Guest guest Posted November 26, 1998 Report Share Posted November 26, 1998 A little bit more on this... On the professional addiction list INCASE, a person pointed out that huge numbers of students " fell well within the criteria for alcohol dependence " , but were quite capable of moderating their behavior away from campus, and after graduating. He argued that this indicated that caution should be used in applying the dx of alcohol dependence. The DSM and ICD dxes of alcohol abuse and alcohol dependence have quite strong criteria - getting a wee bit typsy and peeing out the frat house windows alone will not get you them. I indicated that, rather than having a de facto unwritten exclusion clause in the diagnostic criteria: " Individual is not an undergrad on campus " , a rather more suitable approach is to alter what significance the dx of alcohol dependence is actually given. To the Disease/12 step adherents, a dx of alcohol dependence always means Marty Mann(*) congenital Natural Born Alcoholic, with lifetime abstinence and AA the only solution. The original post was motivated by the manifest absurdity opf that conclusion. What is true is that the criteria for *remission* should probably be relaxed. The epidimiologist Robin Room wrote me that he argued strongly that remission should just mean failing to meet all the criteria which would initially have got the dx, but instead it is defined as not meeting a smaller number, so alcohol dependence is a " sticky " dx which is hard to shake off but not a black hole dx like the DM/12-step ppl claim that " alcoholism " is. Even with the present tougher requirements to be considered in remission, there is still no requirement to be alcohol abstinent to be considered in Full Remission, despite the belief of some 12-step practioners to the contrary. (*) Is/Was this person male or female? Pete ---------------------- " Never name the well from which you will not drink. " - n Zimmer Bradley PERSONALITY-DISORDERS LIST: http://rdz.acor.org/athenaeum/lists.phtml?personality-disorders _____________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 26, 1998 Report Share Posted November 26, 1998 Hello again Did the 'Marty Mann' test make a distinction between males and females as to how much alcohol they should try to drink to dx themselves? On New Year's Eve I had a very large amount of alcohol for a guy who drinks abt a pint of beer once every 3 weeks or so at the most - maybe 3 or more measures of whisky and a litre of beer, and it had little effect on me other than slightly enhanced merriment in the middle. The reason is that I'm a 300lb guy and soak the stuff up like a sponge! Pete PS Just in case anyone thinks this post significant (grouper lurkers perhaps) as indicated above, this is not a regular thing; every few years I sometimes have a Xmas or New Year joint too. no big deal, but the smoke may be bad for the lungs even as a one-off, so I might cut that. > Pete Watts wrote: > > > > (*) Is/Was this person male or female? > > > > Pete > > Pete, > > Marty Mann was a woman. > > Ken > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Waiting for daily BCS updates to arrive in your inbox? > Join the ESPN.com e-group and we will deliver them to you. > http://offers./click/181/0 > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 3, 1999 Report Share Posted January 3, 1999 Pupship@... wrote: > > On another note, I have been seriously questioning whether or not I am even an > alcoholic, and this is one point I HAVE found difficult to discuss with some > of my fellow groupers. It is true that I have had problems that I brought on > myself while drinking excessively, that I liked to get drunk sometimes, and > that I used it to medicate negative emotions sometimes; but these details > alone do not an alcoholic make. In fact, I once remained totally abstinent for > about five years without ANY AA, RR, etc. before the last binge commenced. How > does one know one is an alcoholic? The AA Q & A's as well as a number of others > I've seen seem to be insufficient; there are probably many people who fall > within the parameters of alcoholism set by such tests who aren't alcoholic at > all. About 85% of any college freshman class would be alcoholic by those > standards! Is there a more reliable, realistic test for true > alcoholism/addiction availible? In some cases it's quite obvious, not so with > me I'm afraid. > Maybe you could try some of the tests. There's one on the Habitsmart site and there are 3 or 4 around that I think are accepted. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 3, 1999 Report Share Posted January 3, 1999 Joe, you know, I was just thinking the same Blasphemy myself: perhaps 'alcoholic' is a subjective term that each individual defines for himself. But I like your idea better, there is no such thing as an alcoholic (oh my God, this is such alcoholic thinking) only alcoholic behavior. I myself used cocaine for a good 7 years, from 16 to 23, and just stopped when it was no longer available. I never considered myself a drug-addict. My Aunt in recovery was addicted to Xanax for 10 years, an addiction, she says, overcoming was the hardest thing she 's ever done; this she did before AA , yet she now believes fully in the alcoholic-disease, and feels I am selfish and in denial. She can take credit for stopping Xanax on her own, but she can not take credit for stopping drinking. ---Joe Berenbaum wrote: > > At 04:47 AM 1/3/99 EST, you wrote: > >On another note, I have been seriously questioning whether or not I am > even an > >alcoholic, and this is one point I HAVE found difficult to discuss with some > >of my fellow groupers. It is true that I have had problems that I brought on > >myself while drinking excessively, that I liked to get drunk sometimes, and > >that I used it to medicate negative emotions sometimes; but these details > >alone do not an alcoholic make. In fact, I once remained totally abstinent > for > >about five years without ANY AA, RR, etc. before the last binge commenced. > How > >does one know one is an alcoholic? The AA Q & A's as well as a number of others > >I've seen seem to be insufficient; there are probably many people who fall > >within the parameters of alcoholism set by such tests who aren't alcoholic at > >all. About 85% of any college freshman class would be alcoholic by those > >standards! Is there a more reliable, realistic test for true > >alcoholism/addiction availible? In some cases it's quite obvious, not so with > >me I'm afraid. > > One way of responding to this would be to say that there is no such thing > as an " alcoholic " in the first place. It is an obsolete label that > misleads. It suggests that a person can be accurately diagnosed in such a > fashion, and that the characteristics will then be as generally undertood > for " alcoholism " . But how is such diagnosis reached? Generally, by looking > at the person's behaviour over the period of time that they have the > problem, and then extrapolating from that a condition that is supposed to > have preceeded the behaviour (!) and that will be lifelong after the > behaviour is ended. I think that the reality is that problem drinking is a > behaviour, and people can and do change their behaviour. When you no longer > do that behaviour, you are still supposed to call yourself an " alcoholic " ? > A lot of stuff comes along with the word " alcoholic " . Like the invalid > concept of the lifelong disease of " alcoholism " . The problem I had when > attending AA and NA meetings was I was continually being exposed to a > one-eyed and inaccurate view of addictive behaviour, where people were > thought to BE their behaviour, and where people were thought to not have > any responsibility for that behaviour. In such a world, a person who for a > while has problem drinking behaviour IS " an alcoholic " for life. This > assumed identity really works against the healthy resolution of the > behavioural problem the person has. I think it is bunk and pseudoscience. > That distorted identity, along with the other self-undermining ideas that > are subtly inculated even into intelligent persons if they hang around long > enough, is the last thing someone needs to deal with self-defeating > behaviour. Or to put it another way, if the resolution of your problem lies > in assuming responsibility, stopping the destructive behaviour and growing > up, then the last thing you need to be telling yourself is that your > identity is such that you are not responsible for what you do, cannot > control your own behaviour and will be subject to that limitation for the > rest of your life. In reality, you're not " an alcoholic " , you're a person > with choices, who is responsible for what they do, same as most people. > I would seriously suggest that you get hold of and read " Addiction, change > and choice " by Vince Fox. It answers many of your questions very fully. > > Joe Berenbaum > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Waiting for daily BCS updates to arrive in your inbox? > Join the ESPN.com e-group and we will deliver them to you. > http://offers./click/181/0 > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 1999 Report Share Posted January 6, 1999 Pete Watts wrote: > > (*) Is/Was this person male or female? > > Pete Pete, Marty Mann was a woman. Ken ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 11, 1999 Report Share Posted January 11, 1999 hooray for maturation~ Saturday night I helped my boyfriend move and from 6:00pm to 2:00am I had 4 beers- amazingly after the 4th beer (over an 8 hour period, in case you're not counting)I had NO DESIRE to drink anymore; in fact I had a strong desire to drink water and was perfectly content to pass on some ginger brandy also. I'm finding that my drinking behavior is totally different, and that, my friends, was my original goal. --- Mabee wrote: > > > Re: Alcoholic? > > > <LAUGH!> > > Hi, Pete--- > > I went easy on the beer New Year's--three pints over an evening's conversation, which is more than usual > but not enough to even give me a " glow " . About once a year I feel free to get roaring--but it's a extremely dull roar compared to the old days, and done under safe circumstances (i.e. at a close friend's house where I am welcome to sleep on the couch). And yes, sometimes I wake up knowing just why I don't do it more often... > > The difference is that I now get to a certain point, decide I don't want to get any drunker, and STOP. I can decide not to drink any more, and act accordingly, because though I may decide to act foolishly on occasion I am not powerless over the substance. I drink water or juice after that, the party goes on, it's no big deal. Ideally, I suppose, I would never get drunk under any circumstances, but then again it would also be ideal if I never overate at Christmas dinner, or occasionally drove really fast on winding country roads just to get that adrenalin rush. WAHOO! (I used to be fat and got a lot of speeding tickets, too. <G>) > > The Steppers are going to love this message, I am sure, but if they really feel like holding me up as an example they must really be scratching the bottom of the barrel. Guess what, folks? As far as drinking is concerned, I'm NORMAL. On 6 February will be what would have been my 10-year AA birthday. I was given a bottle of Talisker single-malt Scotch for Xmas by a dear friend, and on that day I am going to crack it open and enjoy a wee dram. I'm going to savor it as I reflect on why my life today bears no resemblance to the life I was leading ten years ago. I just might laugh at how amazing and wonderful it is... > > --- > > > Hello again > > Did the 'Marty Mann' test make a distinction between males and females as > to how much alcohol they should try to drink to dx themselves? > > On New Year's Eve I had a very large amount of alcohol for a guy who drinks > abt a pint of beer once every 3 weeks or so at the most - maybe 3 or more > measures of whisky and a litre of beer, and it had little effect on me > other than slightly enhanced merriment in the middle. The reason is that > I'm a 300lb guy and soak the stuff up like a sponge! > > Pete > > PS Just in case anyone thinks this post significant (grouper lurkers > perhaps) as indicated above, this is not a regular thing; every few years I > sometimes have a Xmas or New Year joint too. no big deal, but the smoke may > be bad for the lungs even as a one-off, so I might cut that. > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 11, 1999 Report Share Posted January 11, 1999 Heidi~ Good for you!! Now, if I weren't wondering about the genetic thing, I'd be more hopeful that I can do this with junky foods. Like you, my goal is just to eat like anyone else. The fact that you have DONE with alcohol is wonderful! My hat is off to you! Snowy >hooray for maturation~ >Saturday night I helped my boyfriend move and from 6:00pm to 2:00am I >had 4 beers- amazingly after the 4th beer (over an 8 hour period, in >case you're not counting)I had NO DESIRE to drink anymore; in fact I >had a strong desire to drink water and was perfectly content to pass >on some ginger brandy also. I'm finding that my drinking behavior is >totally different, and that, my friends, was my original goal. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 1999 Report Share Posted January 15, 1999 My best friend is just like that,too. All chocolate and junk instead of real food. I had a party once and noticed how every woman came with wine, beer, or pot, and my friend brought a whole bag of ho-ho's, and all kinds of junk. She is very skinny, too. I remember she couldn't understand why I liked to drink so much, and I couldn't understand how she could eat all that junk. At the time, I loved to cook gourmet meals-now making a sandwich is a huge bother. Interesting point- I can go to a restaurant and eat a gourmet meal, but it's like my memory banks about preparing food have been erased. If you make it, I'll eat it. But I can't be bothered to cook for myself(almost like I'm not worth it). I can feel the sense of denying (not denial)even as I write this. It's simply because I'm not happy. It's like a hunger strike. ---SnowyEagle wrote: > > > - > > >Hi Heidi! > > Thanks for the words of encouragement. > > snowy~ > > > >I absolutely believe you can do the same thing with food. I can't > >identify with the overeating thing, but I can tell you that during my > >two years in AA I lost 20 lbs. and basically lost all interest in > >food. This was not about anorexia, I have no weight issues. I could > >get really metaphysical here and go into the whole 'denying myself > >life' thing ( which I do believe ). I can tell you that I've met > >others who did not feed themselves, and the common denominator was we > >were all living lives that were very far from what we really wanted to > >be doing. I do believe there is a connection between living close to > >the heart, and how we feed ourselves. > > I do too. I think this is very much a part of it. And the " whole 'denying > myself life' thing " is, too. I started as an anorexic. I see " overeating " > as being part of the same thing - just a different symptom. I think it's > really a subconscious decision to keep anorexic, but disguise it. I live on > junkfood. That isn't " eating. " That is noneating, but being overweight > hides disguises it. > > I noticed in OA that people would truly overeat. Loads of meat, potatoes, > etc. Gag me! That will NEVER happen with me! I eat a bowl of ice cream > with cookies in place of a meal. Well, I don't any more, but that is what I > was doing. Now, I'm eating somewhat better meals, but adding cookies, etc. > Oh boy. ;-( > > >FWIW, I worked with a beautiful > >girl who was about 40lbs. over weight; the whole time I knew her she > >was going to nutritionists, dieting, trying everything to lose the > >weight with no success. I saw her recently and she had lost about > >25lbs. I asked her how she did it and she said, " Honestly, Heidi, I > >just gave up. I stopped trying and just eat whatever I want now. " I > >hope you don't think I am trivializing your experience, I just keep > >coming across more and more information similar to this. > > This is similar to what Geneen Roth advocates in her books. I think it > makes sense. > > >Also, I find the more I focus on things that interest me, the less I > >worry. I find I can be online for hours at a time researching, etc. > >and NEVER even think about a cigarette. Interesting stuff. oh well. > > Good point here, too. > > >Thanks for your support! > > You're welcome! Thanks for you encouragement and helpfulness. > > Snowy > > > > > > > > > >---SnowyEagle wrote: > >> > >> > >> Heidi~ > >> > >> Good for you!! > >> > >> Now, if I weren't wondering about the genetic thing, I'd be more > >hopeful > >> that I can do this with junky foods. > >> > >> Like you, my goal is just to eat like anyone else. The fact that > >you have > >> DONE with alcohol is wonderful! My hat is off to you! > >> > >> Snowy > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Build Your Group Headquarters at Fortune City? > http://www2.fortunecity.com/cgi-bin/homepage/estate.pl?referer=findmail > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.