Guest guest Posted June 23, 1999 Report Share Posted June 23, 1999 barry beyerstein wrote about this " Paradoxical Belifs About Badness, Sickness, and Addiction " at http://bcrecovernet.org/articles/paradoxical_beliefs_about_badnes.htm I read it last night and it explains why the shift to medical model of addictions is inadequate and paternalistic. Carol At 09:54 PM 6/23/99 +0200, you wrote: >Hi. > >Could anybody explain the mutual interests between AA and medical >science? > >The explanation so far on the net goes about like this: The medicine >science is canvassing the view that all addictions are a result of a >disease of the brain. XA's are working cheap, as their survival are >dependent on helping fellow XA'ers. > >The mutual benefit is as follows: > >The medicine science gets a powerful lobby through TV etc. expressing >the view that those addictions are diseases. > >AA gets a recognition from the most estimated people (the doctors) that >their condition is a result of an inherited disease. > >Therefore: Science will soon discover a medical therapy that will make >the sufferings of alcoholics unnecessary. > >But until the realization of this scientific progress it's necessary for >diseased subjects to participate in XA. Because the society doesn't >understand. And because your mind have been twisted by your disease. > >Comments? > >Bjørn. > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Don't let the next virus knock you out! Special Offer to eGroups members >Install @Backup by June 30th and win a $100 Gift Certificate from Amazon >.com and @Backup free for a year! http://clickhere./click/363 > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > > > > --- Up With People! Visit: Information on recovery alternatives at Http:\\www.BCRecovernet.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 1999 Report Share Posted June 23, 1999 At 01:53 PM 6/23/99 -0700, you wrote: >barry beyerstein wrote about this " Paradoxical Belifs About Badness, >Sickness, and Addiction " at >http://bcrecovernet.org/articles/paradoxical_beliefs_about_badnes.htm > > >I read it last night and it explains why the shift to medical model of >addictions is inadequate and paternalistic. > >Carol It is very interesting and I liked it a lot, that is until I got to this part, at which point my interst started to fade somewhat; >The strong lobbying efforts of patient support groups promoting an organic rather than psychological etiology for so-called " chronic fatigue syndrome " reflect this lingering abhorrence of psychological explanations for malaise (Shorter, 1992). The problem I have with this is that the reality is not really at all like it sounds when he puts it that way. I have this illness and I know it is physcial, my hospital consultant says it is, and she is a specialist in this area working in the UK's most prestigious teaching (and research) hospital. I have read the scientific research. A growing body of this research has shown that patients who have the severe chronic fatigue illness that is usually called " Chronic Fatigue Syndrome " do in fact have a variety of real, physical abnormalites in a number of body systems indicating that what they have is a real physical illness. Under such circumstances the lobbying by patient groups to promote a proper understanding of the ilness makes perfect sense. It is the strange and paradoxical desire of many uninformed physicians and psychologists to treat this physical illness as if it was " all in the mind " , as this article subtly suggests that it is, that is the irrational and damaging behaviour here. Joe Berenbaum mailto:joe-b@... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 1999 Report Share Posted June 23, 1999 cfs is definitely organic caused by who knows what. Maybe the environment. It has another name ME and there are support and medical research. Not all is known and there is a bias that the disorder is psychosomatic. The author obviously didn't know but the points on switching to a disease medical model are true. There is no " treatment " for alcoholism. Carol At 01:20 AM 6/24/99 +0100, you wrote: >At 01:53 PM 6/23/99 -0700, you wrote: >>barry beyerstein wrote about this " Paradoxical Belifs About Badness, >>Sickness, and Addiction " at >>http://bcrecovernet.org/articles/paradoxical_beliefs_about_badnes.htm >> >> >>I read it last night and it explains why the shift to medical model of >>addictions is inadequate and paternalistic. >> >>Carol > >It is very interesting and I liked it a lot, that is until I got to this >part, at which point my interst started to fade somewhat; > >>The strong lobbying efforts of patient support groups promoting an organic >rather than psychological etiology for so-called " chronic fatigue syndrome " >reflect this lingering abhorrence of psychological explanations for malaise >(Shorter, 1992). > >The problem I have with this is that the reality is not really at all like >it sounds when he puts it that way. I have this illness and I know it is >physcial, my hospital consultant says it is, and she is a specialist in >this area working in the UK's most prestigious teaching (and research) >hospital. I have read the scientific research. A growing body of this >research has shown that patients who have the severe chronic fatigue >illness that is usually called " Chronic Fatigue Syndrome " do in fact have a >variety of real, physical abnormalites in a number of body systems >indicating that what they have is a real physical illness. Under such >circumstances the lobbying by patient groups to promote a proper >understanding of the ilness makes perfect sense. It is the strange and >paradoxical desire of many uninformed physicians and psychologists to treat >this physical illness as if it was " all in the mind " , as this article >subtly suggests that it is, that is the irrational and damaging behaviour here. > >Joe Berenbaum >mailto:joe-b@... > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >FreeShop is the #1 place for free and trial offers and great deals! >Try something new and discover more ways to save! >http://clickhere./click/381 > > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > > > > --- Up With People! Visit: Information on recovery alternatives at Http:\\www.BCRecovernet.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 1999 Report Share Posted June 23, 1999 At 06:24 PM 6/23/99 -0700, you wrote: >cfs is definitely organic caused by who knows what. Maybe the environment. >It has another name ME and there are support and medical research. Not all >is known and there is a bias that the disorder is psychosomatic. The author >obviously didn't know but the points on switching to a disease medical >model are true. There is no " treatment " for alcoholism. > >Carol No, I know, the rest of what he says is really good. After I posted that I read the rest. I just tend to react nowadays (and regard that as a healthy thing!) when I read misinformation about ME especially when it is written by a professional who should know better and who is writing from a perspective of prejudice rather than science. A lot of people with ME are learning to react. We have found that without it we tend to get walked all over, often lose our state benefits and get treated with colossal idiocy by ignorant doctors with strangely aggressive attitudes. All of that has happened to me, some of it several times- now I stand up for msyelf and make a well worded complaint to whatever professional body I can. The message is getting through, gradually. There is now a ME Action UK list that I am involved in to some extent. Sometimes you just gotta fight the idiocy, or it just carries on. Joe Berenbaum mailto:joe-b@... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 1999 Report Share Posted June 23, 1999 Hey Joe; I think it's pretty well accepted that " Chronic Fatigue Syndrome " is the result of several systems malfunctioning in what would otherwise be minor, if they didn't happen in bunches. Rose was originally diagnosed as chronic fatigue, but that was later changed to Fibromyalgia, which produces similar symptoms. I think the psychological part of chronic fatigue or Fibromyalgia is a result of the physical, plus time. The stuff just wears a person right into the ground and Rose gets to the point where she just can't go another inch, she's done for a while. Then if she's down and can't do the things she wants for three or four days, along comes depression and makes the cycle longer. She takes Prozac along with the specifics for the Fybromyalgia and the arthritus that she has. The Prozac does a pretty fair job of heading off the depression, not 100%, but a lot better than before she was taking it. If I remember right Chronic Fatigue Syndrome defied diagnosis for a long time because the tests for the physical ailments were within normal limits. However when looked at overall, too many were near the far ends of the limits. If you buy a car and all the cylinders in the engine are near the + end of the tolerance range and all the pistons are at the - limit of tolerance, you've bought a new car that will use oil, yet all systems are within tolerance. Combine that with the same luck in the transmission and you got big time trouble, yet everything is within tolerance. Same is true with medical tests on the body, they have ranges generally, not just one target figure. Best analogy I could think of. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 1999 Report Share Posted June 23, 1999 At 08:15 PM 6/23/99 -0600, you wrote: >Hey Joe; > >I think it's pretty well accepted that " Chronic Fatigue Syndrome " is >the result of several systems malfunctioning in what would >otherwise be minor, if they didn't happen in bunches. > >Rose was originally diagnosed as chronic fatigue, but that was >later changed to Fibromyalgia, which produces similar symptoms. There is a number of people claiming improvement and even cure of fibro with a relatively inactive drug called guaifenesin. She (or you) might like to take a look at the web page that explains this- I keep meaning to try this myself but I haven't yet; http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Spa/5252/ >I think the psychological part of chronic fatigue or Fibromyalgia is a >result of the physical, plus time. The stuff just wears a person right >into the ground and Rose gets to the point where she just can't go >another inch, she's done for a while. Then if she's down and can't >do the things she wants for three or four days, along comes >depression and makes the cycle longer. She takes Prozac along >with the specifics for the Fybromyalgia and the arthritus that she >has. The Prozac does a pretty fair job of heading off the >depression, not 100%, but a lot better than before she was taking it. The thing is, and this is what makes the psychologist's and shrink's assertions that ME/CFS is psychological so stupid- we already know that many serious and disabling physical illness have a psychological component. It is well known. Cancer, heart disease, multiple sclerosis, you name it- you do a psychological profile of these patients and you can find the same tenuous evidence that they have a psychological problem. Of course they have, they are very ill! It fucks your head up! Yet in the case of ME/CFS this well known phenomenon is taken to signify something entirely different- that the cause of the illness is itself psychological. It is junk science. With a certain amount of stupidity, prejudice and hypocrisy mixed in there too, I think, based on some of the doctors I have dealt with in the past. >If I remember right Chronic Fatigue Syndrome defied diagnosis for a >long time because the tests for the physical ailments were within >normal limits. However when looked at overall, too many were near >the far ends of the limits. If you buy a car and all the cylinders in >the engine are near the + end of the tolerance range and all the >pistons are at the - limit of tolerance, you've bought a new car that >will use oil, yet all systems are within tolerance. Combine that >with the same luck in the transmission and you got big time >trouble, yet everything is within tolerance. > >Same is true with medical tests on the body, they have ranges >generally, not just one target figure. > >Best analogy I could think of. > > As I understand it, it isn't just a case of everything being at an extreme end of yet still within the normal range, but lots of systems being affected- there really are things that are WAY out of whack. There are well-established tests that can be done that show clear physical abnormalities in the brain and central nervous system, but they are scans and are expensive to perform. But they are there. Plus a few years ago, they also found reduced blood supply to part of the brain (in some particular kind of brain scans) in a pattern that is not found in depressed patients, and is thought to be unique to ME/CFS. Plus now two new potential dignostic tests- cortisol levels are different from healthy patients (also in a unique way I think), and some very new research showing abnormal response to light in the eye (and brain?) that is also thought to be unique. So there are a whole lot of physical abnormalities to find. And then of course there are the abnormal ratios of muscle fibres found in ME patients when muscle biopsies are performed, and of course abrnormalities in the immune system and so on. That is what makes these psychologising doctors' behaviour so criminally stupid. The proof that is is a physical condition is there. They just like to ignore it. Joe Berenbaum mailto:joe-b@... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 25, 1999 Report Share Posted June 25, 1999 Isn't Chronic Fatique associated with Epstein Barr which is caused by the same virus that causes mononucleosis? And when you have mono, you are very tired (fatiqued?) for quite a few weeks. Jan Re: AA/ Brain industry? >cfs is definitely organic caused by who knows what. Maybe the environment. >It has another name ME and there are support and medical research. Not all >is known and there is a bias that the disorder is psychosomatic. The author >obviously didn't know but the points on switching to a disease medical >model are true. There is no " treatment " for alcoholism. > >Carol > > >At 01:20 AM 6/24/99 +0100, you wrote: >>At 01:53 PM 6/23/99 -0700, you wrote: >>>barry beyerstein wrote about this " Paradoxical Belifs About Badness, >>>Sickness, and Addiction " at >>>http://bcrecovernet.org/articles/paradoxical_beliefs_about_badnes.htm >>> >>> >>>I read it last night and it explains why the shift to medical model of >>>addictions is inadequate and paternalistic. >>> >>>Carol >> >>It is very interesting and I liked it a lot, that is until I got to this >>part, at which point my interst started to fade somewhat; >> >>>The strong lobbying efforts of patient support groups promoting an organic >>rather than psychological etiology for so-called " chronic fatigue syndrome " >>reflect this lingering abhorrence of psychological explanations for malaise >>(Shorter, 1992). >> >>The problem I have with this is that the reality is not really at all like >>it sounds when he puts it that way. I have this illness and I know it is >>physcial, my hospital consultant says it is, and she is a specialist in >>this area working in the UK's most prestigious teaching (and research) >>hospital. I have read the scientific research. A growing body of this >>research has shown that patients who have the severe chronic fatigue >>illness that is usually called " Chronic Fatigue Syndrome " do in fact have a >>variety of real, physical abnormalites in a number of body systems >>indicating that what they have is a real physical illness. Under such >>circumstances the lobbying by patient groups to promote a proper >>understanding of the ilness makes perfect sense. It is the strange and >>paradoxical desire of many uninformed physicians and psychologists to treat >>this physical illness as if it was " all in the mind " , as this article >>subtly suggests that it is, that is the irrational and damaging behaviour >here. >> >>Joe Berenbaum >>mailto:joe-b@... >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>FreeShop is the #1 place for free and trial offers and great deals! >>Try something new and discover more ways to save! >>http://clickhere./click/381 >> >> >> >>eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free >> - Simplifying group communications >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >--- >Up With People! > >Visit: Information on recovery alternatives at >Http:\\www.BCRecovernet.org > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Its Free!! Hit Music,MP3,horoscopes,audiobooks!! >Click to Listen now! >http://clickhere./click/380 > > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 25, 1999 Report Share Posted June 25, 1999 I cannot begin to express my relief in finding this group for my husbands sake as well as my own. Our stories are the same as yours, and I am still outraged that we both fell for the AA doctrine hook line and sinker. I am so excited to live my life. And when Jack Trimpney told me about the Beast and what things in life were my own choice, I did not even want to drink, now that I knew that I could. Childish, yes, but also very human. Thank You Thank You Thank You ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 25, 1999 Report Share Posted June 25, 1999 Hi ; That pinpoint of light that sort of gets bigger and maybe forms a shape such as a rough horse shoe or circle is the aura that I was talking about. Rose and I both use Darvocet N-100's. Also laying the body down is a must or they can last days. Two Darvocet and lay down as soon as that aura starts and two hours or so later all is ok. I know of no medication that will consistently allow Rose or myself to just keep on going with one. If I try it I wind up throwing up and the whole nine yards. I just give in. However, once I made the decision that it was OK to give in and rest, the headaches got farther apart. Last one I had was while we were moving last July. Oh, I almost forgot, I also keep Anti-vert, which is a much milder anti-emetic than that Compazine, but works just as well for me. The Generic name is Meclizine. Basically it's a sophisticated form of drammamine, but works well for me. I don't believe it's any relative of Compazine, but I could be wrong on that. I get some bad results from most of the Chlorapromazine drugs such as compazine, thorazine et al. My prescription says one or two every 4 hours and that would be high for a 25mg Chlorapromazine drug. That's why I don't believe Meclizine is a relative of compazine. Also they it put in over the counter motion sickness stuff which I doubt they would if it belonged to that family. Rose and I both try to use the mildest drug possible that will work. The Darvocet only works if I lay down. It will knock it for long enough to fall asleep. When I wake up, I may still be a little rocky but the headache has passed. Migraines are nothing to fool with. They are serious business and I need to treat myself like the sick person I am when they come on. It doesn't make a damn what causes it when I'm having an attack. I pamper myself just as I would if I had pneumonia. A migraine is my body saying " I've had enough and I need some rest, if you don't give me that rest you will pay dearly! " These stresses are the same that will come with the flu or other seious ailments. It's not " All in my head " other than that's where it begins hurting. I'm adamant about this because AA taught me " Well it's just stress, if I relax here for a minute it should go away " Then I'd beat myself up when it didn't! NO MORE! If it means missing work, so be it. Anyone who has had or knows someone who has migraines knows how serious they are. Why be sick for days when you stand a good chance knocking it in 4 hours or so if you attack it immediately with the proper drugs and rest? Take that time and pamper yourself, no guilt, no apology, you cannot legitimately apologize for something you cannot control. AA's religion teaches us in a backhanded way that these things are our punishments from God. It reinforces a fear in us that this is true, well it's not, it's a lie we've bought into and need to unlearn. We are not damned we are just people who developed some unhealthy behaviors. The NEED for these behaviors was forced on us against our will. Would we punish a child for being the victim of a kidnapping, telling them they should have known better? Why not it's the way we treat ouselves. So long it takes to learn such simple things about the way we feel toward ourselves and then do something about it. The something is treating ourselves with Tender Loving Care. We deserve it and need it. We grow old, cynical and bitter otherwise. Be very careful about the way you treat yourself, you are a fragile human being like I am. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 26, 1999 Report Share Posted June 26, 1999 (chuckle) I don't think they are related strains. Just hope the Roseanne Barr virus is not contagious. Jan Re: AA/ Brain industry? >> >> >> >cfs is definitely organic caused by who knows what. Maybe the environment. >> >It has another name ME and there are support and medical research. Not all >> >is known and there is a bias that the disorder is psychosomatic. The author >> >obviously didn't know but the points on switching to a disease medical >> >model are true. There is no " treatment " for alcoholism. >> > >> >Carol >> > >> > >> >At 01:20 AM 6/24/99 +0100, you wrote: >> >>At 01:53 PM 6/23/99 -0700, you wrote: >> >>>barry beyerstein wrote about this " Paradoxical Belifs About Badness, >> >>>Sickness, and Addiction " at >> >>>http://bcrecovernet.org/articles/paradoxical_beliefs_about_badnes.htm >> >>> >> >>> >> >>>I read it last night and it explains why the shift to medical model of >> >>>addictions is inadequate and paternalistic. >> >>> >> >>>Carol >> >> >> >>It is very interesting and I liked it a lot, that is until I got to this >> >>part, at which point my interst started to fade somewhat; >> >> >> >>>The strong lobbying efforts of patient support groups promoting an >> organic >> >>rather than psychological etiology for so-called " chronic fatigue >> syndrome " >> >>reflect this lingering abhorrence of psychological explanations for >> malaise >> >>(Shorter, 1992). >> >> >> >>The problem I have with this is that the reality is not really at all like >> >>it sounds when he puts it that way. I have this illness and I know it is >> >>physcial, my hospital consultant says it is, and she is a specialist in >> >>this area working in the UK's most prestigious teaching (and research) >> >>hospital. I have read the scientific research. A growing body of this >> >>research has shown that patients who have the severe chronic fatigue >> >>illness that is usually called " Chronic Fatigue Syndrome " do in fact have >> a >> >>variety of real, physical abnormalites in a number of body systems >> >>indicating that what they have is a real physical illness. Under such >> >>circumstances the lobbying by patient groups to promote a proper >> >>understanding of the ilness makes perfect sense. It is the strange and >> >>paradoxical desire of many uninformed physicians and psychologists to >> treat >> >>this physical illness as if it was " all in the mind " , as this article >> >>subtly suggests that it is, that is the irrational and damaging behaviour >> >here. >> >> >> >>Joe Berenbaum >> >>mailto:joe-b@... >> >> >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >>FreeShop is the #1 place for free and trial offers and great deals! >> >>Try something new and discover more ways to save! >> >>http://clickhere./click/381 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free >> >> - Simplifying group communications >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >--- >> >Up With People! >> > >> >Visit: Information on recovery alternatives at >> >Http:\\www.BCRecovernet.org >> > >> >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >Its Free!! Hit Music,MP3,horoscopes,audiobooks!! >> >Click to Listen now! >> >http://clickhere./click/380 >> > >> > >> > >> >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free >> > - Simplifying group communications >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> FreeShop is the #1 place for free and trial offers and great deals! >> Try something new and discover more ways to save! >> http://clickhere./click/381 >> >> >> >> eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free >> - Simplifying group communications >> >> >> >> > >Pete Watts > >Owner >PSY-PHAR Psychology/Psychiatry Outcome Research in PsychoPharm >PD Personality Disorders Discussion > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >FreeShop is the #1 place for free and trial offers and great deals! >Try something new and discover more ways to save! >http://clickhere./click/381 > > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 26, 1999 Report Share Posted June 26, 1999 Joe, actually I don't expect the doctors with the highest incomes to be the best -- but in this system, I think the best doctors do tend to have the highest incomes. I have to qualify that statement, though, because my experience was before HMOs became the standard. So perhaps it's not true any more. You know, in this country, people don't believe that medical care is a basic right, and I'm at a loss to understand why. We do believe (at least we give lip service to the idea) that education is a basic right, and that freedom of speech is a basic right (as long as we don't holler " Fire " in a theater), and I don't mean to disparage either of those principles. It's puzzling to me, however, that health care is not a basic right when it's clearly a prerequisite to exercising either of the other rights. After all, you can't learn or say anything if you're dead. --- Kayleigh Zz zZ |\ z _,,,---,,_ /,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_ |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-' '---''(_/--' `-'\_) >At 03:26 PM 6/26/99 -0700, you wrote: >>I don't know if it's true in the UK, Joe, but here some of the very best >doctors I have met do have very high incomes. The two I have met were >surgeons. They went out of their way to establish rapport with patients, >as well as being exceptional surgeons. This is an unusual combination, in >my opinion, but very welcome. >>--- >>Kayleigh > >It is a bit different here because there is state (National Health Service) >treatment which is supposed to be as good as anyone really needs, and a lot >of dedicated doctors work in that system, so it is good, in spite of >political manipulation and squeezing of it by unprincipled persons. That is >where I would expect to find the best doctors. Then there is also private >medicine which is much more of a minority choice and there are very likely >very good doctors working in the private medical system but I would think >the prime motive would not so much be to help people get better, as to make >money. And some will work in both private and state medical systems. So >here I would not expect the highest paid doctors to necessarily be the best >medical practitioners- if I wamted the best I would look for it in the >state system. My consultant is a good examople- she is about as good as >they come, and I don't pay a cent to see her. Well I wouldn't- we don't use >cents here... ;-) I'm not unbiased though- my father did medical research >for many years working in the same hopital and I probably inherited some of >his attitudes, like decent medical care was something everyone deserved as >a right, and so on. > >Joe Berenbaum >mailto:joe-b@... > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Listen to Britany spears and more top artisits >now at audiohighway.com! >http://clickhere./click/395 > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.