Guest guest Posted July 26, 2001 Report Share Posted July 26, 2001 Pale is said to be a symptom of arsenic poisoning; I don't know if this is true, but my son was pale skinned, too, and arsenic was coming out in his stool on chelation. Lorilyn [ ] small pupils and pale > Hi all, > My son has always had small pupils and has been rather pale. Any ideas why? > Sally > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 26, 2001 Report Share Posted July 26, 2001 Hi, My daughter's color got much better just the other day, about 6 days after adding in NAC and 2 days after adding in Folic Acid+B12 and DMG, and on the day we added in Glycine. Any theories as to why this sudden improvement? Her color has improved in the past with better digestion through digestive enzymes, but this more recent improvement seemed to restore 'normal' color. I don't think it was sun exposure, as I always compare the inside of her arm against mine. K. PS Small pupils could be a gluten reaction - see www.advimoss.no/gfcf_results n K's site. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 27, 2001 Report Share Posted July 27, 2001 One speculative possibility = Folic Acid reduces homocysteine. Excess homocysteine suppresses many neurotransmitters (dopamine, serotonin, gasprin, secretin, melatonin) and also causes an accumulation of a (acteylcholine?) that is associated with fright reactions. Perhaps a reduction in homocysteine unblocked some other process that results in pigmentation of the skin. Bob Fisher Re: [ ] small pupils and pale Hi, My daughter's color got much better just the other day, about 6 days after adding in NAC and 2 days after adding in Folic Acid+B12 and DMG, and on the day we added in Glycine. Any theories as to why this sudden improvement? Her color has improved in the past with better digestion through digestive enzymes, but this more recent improvement seemed to restore 'normal' color. I don't think it was sun exposure, as I always compare the inside of her arm against mine. K. PS Small pupils could be a gluten reaction - see www.advimoss.no/gfcf_results n K's site. ======================================================= Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 27, 2001 Report Share Posted July 27, 2001 Hi , My husband and I were having a conversation just last night about an article he was reading about folic acid and B 12 opening the vessels in the heart. It could be that you have caused better blood flow through out the body, which would lead to a better skin color. This is just a thought, but I found it interesting as we were just discussing this last night, Leah > Hi, > > My daughter's color got much better just the other day, about 6 days after > adding in NAC and 2 days after adding in Folic Acid+B12 and DMG, and on the day > we added in Glycine. Any theories as to why this sudden improvement? Her color > has improved in the past with better digestion through digestive enzymes, but > this more recent improvement seemed to restore 'normal' color. I don't think it > was sun exposure, as I always compare the inside of her arm against mine. > > K. > > PS Small pupils could be a gluten reaction - see www.advimoss.no/gfcf_results > n K's site. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 27, 2001 Report Share Posted July 27, 2001 If you are seeing both small pupils and paleness at the same time it suggests that one of the neurotransmitters in the body (not the brain) is present in excess. I don't remember offhand whether it is acetylcholine or something else, but I think these 2 go together - and there should be some other stuff too you can check to see if this is it. If any of the more physiologically aware people on list remember which neurotransmitter does this, please let us know. Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 27, 2001 Report Share Posted July 27, 2001 Mercury also interferes with the oxygen content of the blood...and circulation particularly to the extremities. S On Wed, 25 July 2001, " Lorilyn Teasdale " wrote: > > <html><body> > <tt> > Pale is said to be a symptom of arsenic poisoning; & nbsp; I don't know if this is<BR> > true, but my son was pale skinned, too, and arsenic was coming out in his<BR> > stool on chelation.<BR> > Lorilyn<BR> > [ ] small pupils and pale<BR> > <BR> > <BR> > & gt; Hi all,<BR> > & gt; My son has always had small pupils and has been rather pale. Any ideas<BR> > why?<BR> > & gt; Sally<BR> > & gt;<BR> > & gt;<BR> > & gt; Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2001 Report Share Posted July 28, 2001 Acetylcholine and/or serotonin cause pupillary constriction as do opiates. Ach does it through a direct effect on the Muscarinic-3 receptor on the pupil, serotonin through its indirect effects on the Edinger Westphal nucleus. Most of our kids seem to have more problems with pupillary dilation due to lack of cholinergic effects. Children on SSRI's or other serotonergic agents or on bethanecol or cholinergic agents will get pupillary constriction. The receptors are supersensitive due to the lack of the neurotransmitter so it doesn't take much to get the effect. Ken Sokolski Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2001 Report Share Posted July 28, 2001 > Acetylcholine and/or serotonin cause pupillary constriction as do opiates. > Ach does it through a direct effect on the Muscarinic-3 receptor on the > pupil, serotonin through its indirect effects on the Edinger Westphal > nucleus. Most of our kids seem to have more problems with pupillary dilation > due to lack of cholinergic effects. Children on SSRI's or other serotonergic > agents or on bethanecol or cholinergic agents will get pupillary > constriction. The receptors are supersensitive due to the lack of the > neurotransmitter so it doesn't take much to get the effect. > Ken Sokolski Thank you very much for this explanation! does acetylcholine or serotonin also cause pale skin? Are there any other notable effects of one or the other that might let us tell them apart based on what we see? And Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 2001 Report Share Posted July 29, 2001 Dear Andy, I always assumed the pasty, pale skin was due to some direct effect of toxicity. I have not heard of it associated with the neurotransmitters although melanin has a relationship to opioid peptides. There is pretty good data now that autism is associated with serotonergic dysregulation. There are even some genetic studies indicating abnormalities in the serotonin transporter gene or the promoter region of that gene. My belief has been that this may be one of the genetic vulnerabilities to an environmental insult. We found in a family history study as yet unpublished that major depression, migraine, chronic yeast infections, and Alzheimer's disease distinguished normal from autistic families. All of these conditions could be linked to a serotonergic deficiency. Autistic children are also exquisitely sensitive to SSRI's and readily develop tardive dyskinesia on low dosages. This indicates that the serotonin receptor is starving for neurotransmitter. Autistic children also frequently have obsessive compulsive symptoms indicative of low serotonin. They have low tryptophan/Large Neutral Amino Acid ratios like people with major depression (D'Eufemia) and multiple studies have shown abnormal platelet and blood serotonin. Depleting tryptophan will make an autistic individual worse. A lack of acetylcholine would also produce cholinergic hypersensitivity such that introduction of small amounts of cholinergic stimulus should produce hypercholinergic responses (ex. pupillary constriction). We found this in major depression and bipolar disorder. The point here seems to be that both in major depression and autism, there is a dysregulation of the serotonergic and cholinergic systems among others. The basis of this dysregulation probably has both genetic and environmental triggers. The most studied tests for cholinergic dysregulation involve REM sleep induction and temperature regulation. Most tests of serotonergic dysfunction have involved challenge tests such as fenfluramine or growth hormone challenges both of which have yielded markedly abnormal results in autism. Chugani also showed markedly decreased serotonin synthesis in autistic children. It seems that treatments which might free up serotonin synthesis should help autism or major depression. These may include: SSRI's, 5HTP, secretin, mercury chelation, and possibly treatments which decrease gut inflammation which may be using up tryptophan to make serotonin among others. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 30, 2001 Report Share Posted July 30, 2001 > Dear Andy, > I always assumed the pasty, pale skin was due to some direct effect of > toxicity. Flushing is a classic sign of chronic mercury intoxication, and acrodynia (childhood chronic mercury tox) also involved redness and flushing. Some children do seem to go pale, but I don't think it is the majority. It seems to me that it is most often the ones who don't sweat. >I have not heard of it associated with the neurotransmitters > although melanin has a relationship to opioid peptides. There is pretty good > data now that autism is associated with serotonergic dysregulation. There are > even some genetic studies indicating abnormalities in the serotonin > transporter gene or the promoter region of that gene. My belief has been that > this may be one of the genetic vulnerabilities to an environmental insult. We > found in a family history study as yet unpublished I do hope I can prevail on you for a preprint when you are ready to publish! > that major depression, > migraine, chronic yeast infections, and Alzheimer's disease distinguished > normal from autistic families. All of these conditions could be linked to a > serotonergic deficiency. Or they could all be due to heavy metal intoxication, and you could just be identifying the sensitive families. >Autistic children are also exquisitely sensitive to > SSRI's and readily develop tardive dyskinesia on low dosages. This indicates > that the serotonin receptor is starving for neurotransmitter. Autistic > children also frequently have obsessive compulsive symptoms indicative of low > serotonin. They have low tryptophan/Large Neutral Amino Acid ratios like > people with major depression (D'Eufemia) and multiple studies have shown > abnormal platelet and blood serotonin. Depleting tryptophan will make an > autistic individual worse. A lack of acetylcholine would also produce > cholinergic hypersensitivity such that introduction of small amounts of > cholinergic stimulus should produce hypercholinergic responses (ex. pupillary > constriction). We found this in major depression and bipolar disorder. The > point here seems to be that both in major depression and autism, there is a > dysregulation of the serotonergic and cholinergic systems among others. The > basis of this dysregulation probably has both genetic and environmental > triggers. The most studied tests for cholinergic dysregulation involve REM > sleep induction and temperature regulation. Most tests of serotonergic > dysfunction have involved challenge tests such as fenfluramine or growth > hormone challenges both of which have yielded markedly abnormal results in > autism. Chugani also showed markedly decreased serotonin synthesis in > autistic children. It seems that treatments which might free up serotonin > synthesis should help autism or major depression. These may include: SSRI's, > 5HTP, secretin, mercury chelation, and possibly treatments which decrease gut > inflammation which may be using up tryptophan to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 30, 2001 Report Share Posted July 30, 2001 I really wonder about the role of hormones in causing reduced expression of the relevant proteins, e.g. the enzymes to MAKE serotonin. Also note that people without adequate cortisol will have a relative elevation in the BCAA's compared to tryptophan, and it is my understanding the BCAA's are large neutral amino acids. Also, addisonian patients do have emotional disturbance pretty reminiscent of too little serotonin, which cortisol corrects. And Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 31, 2001 Report Share Posted July 31, 2001 Paleness - Thanks for the folic acid link. I had time to think about paleness over the weekend and finally recalled more about paleness. Practially all dietary improvements helped my daughter's paleness. This would fall into the 'environmental insult' category, I guess. She's had many dietary improvements over much time, and I recall that they all improved her color somewhat. The removal of gluten and casein, and supplementation of fatty acids, were especially important, as I recall. The other paleness link that I finally remembered is that she became noticably more pale after a couple rounds of IV DMPS chelation. The palenss gradually went back to her baseline color after a few months after the injections were stopped. Her liver numbers were up during this period, and I assumed (don't know) that these 2 things were linked and that liver strain was a big factor in the increased paleness. So my advice would be that if you kid is chelating and becoming pale, take a break and see if that helps, and/or get some blood work done. And of course (from me, a big diet advocate) improve the diet to improve the body's functioning. And I guess, try the folic acid. Just my ideas, not medical advice, of course. K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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