Re: All Addiction Recovery Groups cancelled

[Guest guest]

Hey Heidi

I've got this notion that the intent is try to recreate a unified " First

Century Christianity " . Tho derived from a Protestant sect, a lot of the

tweaking that is now used to try to mollify Jews, Moslems, agnostics and

atheists etc was actually designed to keep the Vatican happy. knew

that Jesus, Sins and Confession, Penance and Absolution etc would be viewed

as encroaching on their turf, so those terms were kept out of it, even tho

Catholic clergy had a strong input into early AA.

I think this is one reason why AA could never survive in the OG. The OG

was a charismatic Protestant sect that would be loathed by the Catholic

Chirch that still considered Anglicanism a heresy. As many early AA's were

Irish or possibly Scots Catholics, it would have necessitated a

reconciliation of two irreconciable religions.

Pete

On Sun, 3 Jan 1999 14:01:10 -0800 (PST) heidi michaud

wrote:

> I'd say the goal is to make Catholics-LOL ( now please, let's not get

> offended- technically I am Catholic)

>

>

>

>

> ---Rick Griffiths wrote:

> >

> > > Atheists, Buddhists, etc. have been able to adapt the program to

> their own

> > > beliefs by replacing " God " with " good, " or a personally held moral

> ideal.

> >

> > As an Atheist who " outed " himself at his very first AA meeting, it was

> > suggested that I do the same. Somehow it just didn't seem to me like

> > they were going to be satisfied with that for long. I believe the

> main

> > goal of AA/NA is to make Christians. If you happen to kick your

> > addiction along the way, well that's good too but that takes second

> > place. People so inclined could just join the church and do as well

> in

> > most cases I imagine.

> >

> > Rick

> >

> >

> >

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> > Isn't it Time You Moved to Fortune City?

> >

> http://www2.fortunecity.com/cgi-bin/homepage/estate.pl?referer=findmail

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Hello Pupship, list

It might be more accurate to say he *claims* he's an atheist.

My ex-sponsor claims to be an atheist too, but he talks like a Revivalist

preacher. When I did my Fifth Step with him, he spoke first (of course):

" There are 3 ppl in this room. You, Me, and God. " (Heck, I though he

thought He was God).

What the fuck does that mean, coming from a supposed Atheist??

In his supposedly medical book on addiction, he talked abt addiction

disrupting the addicts " relationship to God " . Again, how the fuck is that

supposed to be compatible with Atheism?

AA has that duck test crap abt an alcoholic. I think the duck test needs to

be applied to the supposed Atheists/Agnostics too.

Pete

> That I can understand; I was drunk at my first meeting, and decided to try

> their therapeutic methods. Incidentally, it was at the recommendation of an

> atheist who has been in AA for 20 years. He's a criminal defense attorney.

>

>

>

> In a message dated 1/3/99 5:57:30 AM Central Standard Time,

> sure@... writes:

>

> << I (Rick Griffiths) wrote:

> >

> > << As an Atheist who " outed " himself at his very first AA meeting, it was

> > suggested that I do the same. Somehow it just didn't seem to me like

> > they were going to be satisfied with that for long. I believe the main

> > goal of AA/NA is to make Christians.>>

> >

> and Pupship wrote:

>

> " Somehow it just didn't seem " isn't very compelling language; on what

> facts

> > was this " seeming " based?

>

> and I reply:

>

> Hi Pupship,

>

> I stand by what I wrote. Those were my experiences in the approx. year

> and 1/2 I went to the meetings. That's why I wrote " seem to me. "

>

> Gawd love them, they never gave up trying to 'save' me or anyone else

> that happened by. But I didn't hide the fact I don't believe there is a

> God, and I respectfully refused to pray and so drew a lot of subtle, and

> not so sublte fire. Every time it came up I explained that I'd worked

> too hard to build a happy life for myself and there was no way I was

> going to go back to acting like a junkie/drunk by just doing whatever is

> easiest.

>

> To be fair, I was around 4 years clean and sober and fully recovered by

> the time I hit my first meeting. I was there to get my coworkers off my

> ass and to support our clients, and to learn so there wasn't much at

> stake for me.

>

> Rick Griffiths

>

>

> >>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Waiting for daily BCS updates to arrive in your inbox?

> Join the ESPN.com e-group and we will deliver them to you.

> http://offers./click/181/0

>

>

[Guest guest]

now, what does this mean exactly?

In London, when ppl said 'Recovering Catholic' they meant recovering *from*

Catholicism!

Pete

> In a message dated 1/3/99 3:59:39 PM Central Standard Time,

> zoesunshine@... writes:

>

> << I'd say the goal is to make Catholics-LOL ( now please, let's not get

> offended- technically I am Catholic)

> >>

>

> I went to some meetings in Louisiana (95% Catholic) and some of the groupers

> identified themselves as " recovering Catholics " in addition to their alcoholic

> status. And they were serious about it.

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Waiting for daily BCS updates to arrive in your inbox?

> Join the ESPN.com e-group and we will deliver them to you.

> http://offers./click/181/0

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Snowy

Secret confession: I just might go back to OA.

when I query god, and they say:

" All you need to know is that you aint it. " I shall reply:

" No. i also need to know that you aint it either. "

Stanton Peele has a website; a netsearch on his name will easily find it.

btw, are you a Native American by any chance?

I know that some Native American communities have had bad problems with

alcohol - I came across one paper reporting something like 75% lifetime

prevalence of alcohol abuse in men and 50% in women in one Native American

village. Presumably the disease concept/12-step ppl consider all these ppl

" diseased " . how very enlightened!

Pete

----------------------

" Never name the well from which you will not drink. "

- n Zimmer Bradley

PERSONALITY-DISORDERS LIST:

http://rdz.acor.org/athenaeum/lists.phtml?personality-disorders

_____________________

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 99-01-02 15:34:43 EST, you write:

<< > Dear Rick.

>

> After examining AA/NA, SMART and RR, I feel that NONE of these groups are

> necessary. I lean toward supporting RR, however, as RR has articulated

some

> of the best criticisms against the Recovery Movement. Before AA, RR,

SMART,

> etc., people just grew up. Sometimes, returning to the past is a step

ahead.

>

> Yriondo

>

Hi , good to hear your voice again.

I agree, none of those groups are necessary. For you and I. But who the

hell are you, Dave Trippel or Jack Trimpey to say they're not necessary

for someone else's recovery? (I realize in your last sentence you said

" sometimes. " ) There's a lot of people out there who claim a recovery

group saved their lives. Are you guys saying they're wrong? And if so,

doesn't that sound just a little AAish to you? >>

Dear Rick,

I am of the sincere opinion that popular delusions pervade society -- not a

new theory, See: Extraordinary Popular Delusions & the Madness of Crowds by

MacKay. My wife once took the positions that, contrary to my beliefs,

9 of 10 people will not bow to social pressure to the extent that others'

rights are abrogated. When we visited a grocery store later that day, and she

requested a brownie from the bakery, I loudly stated: " Kim, the doctor told

you next time you eat chocolate you could DIE. I know this employee is not

IRRESPONSIBLE enough to sell you that brownie! " The clerk refused to sell her

the brownie, and she declined to have me demonstrate my point the additional 9

times.

And while this story is not exactly " on point, " to my mind it speaks directly

to the issue of why so many claims particular treatment modalities " saved

their lives. " Simply put, most people are impressionable sheep. And the more

sheepish they are, the lower the rung on the " recovery ladder " (I coined that

silly phrase) they call their saving grace. It goes something like this:

Self Recovery without need for " recovery literature. "

Self Recovery after exposure to " recovery literature. "

RR

SMART

AA/NA a period

AA/NA for life

RR's literature helped me articulate what I'd always seen in AA/NA as absurd

and insane. RR literature validated my anger and my " inability " to live a

life of fanatical religious superstition, or even the sophistry of SMART

psychobabble. It spoke of decisions, of free will and of why one is justified

in hating those who would rob the vulnerable of those two precious things.

Ragge and Peele speak in same vein, though with far different styles from

Trimpey or each other. I have yet to fully agree with any of the three,

though I have enormous respect for them all.

And in case you thought I was too sane in this letter, I'll add this: If I

had Bill Gates' money, I'd try to pay them to all piss on Bill W's grave

simultaneously!

Yriondo

Panama City Beach, FL

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 99-01-02 21:37:45 EST, you write:

<< Hi ,

What you write mostly does make sense to me but I'm still concerned when

I think about someone else deciding what is good for me. Why can't I

choose from a smorgasbord of ideas and programs? Wouldn't that be

better for me in the beginning of recovery anyway? I mean to take

responsibility for myself to decide for myself if AA or SMART is bunk to

me or the greatest thing since low cal. cheeze slices came along?

Take care.

Rick >>

Dear Rick,

I believe that AA/NA should be available to those who want that type program.

But, I think AA/NA has *NO* business facilitating state-sponsored coercion

(signing attendamnce verification sheets, etc.) *AND* has an affirmative

obligation (given the vulnerable state that most " newcomers " arrive in) to

state the following:

" This program is religious, and works on the basis of religious beliefs. Five

of the 12 steps mention a male, monotheistic God and Christianity is a

dominant theme in this program "

If this were done, I would regard AA/NA as any other freely-chosen religion.

And, accordingly, I would adhere to H. L. Mencken's words that (paraphrasing)

" religions are to be respected to the same degree and to the same extent as

any man's belief that his wife is pretty and his children are smart. "

I merely feel AA and NA are ineffetive and dishonest. Others are free to form

their own opinions, and I will " butt out " of their choices and lifestyles when

they stop coercing and deceiving others.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 99-01-02 22:50:00 EST, you write:

<< -

even if this were done it is not enough. As I have stated before, the

reason I decided to 'join' AA was BECAUSE of its belief in God. My

voluntary membership did not protect me from the devastating effects

of this program, nor did my belief in God (I finally told myself there

was no way I could be doing 'God's Will' for me,if constant prayer and

adherence to this 'program' was causing me a nervous breakdown). AA

kills people, and I would even venture to say it kills more people

than it saves. >>

I agree. But I believe in others having the right to join cults (after

informed consent), or even die if they so wish. I hate AA/NA as much as the

next person, but it should not be banned.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

What are the criteria for " cult " ?

In a message dated 1/2/99 10:32:47 PM Central Standard Time,

AuguralOne@... writes:

<<

I agree. But I believe in others having the right to join cults (after

informed consent), or even die if they so wish. I hate AA/NA as much as the

next person, but it should not be banned.

>>

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

> Dear Rick,

>

> I am of the sincere opinion that popular delusions pervade society -- not a

> new theory, See: Extraordinary Popular Delusions & the Madness of Crowds by

> MacKay. My wife once took the positions that, contrary to my beliefs,

> 9 of 10 people will not bow to social pressure to the extent that others'

> rights are abrogated. When we visited a grocery store later that day, and she

> requested a brownie from the bakery, I loudly stated: " Kim, the doctor told

> you next time you eat chocolate you could DIE. I know this employee is not

> IRRESPONSIBLE enough to sell you that brownie! " The clerk refused to sell her

> the brownie, and she declined to have me demonstrate my point the additional 9

> times.

>

> And while this story is not exactly " on point, " to my mind it speaks directly

> to the issue of why so many claims particular treatment modalities " saved

> their lives. " Simply put, most people are impressionable sheep. And the more

> sheepish they are, the lower the rung on the " recovery ladder " (I coined that

> silly phrase) they call their saving grace.

Hi ,

What you write mostly does make sense to me but I'm still concerned when

I think about someone else deciding what is good for me. Why can't I

choose from a smorgasbord of ideas and programs? Wouldn't that be

better for me in the beginning of recovery anyway? I mean to take

responsibility for myself to decide for myself if AA or SMART is bunk to

me or the greatest thing since low cal. cheeze slices came along?

Take care.

Rick

Rick

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 99-01-03 02:26:38 EST, you write:

<< " Somehow it just didn't seem " isn't very compelling language; on what facts

was this " seeming " based? AA literature mentions atheists successful in the

program in a number of places. In fact, there's an AA pamphlet about them.

I've been going for seven months, and nobody has said ANYTHING to me about

Jesus or Xianity; I have only heard one person mention the bible. Where do

you

get the idea their goal is to " make Christians " ? >>

Read the Big Book chapter " We Agnostics, " then eat your words.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Pupship@... wrote:

>

> Yes I've been asked to pray, and I've done so, in spite of my atheistic

> leanings. That certainly won't turn me into a christian; surely you don't

> think I'm THAT gullible? And I've found it very easy to adapt the " religious "

> ideas into my own understanding of psychology, etc. equivocating " HP " with a

> moral ideal, " spirituality " with general emotio-psychological backdrop akin to

(snipped)

Hi Pupship,

Let me see if I understand this. You're praying when they ask you to?

But you're an Athiest? Do they know you're faking it until you make it?

<g>

Rick

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

I (Rick Griffiths) wrote:

>

> << As an Atheist who " outed " himself at his very first AA meeting, it was

> suggested that I do the same. Somehow it just didn't seem to me like

> they were going to be satisfied with that for long. I believe the main

> goal of AA/NA is to make Christians.>>

>

and Pupship wrote:

" Somehow it just didn't seem " isn't very compelling language; on what

facts

> was this " seeming " based?

and I reply:

Hi Pupship,

I stand by what I wrote. Those were my experiences in the approx. year

and 1/2 I went to the meetings. That's why I wrote " seem to me. "

Gawd love them, they never gave up trying to 'save' me or anyone else

that happened by. But I didn't hide the fact I don't believe there is a

God, and I respectfully refused to pray and so drew a lot of subtle, and

not so sublte fire. Every time it came up I explained that I'd worked

too hard to build a happy life for myself and there was no way I was

going to go back to acting like a junkie/drunk by just doing whatever is

easiest.

To be fair, I was around 4 years clean and sober and fully recovered by

the time I hit my first meeting. I was there to get my coworkers off my

ass and to support our clients, and to learn so there wasn't much at

stake for me.

Rick Griffiths

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Pupship, when people talk of AA trying to " Christianize " them,

they don't mean they're instructed to cross themselves or told that

Jesus is their Savior. The issue is the deity, or " higher power " ,

required in the steps. The attributes of this deity, regardless of

shallow encouragement to conceptualize it however you wish, make it a

Christian deity, and specifically a Protestant-revivalist deity in the

tradition of the 19th century German Pietists, on whose theology

Buchman's Oxford Group philosophy was based.

Telling an atheist that he/she must believe in and pray to some

superhuman power for salvation and removal of " defects " is clearly

telling the atheist to accept monotheistic religious ideas, regardless

of whether the word " God " is used. Thus the atheist newcomer is

actively pressured into changing his/her belief system. But does the

12-step belief system really allow whatever monotheistic

conceptualization one desires?

The Jewish concept of God is a deity that is prayed to for

purposes of adoration, not for personal guidance or salvation. And

" self-will " , far from being a dangerous thing to be subjugated lest one

be driven away from God and into " insanity " , is considered in Judaism to

be a gift bestowed on man by God. An observant Jew would never expect

God to " remove " any personal shortcomings. The ideal in Judaism is

personal reflection on behavior, followed by behavioral change as deemed

necessary. The concept of immoral or unhealthy behavior being caused by

a " spiritual disease " that only God can cure (but only if you " humble "

yourself enough) is foreign to Judaism. God as Jews understand him

(Baruch HaShem) is not the God of the steps. A Jewish newcomer being

told, " You can have whatever conception of God you wish, as long as you

believe you're powerless and insane and that God will remove your

defects, restore your sanity, and relieve your urge to drink " is being

told to convert to a non-Jewish belief system.

So pervasive is the neo-Buchmanist Christianity of AA that any

expression of ideas of self-improvement or " turning over a new leaf " is

termed " denial " or " your disease talking. " I was told point-blank in

treatment by my " grateful AA member " counselor that believing in myself

and my own capabilities is " dangerous " ; that I could only " be in

recovery " if I chose a " power greater than myself " with the attributes

Buchman and thought it should have and allowed it to rescue me.

Needless to say, I never did achieve the " in recovery " status; I simply

stopped misusing alcohol, through my own power, and with my self-will

happily " running riot. "

~RRRita

P.S. For those interested in different theologies and concepts of God,

I recommend " A History of God " by Armstrong.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

I'm just trying it out. They say it works; it may produce a beneficial

psychological effect. It doesn't hurt or take very long; why not? <g>

In a message dated 1/3/99 5:57:29 AM Central Standard Time,

sure@... writes:

<< > Yes I've been asked to pray, and I've done so, in spite of my atheistic

> leanings. That certainly won't turn me into a christian; surely you don't

> think I'm THAT gullible? And I've found it very easy to adapt the

" religious "

> ideas into my own understanding of psychology, etc. equivocating " HP " with

a

> moral ideal, " spirituality " with general emotio-psychological backdrop akin

to

(snipped)

Hi Pupship,

Let me see if I understand this. You're praying when they ask you to?

But you're an Athiest? Do they know you're faking it until you make it?

<g> >>

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

I meant that being told AA is a religion is not enough. If someone had

said it was a religion, I wouldn't have cared; I needed to be told it

was a brainwashing cult that would use scare tactics to keep me

incapacitated for the rest of my life.

---AuguralOne@... wrote:

>

> In a message dated 99-01-02 22:50:00 EST, you write:

>

> << -

> even if this were done it is not enough. As I have stated before, the

> reason I decided to 'join' AA was BECAUSE of its belief in God. My

> voluntary membership did not protect me from the devastating effects

> of this program, nor did my belief in God (I finally told myself

there

> was no way I could be doing 'God's Will' for me,if constant prayer

and

> adherence to this 'program' was causing me a nervous breakdown). AA

> kills people, and I would even venture to say it kills more people

> than it saves. >>

>

> I agree. But I believe in others having the right to join cults

(after

> informed consent), or even die if they so wish. I hate AA/NA as

much as the

> next person, but it should not be banned.

>

>

>

>

------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Waiting for daily BCS updates to arrive in your inbox?

> Join the ESPN.com e-group and we will deliver them to you.

> http://offers./click/181/0

>

>

[Guest guest]

pupster-

take some time and look up 'cults' on the web. There are many sites

devoted to listing cults and what constitutes them;that is how I

convinced myself AA was a cult and was surprised as all hell when I

stumbled upon Stanton Peele's site(when I searched 'alternatives to

AA' and I didn't even think there were any). I thought I was the only

person who felt the way I did. Ironically, I find my recovery from

recovery to be a lot like the initial feelings I had when joining AA-

relief, validation, etc.

---Pupship@... wrote:

>

> What are the criteria for " cult " ?

>

>

> In a message dated 1/2/99 10:32:47 PM Central Standard Time,

> AuguralOne@... writes:

>

> <<

> I agree. But I believe in others having the right to join cults

(after

> informed consent), or even die if they so wish. I hate AA/NA as

much as the

> next person, but it should not be banned.

> >>

>

>

------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Isn't it Time You Moved to Fortune City?

>

http://www2.fortunecity.com/cgi-bin/homepage/estate.pl?referer=findmail

>

>

[Guest guest]

I'd say the goal is to make Catholics-LOL ( now please, let's not get

offended- technically I am Catholic)

---Rick Griffiths wrote:

>

> > Atheists, Buddhists, etc. have been able to adapt the program to

their own

> > beliefs by replacing " God " with " good, " or a personally held moral

ideal.

>

> As an Atheist who " outed " himself at his very first AA meeting, it was

> suggested that I do the same. Somehow it just didn't seem to me like

> they were going to be satisfied with that for long. I believe the

main

> goal of AA/NA is to make Christians. If you happen to kick your

> addiction along the way, well that's good too but that takes second

> place. People so inclined could just join the church and do as well

in

> most cases I imagine.

>

> Rick

>

>

>

------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Isn't it Time You Moved to Fortune City?

>

http://www2.fortunecity.com/cgi-bin/homepage/estate.pl?referer=findmail

>

>

[Guest guest]

---Jim & wrote:

>

> Have you been asked to pray? Has anybody ever asked you to

> lead the group in prayer, in spite of making your lack of

> religion clear? I was told to pray and meditate every day,

> in spite of the fact that I made it clear that I was an

> atheist. When I brought up that AA might not be for me

> because I was an atheist, I was told that the program was

> spiritual not religious. Immediately after a 20+ year

> member sternly informed me of the distinction, then another

> member felt inspired to share how Jesus Christ had saved him

> by sending him to AA. After that guy was done, we got up,

> held hands, said the lords prayer, and walked out of the

> church. But hey its not religious!

> The ambiguity is a mindfuck. The spirituality/religion is

> a double binding message. The ambiguity combines with

> popular notions of spirituality being an indication of

> psychological health and a way to happiness. This serves to

> disarm peoples well formed arguments against religion. If

> Steppers were to show up at your front door early on

> saturday mornings, trying to explain the difference between

> religion and spirituality, then asking you to hold hands and

> pray with them, you could look them in the eye, tell them

> bullshit, and slam the door in their face. But since you

> are meeting them on their ground (and are outnumbered), they

> get to make the rules and define the concepts. Not having

> arguments against spirituality, steppers can confuse the new

> comer and distract them with other ambiguous terms such as

> powerlessness etc. This creates a state of tension and

> confusion in which the newcomer has difficulty trusting

> their own sense of reality, since everybody else seems to

> understand such ambiguities. The final resolution of this

> tension is to admit defeat and accept the groups definitions

> of the ambiguous terms. Jim.

>

> this tension is one the prerequisites for brainwashing- it's also

the stuff that will make you crack-up

>

> Pupship@... wrote:

> >

> > In a message dated 1/3/99 1:12:40 AM Central Standard Time,

> > sure@... writes:

> >

> > << As an Atheist who " outed " himself at his very first AA

meeting, it was

> > suggested that I do the same. Somehow it just didn't seem to me

like

> > they were going to be satisfied with that for long. I believe

the main

> > goal of AA/NA is to make Christians.>>

> >

> > " Somehow it just didn't seem " isn't very compelling language; on

what facts

> > was this " seeming " based? AA literature mentions atheists

successful in the

> > program in a number of places. In fact, there's an AA pamphlet

about them.

> > I've been going for seven months, and nobody has said ANYTHING to

me about

> > Jesus or Xianity; I have only heard one person mention the bible.

Where do you

> > get the idea their goal is to " make Christians " ?

> >

> > << I believe the main

> > goal of AA/NA is to make Christians.>>>

> >

> > Why?

> >

> > ----------------------------------------------------------

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

that's what it means here, too. The bottom line is re covery from

guilt and shame in whatever package it was wrapped in for you.

---Pete Watts wrote:

>

> now, what does this mean exactly?

>

> In London, when ppl said 'Recovering Catholic' they meant recovering

*from*

> Catholicism!

>

> Pete

>

>

>

> > In a message dated 1/3/99 3:59:39 PM Central Standard Time,

> > zoesunshine@... writes:

> >

> > << I'd say the goal is to make Catholics-LOL ( now please, let's

not get

> > offended- technically I am Catholic)

> > >>

> >

> > I went to some meetings in Louisiana (95% Catholic) and some of

the groupers

> > identified themselves as " recovering Catholics " in addition to

their alcoholic

> > status. And they were serious about it.

> >

> >

------------------------------------------------------------------------

> > Waiting for daily BCS updates to arrive in your inbox?

> > Join the ESPN.com e-group and we will deliver them to you.

> > http://offers./click/181/0

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Pete and list,

>When I did my Fifth Step with him, he spoke first (of course):

OF COURSE!

>(Heck, I though he

>thought He was God).

Boy! Could I ever relate to this!! Are they ALL like that? Seems like it.

>What the fuck does that mean, coming from a supposed Atheist??

Good question. I would have wondered the same thing.

Snowy

>Pete

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

>Hi Pete

Hi Snowy

>

>Secret confession: I just might go back to OA.

REALLY? Hey, if it works for you . . .

>when I query god, and they say:

>

> " All you need to know is that you aint it. " I shall reply:

>

> " No. i also need to know that you aint it either. "

Sounds like a good reply!!!

>Stanton Peele has a website; a netsearch on his name will easily find it.

OK. Thanks.

>btw, are you a Native American by any chance?

Partly. (The best part).

>I know that some Native American communities have had bad problems with

>alcohol - I came across one paper reporting something like 75% lifetime

>prevalence of alcohol abuse in men and 50% in women in one Native American

>village. Presumably the disease concept/12-step ppl consider all these ppl

> " diseased " . how very enlightened!

LOL!! Enlightened, indeed! Personally, I think it has more to do with

hopelessness, having your culture ripped apart, and - oh - don't get me

started! Hey, read " Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee. "

Snowy

>

>Pete

>----------------------

> " Never name the well from which you will not drink. "

> - n Zimmer Bradley

>

>PERSONALITY-DISORDERS LIST:

>http://rdz.acor.org/athenaeum/lists.phtml?personality-disorders

>_____________________

>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Isn't it Time You Moved to Fortune City?

>http://www2.fortunecity.com/cgi-bin/homepage/estate.pl?referer=findmail

>

>

[Guest guest]

Bette,

Please excuse the delay in responding.

Good point! (About Foxwoods). The old-time shamans forsaw that the Native

Americans indeed *will* take back their lands, and I think we are beginning

to see how this could happen.

Snowy

>> Snowy

>

>I think that you are absolutely about this.

>

>But take heart...I think Native Americans may just get their lands back, if

>they keep building casinos like Foxwoods.<G>

>

>Bette

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

I have an aunt who was a nurse in for an Indian/Eskimo village(please

pardon my ignorance of the details) in Northern-NORTHERN Canada. She

often mentioned the amazing effects of alcohol, sugar, and white

flour/processed foods, on these people: incredible violence, obesity,

diabetes, tooth decay; all in one generation. This does say something

about genetics, but I'm not sure what. Is it hypoglycemia? Is it

simply the fact that they have no genetic history with these

substances? What does this say about the genetic alcoholic connection?

---Pete Watts wrote:

>

> Hi Snowy

>

> Secret confession: I just might go back to OA.

>

> when I query god, and they say:

>

> " All you need to know is that you aint it. " I shall reply:

>

> " No. i also need to know that you aint it either. "

>

> Stanton Peele has a website; a netsearch on his name will easily

find it.

>

> btw, are you a Native American by any chance?

>

> I know that some Native American communities have had bad problems

with

> alcohol - I came across one paper reporting something like 75%

lifetime

> prevalence of alcohol abuse in men and 50% in women in one Native

American

> village. Presumably the disease concept/12-step ppl consider all

these ppl

> " diseased " . how very enlightened!

>

> Pete

> ----------------------

> " Never name the well from which you will not drink. "

> - n Zimmer Bradley

>

> PERSONALITY-DISORDERS LIST:

> http://rdz.acor.org/athenaeum/lists.phtml?personality-disorders

> _____________________

>

>

>

------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Isn't it Time You Moved to Fortune City?

>

http://www2.fortunecity.com/cgi-bin/homepage/estate.pl?referer=findmail

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hello heidi

On the contrary, it says *nothing*for certain abt genetics. instead, it

shows the effect of sudden exposure of a culture to drugs that it has not

had time to assimilate gradually.

Despite being extremely similar genetically, most Arizona Pima adults are

obese and have diabetes; whereas in the Mexican Pima obesity and diabetes

are almost unknown. The Mexican Pima lifestyle has barely changed for

centuries, but the Arizona Pima have been exposed to refined carbos etc very

rapidly.

Pete

On Mon, 11 Jan 1999 15:53:42 -0800 (PST) heidi michaud

wrote:

>

> I have an aunt who was a nurse in for an Indian/Eskimo village(please

> pardon my ignorance of the details) in Northern-NORTHERN Canada. She

> often mentioned the amazing effects of alcohol, sugar, and white

> flour/processed foods, on these people: incredible violence, obesity,

> diabetes, tooth decay; all in one generation. This does say something

> about genetics, but I'm not sure what. Is it hypoglycemia? Is it

> simply the fact that they have no genetic history with these

> substances? What does this say about the genetic alcoholic connection?

>

>

>

> ---Pete Watts wrote:

> >

> > Hi Snowy

> >

> > Secret confession: I just might go back to OA.

> >

> > when I query god, and they say:

> >

> > " All you need to know is that you aint it. " I shall reply:

> >

> > " No. i also need to know that you aint it either. "

> >

> > Stanton Peele has a website; a netsearch on his name will easily

> find it.

> >

> > btw, are you a Native American by any chance?

> >

> > I know that some Native American communities have had bad problems

> with

> > alcohol - I came across one paper reporting something like 75%

> lifetime

> > prevalence of alcohol abuse in men and 50% in women in one Native

> American

> > village. Presumably the disease concept/12-step ppl consider all

> these ppl

> > " diseased " . how very enlightened!

> >

> > Pete

> > ----------------------

> > " Never name the well from which you will not drink. "

> > - n Zimmer Bradley

> >

> > PERSONALITY-DISORDERS LIST:

> > http://rdz.acor.org/athenaeum/lists.phtml?personality-disorders

> > _____________________

> >

> >

> >

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> > Isn't it Time You Moved to Fortune City?

> >

> http://www2.fortunecity.com/cgi-bin/homepage/estate.pl?referer=findmail

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Heidi~

This was really interesting. Your aunt, a REAL person, has noticed this.

It's not just some scientist writing theoretically.

From what I have read, it is supposed to be genetic, but who knows? I know

the Native American lacks the enzyme necessary to digest milk, which would

be an evolutionary thing, and genetic. Maybe the rest is, too. I know the

Europeans noticed the same thing as your aunt did when they first came to

this country. Just give those " Indians " firewater and you could have

whatever you wanted. They quickly saw the difference in the way they

reacted to it from the way the Indians did and used it to full advantage.

It sounds like a genetic thing, doesn't it? Like the lacking enzyme for

milk protein, the lack of refined, concentrated carbohydrate in the diet

gave them a genetically different response to carbohydrate. Oh, boy. I

don't want to deal with this. If this is true, and I inherited it, no more

sugar. Yuck.

I know my grandfather, who's grandfather was the Indian, said he had whiskey

once. Once. He didn't just like it. HE LOVED IT!! He loved it sooooo

much, he vowed to never touch it again, and didn't. He didn't know why, of

course, but he felt it would take over his life. This sounds genetic, too,

now that I think about it. His whole body just said " YES " when he took that

drink.

I followed his advice and watch what I drink ~ always have. So, instead, I

have a weight issue. Hard to say which is worse. He didn't even have the

weight issue. He was skinny.

Just some random thoughts in response to your very interesting post.

Snowy

>I have an aunt who was a nurse in for an Indian/Eskimo village(please

>pardon my ignorance of the details) in Northern-NORTHERN Canada. She

>often mentioned the amazing effects of alcohol, sugar, and white

>flour/processed foods, on these people: incredible violence, obesity,

>diabetes, tooth decay; all in one generation. This does say something

>about genetics, but I'm not sure what. Is it hypoglycemia? Is it

>simply the fact that they have no genetic history with these

>substances? What does this say about the genetic alcoholic connection?

>

>

>

>---Pete Watts wrote:

>>

>> Hi Snowy

>>

>> Secret confession: I just might go back to OA.

>>

>> when I query god, and they say:

>>

>> " All you need to know is that you aint it. " I shall reply:

>>

>> " No. i also need to know that you aint it either. "

>>

>> Stanton Peele has a website; a netsearch on his name will easily

>find it.

>>

>> btw, are you a Native American by any chance?

>>

>> I know that some Native American communities have had bad problems

>with

>> alcohol - I came across one paper reporting something like 75%

>lifetime

>> prevalence of alcohol abuse in men and 50% in women in one Native

>American

>> village. Presumably the disease concept/12-step ppl consider all

>these ppl

>> " diseased " . how very enlightened!

>>

>> Pete

>> ----------------------

>> " Never name the well from which you will not drink. "

>> - n Zimmer Bradley

>>

>> PERSONALITY-DISORDERS LIST:

>> http://rdz.acor.org/athenaeum/lists.phtml?personality-disorders

>> _____________________

>>

>>

>>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>> Isn't it Time You Moved to Fortune City?

>>

>http://www2.fortunecity.com/cgi-bin/homepage/estate.pl?referer=findmail

>>

>>