Guest guest Posted April 27, 1999 Report Share Posted April 27, 1999 Hi, Henders, Did you ever ask the police to investigate this stuff? Was stalking illegal in your state at the time this happened? --- Kayleigh Zz zZ |\ z _,,,---,,_ /,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_ |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-' '---''(_/--' `-'\_) >Hello ex-steppers and lurkers, > >My story, for those of you who haven't heard it, is hard to believe, but I >assure you, this tale is 100 percent the truth. To boil it down briefly, I >was psychologically assaulted by AAer's in the Portland, Oregon, area in >1995. They laid siege on me in such a terrorizing way that they eventually >literally scared me out of my wits. They were determined to make me so >totally insane that I would " come to believe that a power greater than myself >could restore me to insanity. " In effect, they wanted me to come crawling >back to them on my knees. > >I will admit that I was drinking/using too much, but those were some rough >times. I was working in a highly stressful job as a journalist for a >newspaper, and my only child, who almost died at birth and is physically >impaired as a result, was diagnosed at the age of 14 with diabetes. He could >not accept it and was recklessly ignoring his disease. These are just some of >the extreme issues I was dealing with, on top of the everyday problems >everyone faces in an urban, fast-paced, lifestyle. Anyone who has ever tried >to raise -- and I mean full-time, not just weekends or summers -- a >rebellious teenager knows what a trial that is. Mine was not healthy, to boot. > >I had been forced to attend AA a few years earlier after committing myself to >a rehab center. It was part of my " aftercare. " But I just couldn't accept all >their cultlike, sheeplike behavior, etc., etc. You all know their " stupid >step tricks " and bullshit bumper stickers. > >So I quit going. My attitude was, " so what? " to the disease theory. I thought >that if my son was going to die of his disease, well then, I was going to die >from mine. I just hoped I would go first. > >Unfortunately my stepper boss then rallied the local AAers into launching >psychological warfare against me. This included numerous weird and >threatening anonymous (of course) phone calls (i.e.: " when was the last time >you checked the battery in your smoke detector? " and " when was the last time >you had a Pap smear? " and on and on...) > >I liked having the light on my front porch on when I came home from work, and >would leave it on every morning when I left the house. For about three weeks >without fail, it would be dark when I came home. Someone had unscrewed the >bulb. This went on daily. I'd screw it back it, they'd unscrew it the next >day. > >Someone loosened the bolts holding down the camper shell on the back of our >pickup, and it blew off one day as we were driving down the highway. Someone >could have been killed. My husband said he knew the bolts had been tight. > >I'd look up from my desk at work, and someone would be looking at me through >the window in my office that faced the street. As soon as I looked up, they'd >duck out of sight. This happened several times; different people each time, >usually wearing hats and sunglasses. > >One day I had a date with a friend for lunch in Salem, which is about 30 >miles south of Portland. I got on the interstate and headed down there. My >boss must have heard me making the arrangements over the phone. Shortly after >I got on the three-lane freeway, I began to be surrounded by cars. Three >lanes across in front of me, on each side, and all three lanes behind me were >filled closely around me for several car lengths. Neither driver in the >vehicles on each side of me would look at me. This procession had me locked >in then slowed down to about 55 miles per hour and " escorted " me all the way >to Salem. I was so shaken when I got there I called my friend and canceled. I >could barely drive home, I was so freaked out. > >As a newspaper reporter, I had made some enemies in my community by writing >some investigative articles that exposed some unsavory business deals of the >local city council. This caused me to have some paranoia from the get-go. > >Soon I began to doubt my sanity and eventually, as a result, I did loose it >and ended up in a mental ward. My son and husband had to physically take me >there. I was psychotic. > >One of boss's favorite sayings was, " perception is reality. " I used to admire >and like the man, but I now think he is a sick individual. If he had an issue >with my alcohol or drug use, why didn't he ask me to take a piss test? Or why >did he never, not ever, discuss this " problem " with me? He never did! He >always told me I was doing a good job because I was! I never used or drank on >the job, never. It would have shown in my work, believe me. > >I never did really know what happened to me until I found Jack Trimpey's and >Ken Ragge's websites a couple of years ago. I began to rethink what I really >felt about AA. I had, of course, been suffering from " quitter's guilt " and >had resigned myself to being powerless over drugs and alcohol, and even food. >I had quit working and pretty much lived a hermit-like life. Thank goodness >my husband can support us both now. > >I moved 400 miles away from my former boss. One day there was a front-page >article in the local newspaper where I now live about a doctor at the >hospital here who went off his rocker and did something really bizarre, like >walking into surgery nude. Bless the heart of the reporter who added a line >at the end of the story that helped save my life. It read: " A hospital >spokesman said that an alcohol/drug intervention on the doctor had been begun >recently. " > >Bingo. That's what happened to me! (One of these days I want to try to look >that poor guy up and compare notes.) > >Latest update: Last month I finally got the courage to write a letter to my >former boss, telling him that I have signed a contract with See Sharp Press >and agreed to allow to use my story in her book. I told him I now >knew what he and the other AAers had been up to in '95 when they laid siege >on me, and asked him to let me know if I was wrong in thinking it was AAers >who initiated the mind-blowing tactics on me. Because if it was NOT them, I >would immediately tell and ask her to pull my story from the book. > >It has been more than six weeks and I have heard nothing from him. Some >people on this list told me to expect that, and they were right. For one >thing, if he did admit what he and the others did to me, I would have my >lawyer on his ass before he could say " . " > >And they are cowards. AAers hide behind anonymity, which, as you know, they >call the " spiritual foundation of all their traditions. " They are a bunch of >spineless bastards! > >And here's what really, really pisses me off. They are so damned >self-righteous, so self-serving, that they think what they did to me was for >my own good! It's all my fault, of course. In reality, what they did to me >was make a very hard time in my life so unbearable that I lost my mind. I >came so close to killing myself it's a miracle I am still here. I can thank >my son for that. I couldn't do that to him. > >What I think I'd like, like most victims, is an apology. I would like for my >former boss ( " Bill C. " ) to " make a searching and fearless moral inventory of >himself " and " make a list of all the persons he has harmed, and be willing to >make amends to them. " I would surely think I am near the top of his list. > >BUT, since he wasn't drinking/using when he did all that stuff to me, I guess >that makes it okay. > >Thanks for reading this. > >Henders > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Show mom you love her. Check out our great Mother's Day Gifts! >14K Gold and gemstone jewelry, leather and cloth wallets and purses, >gardening, gourmet, kitchen, more! Free Shipping in the US! >http://clickhere./click/142 > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 1999 Report Share Posted April 29, 1999 At 02:20 AM 4/29/99 -0400, Wally T. wrote: > > Those bastards > > >>Hello ex-steppers and lurkers, >> >>My story, for those of you who haven't heard it, is hard to believe, but I >>assure you, this tale is 100 percent the truth... > >Hi Henders, > >Yes, it is hard to believe. Have you considered the possibility that you >actually were paranoid? I think the explanation that steppers were doing this is by far the simplest one. >Paranoia is a pretty common effect of heavy >drinking, especially when we are stressed and when people are starting to > " get on our case. " It happened to me, and it has happened to a few other >people that I have known too. Usually it just goes away with a little sober >time. > >The things you describe all seem to have possible explanations that do not >involve intentional efforts by steppers. Lots of people get strange phone >calls. Lots of people look out one office window and into another out of >boredom or curiosity, and then turn away when they see that their watching >has been noticed. Sometimes cars get stuck in a moving traffic clot for no >reason. > >Light bulbs unscrew themselves. I don't know why, but they really do. >Perhaps there is some physicist reading this list who could explain how it >happens. Maybe you just had a bulb that didn't fit very well, and hanging >upside down, outside, exposed to varying temperatures and wind, yours >unscrewed itself every day for a month. I have a 20 year carreer as an electronics design engineer (I'm late for work right now as I type), and I don't believe that. > >To me, not knowing you, and reading your account over the net, it seems a >good deal more likely that the correct explanation is coincidence, natural >causes, and a mild alcohol-induced paranoia than that it was orchestrated by >a bunch of steppers (who tend to be weird but too confused and unorganized >to carry out such a thing.) The traditions say they are unorganized but it occurred to me just how organized AA'ers are after my first SOS meeting (where I was appalled at their lack of respect for their own readings). AA meetings start on time, then charperson intruduces himself, and there is dead silence for the 'moment of silene followed by the serenity prayer' which is said in unison. People follow this like lemmings. They joke that alcoholics can't agree on anything, but they universally agree on the twelve steps and the dogma and literature surrounding them. Many sponsors are like mini-cult leaders, and don't even realize how much personal power their sponsorees are giving up to them. I think about the people I knew who sponsor others, and the only reason there aren't more stories like Henders' is that in AA it's very much the blind leading the blind. >Furthermore, I've been there. At one time I >could not shake the conviction that the Arkansas Commissioner of Insurance >had hired Pinkerton men to watch my every move (and I lived in >Massachusetts!) Anybody in a parked car on my street just had to be some >sort of spy. I 'overheard' conversations about me that, looking back, were >completely imaginary. This kind of stuff kept me in a state of virtual >terror for weeks on end -- and of course I thought I was losing my mind too. >But I know now that it was just the effect -- physical and psychological -- >of my drinking habit. > >-- Wally I can certainly see where excessive drinking and/or attendance at 12-step meetings can cause psychological stree that may result in the paranoia you write about, but I don't see a good argument that this happened in Henders' case. ----- <http://www.mindspring.com/~benbradley> New and Improved! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 1999 Report Share Posted April 29, 1999 Wally, who's to say it wasnt someone in A.A.? and why not? A.A. is basically made up a of a cross section of the public. even worse, since many of them spent decades of their lives with limited repsonsibilty as they pursued their substance to abuse, or in case of NA'ers, commited crimes to support thier habits. hell, one of reasons i dislike A.A. is becasue of court manadated sentencing of peopel to XA. For that very reason alone you will have a higher concentration of people in a meeting who have had run is with the law than you would in general public. These are not most savory of people to start with. Just because they cliam to be " spiritual " and harmless now is moot. To think that at any given meeting thier may be a potential stalker is no more suprising than if guy next you at meeting ws embelzzing from work. The odds would be probably greater than if the same chance meeting occured at a grocery store. And if im wrong, all that means is the chances of that happening are equal to the possiabilty happening with someone from work, school, neigborhood or grocery store. And thats good enough odds for plenty of people to be raped, robbed or stalked every day. What i find intesting is the lengths you would travel to try to convince this woman she is paranoid (which is a mighty serious disorder for you to casualy diagnois from your keyboard wally. becasue if your wrong, you have helped to dismiss the perceptions of someone who has been tormented.), when given the description of events she has given, thier is no reason to doubt her that something was happening. certainly no cause to call her paranoid. Dave ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 1999 Report Share Posted April 29, 1999 At 08:35 AM 4/29/99 -0400, you wrote: > I can certainly see where excessive drinking and/or attendance at 12-step >meetings can cause psychological stree that may result in the paranoia you >write about, but I don't see a good argument that this happened in Henders' >case. If I received an apparently serious letter from an ex-employee asking if I had previously organised some strange persecution of that person whereby they were followed when driving and had their porch lightbulb unscrewed every night and so on, I would certainly answer it. I would express some surprise at the contents but I would also take the opportunity to state that I had not done those things. This would be a fairly logical reaction to recieving such a letter. Henders sent such a letter and received no response at all. While this doesn't actually prove anything, one conclusion would appear to be that the recipient has no urgent desire to deny these things. I have had some experience of drug-induced paranoia, and it involved my imagining many things that were simply silly or even physically impossible along with things that were typical paranoid hallucinations such as believing myself to be under constant surveillance by police, who appeared to be devoting all their resources, manpower and patrol cars to watching me (a teenager with no criminal record who had recently started taking speed). This was amphetamine psychosis and it is not necessarily comparable to alcohol-induced or stress-induced paranoia. But one thing about Henders' experiences does stand out for me- it all adds up, and if you accept the idea that several steppers were motivated by one central figure (the boss, whose catchphrase was " Perception is reality " ) then it is all actually a logical and believable (just) sequence of events. There are no physical impossibilites in there, no CIA involvement, no men with guns hiding on the opposite rooftops, no wildly inappropriate mass involvement of law enforcement personnel. There was nothing that could not be explained by the theory that Henders has about why it all happened; that this was deliberately staged. Also, each event fits with the idea that these things were deliberately orchestrated to produce a mental breakdown. I do wonder if one or two of the events might be paranoia or simply coincidence; this would be understandable considering the situation. In fact this would be part of the desired effect. But somehow I cannot easily believe that the whole thing was imagined or coincidental. If this was real and deliberate, then the aim would be to create a set of experiences that would be doubted by others. I do think that without an admission by one of the perpetrators it is hard to ever be 100% sure. Personally I have thought about this a lot and I currently have these events filed under " We may never know for sure. Hard, but not impossible to believe " . Certainly I have observed some very strange and antisocial behaviour by the recovery traditionalists on the internet, and these above events do not seem entirely uncharacteristic of step-persons' behaviour when they go on the offensive. When people believe that their belief system must prevail at all costs, they may do some strange and destructive things. It is an old tradition, apparently, that comes with Christianity, and some other religions too. Joe Berenbaum ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 1999 Report Share Posted April 29, 1999 Re: Those bastards >Wally, >who's to say it wasnt someone in A.A.? and why not? A.A. is basically >made up a of a cross section of the public. even worse, since many of >them spent decades of their lives with limited repsonsibilty as they >pursued their substance to abuse, or in case of NA'ers, commited crimes >to support thier habits. hell, one of reasons i dislike A.A. is becasue >of court manadated sentencing of peopel to XA. For that very reason >alone you will have a higher concentration of people in a meeting who >have had run is with the law than you would in general public. > >These are not most savory of people to start with. Just because they >cliam to be " spiritual " and harmless now is moot. To think that at any >given meeting thier may be a potential stalker is no more suprising than >if guy next you at meeting ws embelzzing from work. The odds would be >probably greater than if the same chance meeting occured at a grocery >store. And if im wrong, all that means is the chances of that happening >are equal to the possiabilty happening with someone from work, school, >neigborhood or grocery store. And thats good enough odds for plenty of >people to be raped, robbed or stalked every day. What i find intesting >is the lengths you would travel to try to convince this woman she is >paranoid (which is a mighty serious disorder for you to casualy diagnois >from your keyboard wally. becasue if your wrong, you have helped to >dismiss the perceptions of someone who has been tormented.), when given >the description of events she has given, thier is no reason to doubt her >that something was happening. certainly no cause to call her paranoid. > >Dave Hi Dave, First of all, I am not defending AA. AA does indeed contain vultures who exploit, torment and stalk. I just don't see that as the ONLY explanation for what happened to Henders. Second, a kind of paranoia that some heavy drinkers experience is not a 'mighty serious disorder.' It is not an intrinsic defect of character or mind. It is a temporary aftereffect of drinking that goes away with time. (Though beliefs INDUCED by the paranoid state might persist, I suppose.) Paranoid psychosis is a whole different ballgame, and I was not suggesting anything like that. The pain that results from the fear of persecution is no less real if the persecution is imaginary. This puts anyone who chooses to respond to Henders in a double-bind. If you suggest that the conspiracy might be imaginary and it's real, you can be accused of dismissing the victim's perceptions. Assume that it's real when it's imaginary, though, and you may be encouraging a misperception and fueling baseless, painful fear and anger. I suppose I could have kept my mouf shet and avoided being called a parlor diagnostician. But as I see it I am not taking one side or another here. I am presuming that Henders is capable of considering all the possibilities, evaluating the evidence, deciding one way or the other, and suspending judgement if appropriate. All I did was present one possibility that might have been overlooked. Something wrong with that? -- Wally ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 1999 Report Share Posted April 29, 1999 wally, no there is nothing wrong with that, if that ahd been what you had done. You write now: " I am presuming that Henders is capable of considering all the possibilities, evaluating the evidence, deciding one way or the other, and suspending judgement if appropriate. " but thats not what you did when you wrote this earlier: " To me, not knowing you, and reading your account over the net, it seems a good deal more likely that the correct explanation is coincidence, natural causes, and a mild alcohol-induced paranoia than that it was orchestrated bya bunch of steppers " you didnt confirm or presume her ability to make a judgement here. you did exact opposite. dave ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 1999 Report Share Posted April 29, 1999 Hello Wally, folks I's like to say Wally that I think you were brave to make your post. that Henders was showing some 'paranoia' (not used technically) is a possibility that needs to be addressed, prticularly as this seems to be unlike anything else ive heard abt AA, and also I think Henders you said followed you to a different area? as joe suggests, it could be a mixture. as for lightbulbs unscrewing, well, a lightbulb isnt exactly cutting edge electronics, is it. I dont think it's necessary to have a degree to express an opinion on them. funnily enough, i was thinking abt effects like these only recently. if the light is a screw attachment, then if there extreme temperature variation might just possibly produce some unscrewing, imo. whether this is really plausible to explain what happened i dont know. it could have just been pranksters. kids maybe. early AA did use forms of coercion i've heard but that could be just rumor. now of course, there are professional coercers. anyway, i think we have to have maintain some kind of critical appraisal of what is said here; steppers will certainly sieze on some things as being " paranoid " or ridiculous, and without suitable appraisal by ourselves first, then the frequent problems ppl have may get forgotten. for one thing, i beleive steppers have deliberately run agent provacateur posts here, and could easily attempt to discredit us with disinformation campaigns, unless we're careful. or am i paranoid? Pete On Thu, 29 Apr 1999 13:25:59 -0400 " Wally T. " wrote: > > Re: Those bastards > > > >Wally, > >who's to say it wasnt someone in A.A.? and why not? A.A. is basically > >made up a of a cross section of the public. even worse, since many of > >them spent decades of their lives with limited repsonsibilty as they > >pursued their substance to abuse, or in case of NA'ers, commited crimes > >to support thier habits. hell, one of reasons i dislike A.A. is becasue > >of court manadated sentencing of peopel to XA. For that very reason > >alone you will have a higher concentration of people in a meeting who > >have had run is with the law than you would in general public. > > > >These are not most savory of people to start with. Just because they > >cliam to be " spiritual " and harmless now is moot. To think that at any > >given meeting thier may be a potential stalker is no more suprising than > >if guy next you at meeting ws embelzzing from work. The odds would be > >probably greater than if the same chance meeting occured at a grocery > >store. And if im wrong, all that means is the chances of that happening > >are equal to the possiabilty happening with someone from work, school, > >neigborhood or grocery store. And thats good enough odds for plenty of > >people to be raped, robbed or stalked every day. What i find intesting > >is the lengths you would travel to try to convince this woman she is > >paranoid (which is a mighty serious disorder for you to casualy diagnois > >from your keyboard wally. becasue if your wrong, you have helped to > >dismiss the perceptions of someone who has been tormented.), when given > >the description of events she has given, thier is no reason to doubt her > >that something was happening. certainly no cause to call her paranoid. > > > >Dave > > Hi Dave, > > First of all, I am not defending AA. AA does indeed contain vultures who > exploit, torment and stalk. I just don't see that as the ONLY explanation > for what happened to Henders. > > Second, a kind of paranoia that some heavy drinkers experience is not a > 'mighty serious disorder.' It is not an intrinsic defect of character or > mind. It is a temporary aftereffect of drinking that goes away with time. > (Though beliefs INDUCED by the paranoid state might persist, I suppose.) > Paranoid psychosis is a whole different ballgame, and I was not suggesting > anything like that. > > The pain that results from the fear of persecution is no less real if the > persecution is imaginary. This puts anyone who chooses to respond to Henders > in a double-bind. If you suggest that the conspiracy might be imaginary and > it's real, you can be accused of dismissing the victim's perceptions. Assume > that it's real when it's imaginary, though, and you may be encouraging a > misperception and fueling baseless, painful fear and anger. > > I suppose I could have kept my mouf shet and avoided being called a parlor > diagnostician. But as I see it I am not taking one side or another here. I > am presuming that Henders is capable of considering all the possibilities, > evaluating the evidence, deciding one way or the other, and suspending > judgement if appropriate. All I did was present one possibility that might > have been overlooked. Something wrong with that? > > -- Wally > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > @Backup - #1 Online Backup Service Free for 30 days > INSTALL now and win a Palm Pilot V! > http://clickhere./click/137 > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 1999 Report Share Posted April 29, 1999 Any person who is being stalked can become convinced that fairly harmless occurrences are part of the scheme. Indeed, if you are being stalked it would be downright dangerous not to be hypervigilant. Self-protection dictates it, because you never know when letters, phone calls and other petty harassment will turn into something more serious. As for Henders, realize that there was one nutty person, her boss, who apparently set off this chain of events, and also had some influence over other AA members. She's posted about this in the past, and I think her story has to be taken in context. It is very difficult to contend with people in a position of authority who do irrational things, because the authority lends them more credibility than the victim has. --- Kayleigh Zz zZ |\ z _,,,---,,_ /,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_ |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-' '---''(_/--' `-'\_) >Hello Wally, folks > >I's like to say Wally that I think you were brave to make >your post. that Henders was showing some 'paranoia' (not >used technically) is a possibility that needs to be >addressed, prticularly as this seems to be unlike anything >else ive heard abt AA, and also I think Henders you said >followed you to a different area? > >as joe suggests, it could be a mixture. > >as for lightbulbs unscrewing, well, a lightbulb isnt >exactly cutting edge electronics, is it. I dont think it's >necessary to have a degree to express an opinion on them. > >funnily enough, i was thinking abt effects like these only >recently. if the light is a screw attachment, then if there >extreme temperature variation might just possibly produce >some unscrewing, imo. whether this is really plausible to >explain what happened i dont know. it could have just been >pranksters. kids maybe. > >early AA did use forms of coercion i've heard but that >could be just rumor. now of course, there are professional >coercers. > >anyway, i think we have to have maintain some kind of >critical appraisal of what is said here; steppers will >certainly sieze on some things as being " paranoid " or >ridiculous, and without suitable appraisal by ourselves >first, then the frequent problems ppl have may get >forgotten. for one thing, i beleive steppers have >deliberately run agent provacateur posts here, and could >easily attempt to discredit us with disinformation >campaigns, unless we're careful. or am i paranoid? > >Pete > >On Thu, 29 Apr 1999 13:25:59 -0400 " Wally T. " > wrote: > >> >> Re: Those bastards >> >> >> >Wally, >> >who's to say it wasnt someone in A.A.? and why not? A.A. is basically >> >made up a of a cross section of the public. even worse, since many of >> >them spent decades of their lives with limited repsonsibilty as they >> >pursued their substance to abuse, or in case of NA'ers, commited crimes >> >to support thier habits. hell, one of reasons i dislike A.A. is becasue >> >of court manadated sentencing of peopel to XA. For that very reason >> >alone you will have a higher concentration of people in a meeting who >> >have had run is with the law than you would in general public. >> > >> >These are not most savory of people to start with. Just because they >> >cliam to be " spiritual " and harmless now is moot. To think that at any >> >given meeting thier may be a potential stalker is no more suprising than >> >if guy next you at meeting ws embelzzing from work. The odds would be >> >probably greater than if the same chance meeting occured at a grocery >> >store. And if im wrong, all that means is the chances of that happening >> >are equal to the possiabilty happening with someone from work, school, >> >neigborhood or grocery store. And thats good enough odds for plenty of >> >people to be raped, robbed or stalked every day. What i find intesting >> >is the lengths you would travel to try to convince this woman she is >> >paranoid (which is a mighty serious disorder for you to casualy diagnois >> >from your keyboard wally. becasue if your wrong, you have helped to >> >dismiss the perceptions of someone who has been tormented.), when given >> >the description of events she has given, thier is no reason to doubt her >> >that something was happening. certainly no cause to call her paranoid. >> > >> >Dave >> >> Hi Dave, >> >> First of all, I am not defending AA. AA does indeed contain vultures who >> exploit, torment and stalk. I just don't see that as the ONLY explanation >> for what happened to Henders. >> >> Second, a kind of paranoia that some heavy drinkers experience is not a >> 'mighty serious disorder.' It is not an intrinsic defect of character or >> mind. It is a temporary aftereffect of drinking that goes away with time. >> (Though beliefs INDUCED by the paranoid state might persist, I suppose.) >> Paranoid psychosis is a whole different ballgame, and I was not suggesting >> anything like that. >> >> The pain that results from the fear of persecution is no less real if the >> persecution is imaginary. This puts anyone who chooses to respond to Henders >> in a double-bind. If you suggest that the conspiracy might be imaginary and >> it's real, you can be accused of dismissing the victim's perceptions. Assume >> that it's real when it's imaginary, though, and you may be encouraging a >> misperception and fueling baseless, painful fear and anger. >> >> I suppose I could have kept my mouf shet and avoided being called a parlor >> diagnostician. But as I see it I am not taking one side or another here. I >> am presuming that Henders is capable of considering all the possibilities, >> evaluating the evidence, deciding one way or the other, and suspending >> judgement if appropriate. All I did was present one possibility that might >> have been overlooked. Something wrong with that? >> >> -- Wally >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> @Backup - #1 Online Backup Service Free for 30 days >> INSTALL now and win a Palm Pilot V! >> http://clickhere./click/137 >> >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 1999 Report Share Posted April 29, 1999 At 05:00 PM 4/29/99 -0700, Kayleigh S wrote: >As for Henders, realize that there was one nutty person, her boss, who apparently set off this chain of events, and also had some influence over other AA members. She's posted about this in the past, and I think her story has to be taken in context. It is very difficult to contend with people in a position of authority who do irrational things, because the authority lends them more credibility than the victim has. I remember an AA member talking (after a meeting, not in it) about her sponsor becoming angry and telling her " you need to pick up a white chip " after she casually mentioned taking aspirin. She said, and others agreed, how horrible a feeling it was when a sponsor 'goes off the deep end'. ----- <http://www.mindspring.com/~benbradley> New and Improved! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 1999 Report Share Posted April 29, 1999 By co-incidence (a real one) I just discovered that " Perception is reality " is a phrase from marketing. I didn't know that. Joe Berenbaum ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 1999 Report Share Posted April 29, 1999 Bosses and sponsors have very different kinds of power, wouldn't you agree? --- Kayleigh Zz zZ |\ z _,,,---,,_ /,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_ |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-' '---''(_/--' `-'\_) >At 05:00 PM 4/29/99 -0700, Kayleigh S wrote: > >>As for Henders, realize that there was one nutty person, her boss, who >apparently set off this chain of events, and also had some influence over >other AA members. She's posted about this in the past, and I think her >story has to be taken in context. It is very difficult to contend with >people in a position of authority who do irrational things, because the >authority lends them more credibility than the victim has. > > I remember an AA member talking (after a meeting, not in it) about her >sponsor becoming angry and telling her " you need to pick up a white chip " >after she casually mentioned taking aspirin. She said, and others agreed, >how horrible a feeling it was when a sponsor 'goes off the deep end'. > >----- ><http://www.mindspring.com/~benbradley> New and Improved! > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Does your free web site address contain more letters than the alphabet? >Register a domain name with DomainDirect. A domain with NO hosting fees. >Visit http://clickhere./click/49 for full details. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 1999 Report Share Posted April 29, 1999 At 06:48 PM 4/29/99 -0700, you wrote: >Bosses and sponsors have very different kinds of power, wouldn't you agree? > >--- >Kayleigh The ultimate nightmare- your boss decides he's also your sponsor. Joe Berenbaum ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 1999 Report Share Posted April 29, 1999 Even worse -- you are a lawyer and a Supreme Court Justice decides he is your sponsor. (Happened to a friend of mine.) He is also on the Board of Directors of the treatment center he decides you should attend. Several conflicts of interest here, maybe? --- Kayleigh Zz zZ |\ z _,,,---,,_ /,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_ |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-' '---''(_/--' `-'\_) >At 06:48 PM 4/29/99 -0700, you wrote: >>Bosses and sponsors have very different kinds of power, wouldn't you agree? >> >>--- >>Kayleigh > >The ultimate nightmare- your boss decides he's also your sponsor. > >Joe Berenbaum > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Does your free web site address contain more letters than the alphabet? >Register a domain name with DomainDirect. A domain with NO hosting fees. >Visit http://clickhere./click/49 for full details. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 30, 1999 Report Share Posted April 30, 1999 In a message dated 4/28/99 7:12:47 PM Pacific Daylight Time, kayleighs@... writes: > Perhaps I am on thin ice here -- but where was your husband when all of this > was happening? > Busy. Very busy, as a supervisor at a demanding job 30 miles from home. Working six days a week. Henders ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 30, 1999 Report Share Posted April 30, 1999 In a message dated 4/29/99 8:07:55 AM Pacific Daylight Time, dmarcoot@... writes: > when given > the description of events she has given, their is no reason to doubt her > that something was happening. certainly no cause to call her paranoid. > > Dave Thanks, Dave. Henders ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 30, 1999 Report Share Posted April 30, 1999 In a message dated 4/29/99 5:37:57 AM Pacific Daylight Time, benbradley@... writes: > > >Yes, it is hard to believe. Have you considered the possibility that you > >actually were paranoid? > I am not here to debate this with anyone. It's my story, as they say, and I'm sticking to it. But I do have witnesses -- my family and friends -- who know what I was going through. I did not live in a vacuum. When all this was coming down, I quit doing any and all mind-altering substances because I was so scared. I felt I needed to be on my toes and thinking clearly. I think there is such a thing as " justifiable paranoia, " in fact, anyone who was in my circumstances who was NOT paranoid would have to be pretty much a zombie. When I was admitted to the hospital, a blood test showed the only thing in my system was Benedryl. I have the records to prove it, but as I said, I am not going to argue the veracity of my story here. I lived it. Henders ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 30, 1999 Report Share Posted April 30, 1999 In a message dated 4/29/99 5:03:14 PM Pacific Daylight Time, kayleighs@... writes: > > As for Henders, realize that there was one nutty person, her boss, who > apparently set off this chain of events, and also had some influence over > other AA members. Yes, This is a central part of my story that you can't really understand unless you have ever known this man. He and I were not involved romantically but we worked very closely together for eight years. He is a charismatic, handsome, intelligent Vietnam veteran who can talk anybody into anything. He used to be a fast-talking, fun-loving guy who was great fun to be around until he got into AA. His personality completely changed; he's like a different person now. I think he was obsessed with me, to be quite honest. It would not be incorrect to say we loved each other; but we kept it as platonic and professional as possible. There was no touching, except hugs. We are both married. The fact that he has chosen to ignore my letter, especially after I told him about my story going into 's book, is very revealing to me. I have always held out hope that perhaps it was not him and AA who was after me, but his silence is speaking volumes. Henders ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 30, 1999 Report Share Posted April 30, 1999 In a message dated 4/29/99 5:54:06 PM Pacific Daylight Time, joe-b@... writes: > > By coincidence (a real one) I just discovered that " Perception is reality " > > is a phrase from marketing. I didn't know that. Before my boss became a newspaper publisher, he was an ad salesman for years. Henders ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 30, 1999 Report Share Posted April 30, 1999 HI Henders I heop you werent upset by my suggestion that Wally was right to raise some skeptical questions. The extra detail abt the personal relationship between you and your boss makes a big difference. Basically it sounds like you were stalked, with his friends, many if not all could have been AA, helping him do it. best, Pete > In a message dated 4/29/99 5:03:14 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > kayleighs@... writes: > > > > > As for Henders, realize that there was one nutty person, her boss, who > > apparently set off this chain of events, and also had some influence over > > other AA members. > > Yes, This is a central part of my story that you can't really understand > unless you have ever known this man. He and I were not involved romantically > but we worked very closely together for eight years. He is a charismatic, > handsome, intelligent Vietnam veteran who can talk anybody into anything. He > used to be a fast-talking, fun-loving guy who was great fun to be around > until he got into AA. His personality completely changed; he's like a > different person now. > > I think he was obsessed with me, to be quite honest. It would not be > incorrect to say we loved each other; but we kept it as platonic and > professional as possible. There was no touching, except hugs. We are both > married. > > The fact that he has chosen to ignore my letter, especially after I told him > about my story going into 's book, is very revealing to me. I have > always held out hope that perhaps it was not him and AA who was after me, but > his silence is speaking volumes. > > Henders > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > The Weather Underground. We provide weather across the world. > Visit http://clickhere./click/48 > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 30, 1999 Report Share Posted April 30, 1999 wrote: Original Article: /list/12-step-free/?start=3956 > Any person who is being stalked can become convinced that fairly harmless occurrences are part of the scheme. Indeed, if you are being stalked it would be downright dangerous not to be hypervigilant. Self-protection dictates it, because you never know when letters, phone calls and other petty harassment will turn into something more serious. > > As for Henders, realize that there was one nutty person, her boss, who apparently set off this chain of events, and also had some influence over other AA members. She's posted about this in the past, and I think her story has to be taken in context. It is very difficult to contend with people in a position of authority who do irrational things, because the authority lends them more credibility than the victim has. I realize most people in AA would not participate in what was done to Henders. However, I do know that some of them, particularly some of the more fanatical groups, would. I hate to admit this, but I was once part of such a group. One of the sponsors in our groups called all his sponsees and told them to stop going to a meeting at this one fella's house, because he thought that fella shouldn't be taking pain medication. After that, no one would come to his house. An AA buddy from the same group--he was a perfectly respectable, well-dressed stockbroker with a local office and a fantatical view of AA-- and me ganged up on this poor addict who had been hospitalized. We were in cahoots with his mother--we sought him out in his hospital room and told him if he didn't quit using and find God he was going to die. On our way out, we felt very proud of ourselves. My friend said, " we certainly crushed him, didn't we? " Another time we plotted to steal all the LIVING SOBER books out of the AA cabinet at the church, so they'd have to use the BIG BOOK at the Newcomer's meeting. I have no doubt that a seemingly respectable AA member could harrass someone the way Henders was harrassed, especially if they think they can save someone, or that lives are at stake. Some of these folks have squads of sponsees who will do anything they say. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 30, 1999 Report Share Posted April 30, 1999 At 10:16 PM 4/30/99 -0000, fransway29@... wrote: >I hate to admit this, but I was once part of such a group. One of the >sponsors in our groups called all his sponsees and told them to stop >going to a meeting at this one fella's house, because he thought that fella >shouldn't be taking pain medication. After that, no one would come to his >house. > >An AA buddy from the same group--he was a perfectly respectable, >well-dressed stockbroker with a local office and a fantatical view of AA-- >and me ganged up on this poor addict who had been hospitalized. We were >in cahoots with his mother--we sought him out in his hospital room and told >him if he didn't quit using and find God he was going to die. On our way >out, we felt very proud of ourselves. My friend said, " we certainly >crushed him, didn't we? " Another time we plotted to steal all the >LIVING SOBER books out of the AA cabinet at the church, so they'd have >to use the BIG BOOK at the Newcomer's meeting. Such actions can easily be justified by 'believers', because the actions serve a 'greater good', and though they may not admit it or even think about it in this way, 'the end justifies the means.' >I have no doubt that a seemingly respectable AA member could >harrass someone the way Henders was harrassed, especially if >they think they can save someone, or that lives are at stake. And MANY AA'ers DO believe that lives are at stake. It's the belief that those 'alcoholics', drinking or not, who are not following the 12 steps AND going to meetings regularly [AND perhaps a few other things] will sooner or later, and probably sooner, die as a direct result of excessive alcohol intake, caused by the 'disease of alcoholism' and the lack of spiritual help to put the disease in remission; the " daily reprieve contingent on the maintenance of our spiritual condition. " On the Fidonet Recovery echo (general 12-step, but mostly AA) that I frequented six or eight years ago there was someone who several times said " Words can kill " , and others quoted this as fact. I saw no dissent to this statement. Like so many other things there, I was uncomfortable with it, but didn't know quite how to express it, but I knew such a statement questioning it would only be shot down. ----- <http://www.mindspring.com/~benbradley> New and Improved! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 30, 1999 Report Share Posted April 30, 1999 At 07:55 PM 4/30/99 -5000, fleishe1@... wrote: >One of the many things I am astounded at RE AA is where are all those >people that offered their help, now. >You see, I have not attended an AA meeting in months ( I did for several >years), and none of my AA friends have given me a call. >They all assume that I am out drinking, but I am not! Maybe I died, >maybe I got run over by a bus, Maybe I got hit in the head by a 747, but >they all assume I'm out drinking. Seems you become invisible if you stop >attending... So much for the " caring Part of AA.. > >Jay There was another little slogan telling why you shouldn't have contact with those not practicing the program (this originally applies to having two AA'ers go to visit a new recruit, but can be used with dealing with anyone who's not in the program but should be): " They're stronger in their disease than you are in your recovery. " ----- <http://www.mindspring.com/~benbradley> New and Improved! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 30, 1999 Report Share Posted April 30, 1999 What is your objection to the saying " Words can kill? " In my experience, AA'ers claim that sticks and stones will break their bones but words will never hurt them. I can tell you for sure, that if my husband comes into the house and says, " Bitch! Do the dishes! " it has a very different effect than if he comes into the house and says, " Hi, honey, are you going to do the dishes before dinner? " --- Kayleigh Zz zZ |\ z _,,,---,,_ /,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_ |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-' '---''(_/--' `-'\_) >At 10:16 PM 4/30/99 -0000, fransway29@... wrote: > >>I hate to admit this, but I was once part of such a group. One of the >>sponsors in our groups called all his sponsees and told them to stop >>going to a meeting at this one fella's house, because he thought that fella >>shouldn't be taking pain medication. After that, no one would come to his >>house. >> >>An AA buddy from the same group--he was a perfectly respectable, >>well-dressed stockbroker with a local office and a fantatical view of AA-- >>and me ganged up on this poor addict who had been hospitalized. We were >>in cahoots with his mother--we sought him out in his hospital room and told >>him if he didn't quit using and find God he was going to die. On our way >>out, we felt very proud of ourselves. My friend said, " we certainly >>crushed him, didn't we? " Another time we plotted to steal all the >>LIVING SOBER books out of the AA cabinet at the church, so they'd have >>to use the BIG BOOK at the Newcomer's meeting. > > Such actions can easily be justified by 'believers', because the actions >serve a 'greater good', and though they may not admit it or even think >about it in this way, 'the end justifies the means.' > >>I have no doubt that a seemingly respectable AA member could >>harrass someone the way Henders was harrassed, especially if >>they think they can save someone, or that lives are at stake. > > And MANY AA'ers DO believe that lives are at stake. It's the belief >that those 'alcoholics', drinking or not, who are not following the 12 >steps AND going to meetings regularly [AND perhaps a few other things] >will sooner or later, and probably sooner, die as a direct result of >excessive alcohol intake, caused by the 'disease of alcoholism' and the >lack of spiritual help to put the disease in remission; the " daily >reprieve contingent on the maintenance of our spiritual condition. " > On the Fidonet Recovery echo (general 12-step, but mostly AA) that I >frequented six or eight years ago there was someone who several times >said " Words can kill " , and others quoted this as fact. I saw no dissent >to this statement. Like so many other things there, I was uncomfortable >with it, but didn't know quite how to express it, but I knew such a >statement questioning it would only be shot down. > >----- ><http://www.mindspring.com/~benbradley> New and Improved! > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >The Weather Underground. We provide weather across the world. >Visit http://clickhere./click/48 > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 1, 1999 Report Share Posted May 1, 1999 Okay, I see what you mean, but I've never heard that one. I know the " spiritually fit, blah, blah, blah, " line very well. I once had the pleasure of being at a meeting where a respected member with many years said, " This is just bullshit! I'm responsible for what I say and how it affects people! " (Naturally the topic was some misunderstanding another member had had with somebody, and the group was assuring him that it was " their problem, not your problem, if they choose to be upset. " Yeah, right.) --- Kayleigh Zz zZ |\ z _,,,---,,_ /,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_ |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-' '---''(_/--' `-'\_) > I suppose I should apologize for this misunderstanding, and for not >being clear. I quoted the phrase " words can kill " out of context, and >didn't express the original meaning behind it. What it means is not quite >what it says. > But then that's probably true of much of what AA members say... > >At 09:40 PM 4/30/99 -0700, Kayleigh S wrote: >>What is your objection to the saying " Words can kill? " In my experience, >AA'ers claim that sticks and stones will break their bones but words will >never hurt them. > > I've heard that thought expressed consistently in meetings, if not >usually in that way. It's more along the lines of " as long as I'm >spiritually fit, what others do and say doesn't affect me " . If this goes >along with what you're saying, that this is a false idea and that what >other people say DOES affect an individual, > Thinking back to the context, the " words can kill " comment had to do with >correctly 'carrying the message' of AA. This had nothing to do with how you >told someone something, or the exact words you used, but the content of >your message. If it isn't the message of AA, it (supposedly) won't help >them get sober, and so they could die. > >> I can tell you for sure, that if my husband comes into the house and >says, " Bitch! Do the dishes! " it has a very different effect than if he >comes into the house and says, " Hi, honey, are you going to do the dishes >before dinner? " >> > > Suppose your husband (or rather, a fictionalized husband, a member and >believer of 12-step, for this demonstration) believed that if you didn't do >the dishes you could die from 'alcoholism' or something, and this would be >the worst thing in the world that could happen. He may ask you nicely, but >if you are the least bit reluctant or hesitant he may start to pressure you, >and give you a lecture on why you should do the dishes. In this case, >whether or not you do the dishes is much more important to your husband >than your feeling are, or any negative reaction to what he says. > It's now clear (to me, and I hope those reading this) that I quoted >what was said ( " words can kill " ), and not what was meant ([non-AA] ideas >can kill). > >----- ><http://www.mindspring.com/~benbradley> New and Improved! > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >The Weather Underground. We provide weather across the world. >Visit http://clickhere./click/48 > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 1999 Report Share Posted May 2, 1999 That was always so friggin' annoying... if I get run over by a car, I " choose " to scream in pain. If I get fired unexpectedly it's " my choice " to be upset. Why does AA try to mill these superhumans who have abnormal reactions to ordinary life situations? Why don't the AAs who object to my site " choose " not to be upset? I think it's a scream when I get mail that says " I'm not recovered enough not to get angry about your site " . I usually tell 'em that the old AA cookie cutter did a nice job on their personality seeing how they think they're ever gonna attain a state of being which is devoid of the less popular human emotions. Apple wrote: Original Article: /list/12-step-free/?start=3989 > Okay, I see what you mean, but I've never heard that one. I know the " spiritually fit, blah, blah, blah, " line very well. I once had the pleasure of being at a meeting where a respected member with many years said, " This is just bullshit! I'm responsible for what I say and how it affects people! " (Naturally the topic was some misunderstanding another member had had with somebody, and the group was assuring him that it was " their problem, not your problem, if they choose to be upset. " Yeah, right.) > --- > Kayleigh > > Zz > zZ > |\ z _,,,---,,_ > /,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_ > |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-' > '---''(_/--' `-'\_) > > > > > > I suppose I should apologize for this misunderstanding, and for not > >being clear. I quoted the phrase " words can kill " out of context, and > >didn't express the original meaning behind it. What it means is not quite > >what it says. > > But then that's probably true of much of what AA members say... > > > >At 09:40 PM 4/30/99 -0700, Kayleigh S wrote: > >>What is your objection to the saying " Words can kill? " In my experience, > >AA'ers claim that sticks and stones will break their bones but words will > >never hurt them. > > > > I've heard that thought expressed consistently in meetings, if not > >usually in that way. It's more along the lines of " as long as I'm > >spiritually fit, what others do and say doesn't affect me " . If this goes > >along with what you're saying, that this is a false idea and that what > >other people say DOES affect an individual, > > Thinking back to the context, the " words can kill " comment had to do with > >correctly 'carrying the message' of AA. This had nothing to do with how you > >told someone something, or the exact words you used, but the content of > >your message. If it isn't the message of AA, it (supposedly) won't help > >them get sober, and so they could die. > > > >> I can tell you for sure, that if my husband comes into the house and > >says, " Bitch! Do the dishes! " it has a very different effect than if he > >comes into the house and says, " Hi, honey, are you going to do the dishes > >before dinner? " > >> > > > > Suppose your husband (or rather, a fictionalized husband, a member and > >believer of 12-step, for this demonstration) believed that if you didn't do > >the dishes you could die from 'alcoholism' or something, and this would be > >the worst thing in the world that could happen. He may ask you nicely, but > >if you are the least bit reluctant or hesitant he may start to pressure you, > >and give you a lecture on why you should do the dishes. In this case, > >whether or not you do the dishes is much more important to your husband > >than your feeling are, or any negative reaction to what he says. > > It's now clear (to me, and I hope those reading this) that I quoted > >what was said ( " words can kill " ), and not what was meant ([non-AA] ideas > >can kill). > > > >----- > ><http://www.mindspring.com/~benbradley> New and Improved! > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >The Weather Underground. We provide weather across the world. > >Visit http://clickhere./click/48 > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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