Re: newgroup is gettin' to be a waste o' time

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/17/98 1:12:30 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

delta5@... writes:

<< I guess I want to voice my saddness at the soiling of a good newsgroup.

alt.recovery.from-12-steps was a fantastic idea; one which is counciousness

raising and a reassurance to many. The grotesque little bastards that

mass-post hostile one liners have made wading through their mess too much of

a time consuming chore. I am sorry that they can have the opportunity to

screw up such a thing. >>

Welcome to the 'real' world of UseNet newsgroups. In this " world " you'll find

trolls, (f)lamers, autospammers, etc.

But don't give up, there IS an occassional voice of reason that emerges from

all these useless flame wars, troll-bashing, etc.

: )

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[Guest guest]

newgroup is gettin' to be a waste o' time

>

>I guess I want to voice my saddness at the soiling of a good newsgroup.

>alt.recovery.from-12-steps was a fantastic idea; one which is counciousness

>raising and a reassurance to many. The grotesque little bastards that

>mass-post hostile one liners have made wading through their mess too much

of

>a time consuming chore. I am sorry that they can have the opportunity to

>screw up such a thing.

>

Ah, but they don't have that power. Sorry if some of you have heard me say

this before and I'm starting to sound like a broken record, but the answer

is....

killfiles and filters

All the newsreaders I have used (nn, tin, Microsoft Outlook, and dejanews

-- which is not really a newsreader, but works like one) give you the means

to not see any posts from people you'd rather not hear from. It may take

a little research and digging to find out how your software works, but it's

worth the effort.

Today all you'd have to do is exclude the 2 principal offenders from

" their side " -- Reese and Glenn S. -- and the 2 principal enabling co-trolls

from " our side " -- Kim and Markus -- and you'd only have about 100

posts to go through. You could go further by filtering to eliminate

crossposts and add a few more subordinate trolls to the killfile

and get it down to maybe 50, but you might miss a couple of good

posts doing this.

' Course it takes a little discipline to avoid 'peeking' now and then

Wally T.

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[Guest guest]

At 16:37 17/06/98 EDT, you wrote:

>In a message dated 6/17/98 1:12:30 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

>delta5@... writes:

>

><< I guess I want to voice my saddness at the soiling of a good newsgroup.

> alt.recovery.from-12-steps was a fantastic idea; one which is

>counciousness raising and a reassurance to many. The grotesque little

>bastards that mass-post hostile one liners have made wading through their

>mess too much of a time consuming chore. I am sorry that they can have the

>opportunity to screw up such a thing. >>

>

>Welcome to the 'real' world of UseNet newsgroups. In this " world " you'll

>find>trolls, (f)lamers, autospammers, etc.

>But don't give up, there IS an occassional voice of reason that emerges

>from>all these useless flame wars, troll-bashing, etc.

>: )

Part of the problem is that the whole idea of a newsgroup dedicated to

helping people get away from the 12 step dogma and find alternatives is

threatening to a lot of people. Trolling to reduce the usefulness of such a

newsgroup is probably inevitable. Trolling is also easier there too because

the topic of the newsgroup is stuff that many people are angry about- it is

easy to troll among a lot of angry people.

I think it is possible to keep it functioning but it is very hard- ignoring

the negative posters and contributing positive stuff, bat that is easier

said than done. It sounds simple, but the lure of easily putting down some

silly argument is very strong, and it can lead to stronger arguments

without realising what is happening! I think I do understand this- in

theory- I have been observing these antics for a couple of years now- but I

suddenly realised yesterday that I had somehow got myself into negative

posting even though I wasn't really reading any of it. I had somehow got to

be very angry and was trying to right the perceived injustice, which leads,

for me, directly back into the fray. Amazing. Arguing can be very

addictive. And it can drive you insane- well if you're me, it can.

I think one answer might be a moderated newsgroup- they exist in some

numbers for topics where the incoming fire or off-topic posts made it

unworkable as a normal newsgroup. I feel really strongly that a newsgroup

that makes this kind of information and discussion possible for anyone who

can get newsgroups is potentially a great resource. A mail list is great

but it isn't quite the same- you have to subscribe to participate and a lot

of people will not hear about it or not bother, who probably would read

what is on a newsgroup. A mail list may however be a better option for me

personally to participate in! I don't know what is actually involved in

running a moderated newsgroup. If anyone does know I would be really

interested to know about it.

Joe Berenbaum

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[Guest guest]

Hi Joe, everyone

here

You said

I think one answer might be a moderated newsgroup- they exist in some

numbers for topics where the incoming fire or off-topic posts made it

unworkable as a normal newsgroup. I feel really strongly that a newsgroup

that makes this kind of information and discussion possible for anyone who

can get newsgroups is potentially a great resource. A mail list is great

but it isn't quite the same- you have to subscribe to participate and a lot

of people will not hear about it or not bother, who probably would read

what is on a newsgroup. A mail list may however be a better option for me

personally to participate in! I don't know what is actually involved in

running a moderated newsgroup. If anyone does know I would be really

interested to know about it.

on arf12s knows how to do it. He said it would be hard. He's talked

about doing it before.

" Keep coming back, it squirts! "

......Bob Wicks

Joe Berenbaum

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[Guest guest]

At 10:19 PM 6/17/98, Joe Berenbaum wrote:

>At 16:37 17/06/98 EDT, you wrote:

>>In a message dated 6/17/98 1:12:30 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

>>delta5@... writes:

>>

>><< I guess I want to voice my saddness at the soiling of a good newsgroup.

>> alt.recovery.from-12-steps was a fantastic idea; one which is

>>counciousness raising and a reassurance to many. The grotesque little

>>bastards that mass-post hostile one liners have made wading through their

>>mess too much of a time consuming chore. I am sorry that they can have the

>>opportunity to screw up such a thing. >>

>>

>>Welcome to the 'real' world of UseNet newsgroups. In this " world " you'll

>>find>trolls, (f)lamers, autospammers, etc.

Yes, but not on every newsgroup. I'm happy with rec.music.makers.builders,

and while there's lots of traffic on rec.woodworking, the biggest arguments

I've seen were in threads titled " Norm is a jerk " and " Norm is NOT a jerk "

(referring to Norm Abrams). At least it was all on topic; how to work with

wood even with strong differences of opinion. I've never seen a post on

either of these groups to the effect that woodworking or guitarmaking were

stupid or inappropriate activities.

>>But don't give up, there IS an occassional voice of reason that emerges

>>from>all these useless flame wars, troll-bashing, etc.

>>: )

Well, yes, I even saw that on alt.recovery.aa within the past year when

I was reading it and Ken R and maybe a couple of others were trolling, er,

posting there...

>

>Part of the problem is that the whole idea of a newsgroup dedicated to

>helping people get away from the 12 step dogma and find alternatives is

>threatening to a lot of people. Trolling to reduce the usefulness of such a

The topic does seem to attract as many trolls as would (or perhaps does)

alt.religion.satanism among christians. And from my experience of having been

on the other side of the fence, 12-steppers think of arf12s the same way.

I haven't forgotten the slogans and saying that personalise and demonize

'this disease of alcoholism' - " When I'm sitting here in a meeting enjoying

my coffee and cigarrettes, my disease is outside in the parking lot doing

pushups. "

>newsgroup is probably inevitable. Trolling is also easier there too because

>the topic of the newsgroup is stuff that many people are angry about- it is

>easy to troll among a lot of angry people.

And looking at the opposite direction, 12-steppers get upset that there

are people with the audacity to think that something outside the 12-step

programs could work. Just the existence of both groups on the same world-

wide network is bound to be explosive.

{ off-topic aside: to read about similar pyrotechnics, just type Amway

or Scientology at any web search engine }

>I think it is possible to keep it functioning but it is very hard- ignoring

>the negative posters and contributing positive stuff, bat that is easier

>said than done. It sounds simple, but the lure of easily putting down some

I have noticed in recent days over 20 messages a day of taunting troll

posts from Glenn S. I think this fully explains his note on his web page,

<http://www.erols.com/glenns1956/>, the link (Click here to read a personal

note, dated April 15, 1998.) in which he explains that due to overtime on

the job he hasn't had time to update his web page. Doing a quick search

for GlennS1956.remove.this@..., it appears that all his free time is

spent posting on arf12s.

Apparently someone did complain as I described, and then posted the fact

on the newsgroup. Glenn of course acted shameless, doing even more taunting,

promising to get other accounts from other ISP's to continue his posts. But I

did notice that was one of his last messages with the quote about stupidity

on arf12s in the tagline (none of the messages I've read from him in the last

couple of days have this), so apparently someone from his ISP did say

something to him.

>I think one answer might be a moderated newsgroup- they exist in some

>numbers for topics where the incoming fire or off-topic posts made it

>unworkable as a normal newsgroup.

One need only search for 'moderated' in the list of newsgroups to find

them.

I feel really strongly that a newsgroup

>that makes this kind of information and discussion possible for anyone who

>can get newsgroups is potentially a great resource. A mail list is great

>but it isn't quite the same- you have to subscribe to participate and a lot

>of people will not hear about it or not bother, who probably would read

>what is on a newsgroup. A mail list may however be a better option for me

>personally to participate in! I don't know what is actually involved in

>running a moderated newsgroup. If anyone does know I would be really

>interested to know about it.

You might try finding someone 'in charge' of an existing moderated

group and ask them.

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[Guest guest]

Hi all! I meant to subscribe earlier but as most of you saw, I was kind of

occupied <g>. Bette forwarded me this thread about moderating the newsgroup

so that I could see what had been said before I jumped in and ran my mouth.

Anyway, I know some of you may not take this seriously as you probably

consider me part of the problem. I agree that my behavior the last couple of

days has been atrocious and I apologize to anyone who was offended. But, I am

against moderating the newsgroup for a variety of reasons and as a regular

poster there (who aside from this week, really does contribute), I wanted to

give you my perspective.

1. Believe it or not, crossposting helps people. I left the 12-steps and

started posting to arf12s because of a very similar situation. While I wasn't

in the flame war, I read a pretty serious dispute between the two groups with

Reese, Ken, and in the lead. That's when I realized what I did and

didn't want. I didn't want the 12 steps and I didn't want to be like the

people who were posting from arna. And since the people from arf12s made

sense, I thought I'd give something else a try. Without crossposting, I never

would have known there was another way. (I'd heard of RR and SMART, of

course, but I believed the propaganda about them) There have been several

people who have said the same thing so I know that it's not just me. I would

gladly wade through the bullshit so that someone who needed to hear the

message, heard it. I had given up hope. Crossposting changed that.

2. Censorship is wrong. Anyone who doesn't have a killfile or filter can

skip the posts that they don't want to read. I don't think anyone should have

the power to determine what everyone else *should* read. It just feels like

communism to me. Personally, I would like to determine how much crap I read,

not someone else. What's crap to one person may be helpful to another. Where

do you draw the line? What's likely happen is that certain people are going

to get filtered automatically and even if they ever did a serious post, no one

would see it. And what if those of us who are regulars get into a

disagreement? There are people on arf12s that piss me off. Do I have to

watch what I post to make it past the censors? I just don't like it.

3. It's lame. Granted, Reese and others (myself included occasionally) take

some things *way* too far but I do believe that fair is fair (to an extent).

Captainusa, Markus, and others regularly post anti-12 step stuff to arna and

araa. When they want to retalliate (not that I condone vengeance) are we

going to say, " Na na na, you can't post here. " I fell like I'm in the 3rd

grade. It almost seems like we can give it but we can't take it. One could

effectively argue that we wanted to protect ourselves from hearing opposing

viewpoints.

4. Some of the biggest assholes turn out to be great assets to the newsgroup.

(No, I'm not talking about Reese, I don't expect a change of heart from him)

But, there have been 2 or 3 people who have viciously attacked me for leaving

the fellowship. One of them responded to almost every post of mine in a rude

way. Weeks later, he read Trimpey's book and realized that there may be a

better way. He started posting to arf12s and has a lot of good insights. The

others didn't convert but they did become more understanding and I think it

helped bridge the gap between steppers and non-steppers. To me, it doesn't so

much matter what program a person chooses. We all have the same problem and

we all need help. I don't think all the animosity is necessary.

5. For those who think the newsgroup is too " harsh " , there are censored list

servers. We have this one, x-aa, addict-l, smart, etc. Those who don't want

all the crap have plenty of places to post. But for those of us who like some

of the crossposting and who think it can help people, can't we have one place

where we are free to post as we please? I notice that a lot of people who are

for moderation haven't been on the newsgroup that long. Which means you've

only seen the bad side of crossposting. This particular flame war was pretty

pathetic but some of them are really good. When it doesn't digress into

namecalling, it's a wonderful way to see other views and either strengthen or

re-evaluate your own.

Anyway, I am adamantly against moderating the newsgroup but if I'm outvoted

there is nothing I can do. I would like to suggest though, that if you are

really serious about it, can we consider having 2 newsgroups? That way, those

who want it moderated can go there and those who don't can stay as is. Or, if

it comes down to it, anyone know how I can start a newsgroup? <g>

Thanks for listening.

Kim

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[Guest guest]

You do have a good argument here, Joe. If there were also a m oderated

group, I would use both groups, unless the one became too moderated,

if you know what I mean. I just hope we aren't driven to moderate the one

we have. I went and looked at arna today. Its actually in more chaos

than ours is. Talk about smoking ruin, sheesh, go have a look.

Right now, thanks to Markus, Captain, Kim, and some of the others,

anyone who comes to araa or arna is going to get both sides of the

story.

Joe said:

>This is a good point. The problem with the present arrangement is that

>although it is very easy, if you are determined to do so, to skip posts, I

>do not believe that people who come to arf12s looking for help will

>necessarily know that, or will be prepared to hang around long enough to

>find out. A number of people who seek recovery from 12 step programs are in

>a vulnerable state I would think, and have been systematically

>psychologically abused and undermined already, sometimes for years. My own

>feeling is that some sort of easily accessible safe newsgroup environment

>would be very supportive for those people. To come to arf12s and see that

>many and often most of the posts are from abusive 12 steppers- arf12s is

>not going to appear as a very safe environment. And it isn't. It is a

>little like a womens' refuge where wife-beaters are allowed to come and

>shout at them, all in the interests of free speech, of having a " point of

>view " , and someone saying- well, just don't listen. It is appropriate for

>people who have already been abused to have a forum where the abuse is not

>allowed to get through. People don't _have_ to read the abusive posts, but

>they often will. I think quite possibly some of the less brave and

>determined people may be baling out of arf12s altogether, getting the

>message that there is no escape from the 12 step virus. I think the reject

>human Reese and the " troll-for-Christ " Glenn carry an insidious message of

>hopelessness to such people. They are the psychological equivalent to

>wife-beaters. They come to arf12s mock the wounded, and the gloat over

>their ability to walk straight in and do so. What they do has nothing to do

>with free speech, and everything to do with abuse.

>

>In the UK, only recently has there been serious moves to stop the process

>of rape victimes being cross-examined for three days at a time in the

>witness box by the person charged with their rape. It is patently obvious

>to many that in that situation, the rapist is taking advantage of the legal

>option of simply re-abusing the victim a second time, in public. My point

>is that a parallel to this is now happening in internet newsgroups also.

>There is still no safe newsgroup where people recovering, or hoping to

>recover from ther 12 step experiences can say what they want without being

>abused by steppers all over again.

>

>The creation of a moderated newsgroup would not change the status of an

>existing one. The present usenet ng arf12s can and will remain as it is.

>Neither I, nor anyone else, can un-create it. My point was, and is, that

>the creation of a moderated _alternative_ newsgroup for people who do not

>want to deal with the garbage that is flowing into arf12s would be a good

>idea. Anyone who has objections to participating in such a newsgroup need

>not participate in it. Therefore anyone who is concerned about censorship

>can continue with things the way they are on arf12s- a moderated newsgroup

>would be there for those who wanted it. Nobody would or could be forced to

>participate.

>

>Personally, I think the censorship argument is somewhat of a red herring.

>No-one is proposing censoring any existing newsgroup, not would that be

>possible. If you subscribe to an email list and then abuse people, you get

>unsubscribed. This has happened here within the last 24 hours. Where are

>the cries of " censorship! " for that? A moderated newsgroup would simply

>make the same discussion, free of the repetetive abuse, accessible to

>anyone with a newsreader or web browser. It would not take anything away

>from the present options, not would it stop anyone making their views heard

>on any non-moderated newsgroup.

>

>Joe Berenbaum

>

>

>

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