Re: Why SO MANY get worse or die OR GO NUTS

February 6, 1999

In a message dated 2/5/99 9:25:46 AM Pacific Standard Time,

railroadrita@... writes:

> while AA as a cult is repulsive in all the ways you describe, it is still in

> and of itself a voluntary fellowship, meaning AA itself does nothing to stop

> people from leaving (head trips and dire predictions notwithstanding) once

> they get tired of it and/or realize it's B.S.

Rita,

B.S. This is absolutely untrue. They went after me with a vengeance. The

terror campaign they launched on me in an effort to get me back was

unbelievable. I have written about this in detail before. It will be in

's book, I hope.

Even as it was happening to me, I couldn't figure out who was doing it, or

why. I just never suspected the AAers, but now, in retrospect, it's very clear

to me that it was them. They psychologically " attacked " me to make me " snap, "

which is a very well-known tactic used by cults. In my case, I received

numerous threatening phone calls {i.e.: " when was the last time you checked

the battery in your smoke detector? " male voice), weird messages left on my

answering machine (i.e.: " I've got a big surprise for you " male voice),

unscrewing my front porch light every day while I was at work so it would be

dark when I got home, and on and on. All this was done ANONYMOUSLY, of course.

I am a female in my 40s; this was all very scary to me. I have a big male

German shepherd, but obviously I can't take him everywhere.

Eventually they literally scared me out of my wits. Why? Because, of course,

" only God (read: AA) can restore us to sanity. " By dropping out of AA, I

refused to admit I was insane, so they decided to change that.

To make a long story short, I endured their scare tactics for more than six

months before I ended up having a complete psychotic break, was hospitalized

and then upon my release, of course, advised to go to back to AA by my

" healthcare professionals. "

This was in 1995. I only realized who my tormentors were in 1997, thanks to

Ken Ragge and Jack Trimpey. Trimpey told me to write and get copies of my

hospital records, and I have done that. I can prove my story to anyone who

thinks I am making it up.

Dealing with my desire for revenge, or " closure " of some kind, is the hardest

thing for me now. The hate I feel for the person I hold responsible for what

happened to me is like a scab I pick at all the time. I would like to confront

him and some of the other people who I now know were in on the siege on me.

Actually, " confront " is mild compared to what I would really like to say to

them.

For now my plan is to send them all copies of 's book when it comes

out.

Henders

------------------------------------------------------------------------

February 6, 1999

In a message dated 99-02-06 16:13:28 EST, you write:

> I'm sorry, Henders,

No big deal. thank you for allowing me to vent. :>)

Henders

------------------------------------------------------------------------

February 6, 1999

I'm sorry, Henders, I didn't at at all mean to dismiss or downplay your

experience. Please forgive me if I was insensitive. What I was trying to

address in my post was the phenomenon of people being forced to attend *A by

authority figures (who might not have membership in or even knowledge of 12-step

groups) in order to keep their jobs, their children, their professional

licenses, their driver's licenses. Abusive and/or criminal behavior by *A

members exists and is horrible, but is not supported or sanctioned (in any

official way) by AA literature, by courts, or by social agencies and employers.

The abuse of being forced by people with economic & /or judicial power to playact

at " working on recovery " , with its implicit acceptance of the AA notion of

lifelong-disease-that-makes-you-do-bad-things, DOES have official sanction.

Again, I totally sympathize with you over the cruel and whacked-out

" interventionist " tactics used on you both to get you into AA and to intimidate

you when you tried to leave. I hope you find a satisfactory way to resolve your

anguish.

~Rita

------------------------------------------------

Henders wrote:

> In a message dated 2/5/99 9:25:46 AM Pacific Standard Time,

> railroadrita@... writes:

>

> > while AA as a cult is repulsive in all the ways you describe, it is still in

> > and of itself a voluntary fellowship, meaning AA itself does nothing to stop

> > people from leaving (head trips and dire predictions notwithstanding) once

> > they get tired of it and/or realize it's B.S.

>

> Rita,

>

> B.S. This is absolutely untrue. They went after me with a vengeance. The

> terror campaign they launched on me in an effort to get me back was

> unbelievable. I have written about this in detail before. It will be in

> 's book, I hope.

>

> Even as it was happening to me, I couldn't figure out who was doing it, or

> why. I just never suspected the AAers, but now, in retrospect, it's very clear

> to me that it was them. They psychologically " attacked " me to make me " snap, "

> which is a very well-known tactic used by cults. In my case, I received

> numerous threatening phone calls {i.e.: " when was the last time you checked

> the battery in your smoke detector? " male voice), weird messages left on my

> answering machine (i.e.: " I've got a big surprise for you " male voice),

> unscrewing my front porch light every day while I was at work so it would be

> dark when I got home, and on and on. All this was done ANONYMOUSLY, of course.

> I am a female in my 40s; this was all very scary to me. I have a big male

> German shepherd, but obviously I can't take him everywhere.

>

> Eventually they literally scared me out of my wits. Why? Because, of course,

> " only God (read: AA) can restore us to sanity. " By dropping out of AA, I

> refused to admit I was insane, so they decided to change that.

>

> To make a long story short, I endured their scare tactics for more than six

> months before I ended up having a complete psychotic break, was hospitalized

> and then upon my release, of course, advised to go to back to AA by my

> " healthcare professionals. "

>

> This was in 1995. I only realized who my tormentors were in 1997, thanks to

> Ken Ragge and Jack Trimpey. Trimpey told me to write and get copies of my

> hospital records, and I have done that. I can prove my story to anyone who

> thinks I am making it up.

>

> Dealing with my desire for revenge, or " closure " of some kind, is the hardest

> thing for me now. The hate I feel for the person I hold responsible for what

> happened to me is like a scab I pick at all the time. I would like to confront

> him and some of the other people who I now know were in on the siege on me.

> Actually, " confront " is mild compared to what I would really like to say to

> them.

>

> For now my plan is to send them all copies of 's book when it comes

> out.

>

> Henders

>

------------------------------------------------------------------------

February 6, 1999

Henders ~

>B.S. This is absolutely untrue. They went after me with a vengeance. The

>terror campaign they launched on me in an effort to get me back was

>unbelievable. I have written about this in detail before. It will be in

>'s book, I hope.

You know, until I started reading your, and others', story(ies) here, I

never imagined this stuff went on. Reading the things you all have been

through just astounds me.

>Even as it was happening to me, I couldn't figure out who was doing it, or

>why. I just never suspected the AAers, but now, in retrospect, it's very

clear

>to me that it was them. They psychologically " attacked " me to make me

" snap, "

>which is a very well-known tactic used by cults.

Also used by abusive exhusbands who are angry that you left them. I went

through 14 years of this crap, and I can really identify with what you were

put through.

>All this was done ANONYMOUSLY, of course.

>I am a female in my 40s; this was all very scary to me.

Me, too! But, of course, that is the whole idea. Fear is a great way to

gain control over someone.

>Eventually they literally scared me out of my wits. Why? Because, of

course,

> " only God (read: AA) can restore us to sanity. "

Did they think they were " sane " in doing these things to you? Or

" spiritual? "

>By dropping out of AA, I

>refused to admit I was insane, so they decided to change that.

That is so sick.

>To make a long story short, I endured their scare tactics for more than six

>months before I ended up having a complete psychotic break, was

hospitalized

>and then upon my release, of course, advised to go to back to AA by my

> " healthcare professionals. "

I'm so sorry for your psychotic break. What a crime they perpetrated on

you. Harming someone's mind has to rank right up there alongside murder.

>This was in 1995. I only realized who my tormentors were in 1997, thanks to

>Ken Ragge and Jack Trimpey. Trimpey told me to write and get copies of my

>hospital records, and I have done that. I can prove my story to anyone who

>thinks I am making it up.

I believe you.

>Dealing with my desire for revenge, or " closure " of some kind, is the

hardest

>thing for me now.

Yes. Boy, don't I know!! This may not help you at all, but the way I look

at my exhusband is that A. He has to be him and I don't. B. He has to

live with himself, and he KNOWS what he did. C. I lived, and he didn't

want me to. D. I can look in the mirror and not hate myself. I doubt he

can.

>The hate I feel for the person I hold responsible for what

>happened to me is like a scab I pick at all the time. I would like to

confront

>him and some of the other people who I now know were in on the siege on me.

>Actually, " confront " is mild compared to what I would really like to say to

>them.

>

>For now my plan is to send them all copies of 's book when it comes

>out.

Not a bad idea! Maybe you should.

Take care, Henders.

Snowy

------------------------------------------------------------------------

February 7, 1999

Hi Henders!

I'm horrified at what you've described. I too will be in 's book (I

hope). What a way to get the 15 minutes of fame Andy Warhol promised.

Cheers

-Apple

------------------------------------------------------------------------

February 7, 1999

Henders wrote:

I am a female in my 40s; this was all very scary to me. I have a big male

German shepherd, but obviously I can't take him everywhere.

PW:

I recommend you just curl up on the bed with him at home.

Btw, how many sheep does Herman have? ;-)

Pete

----------------------

" Never name the well from which you will not drink. "

- n Zimmer Bradley

PERSONALITY-DISORDERS SUPPORT/INFO LIST:

http://rdz.acor.org/athenaeum/lists.phtml?personality-disorders

------------------------------------------------------------------------

February 7, 1999

<< I too would like to be in 's book, but I can't think anything

specific that happened to me that by itself I would consider 'bad enough'

to be included. This could be a form of 'denial', but I think it's more

likely the feeling that what I have to say won't be taken seriously. Not

being taken seriously was a reality in AA, and it was also a continuation

of the emotional abuse I received from my parents.>>

Yes Ben, you ARE in denial. If only you'd work the steps properly, you'd find

out that you owe your AA group an amends for not continuing your attendance

and thus depriving them of the opportunity to practice their conversion skills

on a freethinker. Like I've always said, the twelve steps that interest me

the most are the ones leading to the door.

-Apple

------------------------------------------------------------------------

February 7, 1999

At 07:34 PM 2/7/99 EST, AppleDTP@... wrote:

>Hi Henders!

>I'm horrified at what you've described. I too will be in 's book (I

>hope). What a way to get the 15 minutes of fame Andy Warhol promised.

>Cheers

>-Apple

I too would like to be in 's book, but I can't think anything

specific that happened to me that by itself I would consider 'bad enough'

to be included. This could be a form of 'denial', but I think it's more

likely the feeling that what I have to say won't be taken seriously. Not

being taken seriously was a reality in AA, and it was also a continuation

of the emotional abuse I received from my parents.

-----

http://www.mindspring.com/~benbradley/seasons_greetings.html

------------------------------------------------------------------------

February 7, 1999

You might consider the thinking that made you fearful about getting help

and how the disease model thinking kept you from taking control whether you

ever went to meeting or not. The idea of going to 12 step and its

pernicious perception of defectiveness in users serves the continuous

addiction. It would be interesting to put in the book too. Carol

At 09:23 PM 2/7/99 -0500, you wrote:

>

>At 07:34 PM 2/7/99 EST, AppleDTP@... wrote:

>>Hi Henders!

>>I'm horrified at what you've described. I too will be in 's book (I

>>hope). What a way to get the 15 minutes of fame Andy Warhol promised.

>>Cheers

>>-Apple

>

> I too would like to be in 's book, but I can't think anything

>specific that happened to me that by itself I would consider 'bad enough'

>to be included. This could be a form of 'denial', but I think it's more

>likely the feeling that what I have to say won't be taken seriously. Not

>being taken seriously was a reality in AA, and it was also a continuation

>of the emotional abuse I received from my parents.

>-----

>http://www.mindspring.com/~benbradley/seasons_greetings.html

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

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February 8, 1999

Ah, no.

work, family, friends all can 'detach.' AA or else. I've seen it.

-gp

----------

From: Henders88@...[sMTP:Henders88@...]

Sent: Saturday, February 06, 1999 10:27 AM

To: 12-step-freeegroups

Cc: fransway29@...

Subject: Re: Why SO MANY get worse or die OR GO NUTS