Re: Those bastards

[Guest guest]

One of the many things I am astounded at RE AA is where are all those

people that offered their help, now.

You see, I have not attended an AA meeting in months ( I did for several

years), and none of my AA friends have given me a call.

They all assume that I am out drinking, but I am not! Maybe I died,

maybe I got run over by a bus, Maybe I got hit in the head by a 747, but

they all assume I'm out drinking. Seems you become invisible if you stop

attending... So much for the " caring Part of AA..

Jay

> At 10:16 PM 4/30/99 -0000, fransway29@... wrote:

>

> >I hate to admit this, but I was once part of such a group. One of the

> >sponsors in our groups called all his sponsees and told them to stop

> >going to a meeting at this one fella's house, because he thought that

> >fella shouldn't be taking pain medication. After that, no one would come

> >to his house.

> >

> >An AA buddy from the same group--he was a perfectly respectable,

> >well-dressed stockbroker with a local office and a fantatical view of

> >AA-- and me ganged up on this poor addict who had been hospitalized. We

> >were in cahoots with his mother--we sought him out in his hospital room

> >and told him if he didn't quit using and find God he was going to die.

> >On our way out, we felt very proud of ourselves. My friend said,

> > " we certainly crushed him, didn't we? " Another time we plotted to steal

> >all the LIVING SOBER books out of the AA cabinet at the church, so they'd

> >have to use the BIG BOOK at the Newcomer's meeting.

>

> Such actions can easily be justified by 'believers', because the

> actions

> serve a 'greater good', and though they may not admit it or even think

> about it in this way, 'the end justifies the means.'

>

> >I have no doubt that a seemingly respectable AA member could

> >harrass someone the way Henders was harrassed, especially if

> >they think they can save someone, or that lives are at stake.

>

> And MANY AA'ers DO believe that lives are at stake. It's the belief

> that those 'alcoholics', drinking or not, who are not following the 12

> steps AND going to meetings regularly [AND perhaps a few other things]

> will sooner or later, and probably sooner, die as a direct result of

> excessive alcohol intake, caused by the 'disease of alcoholism' and the

> lack of spiritual help to put the disease in remission; the " daily

> reprieve contingent on the maintenance of our spiritual condition. "

> On the Fidonet Recovery echo (general 12-step, but mostly AA) that I

> frequented six or eight years ago there was someone who several times said

> " Words can kill " , and others quoted this as fact. I saw no dissent to this

> statement. Like so many other things there, I was uncomfortable with it,

> but didn't know quite how to express it, but I knew such a statement

> questioning it would only be shot down.

>

> -----

> <http://www.mindspring.com/~benbradley> New and Improved!

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> The Weather Underground. We provide weather across the world. Visit

> http://clickhere./click/48

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

At 10:20 PM 5/7/99 +0100, you wrote:

>London AA hads a gut who is famous for saying:

>

> " I've never had a bad day in recovery " .

>

>He has had 3 heart atttacks.

>

>He is also famous for runningh a meeting like a tyrant and having 150

>sponsees, and a fondness for sponsoring young men

>

>P.

I know this man- . He is sincerely deluded. He also talks about the

four absolutes in meetings, which is pure Oxford Group. Many AA/NA members

regard him as a bit of a joke. I was actually sponsored by someone in his

" chain " for a few years, and it was quite an experience. I will write

something about that sponsor separately sometime. I really believed in this

guy for a while. Scary... Some AA woman I knew who no longer calls me

(I wonder why) once told me that she was the victim of a sexual assault and

she talked to and he told her to take her inventory. Now that tell

you something, doesn't it.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Actually he told me he had four drinks. He must have drunk them mighty fast for

me to have only seen two. But I agree about the exhaustion, and I agree with

your point about tolerance. Even if he hadn't been exhausted, I think the

stress over his daughter, his house and his wife would have sunk him.

He was out of that party so fast that I doubt many people noticed anything

wrong. But he really was afraid he would be fired the next day (he wasn't).

The " lunch is for wimps " philosophy sucks. A few years ago I was in

negotiations in a lawsuit that had 30 parties. That's a lot of parties, and if

you're going to successfully negotiate they all have to get something they want

and perceive that what the other folks want and get doesn't hurt them. The

first day, we were told we could wrap things up before noon. On the first day

of the third week, I said, " Look, let's be reasonable. We've been starving for

two weeks and it's really damaged our reasoning capability. " So we actually

ordered lunch and ate it, while negotiating, of course. After negotiating for

two more weeks we reached a settlement, and I was pretty proud of it, to be

honest, because getting 30 parties to agree isn't easy. Meanwhile, we all

acknowledged reality and ate lunch.

I think the workaholic and downsizing ethic has done untold damage to American

workers and American productivity. I remember reading a couple days ago that so

many workers would take the day off to see the new Star Wars movie that it would

cost us $263 million in productivity. Why not turn it around and say it puts

$263 million into the economy? People think the more you work, the more

productive you are, and it just ain't true. I am quite sure that productivity

slips bigtime when people just contemplate the 14 hour day ahead of them.

---

Kayleigh

Zz

zZ

|\ z _,,,---,,_

/,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_

|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'

'---''(_/--' `-'\_)

>Hi Kayleigh

>

>From your description the exhaustion alone could explain why two drinks

>affected this guy so badly. Active problem drinkers usually show *greater*

>tolerance for alcohol. Of course, AA thinking has primed him for a lapse

>under pressure of course. it's very sad that this could hurt his reputation.

>

>'Lunch is for wimps' seems to be part of the AMerican ethos. I am reading a

>book given to me by my OA ex called 'Go For It: find Success in Study, Work

>and Love " which basically seems to be abt turning yourself into an anorexic

>workaholic.

>

>P.

>

>On Thu, 06 May 1999 20:02:17 -0700 Kayleigh S

>wrote:

>

>> Glad to hear it.

>>

>> Actually, I'm pretty upset about something that happened a few days ago

>with a friend of mine, that happens to be the guy I work for. >

>> I'm working for a political campaign, and campaigns have their own logic

>and attract a certain kind of worker that is able to work hours on end

>without eating. Needless to say, they're young. They kid about the

>campaign diet being coffee, doughnuts, pizza and beer. I myself am a firm

>believer in eating decently at regular times. But seasoned campaign workers

>brag about how little they eat, how they had to wait till 6 PM to have

>breakfast, etc. > > My friend/boss is a small guy, maybe 5'6 " , and weighs

>less than 140 lbs., I'm sure. Also - his house is torn up because the

>contractor he hired to do improvements has been sued and spent the last two

>months in court, unable to do any work, his daughter (13) is failing in

>school and out of control, and all these things plus his work hours are

>putting a big strain on his marriage. > > Tuesday was the primary election,

>and we (and others) spent ten hours working before going to the victory

>party. He had what I perceived to be two drinks and had to be sent home in

>a cab. I thought it was stress and lack of sleep, plus alcohol. > > When

>the candidate made his acceptance speech, after his opponent had conceded, I

>ran into a friend in the public party. She asked where my boss was. I said

>he had been poured into a cab and taken home (unfortunate phraseology). She

>said, " Oh, then he does have a drinking problem! " I said that of course he

>didn't, I'd never seen him drink before. She insisted, so I took her into

>the private suite and asked her what the hell she was talking about. > > She

>said someone, whose name she couldn't divulge (don't you hate it when people

>do that?) had told her my boss had a drinking problem. She said the

>problems with the daughter, the wife and the house were all caused by

>alcohol. I couldn't convince her otherwise. > > Today my boss dropped by my

>house and I told him what she had said. I wasn't sure I should, but I

>thought he ought to know that this story was circulating. He told me that

>in fact, he had been in AA from '84 to '98, hadn't drunk a drop for 14

>years, and the stress from the two campaigns he'd worked on since then had

>driven him over the edge. I said 14 years ago wasn't yesterday and I would

>have responded the same way even if I had known that before this woman laid

>this on me. He thanked me for my support, said that he'd just been to a

>meeting. He said it helped him gain perspective. > > Oh, well. Feedback,

>anyone? > > --- > Kayleigh

>> > Zz > zZ > |\ z _,,,---,,_

>> /,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_ > |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-' >

>'---''(_/--' `-'\_) > > >

>> > >At 06:37 PM 5/6/99

>-0700, you wrote: > >>You're not serious, are you? You can't be serious. >

>>>--- > >>Kayleigh > > > >No, I wasn't being serious. I was saying in a

>roundabout way that > > " surrendering " to AA and having a sponsor is like

>letting someone else > >having your brain. Well actually it IS letting

>someone else have your brain. > > > >Joe Berenbaum > >

>> >------------------------------------------------------------------------

>> >@Backup - The #1 Online Backup Service > >Automatic, Safe, Reliable

>Backup and Restores. FREE for > >30 Days. INSTALL Now and have a chance to

>win a Palm Pilot V! > >http://clickhere./click/218 > > > >eGroup

>home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/12-step-free > >http://www.eGroups.com -

>Simplifying group communications > > > > > >

>> > > -----== Sent via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----- >

>http://www.dejanews.com/ Easy access to 50,000+ discussion forums > >

>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >

>@Backup - The #1 Online Backup Service > Automatic, Safe, Reliable Backup

>and Restores. FREE for > 30 Days. INSTALL Now and have a chance to win a

>Palm Pilot V! > http://clickhere./click/218 > >

[Guest guest]

The only descent thing to do with such people is to piss them off.

Apple

Sometimes I like to tell them that I'm planning a weekend retreat to visit Bill

's grave, where I will leave a small moist brown parcel of gratitude.

Apple

wrote:

Original Article: /list/12-step-free/?start=4031

> Before I remarried I dated a guy I met in AA who insisted there was never any

reason to get angry. I think we'd all still be living in caves if no one ever

got angry.

> ---

> Kayleigh

>

> Zz

> zZ

> |\ z _,,,---,,_

> /,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_

> |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'

> '---''(_/--' `-'\_)

>

>

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

I agree that AA thinking probably primed him for a lapse, but I have to applaud

him for remaining sober for 14 years. AA would say he has to start at " Go "

again, but I don't believe that's true.

To the best of my knowledge, no one from AA has applied any pressure, he has

simply been very indiscreet in confiding in people about his history. As he

says, that's his poor judgment. None of the people he has confided in have been

to his house or observed his family, as far as I know.

But yes, it would be very sad if this hurt his reputation. What happened 14

years ago was then, this is now. Alcohol and drug use is the modern American

witchhunt -- if anything at all is wrong, folks assume you're an addict and send

you to the EAP.

---

Kayleigh

Zz

zZ

|\ z _,,,---,,_

/,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_

|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'

'---''(_/--' `-'\_)

>In a message dated 5/7/99 7:49:45 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

>awatt04@... writes:

>

>> Of course, AA thinking has primed him for a lapse

>> under pressure of course. It's very sad that this could hurt his

>reputation.

>

>This is what AA's thinking was in my situation, too: If they applied enough

>pressure, I would fall apart mentally, (which I did), and come crawling on my

>knees back to them (which I did not).

>

>I am not saying they also did this to Kayleigh's boss, but they can be like

>vultures, circling around an ex-member, almost gleefully waiting for him to

>fall.

>

>What makes me so angry, too, is that my boss has never been to my home or

>spent any time with me outside of the office, so whatever information he had

>about my using/drinking was pure gossip. And greatly exaggerated, I am sure.

>

>Henders

>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>@Backup - The #1 Online Backup Service

>Automatic, Safe, Reliable Backup and Restores. FREE for

>30 Days. INSTALL Now and have a chance to win a Palm Pilot V!

>http://clickhere./click/218

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks for saying " well done, " but I was not in charge of the negotiations,

though I participated actively and had lots of motivation for having it turn

out well.

I'm honestly as amazed as you are that people thought lunch is for wimps. Here

we are in a country that subsidizes lunch for schoolchildren, because lunch is

so important, but refuses to acknowledge that adults need to eat too.

ly, I think that this country, educationwise, workwise, and healthwise is

pretty f****d up right now.

---

Kayleigh

Zz

zZ

|\ z _,,,---,,_

/,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_

|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'

'---''(_/--' `-'\_)

>Hi Kayleigh

>

>Very pleased to hear your positive story about 'lunch is

>for winners'. well done for sorting that negotiation out.

>however, to this brit it still sounds amazing that your

>innovation was have ppl eat *at all*, not actually have a

>break to eat in!

>

>Pete, who is never going to be a millionaire....

>

>

>On Sat, 08 May 1999 11:37:08 -0700 Kayleigh S

> wrote:

>

>> Actually he told me he had four drinks. He must have drunk them mighty fast

for me to have only seen two. But I agree about the exhaustion, and I agree

with your point about tolerance. Even if he hadn't been exhausted, I think the

stress over his daughter, his house and his wife would have sunk him.

>>

>> He was out of that party so fast that I doubt many people noticed anything

wrong. But he really was afraid he would be fired the next day (he wasn't).

>>

>> The " lunch is for wimps " philosophy sucks. A few years ago I was in

negotiations in a lawsuit that had 30 parties. That's a lot of parties, and if

you're going to successfully negotiate they all have to get something they want

and perceive that what the other folks want and get doesn't hurt them. The

first day, we were told we could wrap things up before noon. On the first day

of the third week, I said, " Look, let's be reasonable. We've been starving for

two weeks and it's really damaged our reasoning capability. " So we actually

ordered lunch and ate it, while negotiating, of course. After negotiating for

two more weeks we reached a settlement, and I was pretty proud of it, to be

honest, because getting 30 parties to agree isn't easy. Meanwhile, we all

acknowledged reality and ate lunch.

>>

>> I think the workaholic and downsizing ethic has done untold damage to

American workers and American productivity. I remember reading a couple days

ago that so many workers would take the day off to see the new Star Wars movie

that it would cost us $263 million in productivity. Why not turn it around and

say it puts $263 million into the economy? People think the more you work, the

more productive you are, and it just ain't true. I am quite sure that

productivity slips bigtime when people just contemplate the 14 hour day ahead of

them.

>> ---

>> Kayleigh

>>

>> Zz

>> zZ

>> |\ z _,,,---,,_

>> /,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_

>> |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'

>> '---''(_/--' `-'\_)

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> >Hi Kayleigh

>> >

>> >From your description the exhaustion alone could explain why two drinks

>> >affected this guy so badly. Active problem drinkers usually show *greater*

>> >tolerance for alcohol. Of course, AA thinking has primed him for a lapse

>> >under pressure of course. it's very sad that this could hurt his reputation.

>> >

>> >'Lunch is for wimps' seems to be part of the AMerican ethos. I am reading a

>> >book given to me by my OA ex called 'Go For It: find Success in Study, Work

>> >and Love " which basically seems to be abt turning yourself into an anorexic

>> >workaholic.

>> >

>> >P.

>> >

>> >On Thu, 06 May 1999 20:02:17 -0700 Kayleigh S

>> >wrote:

>> >

>> >> Glad to hear it.

>> >>

>> >> Actually, I'm pretty upset about something that happened a few days ago

>> >with a friend of mine, that happens to be the guy I work for. >

>> >> I'm working for a political campaign, and campaigns have their own logic

>> >and attract a certain kind of worker that is able to work hours on end

>> >without eating. Needless to say, they're young. They kid about the

>> >campaign diet being coffee, doughnuts, pizza and beer. I myself am a firm

>> >believer in eating decently at regular times. But seasoned campaign workers

>> >brag about how little they eat, how they had to wait till 6 PM to have

>> >breakfast, etc. > > My friend/boss is a small guy, maybe 5'6 " , and weighs

>> >less than 140 lbs., I'm sure. Also - his house is torn up because the

>> >contractor he hired to do improvements has been sued and spent the last two

>> >months in court, unable to do any work, his daughter (13) is failing in

>> >school and out of control, and all these things plus his work hours are

>> >putting a big strain on his marriage. > > Tuesday was the primary election,

>> >and we (and others) spent ten hours working before going to the victory

>> >party. He had what I perceived to be two drinks and had to be sent home in

>> >a cab. I thought it was stress and lack of sleep, plus alcohol. > > When

>> >the candidate made his acceptance speech, after his opponent had conceded, I

>> >ran into a friend in the public party. She asked where my boss was. I said

>> >he had been poured into a cab and taken home (unfortunate phraseology). She

>> >said, " Oh, then he does have a drinking problem! " I said that of course he

>> >didn't, I'd never seen him drink before. She insisted, so I took her into

>> >the private suite and asked her what the hell she was talking about. > > She

>> >said someone, whose name she couldn't divulge (don't you hate it when people

>> >do that?) had told her my boss had a drinking problem. She said the

>> >problems with the daughter, the wife and the house were all caused by

>> >alcohol. I couldn't convince her otherwise. > > Today my boss dropped by my

>> >house and I told him what she had said. I wasn't sure I should, but I

>> >thought he ought to know that this story was circulating. He told me that

>> >in fact, he had been in AA from '84 to '98, hadn't drunk a drop for 14

>> >years, and the stress from the two campaigns he'd worked on since then had

>> >driven him over the edge. I said 14 years ago wasn't yesterday and I would

>> >have responded the same way even if I had known that before this woman laid

>> >this on me. He thanked me for my support, said that he'd just been to a

>> >meeting. He said it helped him gain perspective. > > Oh, well. Feedback,

>> >anyone? > > --- > Kayleigh

>> >> > Zz > zZ > |\ z _,,,---,,_

>> >> /,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_ > |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-' >

>> >'---''(_/--' `-'\_) > > >

>> >> > >At 06:37 PM 5/6/99

>> >-0700, you wrote: > >>You're not serious, are you? You can't be serious. >

>> >>>--- > >>Kayleigh > > > >No, I wasn't being serious. I was saying in a

>> >roundabout way that > > " surrendering " to AA and having a sponsor is like

>> >letting someone else > >having your brain. Well actually it IS letting

>> >someone else have your brain. > > > >Joe Berenbaum > >

>> >> >------------------------------------------------------------------------

>> >> >@Backup - The #1 Online Backup Service > >Automatic, Safe, Reliable

>> >Backup and Restores. FREE for > >30 Days. INSTALL Now and have a chance to

>> >win a Palm Pilot V! > >http://clickhere./click/218 > > > >eGroup

>> >home: http://www.eGroups.com/group/12-step-free > >http://www.eGroups.com -

>> >Simplifying group communications > > > > > >

>> >> > > -----== Sent via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----- >

>> >http://www.dejanews.com/ Easy access to 50,000+ discussion forums > >

>> >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >

>> >@Backup - The #1 Online Backup Service > Automatic, Safe, Reliable Backup

>> >and Restores. FREE for > 30 Days. INSTALL Now and have a chance to win a

>> >Palm Pilot V! > http://clickhere./click/218 > >