Guest guest Posted June 5, 2000 Report Share Posted June 5, 2000 > > Message: 17 > Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 20:39:31 EDT > From: jab44419@... > Subject: Re: > > Toni, > I am on tamoxifin and am nervous, Dr. Rubio in Tijuana put me on > it. I still > have hot flashes, aren't there sign effects we should be > concerned with? I > was not hormone positive, but Rubio puts everyone on it anyway. > My Internist > was OK with it but I am still nervous. Can anyone shed any light on this > subject. Also, how long do you use it, the rest of your life? Won't > progesterone cream do the same thing? > Sincerely, > Ann > Research suggests that five years of tamoxifen is enough after proper conventional treatment. The benefits are likely to be small if the cancer was estrogen receptor negative, but ten year survival studies show there is still an effect. It is normally well tolerated, but can cause menopausal symptoms in premenopausal women. The only serious side effects are cancer of the body of the uterus and venous thrombosis. These are rare (1 in 1000 per woman per year for the uterine cancer). Any gynaecological symptoms should be looked into, and an occasional ultrasound of the uterus may show the endometrial thickening that may be the first sign of this developing. Moran Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2000 Report Share Posted June 7, 2000 Ann, I am writing what is written in the 1997 Nursing Drug Reference in reference to Tamoxifen (other names used Nolvadex Nolvadex-D, Novo-Tamoxifen, Tamofen, Tamone), hoping that it may help you with your decision.... Func. class: Antineoplastic Chem. class: Antiestrogen hormone Action: Inhibits cell division by binding to cytoplasmic estrogen receptors: resembles normal cell complex but inhibits DNA synthesis and estrogen response of target tissue. Uses: Advanced breast carcinoma not responsive to other therapy in estrogen-receptor-positive patients ( usually postmenopausal) Dosage and routes: Adults: PO 10-20 mg bid Side Effects/adverse reactions: Hema: Thrombocytopenia, leukopenia GI: Nausea, vomiting, altered taste (anorexia) GU: vaginal bleeding, pruritus vulvae Integ: rash, alopecia (lose hair) CV: chest pain CNS: hot flashes, headache, light-headedness, depression META: hypercalcemia EENT: ocular lesions, retinopathy, corneal opacity, blurred vision (high doses) Contraindications: hypersensitivity, pregnancy Precautions: Leukopenia, thrombocytopenia, lactation, cataracts Pharmacokinetics: PO: Peak 4-7 hr, half-life 7 days, excreted primarily in feces Lab test interferences: increase: serum Ca Nursing considerations: Assess: * CBC, differential, platelet count qwk; withhold drug if WBC is <3500 or platelet count is <100,000; notify prescriber * Bleeding: hematuria, guaiac, bruising, petechiae, mucosa or orifices q8hr. * Food preferences: list likes, dislikes * Effects of alopecia on body image; discuss feelings about body changes * symptoms indicating severe allergic reactions: rash, pruritus, urticaria, purpuric skin lesions, itching, flushing Administer: *Antacid before oral agent; give drug after evening meal, before bedtime * Antiemetic 30-60 min before giving drug to prevent vomiting Perform/ provide: * Liquid diet, if needed including cola, Jell-O; dry toast or crackers may be added if patient is not nauseated or vomiting * Increase fluid intake to 2-3 L/day to prevent dehydration * Nutritious diet with iron, vitamin supplements as ordered. * Storage in light-resistant container at room temp. Evaluate: Therapeutic response: decreased tumor size, spread of malignancy Teach patient / family: * To report any complaints, side effects to prescriber * That vaginal bleeding, pruritus, hot flashes are reversible after discontinuing treatment * To report immediately decreased visual acuity, which may be irreversible; stress need for routine eye exams, who should be told about tamoxifen therapy * To report vaginal bleeding immediately * That tumor flare - increase in size of tumor, increased bone pain- may occur and will subside rapidly; may take analgesics for pain. * That premenopausal women must use mechanical birth control because ovulation may be induced. * That hair may be lost during treatment; a wig or hairpice may make patient feel better; new hair may be different in color, texture. I hope that this helps you to make a more informed decision..........Belinda In a message dated 06/06/2000 10:28:15 PM Central Daylight Time, jab44419@... writes: << , I am worried about being on both Tamoxifin and Progesterone cream and esp. estrogen of any kind. Does anyone understand what Tamorifin does exactly. Does it block the harmful effects of estrogen or all estrogen. Someone told me it blocks just to the breast and not the other organs, can anyone clear this up. I need to make a decision to stay on Tamorifin or use just progesterone or what. I am hormone negative and worry the side effects are not worth it for me. Help! Ann >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2000 Report Share Posted June 7, 2000 Toni and Belinda Thank you so much for the responses. It is alot to weigh. At least I understand a little more now. Thank you ann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 26, 2004 Report Share Posted April 26, 2004 No after Tamoxifen test results yet. Will keep you posted.... > Do you have any pre and post Tamoxifen blood tests ? Tamoxifen can > raise LH but not nearly as good as Clomid. I was on Clomid 110mg/day > and Tamoxifen 20mg day for 4 weeks and my T levels are high (as well > as my LH) . My Dr is keeping me on the Clomid but dropped the > Nolvadex and added Arimidex. I may have my blood tested Friday so > I'll see if my LH levels have dropped at all > > > > Hello, > > I made some posts to this group a few months back regarding low T > > levels. One of my docs prescribed Tamoxifen 10 mg. 3 times a week. > > Not sure if this is the correct thing to take, but I did notice a > > huge improvement in libido. I've been taking Tamoxifen for about 5 > > weeks or so. Seems like the improvement is starting to taper down > > somewhat, but is still pretty good for now. Just wanted to see if > > anyone else had any similar results with this or offer any input. I > > will be seeing a new endocrinologist next week and thought it would > > be a good idea to get the most out of my appointment. Your input > > would be appreciated. > > Thanks! > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 26, 2004 Report Share Posted April 26, 2004 Hi , Keep us updated, Im in the same boat as you, still suffering from propecia... Check out this article as well.. http://www.basskilleronline.com/hpta_reversal.html > > Do you have any pre and post Tamoxifen blood tests ? Tamoxifen > can > > raise LH but not nearly as good as Clomid. I was on Clomid > 110mg/day > > and Tamoxifen 20mg day for 4 weeks and my T levels are high (as > well > > as my LH) . My Dr is keeping me on the Clomid but dropped the > > Nolvadex and added Arimidex. I may have my blood tested Friday so > > I'll see if my LH levels have dropped at all > > > > > > > Hello, > > > I made some posts to this group a few months back regarding low T > > > levels. One of my docs prescribed Tamoxifen 10 mg. 3 times a > week. > > > Not sure if this is the correct thing to take, but I did notice a > > > huge improvement in libido. I've been taking Tamoxifen for about > 5 > > > weeks or so. Seems like the improvement is starting to taper down > > > somewhat, but is still pretty good for now. Just wanted to see if > > > anyone else had any similar results with this or offer any input. > I > > > will be seeing a new endocrinologist next week and thought it > would > > > be a good idea to get the most out of my appointment. Your input > > > would be appreciated. > > > Thanks! > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 24, 2007 Report Share Posted March 24, 2007 L, I had second stage ductal carcinoma. One lymph node. A large cancer in one breast. It was being fed by hormones, but chemo puts you through menopause, so there are less hormones affecting your body. I try to eat right and keep my health up, don't do junk food, no soda, avoid sugars, lots of good veggies, avoid white starches, etc. I think attitude is everything. I did do chemo for 5 treatments. No radiation. I would never advise tamoxifen for anyone. Nasty stuff. I refused it, to the chagrin of my oncologist. Lynda At 06:31 PM 3/24/2007, you wrote: >Hi Lynda ... > >WOW !!! congratulations on the 17 years ... that's wonderful >!! Thanks so much for telling me ... I always worry .... this >constant cloud over my head. > >I used Tamoxifen, chemically-induced menopause, and radiation. I >did volunteer in a SOFT Trial originally for 5 years but couldn't do >the cold-turkey menopause. I didn't stay on Tamoxifen either, >although still have in cabinet. My ONC suggested I get back on it. > >What are you doing/have done to keep at bay? What type of cancer, >did you catch early? > > L (I'll use LCL from now on .... ) > >-------------- Original message -------------- >From: Lynda <coss@...> > > L. > >I refused the Tamoxifen when I had breast >cancer. I read the research and the side >effects, it helps 9% of women. It has such major >side effects. I am 17 years post cancer. > >I hope you are off it now. I knew people who took it for 5 years. > >Lynda (another Lynda L.), but my name is spelled >with a y so everyone knows it is me. > >Lynda > >At 05:20 AM 3/24/2007, you wrote: > > >Hi ... I am looking so forward to getting these > >taken out !!! I also notice when I do upper > >body weights in the gym ... it " starts " to come > >on. Pinched nerves ... what an experiment we > >are ... I'd like to see how many of these " side > >effects " disappear over time. Joints have > >bothered me alot. I've noticed it's " damaged " > >joints that I have in my body ... knees, neck, lower back, etc. > > > >The summer before diagnosis (diag Dec 04), I > >went thru a big " cleanse. " Used my Colonic >gt;lady, started using cleansing herbs, was on a > >strict cleansing diet and eventually did coffee > >cleanses. I'm telling you ... I felt like a new > >person ... it was amazing. I lost a good 15 > >pounds. Of course, I gained it all back due to > > " anti " cancer protocole. They put me in > >menopause. Supposed to be for 5 years, I just > >did one year and a old cancer drug called > >Tamoxifen. What a drop in quality of > >life. After coming out of menopause, within 6 > >months, I just dropped 10 pounds. > > > >Ever since, I've pretty much substituted much of > >my " old bad " food for the healthy kinds. Whole > >Fields can be expensive ... my GYN started me on > >Mannatech products. I've been on those for > >about 1 and 1/4. Of course exercise and > >drinking nothing by water is pertinent. Sleep > >schedule gets boring (10 pm), but important. > > > >I'm talking to much ... thanks for lis tening ... > >give me any advice you can ... L > > > >-------------- Original message -------------- > >From: <mailto:GMCLADY98%40aol.com>GMCLADY98@... > > > > the neck was my worse pain...I even had a > >neck/spine surgery cause they said it was a > >disc... it wasn't. Just to let you know 5 months > >after explant.....my neck pain is almost > >gone...I do have some bad days and I don't know > >what brings it on but on a hole its much better. > > > > > > > > > >---------- > >AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out > >more about what's free from AOL at > ><<http://www.aol.com/?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000339>http://www.aol.com/ > ?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000339>AOL.com. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 24, 2007 Report Share Posted March 24, 2007 Hi LCL! LOL . .. I couldn't handle the abrupt cessation of estrogen . . .even post-menopause. . . I have a number of friends who are long term breast cancer survivors . .. They all did different therapies . .. the only difference is those who took the long term meds aged faster. I figure those of us who are watched so carefully by our doctors are better off than those who are walking around without a clue. . . I don't worry about cancer at all! Rogene Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 24, 2007 Report Share Posted March 24, 2007 My feeling was that the follow up checkups are as much to see how fast you're aging as it is to watch for cancer! . . . You're right Lynda . . . that's nasty stuff! When they can target a specific type of cancer, I'll consider medication. Rogene Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 24, 2007 Report Share Posted March 24, 2007 Lynda ... WOW !!! Even more congrats ... Mine was 1.2 cm, Stage 1, but growth was 2, est pos also. 20 percent invasive ... 3 lymph nodes were taken, no nodes affected. -------------- Original message -------------- From: Lynda <coss@...> L,I had second stage ductal carcinoma. One lymph node. A large cancer in one breast. It was being fed by hormones, but chemo puts you through menopause, so there are less hormones affecting your body.I try to eat right and keep my health up, don't do junk food, no soda, avoid sugars, lots of good veggies, avoid white starches, etc.I think attitude is everything. I did do chemo for 5 treatments. No radiation.I would never advise tamoxifen for anyone. Nasty stuff. I refused it, to the chagrin of my oncologist.LyndaAt 06:31 PM 3/24/2007, you wrote:>Hi Lynda ...>>WOW !!! congratulations on the 17 years ... that's wonderful >!! Thanks so much for telling me ... I always worry .... this >constant cloud over my head.>>I used Tamoxifen, chemically-induced menopause, and radiation. I >did volunteer in a SOFT Trial originally for 5 years but couldn't do >the cold-turkey menopause. I didn't stay on Tamoxifen either, >although still have in cabinet. My ONC suggested I get back on it.>>What are you doing/have done to keep at bay? What type of cancer, >did you catch early?>> L (I'll use LCL from now on .... )>>-------------- Original message -------------->From: Lynda <cossprivatei>>> L.>>I refused the Tamoxifen when I had breast>cancer. I read the research and the side>effects, it helps 9% of women. It has such major>side effects. I am 17 years post cancer.>>I hope you are off it now. I knew people who took it for 5 years.>>Lynda (another Lynda L.), but my name is spelled>with a y so everyone knows it is me.>>Lynda>>At 05:20 AM 3/24/2007, you wrote:>> >Hi ... I a m looking so forward to getting these> >taken out !!! I also notice when I do upper> >body weights in the gym ... it "starts" to come> >on. Pinched nerves ... what an experiment we> >are ... I'd like to see how many of these "side> >effects" disappear over time. Joints have> >bothered me alot. I've noticed it's "damaged"> >joints that I have in my body ... knees, neck, lower back, etc.> >> >The summer before diagnosis (diag Dec 04), I> >went thru a big "cleanse." Used my Colonic>gt;lady, started using cleansing herbs, was on a> >strict cleansing diet and eventually did coffee> >cleanses. I'm telling you ... I felt like a new> >person ... it was amazing. I lost a good 15> >pounds. Of course, I gained it all back due to> >"anti" cancer protocole. They put me in> >menopause. Supposed to be for 5 years, I just> > ;did one year and a old cancer drug called> >Tamoxifen. What a drop in quality of> >life. After coming out of menopause, within 6> >months, I just dropped 10 pounds.> >> >Ever since, I've pretty much substituted much of> >my "old bad" food for the healthy kinds. Whole> >Fields can be expensive ... my GYN started me on> >Mannatech products. I've been on those for> >about 1 and 1/4. Of course exercise and> >drinking nothing by water is pertinent. Sleep> >schedule gets boring (10 pm), but important.> >> >I'm talking to much ... thanks for lis tening ...> >give me any advice you can ... L> >> >-------------- Original message --------------> >From: <mailto:GMCLADY98%40aol.com>GMCLADY98aol> >> > the neck was my worse pain...I even had a> >neck/spine surgery cause they said it was a> >disc... it wasn't. Just to let you know 5 months> >after explant.....my neck pain is almost> >gone...I do have some bad days and I don't know> >what brings it on but on a hole its much better. > >> >> >> >> >----------> >AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out> >more about what's free from AOL at> ><<http://www.aol.com/?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000339>http://www.aol.com/ > ?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000339>AOL.com.> >> >>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2010 Report Share Posted May 11, 2010 In a message dated 5/11/2010 9:07:36 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, spadeboy@... writes: Hi Lads Can anybody tell me more about Tamoxifen? What is your experience with it and what kind of dose is required? Thanks for your time men Ade I loath tamoxifen. While it's an effective SERM for either PCT or gyno prevention/treatment (for which I much prefer raloxifene), it causes side effects in a large number of people, myself included--insomnia, depression, skin rashes, blurred vision. Typical dose is 20mgs/day. _http://www.ergo-log.com/nolvabest.html_ (http://www.ergo-log.co m/nolvabest.html) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2010 Report Share Posted May 12, 2010 You need to use this with a Dr. this way your sure your doing it right. Here is some info about things like this at this link and a cut and paste. http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_article/sex_news_sports_funny_grok/eman_vs_tm\ an =================================================== Tamoxifen (Nolvadex) Tamoxifen is also an anti-estrogen. It started out as a means of treatment for breast cancer. Tamoxifen works in a similar fashion to that of clomiphene in that it binds competitively to estrogen receptors throughout the body. It especially binds well to the alpha receptor that can promote breast tissue growth. It, like clomiphene, can increase LH and Testosterone, but not to the same extent. One could guess that by using a higher amount of tamoxifen, you could achieve the same LH boosting effects as those seen with clomiphene. However, in one study, no difference was found in terms of LH and Testosterone levels when men were given either 5 or 10 mg daily or 20 mg daily (4). If, however, these levels were increased even higher to 40 to 80 mg, the results may have been different. For now though, I’d say clomiphene is the better of the two in terms of elevating LH and Testosterone. What else is good about tamoxifen? It’s been shown to be beneficial to blood profiles by lowering LDL (5). It also has antioxidant properties as well as anti-yeast/viral effects. Last but not least, it’s been shown to be very effective at treating gynecomastia. With dosages of 40 mg per day it was shown to be effective in 80% of men with gyno. A dosage of 10 to 20 mg was also shown to be effective. (6,7) Personally, I’d use 20 to 40 mg per day if I wanted to prevent gyno. For an elevation in LH, however, I’d use around 80 to 100 mg per day. The half life of tamoxifen is five to seven days. The cost for Nolvadex is around $1.80 per tablet while the generic brand is about twenty cents cheaper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2010 Report Share Posted May 12, 2010 Hey there Phil Thanks for this. Your input is always fantastic. Re the cost of any drugs, I have a pre-payment card. This cost somewhere around £120 per year, but I pay for it monthly and as a result all of my medications using an NHS prescription are free. What this is about - the endo I see is more than happy for me to trial Arimidex but would prefer if we gave Tamoxifen a try first. My estradiol levels are through the roof at the moment and so we are looking for ways to bring them down. So far he has been very receptive to all of my suggestions, HCG, Arimidex and all of that. He tends to start one thing at a time, perfect the dose etc and then move on, rather than just do a load at once. I am not sure if you remember from the other time, but my T levels were way high. These are now perfect and I am on the same dose. Also, I bought some supplements from Predator Nutrition just to try out. There is one called Arom X and another called Dermacrine. Not sure how good they will be but both are supposed to lower estradiol etc. Thanks again Phil From: philip georgian Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2010 3:43 PM Subject: Re: Tamoxifen You need to use this with a Dr. this way your sure your doing it right. Here is some info about things like this at this link and a cut and paste. http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_article/sex_news_sports_funny_grok/eman_vs_tm\ an =================================================== Tamoxifen (Nolvadex) Tamoxifen is also an anti-estrogen. It started out as a means of treatment for breast cancer. Tamoxifen works in a similar fashion to that of clomiphene in that it binds competitively to estrogen receptors throughout the body. It especially binds well to the alpha receptor that can promote breast tissue growth. It, like clomiphene, can increase LH and Testosterone, but not to the same extent. One could guess that by using a higher amount of tamoxifen, you could achieve the same LH boosting effects as those seen with clomiphene. However, in one study, no difference was found in terms of LH and Testosterone levels when men were given either 5 or 10 mg daily or 20 mg daily (4). If, however, these levels were increased even higher to 40 to 80 mg, the results may have been different. For now though, I’d say clomiphene is the better of the two in terms of elevating LH and Testosterone. What else is good about tamoxifen? It’s been shown to be beneficial to blood profiles by lowering LDL (5). It also has antioxidant properties as well as anti-yeast/viral effects. Last but not least, it’s been shown to be very effective at treating gynecomastia. With dosages of 40 mg per day it was shown to be effective in 80% of men with gyno. A dosage of 10 to 20 mg was also shown to be effective. (6,7) Personally, I’d use 20 to 40 mg per day if I wanted to prevent gyno. For an elevation in LH, however, I’d use around 80 to 100 mg per day. The half life of tamoxifen is five to seven days. The cost for Nolvadex is around $1.80 per tablet while the generic brand is about twenty cents cheaper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2010 Report Share Posted May 12, 2010 You need to understand one thing you don't do TRT or HCG with Tamoxifen and any meds like Arimidex. If I had chouse between the use of Tamoxifen and say HCG or even HCG with TRT I would pick HCG with TRT. Tamoxifen is not good to take long term for keeping you T levels up. If it were you would be seeing all kinds of posting about it and what dose men use. This is a drug Steroid users do when coming off the Steroid to jump start there testis and Pituitay. If your Secondary your better off doing HCG 100 IU's a day then see how your levels look and how you feel if not great add some Testosterone to it. Go to Dr. 's site www.allthingsmale.com and read TRT: A Recipe for Success and his HCG Update. Men on Steroids do it in cycles so there testis keep working and use Clomid or Tamoxifen for this. Dr.'s use it to test to see if the man is Secondary or Primary if his levels don't go up on it he is Primary and his testis don't make enough T. Co-Moderator Phil > From: Ade Maiquel Rowley <spadeboy@...> > Subject: Re: Tamoxifen > > Date: Wednesday, May 12, 2010, 12:21 PM > Hey there Phil > > Thanks for this. Your input is always fantastic. > > Re the cost of any drugs, I have a pre-payment card. > This cost somewhere around £120 per year, but I pay for it > monthly and as a result all of my medications using an NHS > prescription are free. > > What this is about - the endo I see is more than happy for > me to trial Arimidex but would prefer if we gave Tamoxifen a > try first. My estradiol levels are through the roof at > the moment and so we are looking for ways to bring them > down. So far he has been very receptive to all of my > suggestions, HCG, Arimidex and all of that. He tends > to start one thing at a time, perfect the dose etc and then > move on, rather than just do a load at once. > > I am not sure if you remember from the other time, but my T > levels were way high. These are now perfect and I am > on the same dose. > > Also, I bought some supplements from Predator Nutrition > just to try out. There is one called Arom X and > another called Dermacrine. Not sure how good they will > be but both are supposed to lower estradiol etc. > > Thanks again Phil > > > From: philip georgian > Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2010 3:43 PM > > > Subject: Re: Tamoxifen > > >  > You need to use this with a Dr. this way your sure your > doing it right. Here is some info about things like this at > this link and a cut and paste. > http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_article/sex_news_sports_funny_grok/eman_vs_tm\ an > =================================================== > Tamoxifen (Nolvadex) > > Tamoxifen is also an anti-estrogen. It started out as a > means of treatment for breast cancer. Tamoxifen works in a > similar fashion to that of clomiphene in that it binds > competitively to estrogen receptors throughout the body. It > especially binds well to the alpha receptor that can promote > breast tissue growth. It, like clomiphene, can increase LH > and Testosterone, but not to the same extent. > > One could guess that by using a higher amount of tamoxifen, > you could achieve the same LH boosting effects as those seen > with clomiphene. However, in one study, no difference was > found in terms of LH and Testosterone levels when men were > given either 5 or 10 mg daily or 20 mg daily (4). If, > however, these levels were increased even higher to 40 to 80 > mg, the results may have been different. For now though, > I’d say clomiphene is the better of the two in terms of > elevating LH and Testosterone. > > What else is good about tamoxifen? It’s been shown to be > beneficial to blood profiles by lowering LDL (5). It also > has antioxidant properties as well as anti-yeast/viral > effects. Last but not least, it’s been shown to be very > effective at treating gynecomastia. With dosages of 40 mg > per day it was shown to be effective in 80% of men with > gyno. A dosage of 10 to 20 mg was also shown to be > effective. (6,7) Personally, I’d use 20 to 40 mg per day > if I wanted to prevent gyno. For an elevation in LH, > however, I’d use around 80 to 100 mg per day. The half > life of tamoxifen is five to seven days. > > The cost for Nolvadex is around $1.80 per tablet while the > generic brand is about twenty cents cheaper. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2010 Report Share Posted May 12, 2010 Stay away from it. I know from experience. Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile Re: Tamoxifen > > >  > You need to use this with a Dr. this way your sure your > doing it right. Here is some info about things like this at > this link and a cut and paste. > http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_article/sex_news_sports_funny_grok/eman_vs_tm\ an > =================================================== > Tamoxifen (Nolvadex) > > Tamoxifen is also an anti-estrogen. It started out as a > means of treatment for breast cancer. Tamoxifen works in a > similar fashion to that of clomiphene in that it binds > competitively to estrogen receptors throughout the body. It > especially binds well to the alpha receptor that can promote > breast tissue growth. It, like clomiphene, can increase LH > and Testosterone, but not to the same extent. > > One could guess that by using a higher amount of tamoxifen, > you could achieve the same LH boosting effects as those seen > with clomiphene. However, in one study, no difference was > found in terms of LH and Testosterone levels when men were > given either 5 or 10 mg daily or 20 mg daily (4). If, > however, these levels were increased even higher to 40 to 80 > mg, the results may have been different. For now though, > I’d say clomiphene is the better of the two in terms of > elevating LH and Testosterone. > > What else is good about tamoxifen? It’s been shown to be > beneficial to blood profiles by lowering LDL (5). It also > has antioxidant properties as well as anti-yeast/viral > effects. Last but not least, it’s been shown to be very > effective at treating gynecomastia. With dosages of 40 mg > per day it was shown to be effective in 80% of men with > gyno. A dosage of 10 to 20 mg was also shown to be > effective. (6,7) Personally, I’d use 20 to 40 mg per day > if I wanted to prevent gyno. For an elevation in LH, > however, I’d use around 80 to 100 mg per day. The half > life of tamoxifen is five to seven days. > > The cost for Nolvadex is around $1.80 per tablet while the > generic brand is about twenty cents cheaper. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2010 Report Share Posted May 12, 2010 Hi Phil and Marc Firstly I do apologise for not making myself clear. The doctor I see has no intention of doing TRT, HCG, Tamoxifen and Arimidex altogether, nor is he using this to test me for some other condition and he is perfectly aware what the cause of my problems are. I was first given testosterone in gel form. Once my dose was fully stabilised and my level consistent, the doctor was happy to move on from this and address any other issues I had. He is by no means adverse to using HCG and freely gave me this at a dose of 100 iu per day (which I must say works very well). However, we are left with the problem that I have high levels of circulating oestrogens and these - as you guys already know - do cause problems. Digressing slightly, I do already have pre-existing conditions which I must take quite a lot of medication for. Meniere's disease for one and furthermore I am a transplant recipient so must take anti-rejection drugs for the rest of my life. This will give some influence over his choice of medication for me. In order to address the oestrogen issue, his first choice is Tamoxifen. This does not interact with either testosterone nor HCG. The blood I have drawn each month thus far shows a marked improvement in my liver function tests (which were looking dire) and absolutely spot on testosterone levels (24.5 last time). The only thing we did not see is any particular reduction in oestradiol levels, which remain high. However, before we move on to drugs like Arimidex he would like to investigate this route completely and given the relative cost of the two drugs, I think he may have a hard time not taking this action with the current state of economic affairs in the UK. It does not seem that you guys have had a very positive experience with Tamoxifen, which is a shame, but to be fair I never see it mentioned a lot on the boards so I figured it might not get good praise. I see the doctor again in three weeks and will mention this then. I think that given the fact that this has so far made zero difference to me personally that we can safely say it would be alright to move on to Arimidex. One little surprise for me there was the fact that when I mentioned Arimidex, he was already fully aware of the suggested use and dose of the drug at 250 mcg ever two or three days and actually showed me quite a few research papers he had on this. Given the other issues he has addressed with me, I must say I have had nothing but a very positive experience from him. The other suggestion which my doctor made was to begin taking something like Cialis on a low daily dose. However, this is barred from NHS reimbursement unless it is given for very specific conditions and then only from specified clinics. Unless I could qualify for that, then this is ruled out completely because I would be unable to fund a regular private prescription at the cost of £150 per month. Thanks for your comments on this - I will bear them in mind at my next consultation. Ade From: Marc Michaud Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2010 10:21 PM Subject: Re: Tamoxifen Stay away from it. I know from experience. Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile Re: Tamoxifen > > > > You need to use this with a Dr. this way your sure your > doing it right. Here is some info about things like this at > this link and a cut and paste. > http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_article/sex_news_sports_funny_grok/eman_vs_tm\ an > =================================================== > Tamoxifen (Nolvadex) > > Tamoxifen is also an anti-estrogen. It started out as a > means of treatment for breast cancer. Tamoxifen works in a > similar fashion to that of clomiphene in that it binds > competitively to estrogen receptors throughout the body. It > especially binds well to the alpha receptor that can promote > breast tissue growth. It, like clomiphene, can increase LH > and Testosterone, but not to the same extent. > > One could guess that by using a higher amount of tamoxifen, > you could achieve the same LH boosting effects as those seen > with clomiphene. However, in one study, no difference was > found in terms of LH and Testosterone levels when men were > given either 5 or 10 mg daily or 20 mg daily (4). If, > however, these levels were increased even higher to 40 to 80 > mg, the results may have been different. For now though, > I’d say clomiphene is the better of the two in terms of > elevating LH and Testosterone. > > What else is good about tamoxifen? It’s been shown to be > beneficial to blood profiles by lowering LDL (5). It also > has antioxidant properties as well as anti-yeast/viral > effects. Last but not least, it’s been shown to be very > effective at treating gynecomastia. With dosages of 40 mg > per day it was shown to be effective in 80% of men with > gyno. A dosage of 10 to 20 mg was also shown to be > effective. (6,7) Personally, I’d use 20 to 40 mg per day > if I wanted to prevent gyno. For an elevation in LH, > however, I’d use around 80 to 100 mg per day. The half > life of tamoxifen is five to seven days. > > The cost for Nolvadex is around $1.80 per tablet while the > generic brand is about twenty cents cheaper. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2010 Report Share Posted May 12, 2010 In a message dated 5/12/2010 4:06:01 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, spadeboy@... writes: Hi Phil and Marc Firstly I do apologise for not making myself clear. The doctor I see has no intention of doing TRT, HCG, Tamoxifen and Arimidex altogether, nor is he using this to test me for some other condition and he is perfectly aware what the cause of my problems are. I was first given testosterone in gel form. Once my dose was fully stabilised and my level consistent, the doctor was happy to move on from this and address any other issues I had. He is by no means adverse to using HCG and freely gave me this at a dose of 100 iu per day (which I must say works very well). However, we are left with the problem that I have high levels of circulating oestrogens and these - as you guys already know - do cause problems. Digressing slightly, I do already have pre-existing conditions which I must take quite a lot of medication for. Meniere's disease for one and furthermore I am a transplant recipient so must take anti-rejection drugs for the rest of my life. This will give some influence over his choice of medication for me. In order to address the oestrogen issue, his first choice is Tamoxifen. This does not interact with either testosterone nor HCG. The blood I have drawn each month thus far shows a marked improvement in my liver function tests (which were looking dire) and absolutely spot on testosterone levels (24.5 last time). The only thing we did not see is any particular reduction in oestradiol levels, which remain high. << You do understand that tamoxifen is a SERM, not an aromatase-inhibitor? If you want to reduce estrogen levels, use an aromatase inhibitor. SERMs function as estrogen-agonists on some tissues and antagonists on others. If you are tying to treat gyno while on TRT, tamoxifen or raloxifene is appropriate. If you are trying to restart your own testosterone production after getting off TRT, tamoxifen or clomiphene is appropriate. If you are trying to deal with lack of libido while on TRT due to high estrogen level, SERMs suck ass. However, before we move on to drugs like Arimidex he would like to investigate this route completely and given the relative cost of the two drugs, I think he may have a hard time not taking this action with the current state of economic affairs in the UK.<< So order it yourself for cheap. It does not seem that you guys have had a very positive experience with Tamoxifen, which is a shame, but to be fair I never see it mentioned a lot on the boards so I figured it might not get good praise. I see the doctor again in three weeks and will mention this then. I think that given the fact that this has so far made zero difference to me personally that we can safely say it would be alright to move on to Arimidex. One little surprise for me there was the fact that when I mentioned Arimidex, he was already fully aware of the suggested use and dose of the drug at 250 mcg ever two or three days and actually showed me quite a few research papers he had on this. Given the other issues he has addressed with me, I must say I have had nothing but a very positive experience from him. The other suggestion which my doctor made was to begin taking something like Cialis on a low daily dose. However, this is barred from NHS reimbursement unless it is given for very specific conditions and then only from specified clinics. Unless I could qualify for that, then this is ruled out completely because I would be unable to fund a regular private prescription at the cost of £150 per month.<< You can find very, very cheap Cialis online. _http://bulk.airsealed.com/_ (http://bulk.airsealed.com/) sells it for under $10 per GRAM. Thanks for your comments on this - I will bear them in mind at my next consultation. Ade Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2010 Report Share Posted May 13, 2010 Dr replied to one of my postings about Nolvadex and said have of the product is estergen. Nolvadex D gave me jaundice, raised my E2, ED and libido problems. Just my thoughts. Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile Re: Tamoxifen In a message dated 5/12/2010 4:06:01 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, spadeboy@... writes: Hi Phil and Marc Firstly I do apologise for not making myself clear. The doctor I see has no intention of doing TRT, HCG, Tamoxifen and Arimidex altogether, nor is he using this to test me for some other condition and he is perfectly aware what the cause of my problems are. I was first given testosterone in gel form. Once my dose was fully stabilised and my level consistent, the doctor was happy to move on from this and address any other issues I had. He is by no means adverse to using HCG and freely gave me this at a dose of 100 iu per day (which I must say works very well). However, we are left with the problem that I have high levels of circulating oestrogens and these - as you guys already know - do cause problems. Digressing slightly, I do already have pre-existing conditions which I must take quite a lot of medication for. Meniere's disease for one and furthermore I am a transplant recipient so must take anti-rejection drugs for the rest of my life. This will give some influence over his choice of medication for me. In order to address the oestrogen issue, his first choice is Tamoxifen. This does not interact with either testosterone nor HCG. The blood I have drawn each month thus far shows a marked improvement in my liver function tests (which were looking dire) and absolutely spot on testosterone levels (24.5 last time). The only thing we did not see is any particular reduction in oestradiol levels, which remain high. << You do understand that tamoxifen is a SERM, not an aromatase-inhibitor? If you want to reduce estrogen levels, use an aromatase inhibitor. SERMs function as estrogen-agonists on some tissues and antagonists on others. If you are tying to treat gyno while on TRT, tamoxifen or raloxifene is appropriate. If you are trying to restart your own testosterone production after getting off TRT, tamoxifen or clomiphene is appropriate. If you are trying to deal with lack of libido while on TRT due to high estrogen level, SERMs suck ass. However, before we move on to drugs like Arimidex he would like to investigate this route completely and given the relative cost of the two drugs, I think he may have a hard time not taking this action with the current state of economic affairs in the UK.<< So order it yourself for cheap. It does not seem that you guys have had a very positive experience with Tamoxifen, which is a shame, but to be fair I never see it mentioned a lot on the boards so I figured it might not get good praise. I see the doctor again in three weeks and will mention this then. I think that given the fact that this has so far made zero difference to me personally that we can safely say it would be alright to move on to Arimidex. One little surprise for me there was the fact that when I mentioned Arimidex, he was already fully aware of the suggested use and dose of the drug at 250 mcg ever two or three days and actually showed me quite a few research papers he had on this. Given the other issues he has addressed with me, I must say I have had nothing but a very positive experience from him. The other suggestion which my doctor made was to begin taking something like Cialis on a low daily dose. However, this is barred from NHS reimbursement unless it is given for very specific conditions and then only from specified clinics. Unless I could qualify for that, then this is ruled out completely because I would be unable to fund a regular private prescription at the cost of £150 per month.<< You can find very, very cheap Cialis online._http://bulk.airsealed.com/_ (http://bulk.airsealed.com/) sells it for under $10 per GRAM. Thanks for your comments on this - I will bear them in mind at my next consultation. Ade Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2010 Report Share Posted May 13, 2010 IMPO tamoxifen should NOT be " first choice " for controlling estrogen. For indeed, it does nothing of the sort. Drugs of the SERM class merely block estrogen at some tissues, while acting as estrogen at others. The body may sense estrogen is too low because of this, and actually increase its production in response! First choice in controlling estrogen would be altering dosing of testosterone, where possible (a complex subject). Next is employment of an aromatase inhibitor. I favor the competitive inhibitor anastrozole. The simple fact is no one knows what long term use of a SERM will do to us. But we do know it lowers growth hormone, and this is a powerfully negative side effect with respect to our health. Be well! Regards, Crisler, DO Anti-Aging Medicine The information contained in this message is intended only for the personal and confidential use of the recipient(s) named above, and is protected by state and federal law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient or an agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that you have received this document in error and that any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately, and delete the original message. We would certainly do the same for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2010 Report Share Posted May 13, 2010 Great post. I made my appointment to see you. I'm scheduled for June 3. Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile Re: Tamoxifen IMPO tamoxifen should NOT be " first choice " for controlling estrogen. For indeed, it does nothing of the sort. Drugs of the SERM class merely block estrogen at some tissues, while acting as estrogen at others. The body may sense estrogen is too low because of this, and actually increase its production in response! First choice in controlling estrogen would be altering dosing of testosterone, where possible (a complex subject). Next is employment of an aromatase inhibitor. I favor the competitive inhibitor anastrozole. The simple fact is no one knows what long term use of a SERM will do to us. But we do know it lowers growth hormone, and this is a powerfully negative side effect with respect to our health. Be well! Regards, Crisler, DO Anti-Aging Medicine The information contained in this message is intended only for the personal and confidential use of the recipient(s) named above, and is protected by state and federal law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient or an agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that you have received this document in error and that any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately, and delete the original message. We would certainly do the same for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2010 Report Share Posted May 13, 2010 It sounds to me like you in good hands with this Dr. I never took Tamoxifen and from what I have read about it taking it on TRT is like adding 10 to a -10 and trying to get 20. TRT shuts you down your brain sees the T in your blood and slows down of stops sending the LH message to your Testis to make more T. Tamoxifen tries to get your brain to send this message of LH so on one hand your shutting LH down and on the other hand you pushing your brain to make it. Not good if your Estradiol levels are high it will take away any good the TRT is doing for you. If you can't get on Arimidex then go on Indolplex/DIM I know a lot of men in the UK on this. Do a search over there and find a store that sells it or buy it off the web. I hate to tell you this but I have read that some men on Tamoxifen ended up with higher levels of Estradiol. Here is a cut and paste on what Dr. 's just said this yr. about it's use. ==================================================== #6 03-23-2010 Dr. Crisler ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond Join Date: Dec 09, 2007 Location: East Lansing, MI Posts: 4,864 Re: TRT with tamoxifen? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: Originally Posted by cumkwakka I read a post on the fin board about a guy who uses 100 mg TRT and uses tamoxifen 10 mg daily to control estrogen. I suppose it would keep nuts healthy as well. He says he feels great on it. Is this something you guys or Dr Crisler would recommend? Instead of arimidex? A strange combo but it works for him.. no sides also. What do you think? He doesn't know what the sides are. He has no idea what is happening inside him. Tamoxifen has now been proven to me to lower GH and IGF-1 levels. Sound good? You have to remember half the tamoxifen tablet is an estrogen. So you are elevating, not controlling, estrogen. The simple fact is no one knows what long term use of drugs of this class will do to adult males. __________________ www.AllThingsMale.com Any information I may provide does not substitute for a proper medical evaluation by a medical professional; nor does it constitute doctor/patient relationship, or liability, in any way. Co-Moderator Phil > > > From: Ade Maiquel Rowley <spadeboy@...> > > > Subject: Re: Tamoxifen > > > > > Date: Wednesday, May 12, 2010, 12:21 PM > > Hey there Phil > > > > Thanks for this. Your input is always fantastic. > > > > > Re the cost of any drugs, I have a pre-payment > card. > > This cost somewhere around £120 per year, but I pay > for it > > monthly and as a result all of my medications using an > NHS > > prescription are free. > > > > What this is about - the endo I see is more than happy > for > > me to trial Arimidex but would prefer if we gave > Tamoxifen a > > try first. My estradiol levels are through the > roof at > > the moment and so we are looking for ways to bring > them > > down. So far he has been very receptive to all > of my > > suggestions, HCG, Arimidex and all of that. He > tends > > to start one thing at a time, perfect the dose etc and > then > > move on, rather than just do a load at once. > > > > I am not sure if you remember from the other time, but > my T > > levels were way high. These are now perfect and > I am > > on the same dose. > > > > Also, I bought some supplements from Predator > Nutrition > > just to try out. There is one called Arom X and > > > another called Dermacrine. Not sure how good > they will > > be but both are supposed to lower estradiol etc. > > > > > Thanks again Phil > > > > > > From: philip georgian > > Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2010 3:43 PM > > > > > > > Subject: Re: Tamoxifen > > > > > >   > > You need to use this with a Dr. this way your sure > your > > doing it right. Here is some info about things like > this at > > this link and a cut and paste. > > http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_article/sex_news_sports_funny_grok/eman_vs_tm\ an > > > =================================================== > > Tamoxifen (Nolvadex) > > > > Tamoxifen is also an anti-estrogen. It started out as > a > > means of treatment for breast cancer. Tamoxifen works > in a > > similar fashion to that of clomiphene in that it binds > > > competitively to estrogen receptors throughout the > body. It > > especially binds well to the alpha receptor that can > promote > > breast tissue growth. It, like clomiphene, can > increase LH > > and Testosterone, but not to the same extent. > > > > One could guess that by using a higher amount of > tamoxifen, > > you could achieve the same LH boosting effects as > those seen > > with clomiphene. However, in one study, no difference > was > > found in terms of LH and Testosterone levels when men > were > > given either 5 or 10 mg daily or 20 mg daily (4). If, > > > however, these levels were increased even higher to 40 > to 80 > > mg, the results may have been different. For now > though, > > I’d say clomiphene is the better of the two in terms > of > > elevating LH and Testosterone. > > > > What else is good about tamoxifen? It’s been shown > to be > > beneficial to blood profiles by lowering LDL (5). It > also > > has antioxidant properties as well as anti-yeast/viral > > > effects. Last but not least, it’s been shown to be > very > > effective at treating gynecomastia. With dosages of 40 > mg > > per day it was shown to be effective in 80% of men > with > > gyno. A dosage of 10 to 20 mg was also shown to be > > effective. (6,7) Personally, I’d use 20 to 40 mg per > day > > if I wanted to prevent gyno. For an elevation in LH, > > however, I’d use around 80 to 100 mg per day. The > half > > life of tamoxifen is five to seven days. > > > > The cost for Nolvadex is around $1.80 per tablet while > the > > generic brand is about twenty cents cheaper. > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2010 Report Share Posted May 13, 2010 One more thing I have been on Cialis from the day it came out my Health Care plain will not pay for it now. But my Heart Dr. put me on this for my heart and now they pay for it. Still if you get your Estradiol levels down and don't worry about keep it up for sex you might not need it. Co-Moderator Phil > From: WithBACON@... <WithBACON@...> > Subject: Re: Tamoxifen > > Date: Thursday, May 13, 2010, 1:44 AM > In a message dated 5/12/2010 4:06:01 > P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, > spadeboy@... > writes: > > Hi Phil and Marc > > Firstly I do apologise for not making myself clear. > The doctor I see has > no intention of doing TRT, HCG, Tamoxifen and > Arimidex altogether, nor is he > using this to test me for some other condition and he > is perfectly aware > what the cause of my problems are. > > I was first given testosterone in gel form. Once my > dose was fully > stabilised and my level consistent, the doctor was > happy to move on from this and > address any other issues I had. He is by no means > adverse to using HCG and > freely gave me this at a dose of 100 iu per day > (which I must say works > very well). However, we are left with the problem > that I have high levels of > circulating oestrogens and these - as you guys > already know - do cause > problems. > > Digressing slightly, I do already have pre-existing > conditions which I > must take quite a lot of medication for. Meniere's > disease for one and > furthermore I am a transplant recipient so must take > anti-rejection drugs for the > rest of my life. This will give some influence over > his choice of > medication for me. > > In order to address the oestrogen issue, his first choice > is Tamoxifen. > This does not interact with either testosterone nor HCG. > The blood I have > drawn each month thus far shows a marked improvement in my > liver function > tests (which were looking dire) and absolutely spot on > testosterone levels > (24.5 last time). The only thing we did not see is any > particular reduction in > oestradiol levels, which remain high. << > You do understand that tamoxifen is a SERM, not an > aromatase-inhibitor? > > If you want to reduce estrogen levels, use an aromatase > inhibitor. > > SERMs function as estrogen-agonists on some tissues and > antagonists on > others. If you are tying to treat gyno while on TRT, > tamoxifen or raloxifene is > appropriate. If you are trying to restart your own > testosterone production > after getting off TRT, tamoxifen or clomiphene is > appropriate. If you are > trying to deal with lack of libido while on TRT due > to high estrogen level, > SERMs suck ass. > > However, before we move on to drugs like Arimidex he would > like to > investigate this route completely and given the relative > cost of the two drugs, I > think he may have a hard time not taking this action with > the current state > of economic affairs in the UK.<< > So order it yourself for cheap. > > > > It does not seem that you guys have had a very > positive experience with > Tamoxifen, which is a shame, but to be fair I never see > it mentioned a lot on > the boards so I figured it might not get good praise. I > see the doctor > again in three weeks and will mention this then. I think > that given the fact > that this has so far made zero difference to me personally > that we can > safely say it would be alright to move on to Arimidex. One > little surprise for > me there was the fact that when I mentioned Arimidex, he > was already fully > aware of the suggested use and dose of the drug at 250 mcg > ever two or three > days and actually showed me quite a few research papers he > had on this. > Given the other issues he has addressed with me, I > must say I have had nothing > but a very positive experience from him. > > The other suggestion which my doctor made was to > begin taking something > like Cialis on a low daily dose. However, this is > barred from NHS > reimbursement unless it is given for very specific > conditions and then only from > specified clinics. Unless I could qualify for that, > then this is ruled out > completely because I would be unable to fund a > regular private prescription at > the cost of £150 per month.<< > You can find very, very cheap Cialis online. _http://bulk.airsealed.com/_ > (http://bulk.airsealed.com/) sells it for > under $10 per GRAM. > > > > Thanks for your comments on this - I will bear them in mind > at my next > consultation. > > Ade > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2010 Report Share Posted May 13, 2010 I took Nolvadex and T cream together. My DHT and E2 went through the roof. Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile Re: Tamoxifen > > > > > >   > > You need to use this with a Dr. this way your sure > your > > doing it right. Here is some info about things like > this at > > this link and a cut and paste. > > http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_article/sex_news_sports_funny_grok/eman_vs_tm\ an > > > =================================================== > > Tamoxifen (Nolvadex) > > > > Tamoxifen is also an anti-estrogen. It started out as > a > > means of treatment for breast cancer. Tamoxifen works > in a > > similar fashion to that of clomiphene in that it binds > > > competitively to estrogen receptors throughout the > body. It > > especially binds well to the alpha receptor that can > promote > > breast tissue growth. It, like clomiphene, can > increase LH > > and Testosterone, but not to the same extent. > > > > One could guess that by using a higher amount of > tamoxifen, > > you could achieve the same LH boosting effects as > those seen > > with clomiphene. However, in one study, no difference > was > > found in terms of LH and Testosterone levels when men > were > > given either 5 or 10 mg daily or 20 mg daily (4). If, > > > however, these levels were increased even higher to 40 > to 80 > > mg, the results may have been different. For now > though, > > I’d say clomiphene is the better of the two in terms > of > > elevating LH and Testosterone. > > > > What else is good about tamoxifen? It’s been shown > to be > > beneficial to blood profiles by lowering LDL (5). It > also > > has antioxidant properties as well as anti-yeast/viral > > > effects. Last but not least, it’s been shown to be > very > > effective at treating gynecomastia. With dosages of 40 > mg > > per day it was shown to be effective in 80% of men > with > > gyno. A dosage of 10 to 20 mg was also shown to be > > effective. (6,7) Personally, I’d use 20 to 40 mg per > day > > if I wanted to prevent gyno. For an elevation in LH, > > however, I’d use around 80 to 100 mg per day. The > half > > life of tamoxifen is five to seven days. > > > > The cost for Nolvadex is around $1.80 per tablet while > the > > generic brand is about twenty cents cheaper. > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2010 Report Share Posted May 13, 2010 Thanks Dr. this needed to be addressed comes up a lot. Co-Moderator Phil > From: Crisler, DO <drjohn@...> > Subject: Re: Tamoxifen > > Date: Thursday, May 13, 2010, 8:07 AM > IMPO tamoxifen should NOT be " first > choice " for controlling estrogen. For > indeed, it does nothing of the sort. Drugs of the SERM > class merely block > estrogen at some tissues, while acting as estrogen at > others. The body may > sense estrogen is too low because of this, and actually > increase its > production in response! > > > > First choice in controlling estrogen would be altering > dosing of > testosterone, where possible (a complex subject). Next is > employment of an > aromatase inhibitor. I favor the competitive inhibitor > anastrozole. > > > > The simple fact is no one knows what long term use of a > SERM will do to us. > But we do know it lowers growth hormone, and this is a > powerfully negative > side effect with respect to our health. > > > > Be well! > > Regards, > > > Crisler, DO > > Anti-Aging Medicine > > The information contained in this message is intended only > for the personal > and confidential use of the recipient(s) named above, and > is protected by > state and federal law. If the reader of this message is not > the intended > recipient or an agent responsible for delivering it to the > intended recipient, you are hereby notified that you have > received this > document in error and that any review, dissemination, > distribution, or > copying of this message is strictly prohibited. If you have > received this > communication in error, please notify us immediately, and > delete the > original message. We would certainly do the same for you. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2010 Report Share Posted May 13, 2010 From: WithBACON@... Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2010 6:44 AM Subject: Re: Tamoxifen In a message dated 5/12/2010 4:06:01 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, spadeboy@... writes: Hi Phil and Marc Firstly I do apologise for not making myself clear. The doctor I see has no intention of doing TRT, HCG, Tamoxifen and Arimidex altogether, nor is he using this to test me for some other condition and he is perfectly aware what the cause of my problems are. I was first given testosterone in gel form. Once my dose was fully stabilised and my level consistent, the doctor was happy to move on from this and address any other issues I had. He is by no means adverse to using HCG and freely gave me this at a dose of 100 iu per day (which I must say works very well). However, we are left with the problem that I have high levels of circulating oestrogens and these - as you guys already know - do cause problems. Digressing slightly, I do already have pre-existing conditions which I must take quite a lot of medication for. Meniere's disease for one and furthermore I am a transplant recipient so must take anti-rejection drugs for the rest of my life. This will give some influence over his choice of medication for me. In order to address the oestrogen issue, his first choice is Tamoxifen. This does not interact with either testosterone nor HCG. The blood I have drawn each month thus far shows a marked improvement in my liver function tests (which were looking dire) and absolutely spot on testosterone levels (24.5 last time). The only thing we did not see is any particular reduction in oestradiol levels, which remain high. << You do understand that tamoxifen is a SERM, not an aromatase-inhibitor? Yes, I am well aware of that fact, thank you. If you want to reduce estrogen levels, use an aromatase inhibitor. Using Tamoxifen is the protocol my doctor is following. He is not against the use of aromatase inhibitors but prefers Tamoxifen as first line. I am not self prescribing nor self treating here. SERMs function as estrogen-agonists on some tissues and antagonists on others. If you are tying to treat gyno while on TRT, tamoxifen or raloxifene is appropriate. If you are trying to restart your own testosterone production after getting off TRT, tamoxifen or clomiphene is appropriate. If you are trying to deal with lack of libido while on TRT due to high estrogen level, SERMs suck ass. SERMs suck ass thus far I have had not a single effect from taking it, which includes side effects. However, before we move on to drugs like Arimidex he would like to investigate this route completely and given the relative cost of the two drugs, I think he may have a hard time not taking this action with the current state of economic affairs in the UK.<< So order it yourself for cheap. All of the drugs referred to on this website require a physicians prescription, certainly here in the UK. Again, I am not self prescribing here. It does not seem that you guys have had a very positive experience with Tamoxifen, which is a shame, but to be fair I never see it mentioned a lot on the boards so I figured it might not get good praise. I see the doctor again in three weeks and will mention this then. I think that given the fact that this has so far made zero difference to me personally that we can safely say it would be alright to move on to Arimidex. One little surprise for me there was the fact that when I mentioned Arimidex, he was already fully aware of the suggested use and dose of the drug at 250 mcg ever two or three days and actually showed me quite a few research papers he had on this. Given the other issues he has addressed with me, I must say I have had nothing but a very positive experience from him. The other suggestion which my doctor made was to begin taking something like Cialis on a low daily dose. However, this is barred from NHS reimbursement unless it is given for very specific conditions and then only from specified clinics. Unless I could qualify for that, then this is ruled out completely because I would be unable to fund a regular private prescription at the cost of £150 per month.<< You can find very, very cheap Cialis online. _http://bulk.airsealed.com/_ (http://bulk.airsealed.com/) sells it for under $10 per GRAM. At the present time there are five conditions for which the NHS will agree to pay for these drugs. The first four I am ruled out of because they relate to conditions such as spina bifida, MS and diabetes. There is, however, one other indication which is that when the ED causes severe stress, they will pay. For this, there is a stipulation that I am treated in a specialised clinic. However, my doctor is registered with the Sexual Advice Association (formerly Impotence Association) and they are the consultation group who agreed these principles with the NHS consulting group. If they consider my doctor as a " specialised clinic " then he may be able to swing this on a technicality and if that is the case, like my other medications, they will be taken care of on the pre-payment card. Thanks for your comments on this - I will bear them in mind at my next consultation. Ade Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2010 Report Share Posted May 13, 2010 Absolutely. I will see how it goes once the oestradiol comes down and keep you posted. Thanks Phil From: philip georgian Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2010 3:03 PM Subject: Re: Tamoxifen One more thing I have been on Cialis from the day it came out my Health Care plain will not pay for it now. But my Heart Dr. put me on this for my heart and now they pay for it. Still if you get your Estradiol levels down and don't worry about keep it up for sex you might not need it. Co-Moderator Phil > From: WithBACON@... <WithBACON@...> > Subject: Re: Tamoxifen > > Date: Thursday, May 13, 2010, 1:44 AM > In a message dated 5/12/2010 4:06:01 > P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, > spadeboy@... > writes: > > Hi Phil and Marc > > Firstly I do apologise for not making myself clear. > The doctor I see has > no intention of doing TRT, HCG, Tamoxifen and > Arimidex altogether, nor is he > using this to test me for some other condition and he > is perfectly aware > what the cause of my problems are. > > I was first given testosterone in gel form. Once my > dose was fully > stabilised and my level consistent, the doctor was > happy to move on from this and > address any other issues I had. He is by no means > adverse to using HCG and > freely gave me this at a dose of 100 iu per day > (which I must say works > very well). However, we are left with the problem > that I have high levels of > circulating oestrogens and these - as you guys > already know - do cause > problems. > > Digressing slightly, I do already have pre-existing > conditions which I > must take quite a lot of medication for. Meniere's > disease for one and > furthermore I am a transplant recipient so must take > anti-rejection drugs for the > rest of my life. This will give some influence over > his choice of > medication for me. > > In order to address the oestrogen issue, his first choice > is Tamoxifen. > This does not interact with either testosterone nor HCG. > The blood I have > drawn each month thus far shows a marked improvement in my > liver function > tests (which were looking dire) and absolutely spot on > testosterone levels > (24.5 last time). The only thing we did not see is any > particular reduction in > oestradiol levels, which remain high. << > You do understand that tamoxifen is a SERM, not an > aromatase-inhibitor? > > If you want to reduce estrogen levels, use an aromatase > inhibitor. > > SERMs function as estrogen-agonists on some tissues and > antagonists on > others. If you are tying to treat gyno while on TRT, > tamoxifen or raloxifene is > appropriate. If you are trying to restart your own > testosterone production > after getting off TRT, tamoxifen or clomiphene is > appropriate. If you are > trying to deal with lack of libido while on TRT due > to high estrogen level, > SERMs suck ass. > > However, before we move on to drugs like Arimidex he would > like to > investigate this route completely and given the relative > cost of the two drugs, I > think he may have a hard time not taking this action with > the current state > of economic affairs in the UK.<< > So order it yourself for cheap. > > > > It does not seem that you guys have had a very > positive experience with > Tamoxifen, which is a shame, but to be fair I never see > it mentioned a lot on > the boards so I figured it might not get good praise. I > see the doctor > again in three weeks and will mention this then. I think > that given the fact > that this has so far made zero difference to me personally > that we can > safely say it would be alright to move on to Arimidex. One > little surprise for > me there was the fact that when I mentioned Arimidex, he > was already fully > aware of the suggested use and dose of the drug at 250 mcg > ever two or three > days and actually showed me quite a few research papers he > had on this. > Given the other issues he has addressed with me, I > must say I have had nothing > but a very positive experience from him. > > The other suggestion which my doctor made was to > begin taking something > like Cialis on a low daily dose. However, this is > barred from NHS > reimbursement unless it is given for very specific > conditions and then only from > specified clinics. Unless I could qualify for that, > then this is ruled out > completely because I would be unable to fund a > regular private prescription at > the cost of £150 per month.<< > You can find very, very cheap Cialis online. _http://bulk.airsealed.com/_ > (http://bulk.airsealed.com/) sells it for > under $10 per GRAM. > > > > Thanks for your comments on this - I will bear them in mind > at my next > consultation. > > Ade > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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