Re: ARF12 - I'm done. Plato is off the NG

June 21, 1998

>

>I unsubscribed from that NG and I honestly feel a little bad about what

>happened to it. I looked in on that and read only bullshit. I haven't

got

>time for " her tits, my boyfriend, he's cute, her ass " ..... That's not

what

>I want to read when I look for a discussion of alternative methods of

>recovery and related issues. The damn thing went down hill through the

last

>several weeks. I looked at ARNA and that thing is the *same sort of

shit

>pile*. Isn't that a sparker of a coincidence?

>

It has been really frustrating to look through it lately. I don't have

time

to look at all the letters posted, and I know I've been missing some

good stuff. Even clicking over Reese, Glenn, and Damian isn't

productive, since everyone seems pissed off.

Please don't give up completely, Plato. You're really a valuable

voice, and I would hate to see the ng lose you.

Sincerely,

Fransway

>

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June 21, 1998

At 21:37 20/06/98 -0700, you wrote:

>I unsubscribed from that NG and I honestly feel a little bad about what

>happened to it. I looked in on that and read only bullshit. I haven't got

>time for " her tits, my boyfriend, he's cute, her ass " ..... That's not what

>I want to read when I look for a discussion of alternative methods of

>recovery and related issues. The damn thing went down hill through the last

>several weeks. I looked at ARNA and that thing is the *same sort of shit

>pile*. Isn't that a sparker of a coincidence?

I think possibly some people with relatively little to say are trying to

make up for lack of quality with sheer quantity. I haven't looked over the

weekend- I think that is when the most low quality contributions come in. I

think I will resume contributing a littel later, during the week. I think

if I allow myself to be silenced by idiots then the idiots win, and we all

know you can't let idiots win! So I wll continue to contribute, maybe on an

intermittent basis. It is possible to feel overwhelmed by the sheer volume

of idiocy, and of course that is what they rely on; unable to present any

meaningful argument for their case, they resort to text-bombing. They are

effectively trying to " burn dangerous books " on the internet, by swamping

the discussion they find threatening. But if I contribute stuff here and

there, then my point of view will still get " out there " , which I feel is

important. But I do think at some point there will be a moderated 12 step

free newsgroup. There needs to be one, its fairly obvious.

" alt.recovery.from-12-steps.moderated " ; sounds good to me. Existing

alongside alt.recovery.from-12-steps it would work very well. Whenever

there was an invasion of idiots, we could simply use the moderated ng for a

while, and any vulnerable people who needed to read about recovery from 12

step programs, or alternative programs, would still be able to.

Joe Berenbaum

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June 21, 1998

Re: ARF12 - I'm done. Plato is off the NG

>It has been really frustrating to look through it lately. I don't have

>time

>to look at all the letters posted, and I know I've been missing some

>good stuff. Even clicking over Reese, Glenn, and Damian isn't

>productive, since everyone seems pissed off.

>

>Please don't give up completely, Plato. You're really a valuable

>voice, and I would hate to see the ng lose you.

>

>Sincerely,

>

> Fransway

Thanks , You, Joe,Walley, Ken, Bette,, Mike, and several other

folks are not only interesting to speak with but really have alot that I

need to hear. It's just that there is SO much raw horseshit. Did you read it

lately? The thing that gets me is that sometimes I can clearly read somebody

asking some serious question about non-12-step recovery or about coping

experiences in general and " wham " plowed over by teenage crap....the latest

one is where someone _made up a person_ with a child (or some damn thing, I

think the child was made up) and wrote to another person pretending to be

the child, developing a relationship under some phoney

circumstances.......my God you talk about pathological stuff................

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June 21, 1998

At 14:09 21/06/98 -0700, you wrote:

>>It has been really frustrating to look through it lately. I don't have

>>time

>>to look at all the letters posted, and I know I've been missing some

>>good stuff. Even clicking over Reese, Glenn, and Damian isn't

>>productive, since everyone seems pissed off.

>>Please don't give up completely, Plato. You're really a valuable

>>voice, and I would hate to see the ng lose you.

>>Sincerely,

>> Fransway

>

>Thanks , You, Joe,Walley, Ken, Bette,, Mike, and several other

>folks are not only interesting to speak with but really have alot that I

>need to hear. It's just that there is SO much raw horseshit. Did you read it

>lately? The thing that gets me is that sometimes I can clearly read somebody

>asking some serious question about non-12-step recovery or about coping

>experiences in general and " wham " plowed over by teenage crap....the latest

>one is where someone _made up a person_ with a child (or some damn thing, I

>think the child was made up) and wrote to another person pretending to be

>the child, developing a relationship under some phoney

>circumstances.......my God you talk about pathological stuff................

I think there are different motives for this; Reese for example has no real

agenda other than to make other people angry. When he can do this he feels

better because then _they_ are the angry ones, and he can forget abut his

own rage. For a while. That's why he indiscriminately stirs up shit on any

newsgroup he's on- he's projecting his own anger onto other people. OTOH I

think Glenn is a true religious nutcase. He really believes he's doing

God's work, and can justify any abuse, any insanity, with that. He is the

religious right that once took drugs- a throroughly unpleasant combination

at any stage of the game! In his mind, God's work is to destroy all

opposition to God's will (circular logic) and to the 12 steps. Damien is a

hanger-on who thinks he defending NA, and doesn't seem very bright. In fact

none of them are very bright when uyou stop to think about it. The bottom

line for all of them is suppress the discussion since it makes them

uncomfortable. You might think that if it made them that uncomfortable,

they would stop to wonder why. But no. We are not dealing with highly

evolved thinkers here.

But my point is, they are successful if they get us all pissed off and

arguing on the same level as they do, feeling bad, and letting it come

across in what we send to that newsgroup. The whole secret to this, in my

opinion, is this- once you know they are trying to get you pissed off, you

have a good reason for NOT getting pissed off. Once you know they are

trying to get you pissed off along with everyone else so that there is

effectively no newsgroup, you have a very good reason for reading

selectively and posting only positive stuff. I suppose people need to make

up their own minds on how they are going to deal with it. I have no

intention, myself, of giving up. I am prepared to post stuff intermittently

if I need to take frequent breaks, but I will not disappear altogether. I

was on that ng when it started and I will be around for a long time yet.

Joe Berenbaum

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June 21, 1998

Do you think Ken will mind if I make a plug for Dr. Arthur Horvath,

President of SMART Recovery, was recently elected President of the American

Psychological Association, Division 50 (Addictions Division)

Congratulations Dr. Horvath!

Thanks Ken

Margie:)

http://expage.com/page/alcoholanddrugrecovery

Re: ARF12 - I'm done. Plato is off the NG

>At 14:09 21/06/98 -0700, you wrote:

>

>>>It has been really frustrating to look through it lately. I don't have

>>>time

>>>to look at all the letters posted, and I know I've been missing some

>>>good stuff. Even clicking over Reese, Glenn, and Damian isn't

>>>productive, since everyone seems pissed off.

>>>Please don't give up completely, Plato. You're really a valuable

>>>voice, and I would hate to see the ng lose you.

>>>Sincerely,

>>> Fransway

>>

>>Thanks , You, Joe,Walley, Ken, Bette,, Mike, and several other

>>folks are not only interesting to speak with but really have alot that I

>>need to hear. It's just that there is SO much raw horseshit. Did you read

it

>>lately? The thing that gets me is that sometimes I can clearly read

somebody

>>asking some serious question about non-12-step recovery or about coping

>>experiences in general and " wham " plowed over by teenage crap....the

latest

>>one is where someone _made up a person_ with a child (or some damn thing,

I

>>think the child was made up) and wrote to another person pretending to be

>>the child, developing a relationship under some phoney

>>circumstances.......my God you talk about pathological

stuff................

>

>I think there are different motives for this; Reese for example has no real

>agenda other than to make other people angry. When he can do this he feels

>better because then _they_ are the angry ones, and he can forget abut his

>own rage. For a while. That's why he indiscriminately stirs up shit on any

>newsgroup he's on- he's projecting his own anger onto other people. OTOH I

>think Glenn is a true religious nutcase. He really believes he's doing

>God's work, and can justify any abuse, any insanity, with that. He is the

>religious right that once took drugs- a throroughly unpleasant combination

>at any stage of the game! In his mind, God's work is to destroy all

>opposition to God's will (circular logic) and to the 12 steps. Damien is a

>hanger-on who thinks he defending NA, and doesn't seem very bright. In fact

>none of them are very bright when uyou stop to think about it. The bottom

>line for all of them is suppress the discussion since it makes them

>uncomfortable. You might think that if it made them that uncomfortable,

>they would stop to wonder why. But no. We are not dealing with highly

>evolved thinkers here.

>

>But my point is, they are successful if they get us all pissed off and

>arguing on the same level as they do, feeling bad, and letting it come

>across in what we send to that newsgroup. The whole secret to this, in my

>opinion, is this- once you know they are trying to get you pissed off, you

>have a good reason for NOT getting pissed off. Once you know they are

>trying to get you pissed off along with everyone else so that there is

>effectively no newsgroup, you have a very good reason for reading

>selectively and posting only positive stuff. I suppose people need to make

>up their own minds on how they are going to deal with it. I have no

>intention, myself, of giving up. I am prepared to post stuff intermittently

>if I need to take frequent breaks, but I will not disappear altogether. I

>was on that ng when it started and I will be around for a long time yet.

>

>Joe Berenbaum

>

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June 21, 1998