet that if an AA newcomer would write down his/her understanding of why he drank, sealed it in an envelope, then went into AA for a number of years, worked the AA program, left the program, opened the envelope, he would see that those problems may very well have been left unaddressed. All the " moral cleansings " in the world don't cure post traumatic stress disorder, depression, berievement, gender issues and the like. Apple > It doesnt matter if it seems irrational, its a natural, human need based > on human the experince. and thats really not irrational. > > A.A. denies the human condition, human emotions are portrayed as being > our flaws which lead to the mythical 'slipery slope " . they live in fear > of their own human nature, cause they have been taught thats what lead > them to drink. > > those " sage nods " i know well, i have been on recieving end of more than > i can count and have given a few in my time in A.A. i belive its a way > of reinforceing to themselves the mythos of A.A. When human fraility is > in their midst, they can pat themselves on the shoulder as they witness > the truths of the " Big Book' before them in living color. > > As for the well being in A.A., i would probably age faster too if i > lived in a world where i was powerless to do whats best for myself, > where self respect is equated with ego mania and ones well-being and > health where measured by how many meetings the attended. > > About year ago someone e-mailed the ex-A.A. mailing list (now defunct) > the results of a survey of steppers. They followed a sample of people in > A.A. over a course of (x) years. What they found was of thsoe that > stayed in A.A. after that time, what caused the deaths of the > overwhelming majority that died wasnt drinking, but rather lung cancer. > > > i was only in A.A. for 18 months and it took some significant time > before i could get their negative group thinking out of my brain. So, i > can empathize with the guilt you have felt. Its funny, i didnt get a > really clear understanding of why i drank the way i did, untill i had > time away from a.a. and get their drunkalouges and other propaganda > designed to make me belive they had a better understanding of my own > nature than i could myself out of my brain. > > anyways, enough now... > glad your on mailing list > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 1999 Report Share Posted June 6, 1999 Hi Sheri; It does seem strange at first blush, that when life deals us a blow, AA is concerned only that less time will be devoted to them. Seems a very unsympathetic and selfish view for a support group. But should we realistically expect more from them? After all they are just like the bunch we drank with, unchanged except in the use of alcohol. They have replaced the alcohol with phrases from a book, but little or nothing from living. Going to two meetings a day and talking about those two hours for the other 22, means I don't have to solve any problems or live through them, just talk about them. If you worked in an office of 10 people, 2 would have asked what they could do to help and meant it. However, those folks would be folks with living experience and empathy. They would do it out of concern for your well being. AA shows concern by putting in fear or raising self doubt. A very sick microcosm of cult society. Make mine vanilla. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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