Re: Why SO MANY get worse or die - especially of interest ...

February 1, 1999

Hi, everyone!

This is my first day here and my first time to post. Thank you so much for

this post.

I was told about 12-step-free from a friend...it sounded interesting and I

thought I would try it and see what it was like. But, at the same time I was

afraid to just sign off my other loops. In fact, I just received my copy of

the Big Book in the mail, as I was just about to seriously start doing the

steps with a sponsor.

This post " Why SO MANY get worse or die - especially of interest ... " just hit

me so hard. This was the first time, I have ever heard that it is okay to be

angry. In fact, I have done everything in my power to suppress my anger.

What an eye-opener this was...to hear it is healthy!

I am embarrassed to say that I am the woman you described in your post as the

doormat...everything you wrote, I do. I never question that something,

anything, isn't my fault. I was interested in this " program " because I was

really struggling with " acceptance " ...deep down I have always felt that there

are things you shouldn't just accept. There was a line in a movie I saw that

said " I am a fighter...no one in my family is a fighter and there all on

alcohol or drugs. " This made me start to think...but I didn't know there was

an alternative to 12-Steps.

I was molested when I was 12 years old and all my life I have thought I did

something to deserved it and therefore deserved all the bad things that

happened to me from there on...I guess like it was some sort of cosmic

justice.

Bless you for posting this...I really need to read this often and re-remind

myself of the truths you wrote. I am very interested in anything else you

have to say in relation to this...I want to be strong...I am so, so tired of

just taking it...but at the same time I am so uncomfortable at standing up for

myself...the minute someone challenges my assertiveness I cave in and feel

like I was doing something bad by " asserting " myself.

This post made me see the 12 Steps in a whole new light...I just wish I read

this before I bought the book.

Everything you said was true...I am just so amazed I couldn't see this.

Thank you so much!!!!!!

Kristy

------------------------------------------------------------------------

February 1, 1999

Welcome Kristy!

I'm glad you're with us.

Snowy

>Hi, everyone!

>

>This is my first day here and my first time to post. Thank you so much for

>this post.

>

>I was told about 12-step-free from a friend...it sounded interesting and I

>thought I would try it and see what it was like. But, at the same time I

was

>afraid to just sign off my other loops. In fact, I just received my copy

of

>the Big Book in the mail, as I was just about to seriously start doing the

>steps with a sponsor.

>

>This post " Why SO MANY get worse or die - especially of interest ... " just

hit

>me so hard. This was the first time, I have ever heard that it is okay to

be

>angry. In fact, I have done everything in my power to suppress my anger.

>What an eye-opener this was...to hear it is healthy!

>

>I am embarrassed to say that I am the woman you described in your post as

the

>doormat...everything you wrote, I do. I never question that something,

>anything, isn't my fault. I was interested in this " program " because I was

>really struggling with " acceptance " ...deep down I have always felt that

there

>are things you shouldn't just accept. There was a line in a movie I saw

that

>said " I am a fighter...no one in my family is a fighter and there all on

>alcohol or drugs. " This made me start to think...but I didn't know there

was

>an alternative to 12-Steps.

>

>I was molested when I was 12 years old and all my life I have thought I did

>something to deserved it and therefore deserved all the bad things that

>happened to me from there on...I guess like it was some sort of cosmic

>justice.

>

>Bless you for posting this...I really need to read this often and re-remind

>myself of the truths you wrote. I am very interested in anything else you

>have to say in relation to this...I want to be strong...I am so, so tired

of

>just taking it...but at the same time I am so uncomfortable at standing up

for

>myself...the minute someone challenges my assertiveness I cave in and feel

>like I was doing something bad by " asserting " myself.

>

>This post made me see the 12 Steps in a whole new light...I just wish I

read

>this before I bought the book.

>

>Everything you said was true...I am just so amazed I couldn't see this.

>

>Thank you so much!!!!!!

>

>Kristy

------------------------------------------------------------------------

February 1, 1999

wrote:

Original Article: /list/12-step-free/?start=1935

> Hi, everyone!

Hi Kristy

Welcome to the list.

> Bless you for posting this...I really need to read this often and re-remind

> myself of the truths you wrote. I am very interested in anything else you

> have to say in relation to this...I want to be strong...I am so, so tired of

> just taking it...but at the same time I am so uncomfortable at standing up for

> myself...the minute someone challenges my assertiveness I cave in and feel

> like I was doing something bad by " asserting " myself.

Asserting yourself in forums is good practice. Its been great practice for

me, making it much easier to kick butt in other areas of life where

buttkicking is necessary.

NOw that I'm out of AA, I very rarely come across the kind of folks I need

to assert myself or express my anger with. Ahhhh!

check out this shocking new zine!

http://www.zinezone.com/users/fransway

>

> This post made me see the 12 Steps in a whole new light...I just wish I read

> this before I bought the book.

>

> Everything you said was true...I am just so amazed I couldn't see this.

>

> Thank you so much!!!!!!

>

> Kristy

>

------------------------------------------------------------------------

February 2, 1999

In a message dated 2/2/99 3:50:29 PM Pacific Standard Time, MARDINOYES@...

writes:

> Please give the BB away. .

> .it is poison for your brain and your soul. . .

DO NOT give it away! Throw it in the fireplace, the garbage heap or out in the

barn for the mice to chew.

Henders

------------------------------------------------------------------------

February 2, 1999

I am curious...what is a Buchmanite? I have never heard of that...

Kristy

------------------------------------------------------------------------

February 2, 1999

Thanks, ...I am so glad to be here...

Kristy

------------------------------------------------------------------------

February 2, 1999

Thanks!

I have been reading all the post about the beginnings of AA and the

founders...I don't understand what the 13th Steppers are...but I am just

amazed...I just feel like a complete idiot for trusting that program. I am so

glad I got out before I got to deep into it...

Kristy

------------------------------------------------------------------------

February 2, 1999

It's going in the garbage!!!

Thanks!

Kristy

------------------------------------------------------------------------

February 2, 1999

Kristy - Part of the myths and lies of AA have to do with AA's history.

Most of what you have been told is untrue. What we today call " AA " was

originally a right-wing Christian cult called the Oxford Groups. When

G. (an unscrupulous stock market shark who went broke in the

depression) and H. (a near-bankrupt proctologist) met in Akron

in 1935, they were both members of the Oxford Groups. AA did not really

fully splinter off from the Oxford Groups until late 1939, and many early

AAs kept their affiliation with the Oxford Groups into the early 1930s.

Now, the Oxford Groups was an upper-class, extremely right-wing religious

cult, sort of like the 700 Club today - but even MORE right-wing. The

leader of the Oxford Groups was a German-speaking Protestant minister

(Lutheran, although he was tried for doctrinal deviations) by the name of

Buchman. Buchman's most infamous moment might have been at a press

conference in the Calvary Church annex in New York City in 1936, not long

after the Berlin Olympics, which Buchman had attended. Buchman was asked

by a reporter what he thought of the " new Germany. " He replied that " God

has sent Hitler to Germany to save the country from communism. " Bill

was almost certainly at that press conference, along with a couple

dozen other young New York acolytes. Bill's regular Oxford Group " meeting "

was held in the annex where Buchman gave that interview (the Oxford Groups

devised the AA " meeting " with which you are familiar). Interestingly, while

in Berlin, Buchman had met personally with Himmler, whom he described as " a

great lad. " Himmler, of course, ran Hitler's Gestapo. AA is best

understood as continuation, or a variation, of the Oxford Groups, whose

members were called " Groupers, " or " Buchmanites. " The Oxford Groups were

just one of dozens of right-wing, pseudo-religious, protofascist cults

which flourished in the US (and other countries) during the Great

Depression. The massive expansion of AA, and the whole war on drugs, is

best understood as a reemergence of these pseudoreligous fascist

organizations, whose current upsurge is related to the economic problems

the US has experienced over the last several decades. If you look on the

12-Steps and Politics list, you will find another Oxford Group tidbit I

posted yesterday. If you understand a movement's historical origins, and

its ideology, you understand a lot about what it does and where it is

headed. AA's origin and ideology is tied to the worldwide fascist movement

of the 1930s. The evidence is incontrovertible. Now you should be able to

understand why right-wing drug warriors and big corporations, and of course

the government, love AA so much.

----------

> From: Kristy2B@...

> To: 12-step-freeegroups

> Subject: Re: Why SO MANY get worse or die - especially of

interest ...

> Date: Tuesday, February 02, 1999 9:34 PM

>

> I am curious...what is a Buchmanite? I have never heard of that...

>

> Kristy

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Recipes, relationships. Horoscopes, health.

> Fashion, fitness. If it's about women, it's at HomeArts.com.

> http://offers./click/212/0

>

February 2, 1999

oops. typo. should have read " kept their affilitation into the early

1940s " sorry.

----------

>

> To: 12-step-freeegroups

> Subject: Re: Why SO MANY get worse or die - especially of

interest ...

> Date: Tuesday, February 02, 1999 11:34 PM

>

> Kristy - Part of the myths and lies of AA have to do with AA's history.

> Most of what you have been told is untrue. What we today call " AA " was

> originally a right-wing Christian cult called the Oxford Groups. When

> G. (an unscrupulous stock market shark who went broke in

the

> depression) and H. (a near-bankrupt proctologist) met in

Akron

> in 1935, they were both members of the Oxford Groups. AA did not really

> fully splinter off from the Oxford Groups until late 1939, and many early

> AAs kept their affiliation with the Oxford Groups into the early 1930s.

> Now, the Oxford Groups was an upper-class, extremely right-wing religious

> cult, sort of like the 700 Club today - but even MORE right-wing. The

> leader of the Oxford Groups was a German-speaking Protestant minister

> (Lutheran, although he was tried for doctrinal deviations) by the name of

> Buchman. Buchman's most infamous moment might have been at a press

> conference in the Calvary Church annex in New York City in 1936, not long

> after the Berlin Olympics, which Buchman had attended. Buchman was asked

> by a reporter what he thought of the " new Germany. " He replied that " God

> has sent Hitler to Germany to save the country from communism. " Bill

> was almost certainly at that press conference, along with a couple

> dozen other young New York acolytes. Bill's regular Oxford Group

" meeting "

> was held in the annex where Buchman gave that interview (the Oxford

Groups

> devised the AA " meeting " with which you are familiar). Interestingly,

while

> in Berlin, Buchman had met personally with Himmler, whom he described as

" a

> great lad. " Himmler, of course, ran Hitler's Gestapo. AA is best

> understood as continuation, or a variation, of the Oxford Groups, whose

> members were called " Groupers, " or " Buchmanites. " The Oxford Groups were

> just one of dozens of right-wing, pseudo-religious, protofascist cults

> which flourished in the US (and other countries) during the Great

> Depression. The massive expansion of AA, and the whole war on drugs, is

> best understood as a reemergence of these pseudoreligous fascist

> organizations, whose current upsurge is related to the economic problems

> the US has experienced over the last several decades. If you look on the

> 12-Steps and Politics list, you will find another Oxford Group tidbit I

> posted yesterday. If you understand a movement's historical origins, and

> its ideology, you understand a lot about what it does and where it is

> headed. AA's origin and ideology is tied to the worldwide fascist

movement

> of the 1930s. The evidence is incontrovertible. Now you should be able

to

> understand why right-wing drug warriors and big corporations, and of

course

> the government, love AA so much.

>

> ----------

> > From: Kristy2B@...

> > To: 12-step-freeegroups

> > Subject: Re: Why SO MANY get worse or die - especially

of

> interest ...

> > Date: Tuesday, February 02, 1999 9:34 PM

> >

> > I am curious...what is a Buchmanite? I have never heard of that...

> >

> > Kristy

> >

------------------------------------------------------------------------

> > Recipes, relationships. Horoscopes, health.

> > Fashion, fitness. If it's about women, it's at HomeArts.com.

> > http://offers./click/212/0

> >

February 2, 1999

Thirteenth steppers are elder members who manipulate newer members for sex.

It's not too hard to manipulate a newer member as the whole program is based

on reorganizing the thinking of the members.

Here's a short essay that will appear on my site www.AAdeprogramming.com on

this very subject. (it still needs editing though... sorry)

Predators in the rooms...

The nature of the program itself is the very reason we so frequently find this

unsavory pest - the thirteenth stepper - lurking in the rooms..

Although the author herself does not have a criminal mind many of AA's members

do, as they are former (or perhaps active criminals. They will immediately

recognize the abuse and control potentials that the program offers.

The author writes... " I guess it dawned on me during a particularly

'spiritual' meeting. The topic was 'powerlessness'.

Yuck.

This particular meeting was attended by many lovely young women, and the group

members went around the circle attesting to how their lives had improved once

they had accepted their powerlessness. Young lady after young lady would

proclaim " I'm powerless over people, places and things... and I've gotten rid

of all my justifiable anger... " Does that mean they've all forgiven those

people who sexually abused/harrassed/assaulted them (as we usually find in the

history of most alcoholic women)????? Does this mean that they can't even

recall those situations and refer to the residual anger, using it as a point

of reference to protect them from similar future incidents????

I could see some of the elder members starting to salivate as one after the

other, the women declared their powerlessness...

One particularly perverted member whom I've nicknamed " The nice thober man wid

a lotta time in the program " loves to share things like " Powerlessness is

quite empowering " .

What does that mean?

It means no more than his desire to penetrate subliminally the minds of the

other members (particularly the women) so that he can enjoy a tasty newcomer-

of-the-week.

Any organization that draws...

1. desperate people

2. teaches them to question their judgement

3. teaches them to rely on someone else's judgement

4. teaches personal powerlessness

5. insists that victims look at their part only in painful situations

6. stresses forgiveness of the wrongs done to the victim

and

7. is open to the public

8. draws the sickest most imbalanced sector of society

is a MAGNET for this type of behavior

Interestingly, most meetings are held in churches, and this adds to the

illusion of safety and goodness. The members are encouraged to share and

reveal personal tidbits of their lives and history, all this benefits the

predator.

Members are encouraged to " let go & let God " .

Rather, they, especially the women, should be encouraged to bring and extra

large can of mace.

It is often those members who push God heavily, that are the most perverted.

It's time to get your brain out of hock.

It's time to DEPROGRAM.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

February 3, 1999

Friend does take meds, they're not working anymore though.... Sponsor is not

prohibiting them. I have another friend who did a 45 pg. fourth step and felt

suicidal for weeks. She came into AA after her 25 year old marriage broke up.

Husband found younger gal on Internet. Sponsor tells this friend to do

thorough fearless inventory, writing down every resentment. Then sponsor

shows her her part in them... How does that provide relief for someone in

excruciating emotional pain?

-Apple

------------------------------------------------------------------------

February 4, 1999

Depression, alcohol consumption, blaming self. I did all of these for years.

It was only when I started to " explode " (speak up, get angry, stand up for

myself) versus implode (self-abuse) that my life improved (because I was

imbalanced toward implosion and self-blame which AA further reinforced).

AA can kill, and I don't know why the organization refuses to do a bloody

tenth step on it's own program. Just try making it through life without ever

getting angry. HA!

-Apple

------------------------------------------------------------------------

February 4, 1999

Yes , and this is exactly why I like to piss off the groupers. Whatever I

do, they think it's their own fault. It just has to be done to a great enough

extent that they realize that living this way is an impossibility. The

program tries to produce a pseudo human being, one that never gets angry and

one that forgives everything and never holds perpetratos responsible for their

actions. If I were a criminal, I'd be in a Big Book study right now. I'd be

looking for an individual who does the following:

1. Believes that a strong faith in God will protect her/him. " Let go & let

God "

2. Is afraid of anger, beleiving that it will lead to relapse and therefore

jails, institutions and death.

3. Practices forgiveness.

4. Has " stopped fighting everyone and everything " .

5. Looks for her/his part in situations and makes amends for it.

Really, it's the perfect crime. Let's say I pick out a victim at a meeting,

follow him/her home and attack the person. There's a good chance I'll get

away with it because of the indoctrination of the above beliefs. The victims

first reaction will be to stop, drop & pray. Then " let go of the justifiable

anger " and forgive.

Frequently I hear at meetings a confession like " I killed my baby " , " I spent

time in jail for rape " , " I embezzelled hundreds of thousands of dollars " .

(these are all actual confessions). These facts just get sucked into the big

spiritual marshmallow of forgiveness which hovers above each meeting. Nowhere

else would these confessions fail to raise an eyebrow the way that they do in

AA meetings. In fact, one thing that I hear frequently, is...

" back in the day, I would have rather been right than been happy "

What does this mean? Well, it means that if living a lie can allow me to be

happy, that's what I'll choose.

Good news huh? If I can find comfort in the fact that Santa Claus is real,

and that he loves all former AAs why not believe it right?

I guess this is why Marx or Jung (oops? I'm not an academic only a graphic

artist) said that religion is the opiate of the masses.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

February 4, 1999

AppleDTP@... wrote:

>

> Friend does take meds, they're not working anymore though.... Sponsor is not

> prohibiting them. I have another friend who did a 45 pg. fourth step and felt

> suicidal for weeks. She came into AA after her 25 year old marriage broke up.

> Husband found younger gal on Internet. Sponsor tells this friend to do

> thorough fearless inventory, writing down every resentment. Then sponsor

> shows her her part in them... How does that provide relief for someone in

> excruciating emotional pain?

> -Apple

Hi,

Coming out of lurker mode. There is such a thing as too much medicine--

and I don't mean drugs, I mean institutionalization. The more one is

hospitalized, the lower the self-esteem-- nurses act as if repeat

patients are guilty of the " sin " of unhappiness. I have a friend who

measures his " anniversaries " not by sobriety, but by how many years he's

managed to stay out of sobriety.

Depression is very often undermedicated-- even by psychiatrists. The

trick is to keep trying until you find one smart enough to realize it

isn't your fault that you're depressed. A fourth step during a

depression-- especially when the fault seems to have been the

husband's-- sounds not only unhelpful, but sadistic. Another case of

blaming the patient.

BTW-- sponsor has no right to allow or prohibit *any* meds, or alcohol.

Tina B.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

February 4, 1999

Apple - my own tenative answer to the question you pose is that this

technique probably does not help a person in pain, but, instead, probably

makes the pain worse. On the other hand, it does do a service for the

broader political-social system, and for those who pay and/or otherwise

reward counselors, sponsors, shrinks, etc. If you can get the victims to

always blame themselves, they will not question authority. Think how easy

a concentration camp would be to manage if you could just convince all the

inmates that what they were suffering was really do to their own faults.

Now, I know this is a stretch, but metaphorically speaking, haven't all the

pressures and breakdowns in American society really resulted in a culture

so " painful " to many that it really is, in a way, like living in a

" concentration camp " without barbed wire. After all, counselors who deal

with the homeless routinely focus upon " what they did " to end up in that

situation - they do not focus upon the price of housing or the lack of home

construction. The general technique, useful to society but harmful to the

individual, is called " blaming the victim. "

----------

> From: AppleDTP@...

> To: 12-step-freeegroups

> Subject: Re: Why SO MANY get worse or die - especially of

interest ...

> Date: Thursday, February 04, 1999 6:24 AM

>

> Friend does take meds, they're not working anymore though.... Sponsor is

not

> prohibiting them. I have another friend who did a 45 pg. fourth step and

felt

> suicidal for weeks. She came into AA after her 25 year old marriage

broke up.

> Husband found younger gal on Internet. Sponsor tells this friend to do

> thorough fearless inventory, writing down every resentment. Then sponsor

> shows her her part in them... How does that provide relief for someone

in

> excruciating emotional pain?

> -Apple

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> @Backup- Automatic, Safe, Reliable online backups

> and restores. Free for 30 days.

> Download Now. http://offers./click/215/0

>

February 4, 1999

Apple,

It's a sick world, isn't it? You gave me another reminder of why I won't, no can't, go to those wretched meetings!

Noel

Apple wrote: