Re: Why SO MANY get worse or die - especially of interest ...

[Guest guest]

Hi Kristy,

Read pg 69 then pg 96 this is a 13 stepper and pretty much the whole program.

Judie

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

At 09:20 PM 2/5/99 +0000, you wrote:

>Hello Folks

>

>Went to an interesting lecture abt the sociopolitics of bioreductionism

>yesterday. amongst the various disorders for which " gene therapy " has been

>suggested as a possible cureby *mainstream* geneticists, among the usual

>suspects, addiction, etc., there is apparently " homelessness " !

>Pete

Obviously nomadic peoples would have the homelessness gene, and derelict

type street people have the homelessness gene AND the alcoholism gene. It

is all starting to make sense now... ;-)

Joe Berenbaum

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Hi Rita

Mucho sense of ever. Fwd to addict-l material?

Ken, Jim or , if you have home net access, can you fwd Rits'a posts to

addict-l, as I only have college access? I also think your story ought to

have been fwded to ADD_MED too; that's where the serious 12-step commissars

hang out.

Small note: Rita's post might be mistakenly read as meaning SMART encourages

group dependency; it doesnt - in fact, one of arf's SMART contributors that

I most respect has indicated that he has specifically asked courts *not* to

coerce attendance to groups he facilitates; he doesnt want anyone there who

doesnt want to be. When I was on the SMARTREC list, ironically one of the

problems that ppl talked abt was that because ppl stopped drinking/using and

went off and got on with their lives, there were never too many ppl to

ensure a reasonable level of support for new ppl who did need help!

Pete

> Apple wrote:

>

> > Here's the rub...

> > I've been angry since the day I walked into AA. How can one NOT be angry

upon

> > realizing the abusive and damaging nature of the " program " . However anytime

I

> > said anything contrary or angry, I was automatically dismissed by the other

> > members, since anger and rebellion are bad! When I share how AA does a

> > disservice to survivors of abuse, OF COURSE my share is backed by emotion,

> > because it's such an emotional issue to me that people SUFFER NEEDLESSLY!

The

> > result of my " share " is that people draw away from me because of the

emotion,

> > and they ignore the content.

> >

> > Now the abusers who disguise themselves as Big Book thumpers, can say

> > something sinister, and as long as it's delivered in a calm and collected

> > voice, their audience listens intently... " I used to beat my three children

> > senselessly and lie to everyone. But thanks to this God-given program which

I

> > joined a month ago, I've changed completely " .

> >

> > It's sick! Me and other caring folks are seen as whackos who don't " get

it " ,

> > and the whackos are seen as the heros.

> >

> > One of my essays on the site will be called " The Steps - God's magic eraser

or

> > Only a Mildly Effective Ritual " . These criminals and con-artists pretend

that

> > the steps have turned them from criminal to " good-guy " overnight. Do you

> > REALLY BELIEVE that a con-artist of 25 years changes completely after doing

a

> > thorough 4th step?

> >

> > I would venture to guess that there's something sinister about the Big Book

> > Thumpers.... Probably because there's something sinister about the Big Book.

> > Many times, it's these " thumpers " who pretend to be reformed, but continue

to

> > cheat on their wives, or engage in some other scum-bag behavior, but they

can

> > easily brush it off with " It's a defect I'm still working on " . ***As long

as

> > the delivery is calm and free of strong emotion, anything flies***.

> >

> > This is why I think the Internet is the medium for me. Many people just

> > ignore what I say in the meetings because I have trouble hiding my true

> > disdain for this program which has hurt me, and so many of my friends!

> > -Apple

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> Apple, I have agreed with just about all you've written since you joined

12sf (except for the endorsement of " The Courage to Heal " ; I think that book and

the subculture it spawned are as whacked-out and damaging as AA, but that's

fruit for another discussion) and I thank you for your energy and eloquence.

Just to add my 2 cents though -- while AA as a cult is repulsive in all the ways

you describe, it is still in and of itself a voluntary fellowship, meaning AA

itself does nothing to stop people from leaving (head trips and dire predictions

notwithstanding) once they get tired of it and/or realize it's B.S. Helping

people realize it's B.S. and that they can be happy, healthy, and sober without

it is of course a worthy pursuit. But much more repulsive than the step-culture

is the coercion into AA/NA of unwilling people, people who already know it's

B.S., people who have _already solved their substance abuse problems_, by courts

and EAP's who demand that you prove you're " working on your recovery " (the

> 12-step way) or lose your job, custody of your kids, etc. I for one was was

threatened with being fired if I didn't attend at least 5 AA meetings a week,

PLUS talk about what I was " learning " about how to handle my " addiction " ,

despite dozens of random tests administered since my original indiscretion

showing I wasn't using anything (and therefore not addicted to anything) and no

job performance problems. When I told the EAP that I couldn't relate to AA

philosophy, and that I was confident in my ability to be " drug-and-alcohol-free "

on duty as required and was willing to be tested daily to prove it, I was told

I'd better " open my mind " to what they were teaching me in " treatment " if I

wanted to be allowed back to work. After I filed suit (on religious coercion

grounds) I was " allowed " to go to SMART Recovery instead of AA (while continuing

with the asinine and amateurish outpatient " addiction treatment " ) but it was

still the same mindfuck: I was not allowed to take responsibility for correcting

my own be

> havior, but was told I MUST have the help of a " group. " I envy people who can

say " The hell with this! " and walk away. Those of us who are forced by others

to " do recovery " while choking on it face an additional form of oppression.

>

> ~Railroad Rita

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

HI TIna

nice to see you here.

very wise words; docs not onnly undermedicate depression by not giving meds

when theyt should, they often dont use high enough doses either; the

recommended doses by the company for some ppl are too low.

One thing - the friend who celebrates time " out of sobrierty " - I take it

that is actually moderate, rather than problematic drinking?

Of course that is the joke, that AA has stolen the word sobrierty to mean

abstinent when it actually means " not drunk " .

P.

> AppleDTP@... wrote:

> >

> > Friend does take meds, they're not working anymore though.... Sponsor is not

> > prohibiting them. I have another friend who did a 45 pg. fourth step and

felt

> > suicidal for weeks. She came into AA after her 25 year old marriage broke

up.

> > Husband found younger gal on Internet. Sponsor tells this friend to do

> > thorough fearless inventory, writing down every resentment. Then sponsor

> > shows her her part in them... How does that provide relief for someone in

> > excruciating emotional pain?

> > -Apple

>

>

>

>

> Hi,

>

> Coming out of lurker mode. There is such a thing as too much medicine--

> and I don't mean drugs, I mean institutionalization. The more one is

> hospitalized, the lower the self-esteem-- nurses act as if repeat

> patients are guilty of the " sin " of unhappiness. I have a friend who

> measures his " anniversaries " not by sobriety, but by how many years he's

> managed to stay out of sobriety.

>

> Depression is very often undermedicated-- even by psychiatrists. The

> trick is to keep trying until you find one smart enough to realize it

> isn't your fault that you're depressed. A fourth step during a

> depression-- especially when the fault seems to have been the

> husband's-- sounds not only unhelpful, but sadistic. Another case of

> blaming the patient.

>

>

> BTW-- sponsor has no right to allow or prohibit *any* meds, or alcohol.

>

>

>

> Tina B.

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Fresh flowers are the perfect way to say " I love you " .

> Shipped direct from the grower, Proflowers.com has

> arrangements from $29.95 plus S & H.

> Click here: http://offers.egroups.net/click/216/0

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Tina, folks

Well I have to out myself and admit that I went to a meeting a couple of

weeks ago - for a similar reason.

I dont know of any secular support-group that would take an overeater that

has the number of meetings of OA. London's a big, lonely place; I find it

hard to make friends and I get terribly lonely. The only lover I have had

in 15 years I met thru OA.

One thing I'm becoming more in touch with is how saturated in XA I still

am. I think you are still a practising Catholic, and I guess for many ppl

they Church is a positive thing providing a source of community and love -

but the religious abuse has put me off it for good - but set me up to be a

sucker for a cult like XA.

Time and again I walk into situations I should run away from.

Am I strong enough to go to OA and not get sucked back in to the garbage?

I hope so. there is evidence religious faith can be a postive force; I

have even had the odd experience a bit like 's Hot Flash.

The awful thing abt XA is it's so authoritarian. It happens to be

Protestant as opposed to Catholic authoritarian but authoritarian

nevertheless.

The friend who introduced me to OA, who had also been AA, still goes

occassionally but also goes to a militant, in-yer-face Fat WOmen's Group

where they wear tee shirts with " Fat!So? " on them. From the thesis and

counterthesis a new synthesis emerges that the Dialectical Materialists

would be proud of.

I'm thinking of doing that - but my counterthesis is this group.

P.

> Pete Watts wrote:

> >

> > HI TIna

> >

> > nice to see you here.

> >

> > very wise words; docs not onnly undermedicate depression by not giving meds

> > when theyt should, they often dont use high enough doses either; the

> > recommended doses by the company for some ppl are too low.

> >

> > One thing - the friend who celebrates time " out of sobrierty " - I take it

> > that is actually moderate, rather than problematic drinking?

>

>

> Hi Pete,

>

>

> Good to be here. I misworded my statement-- my friend measures his

> " healthy " or, I guess, " good " time by counting the years he's managed

> to stay out of mental hospitals. And although he goes to very, very few

> meetings-- almost none-- he has not had a drink or a drug for almost 5

> years. He and I agree that there are some things worse than drinking,

> even problematic drinking-- and suicidal depression is one of them!

>

>

> For the sake of honesty, I should tell the list that I do go to

> meetings-- more for mental health than anything else. Plus, I like to

> make them mad by the things I say. I am a self-proclaimed AA heretic.

> What enables me to go with any kind of conscience is my religious

> sensibilities, which run deep. I don't recommend AA to agnostics or

> atheists for that reason.

>

>

> I am getting a lot out of this list. I have been asked repeatedly by my

> doctor and my thrapist to become one myself, and the short, dirty way is

> to be a CADC counselor. I can't wait to infiltrate the ranks... I

> don't hate AA, (I did for a while) but I have not read any posts here I

> couldn't agree with.

>

>

> Tina B.

>

> \

>

>

>

>

>

> >

> > Of course that is the joke, that AA has stolen the word sobrierty to mean

> > abstinent when it actually means " not drunk " .

> >

> > P.

> >

> >

> >

> > > AppleDTP@... wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Friend does take meds, they're not working anymore though.... Sponsor is

not

> > > > prohibiting them. I have another friend who did a 45 pg. fourth step

and felt

> > > > suicidal for weeks. She came into AA after her 25 year old marriage

broke up.

> > > > Husband found younger gal on Internet. Sponsor tells this friend to do

> > > > thorough fearless inventory, writing down every resentment. Then

sponsor

> > > > shows her her part in them... How does that provide relief for someone

in

> > > > excruciating emotional pain?

> > > > -Apple

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Hi,

> > >

> > > Coming out of lurker mode. There is such a thing as too much medicine--

> > > and I don't mean drugs, I mean institutionalization. The more one is

> > > hospitalized, the lower the self-esteem-- nurses act as if repeat

> > > patients are guilty of the " sin " of unhappiness. I have a friend who

> > > measures his " anniversaries " not by sobriety, but by how many years he's

> > > managed to stay out of sobriety.

> > >

> >

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> One Day Science Will Create A Natural Solution For Hairloss

> That day is today. HairGenesis. The world’s first naturally

> derived and proven treatment for Male Pattern Hairloss.

> Click Here: http://offers./click/217/0

>

>

[Guest guest]

Pete Watts wrote:

>

> HI TIna

>

> nice to see you here.

>

> very wise words; docs not onnly undermedicate depression by not giving meds

> when theyt should, they often dont use high enough doses either; the

> recommended doses by the company for some ppl are too low.

>

> One thing - the friend who celebrates time " out of sobrierty " - I take it

> that is actually moderate, rather than problematic drinking?

Hi Pete,

Good to be here. I misworded my statement-- my friend measures his

" healthy " or, I guess, " good " time by counting the years he's managed

to stay out of mental hospitals. And although he goes to very, very few

meetings-- almost none-- he has not had a drink or a drug for almost 5

years. He and I agree that there are some things worse than drinking,

even problematic drinking-- and suicidal depression is one of them!

For the sake of honesty, I should tell the list that I do go to

meetings-- more for mental health than anything else. Plus, I like to

make them mad by the things I say. I am a self-proclaimed AA heretic.

What enables me to go with any kind of conscience is my religious

sensibilities, which run deep. I don't recommend AA to agnostics or

atheists for that reason.

I am getting a lot out of this list. I have been asked repeatedly by my

doctor and my thrapist to become one myself, and the short, dirty way is

to be a CADC counselor. I can't wait to infiltrate the ranks... I

don't hate AA, (I did for a while) but I have not read any posts here I

couldn't agree with.

Tina B.

\

>

> Of course that is the joke, that AA has stolen the word sobrierty to mean

> abstinent when it actually means " not drunk " .

>

> P.

>

>

>

> > AppleDTP@... wrote:

> > >

> > > Friend does take meds, they're not working anymore though.... Sponsor is

not

> > > prohibiting them. I have another friend who did a 45 pg. fourth step and

felt

> > > suicidal for weeks. She came into AA after her 25 year old marriage broke

up.

> > > Husband found younger gal on Internet. Sponsor tells this friend to do

> > > thorough fearless inventory, writing down every resentment. Then sponsor

> > > shows her her part in them... How does that provide relief for someone in

> > > excruciating emotional pain?

> > > -Apple

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Hi,

> >

> > Coming out of lurker mode. There is such a thing as too much medicine--

> > and I don't mean drugs, I mean institutionalization. The more one is

> > hospitalized, the lower the self-esteem-- nurses act as if repeat

> > patients are guilty of the " sin " of unhappiness. I have a friend who

> > measures his " anniversaries " not by sobriety, but by how many years he's

> > managed to stay out of sobriety.

> >

>

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

If you agree with most of the posts you read here, how do you cope with AA? How

does it benefit your mental health?

---

Kayleigh

Zz

zZ

|\ z _,,,---,,_

/,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_

|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'

'---''(_/--' `-'\_)

>Pete Watts wrote:

>>

>> HI TIna

>>

>> nice to see you here.

>>

>> very wise words; docs not onnly undermedicate depression by not giving meds

>> when theyt should, they often dont use high enough doses either; the

>> recommended doses by the company for some ppl are too low.

>>

>> One thing - the friend who celebrates time " out of sobrierty " - I take it

>> that is actually moderate, rather than problematic drinking?

>

>

>Hi Pete,

>

>

>Good to be here. I misworded my statement-- my friend measures his

> " healthy " or, I guess, " good " time by counting the years he's managed

>to stay out of mental hospitals. And although he goes to very, very few

>meetings-- almost none-- he has not had a drink or a drug for almost 5

>years. He and I agree that there are some things worse than drinking,

>even problematic drinking-- and suicidal depression is one of them!

>

>

>For the sake of honesty, I should tell the list that I do go to

>meetings-- more for mental health than anything else. Plus, I like to

>make them mad by the things I say. I am a self-proclaimed AA heretic.

>What enables me to go with any kind of conscience is my religious

>sensibilities, which run deep. I don't recommend AA to agnostics or

>atheists for that reason.

>

>

>I am getting a lot out of this list. I have been asked repeatedly by my

>doctor and my thrapist to become one myself, and the short, dirty way is

>to be a CADC counselor. I can't wait to infiltrate the ranks... I

>don't hate AA, (I did for a while) but I have not read any posts here I

>couldn't agree with.

>

>

>Tina B.

>

>\

>

>

>

>

>

>>

>> Of course that is the joke, that AA has stolen the word sobrierty to mean

>> abstinent when it actually means " not drunk " .

>>

>> P.

>>

>>

>>

>> > AppleDTP@... wrote:

>> > >

>> > > Friend does take meds, they're not working anymore though.... Sponsor is

not

>> > > prohibiting them. I have another friend who did a 45 pg. fourth step and

felt

>> > > suicidal for weeks. She came into AA after her 25 year old marriage

broke up.

>> > > Husband found younger gal on Internet. Sponsor tells this friend to do

>> > > thorough fearless inventory, writing down every resentment. Then sponsor

>> > > shows her her part in them... How does that provide relief for someone

in

>> > > excruciating emotional pain?

>> > > -Apple

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> > Hi,

>> >

>> > Coming out of lurker mode. There is such a thing as too much medicine--

>> > and I don't mean drugs, I mean institutionalization. The more one is

>> > hospitalized, the lower the self-esteem-- nurses act as if repeat

>> > patients are guilty of the " sin " of unhappiness. I have a friend who

>> > measures his " anniversaries " not by sobriety, but by how many years he's

>> > managed to stay out of sobriety.

>> >

>>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>One Day Science Will Create A Natural Solution For Hairloss

>That day is today. HairGenesis. The world’s first naturally

>derived and proven treatment for Male Pattern Hairloss.

>Click Here: http://offers./click/217/0

>

>

[Guest guest]

Kayleigh S wrote:

>

> If you agree with most of the posts you read here, how do you cope with AA?

How does it benefit your mental health?

>

> ---

> Kayleigh

>

>

Hi,

I meant to say that I can't *disagree* with the posts I've read-- not

the same thing as espousing everyone's opinions. I have found little

evidendence to contradict the claims of people in this group.

My mental health? I meant the term very loosely. I got sent to AA for

all the wrong reasons-- perhaps, all the usual reasons; the doctors

couldn't figure out how to treat me, so they labelled me. And off I

went. I found *one* good group and they became my friends. Relatives

don't often understand things like depression, and I was lucky enough to

find a few depressives in the group near my home.

I like to go into a warm room where everyone knows who I am, and

doesn't judge me-- or, if they do, I feel perfectly free to ignore

them.

But of course, I'm not an alcoholic.

Tina

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

You might like the Mood Disorders Clinic which is available thourhgout BC

and is throught the UBC Mood Disorders Clinic and Dr. Long . There

you get the medical info, group support and newsletter. Very cool. No

mumblo jumbo blame. Look up Dr. Long on the web as he has a site

too. Take Care, CArol

0 At 03:39 PM 2/9/99 -0500, you wrote:

>Kayleigh S wrote:

>>

>> If you agree with most of the posts you read here, how do you cope with

AA? How does it benefit your mental health?

>>

>> ---

>> Kayleigh

>>

>>

>

>

>Hi,

>

>

>I meant to say that I can't *disagree* with the posts I've read-- not

>the same thing as espousing everyone's opinions. I have found little

>evidendence to contradict the claims of people in this group.

>

>My mental health? I meant the term very loosely. I got sent to AA for

>all the wrong reasons-- perhaps, all the usual reasons; the doctors

>couldn't figure out how to treat me, so they labelled me. And off I

>went. I found *one* good group and they became my friends. Relatives

>don't often understand things like depression, and I was lucky enough to

>find a few depressives in the group near my home.

>

>I like to go into a warm room where everyone knows who I am, and

>doesn't judge me-- or, if they do, I feel perfectly free to ignore

>them.

>

>But of course, I'm not an alcoholic.

>

>

>Tina

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>One day scientists will discover a natural

>solution for hair loss. That day is here ....

>Hair Genesis http://offers./click/224/0

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Ben

you have just highlighted the appalling ethnocentricity of AA. when they

say " not a religion " they think they can say that just because it's not

like a christian religion; they know nothing abt what a religion actually

is.

I understand sociologists define it as something like this:

" A philosophy that posits the existence of a non-material entity or force,

or a separate plane of existence. "

In other words, " anything can be your Higher Power " is not relevant,

because, in a sense *Anything that IS a Higher Power in the AA sense IS a

God* in that is a non-material entity or force.

Kurtz's " Not God " makes a similar ethnocentric error by claiming AA is not

a religion because it posits no after life; can you confirm my Jewish

roomie's suggestion Rita, that JUDAISM DOESNT EITHER?

These are the over-encultured prats we are dealing with.

I have said before that a local Xtian building sports the slogan

" Christianity - NOT a religion. " Basically, anyone who wants to have their

thing called a religion is after a tax break.

Pete

On Thu, 18 Feb 1999 00:58:44 -0500 Ben Bradley

wrote:

> At 01:53 PM 2/17/99 -0500, MRS JANICE M YOUNG wrote:

> >-- [ From: Janice Young * EMC.Ver #2.5.3 ] --

> >

> >Pete,

> >

> >This is one of the things that gradually made me more and more confused

> >about AA. I would hear that we could bring our problems to the table,

> >then if you do you can sit and see them all squirm. Then they throw a

> >slogan at you and go into their drunkalog. Members come at you with an

> >aura of intimacy that one can fall into easily when new and they want to

> >know all about your history and then it gets thrown in your face,

> >through the steps and gossip.

>

> When I think of what I and others have said, and then what I've not known

> about still others, it's very odd. When I was new I was (mis)led into

> believing that AA was about self-disclosure, but it seemed whenever I

> 'shared' about myself I was shot down. At three months I heard a woman say

> she didn't talk about problems in meetings, she took problems to her sponsor,

> and she shared solutions in meetings.

> It took a couple of years before I realized, fully consciously (and by

> this time cynically), that this was basically true. When I told about any

> problem I had I got " well, Ben, when I felt like that I started taking

> the steps, and I'm glad I did... " , but when I said how grateful I was for

> AA and the steps, and mom and apple pie (not actually mom and apple pie,

> but you get the idea), and I never got much feedback for that - they were

> busy 'helping' new victims. What little I got was " I liked what you shared " ,

> even if I didn't say a damn thing that was self-disclosing (unless you

> consider the generic " how much I love AA " to be self-disclosing).

>

> >They disect your marriage, family

> >relations, business etc

>

> On the other hand, and as I was alluding to above, there were people I

> sat in weekly meetings with for years, that I didn't know they had

> previous marriages and children from them, etc, until I learned such things

> from third parties.

>

> >and I got to a point where I believed that that

> >stuff was hands off and they didn't like it too much. Another problem I

> >had with my husband was all the whining he'd do at meetings about us.

> >Course he whines to anyone who will listen. So to make sense of all

> >this, I said to myself, OK AA is for drinking problems they say, other

> >problems - go to other sources of help (my view, it really isn't AA's),

> >I don't drink anymore, ergo, what the heck do I need to go to X number

> >of meetings a week anymore for? That was a comfortable way to live for

> >me but to this day I'm told that I must continue to go to meetings (if

> >I'm troubled, a meeting every day!!! till when? I wonder) and that

> >nothing else in the world (my churchgoing included) can rise above AA

> >meeting attendance. To me this smacked of restricting my freedom of

> >religion among other things.

> >

> >Jan

>

> Another interesting experience - [and there's much talk of religion in

> AA - quite odd, since AA " has nothing to do with religion " ). One well-spoken

> AA member (he has an AA speaker tape business, and has probably been the

> person putting on the Atlanta AA Men's Workshop for the last 15 or 20 years

> or so) was discussion leader in a meeting, and he was talking about AA

> being 'spiritual, not religious', yet how it doesn't conflict with any

> religion, in fact [here's another saying I heard often in AA] " All religions

> say the same thing. " To further illustrate this, he went on to say " Just as

> Christians turn their wills and lives over to Jesus Christ, Zen Bhuddists

> turn their wills and lives over to Bhuuda, and Muslims turn their wills and

> lives over to Mohammed. "

> I knew virtually nothing about Muslim, but I had a vague idea about Zen,

> and this 'turning one's will and life over to Bhuuda' didn't quite jibe

> with what little I thought I knew. This got me reading a little bit about

> other religions, and sure enough, many Eastern 'belief systems' don't really

> have a god or gods, and tend to promote self-direction. I still don't know

> a lot about different religions, but I'm under the impression that these

> 'Eastern though systems' are called religions partly because they are the

> closest equivalent things in Eastern society to the Western Christian and

> Jewish traditions. The next illogical step is to assume that since an

> Eastern 'religion' is called religion, it must have a god to whom one

> submits one's will.

> With my spotty knowledge of religion, much of the last paragraph may be

> wrong, but I doubt I'm nearly as wrong as the guy I quote above.

>

>

> -----

> http://www.mindspring.com/~benbradley/seasons_greetings.html

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Searching for the man of your dreams?

> The job of your dreams? Stop dreaming

> and go to HomeArts.com for horoscopes,

> LoveScopes or CareerScopes. http://offers./click/212/1

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

<<Anger is forcing me to evaluate how I want to live. I understand and

accept that when I go out in the 'big bad' world I'll face situations

and people that aren't pleasant, but I won't voluntarily stay in a home

where I live with my little mental fists up 24 hours a day.

Jan >>

My heart goes out to you! I wish you courage & strength.

Apple

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

-- [ From: Janice Young * EMC.Ver #2.5.3 ] --

,

Wow - what a message! I'm catching up on mail also and just posted

about anger and my husband, an active AA'er. He basically 13th stepped

me. I was sober about 4-5 months when we started dating. Then we split

up for about 6 months, during which I did not date anyone else, wanting

to get through this pain without a drink or another man. His excuse for

breaking up was his urges to date other women, that he felt he was also

sexually addicted, blah blah blah. When we resumed dating, and he went

on and on about how he loved me and I had some sense and his sponsor had

told him that if he still felt something for me after six months for us

to try to get back together if I still wanted him. And not 2 months

after we got married we disagreed on purchasing some property (he wanted

to I didn't, because I wanted the dust to settle for myself - we had

just gotten married, bought a house, I had gotten laid off and was just

getting into doing the office work for his business plus becoming a new

mom to his son) when I told him I didn't think it was the right idea he

reamed me a new one. We were discussing this over the phone and I had

to move it from my ear because of his extremely loud tones and I'll

never forget his words because I was shaking later. 'Why the f*** can't

you see things my way, this is a G-D damn mother f***in' good

opportunity. You never want to do a G-d damn thing.' As I tried to

calmly explain my reasoning (I hadn't learned yet how to converse with a

maniac), he interrupted me and continued the blast. I was shaking and

crying. Was this brand new? Looking back, I had seen some signs, but

they had been toward other people and situations, and for the longest

time I tried to give him the benefit of the doubt - stresses, etc.

Anyways, the rest of the story is in my other post and I won't repeat it

now. Some friends in AA said he was a sicko and I have to look at my

own outlook back then that our relationship was unique. But have I ever

deserved a verbal blasting such as above. I don't think so. And now, I

often feel so alone because he is accepted so lovingly at AA now,and I'm

not because I won't do a 4th step to find out what antisocial behavior I

exhibited to warrant verbal abuse such as I live with. Yes, I was

gullible, hard headed, determined, made excuses for him. And yes, and

I'll probably get run out on a rail, tarred and feathered from feminist

groups for saying this, but I look back on my free and easy sexuality

for a number of years and realize that that and other women like me has

contributed to some of the severe problems we face with the opposite sex

.. Do I deserve verbal and physical abuse because of that? No. But, do

I have the right to cry and complain because 'he won't commit'? I'm

afraid I'm on the guys side here. OK I'm ramblin' Back to AA's

philosophy to all of this. As a woman, I drank to cover up the bad self

-image I had of myself for doing things that ran contrary to my

upbringing. Not because I had some disease. And as for the

organization, I became frustrated hearing that anything goes as long as

you don't drink. 'I smacked my wife today and I guess that isn't really

a nice thing to do, but I didn't have a drink today, so nothing else

matters.' is typical of the quotes I have heard. I bet it matters to

the recipient of the disgusting behavior. And so it goes with my

husband, he's spoken at meetings about screaming and yelling at me and

his son, then says the right AA words and gets hugs and kudos after.

They ignore me. What phony love!

Jan

-------- REPLY, Original message follows --------

Date: Friday, 05-Feb-99 01:19 AM

From: Mabee \ Internet: (babystrange@...

)

To: 12-step-freeegroups \ Internet: (12-step-freeegroups)

Attachment: 00000001.unk Code: 019D3BI \ Created: Unknown [11 Kb]

Subject: Re: Why SO MANY get worse or die - especially of

interest

....

Re: Why SO MANY get worse or die - especially of

interest ...

Hello, All---

I've been too busy this past week to respond to Apple and Kristy and

Nolita as I would like,

so I may end up making up for lost time with this post...<smile>

I was 13th-stepped twice in my first year in the Program. The first

time was with an ex-boyfriend who was living with another woman at the

time; he 12th-Stepped me into AA, and I guess he figured " why stop

there? " . He knew I was still in love with him, and used it to his own

advantage. In fact, he . . .

Cheers---

---

------------------------------------------------------------------------

ZXZZZ

[Guest guest]

-- [ From: Janice Young * EMC.Ver #2.5.3 ] --

Expanded recipient data:

To: Appledtp \ America On-Line: (appledtp)

Apple,

Continuing on my saga of marriage to AA --- Your comment about the

women's crisis center reminded me of the time I left my husband for the

women's shelter. Our checking account was off balance and we bounced

some checks which frustrated him and me. Prior to this, he and his dad

(the convicted felon) had gone to get Pop's pistol out of the sheriff's

department - Pop was giving the pistol to Greg (at least that's the

story they told the sheriff. Anyhow, Greg was so frustrated at the

checking account he said that if we (me) bounce any more checks he was

going to shoot me and then himself. Remembering the pistol he had just

been given, I took off. I stayed away about 2 days. I don't know how

many times I've heard from him that he felt like committing suicide

and/or getting drunk over these years. This is working the program???

By the way, if he isn't threatening suicide or getting drunk or

divorcing me, all he needs he says is AA meetings and more exercise. Am

I missing something? And I'm the one who is self-centered, selfish and

sick, he says.

Jan

-------------------------------

BTW. I ended up in counselling at the local women's crisis center, and

learned the characteristics of men I should stay away from... it was

very enlightening.

Cheers,

Apple

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Fresh flowers are the perfect way to say " I love you " .

Shipped direct from the grower, Proflowers.com has

arrangements from $29.95 plus S & H.

Click here: http://offers./click/216/0

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/16/99 12:11:00 PM Central Standard Time,

JACW18A@... writes:

<< But it's kicking a dead horse now.

I've wrestled with a separation for weeks now inside and I've decided to

go for it. He even said why don't we get divorced last Monday, but then

Friday said he didn't really want to. I said I was still going after I

take care of a few things. For the time being, I can go back to my home

in Pittsburgh, let my dad spend maybe his last days (he's 80) at home

and get myself some in depth therapy. I don't know how else to

influence him. I'm so tired of living in chaos. >>

Good for you. Get the hell out of there. Be careful while you do; and you

might tell the police about Pop.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

At 01:53 PM 2/17/99 -0500, MRS JANICE M YOUNG wrote:

>-- [ From: Janice Young * EMC.Ver #2.5.3 ] --

>

>Pete,

>

>This is one of the things that gradually made me more and more confused

>about AA. I would hear that we could bring our problems to the table,

>then if you do you can sit and see them all squirm. Then they throw a

>slogan at you and go into their drunkalog. Members come at you with an

>aura of intimacy that one can fall into easily when new and they want to

>know all about your history and then it gets thrown in your face,

>through the steps and gossip.

When I think of what I and others have said, and then what I've not known

about still others, it's very odd. When I was new I was (mis)led into

believing that AA was about self-disclosure, but it seemed whenever I

'shared' about myself I was shot down. At three months I heard a woman say

she didn't talk about problems in meetings, she took problems to her sponsor,

and she shared solutions in meetings.

It took a couple of years before I realized, fully consciously (and by

this time cynically), that this was basically true. When I told about any

problem I had I got " well, Ben, when I felt like that I started taking

the steps, and I'm glad I did... " , but when I said how grateful I was for

AA and the steps, and mom and apple pie (not actually mom and apple pie,

but you get the idea), and I never got much feedback for that - they were

busy 'helping' new victims. What little I got was " I liked what you shared " ,

even if I didn't say a damn thing that was self-disclosing (unless you

consider the generic " how much I love AA " to be self-disclosing).

>They disect your marriage, family

>relations, business etc

On the other hand, and as I was alluding to above, there were people I

sat in weekly meetings with for years, that I didn't know they had

previous marriages and children from them, etc, until I learned such things

from third parties.

>and I got to a point where I believed that that

>stuff was hands off and they didn't like it too much. Another problem I

>had with my husband was all the whining he'd do at meetings about us.

>Course he whines to anyone who will listen. So to make sense of all

>this, I said to myself, OK AA is for drinking problems they say, other

>problems - go to other sources of help (my view, it really isn't AA's),

>I don't drink anymore, ergo, what the heck do I need to go to X number

>of meetings a week anymore for? That was a comfortable way to live for

>me but to this day I'm told that I must continue to go to meetings (if

>I'm troubled, a meeting every day!!! till when? I wonder) and that

>nothing else in the world (my churchgoing included) can rise above AA

>meeting attendance. To me this smacked of restricting my freedom of

>religion among other things.

>

>Jan

Another interesting experience - [and there's much talk of religion in

AA - quite odd, since AA " has nothing to do with religion " ). One well-spoken

AA member (he has an AA speaker tape business, and has probably been the

person putting on the Atlanta AA Men's Workshop for the last 15 or 20 years

or so) was discussion leader in a meeting, and he was talking about AA

being 'spiritual, not religious', yet how it doesn't conflict with any

religion, in fact [here's another saying I heard often in AA] " All religions

say the same thing. " To further illustrate this, he went on to say " Just as

Christians turn their wills and lives over to Jesus Christ, Zen Bhuddists

turn their wills and lives over to Bhuuda, and Muslims turn their wills and

lives over to Mohammed. "

I knew virtually nothing about Muslim, but I had a vague idea about Zen,

and this 'turning one's will and life over to Bhuuda' didn't quite jibe

with what little I thought I knew. This got me reading a little bit about

other religions, and sure enough, many Eastern 'belief systems' don't really

have a god or gods, and tend to promote self-direction. I still don't know

a lot about different religions, but I'm under the impression that these

'Eastern though systems' are called religions partly because they are the

closest equivalent things in Eastern society to the Western Christian and

Jewish traditions. The next illogical step is to assume that since an

Eastern 'religion' is called religion, it must have a god to whom one

submits one's will.

With my spotty knowledge of religion, much of the last paragraph may be

wrong, but I doubt I'm nearly as wrong as the guy I quote above.

-----

http://www.mindspring.com/~benbradley/seasons_greetings.html

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

" Well, if we could just get a social movement that would explain to

husbands that their wives were to blame for their debts, worries, fears and

hurts, and if we could get another movement to explain to women that their

husbands were the root cause of the evils that affflict families and

society, then maybe we could divide and conquor. Then, nobody would look

at why debt is piling up on families, why it is so much harder to get by

now than it use to be, why hope is being extinguished for so many. Yes,

that's it! Lets get the little people to fight amongst themselves, blame

each other! Drunks, " dry drunks, " hell, what do we care what the concept

is. As long as it is INSIDE THEM. That way they will never look our way.

Divide and conquor! That's the ticket. " --- Signed, your local corporate

CEO, annual salary - $1, 300, 000 a year and up. [Maybe people ought to

stop blaming one another, and ought to try to figure out who runs the show,

and who is making life in America increasingly miserable for everybody]

----------

>

> To: 12-step-freeegroups

> Subject: Re: Why SO MANY get worse or die - especially of

interest ...

> Date: Friday, February 19, 1999 1:50 AM

>

> Jan, this all sounds eerily familiar. I live with this too . . . my

> husband not always this kind of jerk, but at times--whoo boy! I think

> they have so much anger, and low self-esteem . . . in their minds we are

> " safe " to sound off on (how untrue.) Hence the expression " the dry

> drunk " . The liquor isn't there, but the behavior is the same.

> Joy

>

>

>

> <This reminds me of my situation now. Despite all his claims of AA

> working in his life and his many meetings, my husband verbally abuses

> me. Examples are losing his temper and calling me a bitch, threatening

> to divorce me, belittling me, using f***in' this and f***in' that in his

> day to day conversation with me (which, I've noticed, he can control at

> will with others), blaming me for his weight problem and our financial

> debt and why he started smoking again and why he can't quit. In

> essence, blatantly disrespectful. >

>

>

>

> ______________________________________________________

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Recipes, relationships. Horoscopes, health.

> Fashion, fitness. If it's about women, it's at HomeArts.com.

> http://offers./click/212/0

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

The behavior isn't " dry drunk " but that some people just have not developed

the social skills to deal with their own feelings of insecurity and

manifest it in the control of others. It would be worse with the

intoxicants, louder, more brash but the trait is that person. In early

sobriety it is normal to be irritable as if something is missing. It

is-booze! The next step after abstinence is to do anger management at home,

in a group or with a counsellor who is a good person. At home there is the

Anger Workbook which is available in libraries and for anyone with

depression, anxiety, anger, fear the cognitive therapy book by Dr.

Burns, " Feeling Good " . Of course, if he doesn't want to help himself then

get off the road because you're standing in the way of a streamroller. Take

care, Carol

At 01:50 AM 2/19/99 CST, you wrote:

>Jan, this all sounds eerily familiar. I live with this too . . . my

>husband not always this kind of jerk, but at times--whoo boy! I think

>they have so much anger, and low self-esteem . . . in their minds we are

> " safe " to sound off on (how untrue.) Hence the expression " the dry

>drunk " . The liquor isn't there, but the behavior is the same.

>Joy

>

>

>

><This reminds me of my situation now. Despite all his claims of AA

>working in his life and his many meetings, my husband verbally abuses

>me. Examples are losing his temper and calling me a bitch, threatening

>to divorce me, belittling me, using f***in' this and f***in' that in his

>day to day conversation with me (which, I've noticed, he can control at

>will with others), blaming me for his weight problem and our financial

>debt and why he started smoking again and why he can't quit. In

>essence, blatantly disrespectful. >

>

>

>

>______________________________________________________

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Recipes, relationships. Horoscopes, health.

>Fashion, fitness. If it's about women, it's at HomeArts.com.

>http://offers./click/212/0

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

---

>>The behavior isn't " dry drunk " ... <snip>

> The next step after abstinence is to do >anger management ... and for anyone

with

>>depression, anxiety, anger, fear the >cognitive therapy book by Dr.

>>Burns, " Feeling Good " . Of course, if he >doesn't want to help himself then

>>get off the road because you're standing in >the way of a streamroller. Take

>>care, Carol

>

>----------------------------------

Great book, and great advice.

~Rita

-----== Sent via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==-----

http://www.dejanews.com/ Easy access to 50,000+ discussion forums

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Excellent! We often forget that truth. Thanks, Keep up the fiesty reality

checks. Carol

At 10:28 AM 2/19/99 -0600, you wrote:

> " Well, if we could just get a social movement that would explain to

>husbands that their wives were to blame for their debts, worries, fears and

>hurts, and if we could get another movement to explain to women that their

>husbands were the root cause of the evils that affflict families and

>society, then maybe we could divide and conquor. Then, nobody would look

>at why debt is piling up on families, why it is so much harder to get by

>now than it use to be, why hope is being extinguished for so many. Yes,

>that's it! Lets get the little people to fight amongst themselves, blame

>each other! Drunks, " dry drunks, " hell, what do we care what the concept

>is. As long as it is INSIDE THEM. That way they will never look our way.

>Divide and conquor! That's the ticket. " --- Signed, your local corporate

>CEO, annual salary - $1, 300, 000 a year and up. [Maybe people ought to

>stop blaming one another, and ought to try to figure out who runs the show,

>and who is making life in America increasingly miserable for everybody]

>

>----------

>>

>> To: 12-step-freeegroups

>> Subject: Re: Why SO MANY get worse or die - especially of

>interest ...

>> Date: Friday, February 19, 1999 1:50 AM

>>

>> Jan, this all sounds eerily familiar. I live with this too . . . my

>> husband not always this kind of jerk, but at times--whoo boy! I think

>> they have so much anger, and low self-esteem . . . in their minds we are

>> " safe " to sound off on (how untrue.) Hence the expression " the dry

>> drunk " . The liquor isn't there, but the behavior is the same.

>> Joy

>>

>>

>>

>> <This reminds me of my situation now. Despite all his claims of AA

>> working in his life and his many meetings, my husband verbally abuses

>> me. Examples are losing his temper and calling me a bitch, threatening

>> to divorce me, belittling me, using f***in' this and f***in' that in his

>> day to day conversation with me (which, I've noticed, he can control at

>> will with others), blaming me for his weight problem and our financial

>> debt and why he started smoking again and why he can't quit. In

>> essence, blatantly disrespectful. >

>>

>>

>>

>> ______________________________________________________

>>

>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>> Recipes, relationships. Horoscopes, health.

>> Fashion, fitness. If it's about women, it's at HomeArts.com.

>> http://offers./click/212/0

>>

>>

>>