Guest guest Posted December 28, 1998 Report Share Posted December 28, 1998 I am going to leave this list and see what happens on the new " 12-step and politics " one. Unfortunately, it is possible that interest in the politics of the 12-Step movement will be slight in the US. (After all, interest in the politics of recent bombing of Iraq was virtually non-existant, and the interest in the massively expanding war in Columbia IS non-existant). Survey data show that most entrants to AA (other 12-Step groups are not so well researched) tend to be much more middle-class, more politically " conservative, " and more " authoritarian " in personality make-up (usually measured using the F-scale on the MMPI), than the population at large. But the population " at large " in the US is also authoritarian and reactionary, as most people who have lived abroad for awhile (or even those old enough to remember the Sixties) will testify. The " conservative revolution " in America is a fact. Anyway, I suppose it makes sense that those who, for one reason or another, have found that AA or another 12-Step group has inconvenienced them personally, seek to complain, bitch, whine, seek alternatives, etc. This is what we all do when something happens that annoys us. But an oyster, when distressed, is capable of making a pearl. People can use their bad experiences to formulate pearls of wisdom. It is saddening to see that, in the US, an absolute unwillingness to use the failures and crimes of the 12-Step movement as a basis social and political reassessment is so deeply ingrained. Noam Chomsky calls this the " Limit to Thinkable Thought " in American culture: some ideas simply cannot and will not be entertained. Questioning the broad direction in which AA/12-Step/War On Drugs/Spiritual Revolution is carrying the US is one of these things. Bitching about one's personal experiences is ok; learning too much from them is dangerous, and definitely not ok. I just finished reading Last Train From Berlin, 1942, H. K. . (a US reporter who was in Germany for several years). In Germany, too, in the late thirties and early forties, the middle class moaned and groaned and complained. Many disliked the nazi policies, at least when they rubbed up against them personally in an unpleasant way. The majority did not believe the nazi ideology in full, tho of course the lies were so massive and so ubiquitous that they seeped into public consciousness (much as the myths of " addiction, " or the " great drug menace " have seeped into the public consciousness of the US. But virtually nowhere, except in a few small pockets of intellectual resistance, was a full understanding of the nazis sought, or even tolerated. Germans bitched about how the nazis annoyed them at a personal level, but they were too gutless, too narcissistic, too " middle class, " to go beyond the Limit of Thinkable Thought. What made Hitler possible was not that Germans were pro-nazi, but that they chose to be apolitical. They desperately sought to limit discussion only to their personal complaints, and to avoid the dangerous task of seeing the broader picture. And all it takes of course, for the victory of evil, is for good men and women to do nothing. ---------- > > To: 12-step-freeegroups > Subject: Re: discussion format > Date: Sunday, December 27, 1998 10:19 AM > > Go to www./list/12-step-free/ and you will find the purpose of the group posted. My take on it is that 's 1) is the main purpose, 2) and 3) are not mentioned. The paragraph states that discussion of alternatives to *A are welcome, but not the main focus of the group. > > I, too, don't want to see this turned into a political forum, and perhaps I should not have contributed as much to those threads as I have. On the other hand, digressions will happen, and they are often interesting and informative. > > Kayleigh > > Will there be an ultimate authority on that question below? Carol At > > 06:40 AM 12/27/98 -0000, you wrote: > > >It would seem there are three types of posters here. 1) those who wonder > > about AA, or some other specific group (these are often people who think > > AA, etc, works for some folks, but who are currently questioning whether it > > will work for them). 2) those who see the entire 12-Step movement as a > > dangerous cult, which is being coercively forced upon millions via > > government, employer and treatment industry officials. 3) those who see > > the 12-Step movement as itself merely a particularly visible symptom of a > > broader cultural change: America's vast politico-cultural " Spiritual > > Revolution " (myself, of course, and also a few others who have expressed > > especial interest in this broader pattern of change). These are three > > very different areas of interest, and even imply quite different > > presuppositions as to what AA, say, is all about. The question is: what > > is appropriate in this forum? > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > >Leave the web behind and enter the magic world of Disney > > >Loads of games, activities, and all your favorite characters in one place > > >http://ads./click/133/1 > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 28, 1998 Report Share Posted December 28, 1998 Finding this group has only strengthened my desire to fight the governments control over our basic freedoms.. Some of us are doing more than 'bitching' but it is a long hard road and it is impossible to reason with the unreasonable. The courts, the probation officials, the 'driver safety education professionals' etc are all part of the cult. It is just like the original " invasion of the body snatchers " they look like us but they are not us and there seem to be many more of them. I welcome any ideas or suggestions of how to bring an end to the 'recovery group movement' and the government's continuing attempt to save us from ourselves. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 28, 1998 Report Share Posted December 28, 1998 At 11:48 AM 12/28/98 -0600, you wrote: >I am going to leave this list and see what happens on the new " 12-step and >politics " one. Good. I intend to get the book " Last Train for Berlin " 1942. I always described my self with a certain pride as to being " apolitical " but have discovered that those with the loudest voices do win. Hence the horrid political mess we find ourselves in = maybe they have more testosterone. It is time to use the internet to forward the cause of freedom from persecution and explotiation in the addictions industry. For goodness sake, the damn residential " treatment " centers (fancy AA indoctrination aligned with the book purchasing faction of AA) are on the New York and American stock exchange! Now, there's a good investment, revolving door enterprise. Unfortunately, it is possible that interest in the >politics of the 12-Step movement will be slight in the US. (After all, >interest in the politics of recent bombing of Iraq was virtually >non-existant, and the interest in the massively expanding war in Columbia >IS non-existant). Survey data show that most entrants to AA (other 12-Step >groups are not so well researched) tend to be much more middle-class, more >politically " conservative, " and more " authoritarian " in personality make-up >(usually measured using the F-scale on the MMPI), than the population at >large. But the population " at large " in the US is also authoritarian and >reactionary, as most people who have lived abroad for awhile (or even those >old enough to remember the Sixties) will testify. The " conservative >revolution " in America is a fact. Anyway, I suppose it makes sense that >those who, for one reason or another, have found that AA or another 12-Step >group has inconvenienced them personally, seek to complain, bitch, whine, >seek alternatives, etc. This is what we all do when something happens that >annoys us. But an oyster, when distressed, is capable of making a pearl. Yo! Shake the tree, it is overipe. >People can use their bad experiences to formulate pearls of wisdom. It is >saddening to see that, in the US, an absolute unwillingness to use the >failures and crimes of the 12-Step movement as a basis social and political >reassessment is so deeply ingrained. >Noam Chomsky calls this the " Limit to >Thinkable Thought " in American culture: some ideas simply cannot and will >not be entertained. Does his thinking encourage action? Questioning the broad direction in which >AA/12-Step/War On Drugs/Spiritual Revolution is carrying the US is one of >these things. Bitching about one's personal experiences is ok; learning >too much from them is dangerous, and definitely not ok. I just finished >reading Last Train From Berlin, 1942, H. K. . (a US reporter who was >in Germany for several years). In Germany, too, in the late thirties and >early forties, the middle class moaned and groaned and complained. Many >disliked the nazi policies, at least when they rubbed up against them >personally in an unpleasant way. The majority did not believe the nazi >ideology in full, tho of course the lies were so massive and so ubiquitous >that they seeped into public consciousness (much as the myths of > " addiction, " or the " great drug menace " have seeped into the public >consciousness of the US. But virtually nowhere, except in a few small >pockets of intellectual resistance, was a full understanding of the nazis >sought, or even tolerated. Germans bitched about how the nazis annoyed >them at a personal level, but they were too gutless, too narcissistic, too > " middle class, " to go beyond the Limit of Thinkable Thought. What made >Hitler possible was not that Germans were pro-nazi, but that they chose to >be apolitical. They desperately sought to limit discussion only to their >personal complaints, and to avoid the dangerous task of seeing the broader >picture. And all it takes of course, for the victory of evil, is for good >men and women to do nothing. ---------- The above warms the cockles of my heart. Bravo! Yes, lets start the train and action to follow. Are any of you willing to speak to judges, a & d counsellors, corrections? Or did I just squelch? I'm just as keen as ever to do. Take Care, Carol Francey >> >> To: 12-step-freeegroups >> Subject: Re: discussion format >> Date: Sunday, December 27, 1998 10:19 AM >> >> Go to www./list/12-step-free/ and you will find the purpose of >the group posted. My take on it is that 's 1) is the main purpose, 2) >and 3) are not mentioned. The paragraph states that discussion of >alternatives to *A are welcome, but not the main focus of the group. >> >> I, too, don't want to see this turned into a political forum, and perhaps >I should not have contributed as much to those threads as I have. On the >other hand, digressions will happen, and they are often interesting and >informative. >> >> Kayleigh >> >> Will there be an ultimate authority on that question below? Carol At >> > 06:40 AM 12/27/98 -0000, you wrote: >> > >It would seem there are three types of posters here. 1) those who >wonder >> > about AA, or some other specific group (these are often people who >think >> > AA, etc, works for some folks, but who are currently questioning >whether it >> > will work for them). 2) those who see the entire 12-Step movement as a >> > dangerous cult, which is being coercively forced upon millions via >> > government, employer and treatment industry officials. 3) those who >see >> > the 12-Step movement as itself merely a particularly visible symptom of >a >> > broader cultural change: America's vast politico-cultural " Spiritual >> > Revolution " (myself, of course, and also a few others who have >expressed >> > especial interest in this broader pattern of change). These are three >> > very different areas of interest, and even imply quite different >> > presuppositions as to what AA, say, is all about. The question is: >what >> > is appropriate in this forum? >> > > >> > >>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> > >Leave the web behind and enter the magic world of Disney >> > >Loads of games, activities, and all your favorite characters in one >place >> > >http://ads./click/133/1 >> > > >> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 28, 1998 Report Share Posted December 28, 1998 E Diener wrote: > > I am going to leave this list and see what happens on the new " 12-step and > politics " one. Unfortunately, it is possible that interest in the > politics of the 12-Step movement will be slight in the US. , That is something I'm curious about. One thing that has surprised me is that the anti-war-on-drugs people and the libertarians seem almost totally unconcerned with the step movement. Perhaps having in print shortly the details of 1,000,000 people being coerced will help. > (After all, > interest in the politics of recent bombing of Iraq was virtually > non-existant, and the interest in the massively expanding war in Columbia > IS non-existant). Survey data show that most entrants to AA (other 12-Step > groups are not so well researched) tend to be much more middle-class, more > politically " conservative, " and more " authoritarian " in personality make-up > (usually measured using the F-scale on the MMPI), than the population at > large. But the population " at large " in the US is also authoritarian and > reactionary, as most people who have lived abroad for awhile (or even those > old enough to remember the Sixties) will testify. The " conservative > revolution " in America is a fact. Anyway, I suppose it makes sense that > those who, for one reason or another, have found that AA or another 12-Step > group has inconvenienced them personally, seek to complain, bitch, whine, > seek alternatives, etc. This is what we all do when something happens that > annoys us. But an oyster, when distressed, is capable of making a pearl. > People can use their bad experiences to formulate pearls of wisdom. It is > saddening to see that, in the US, an absolute unwillingness to use the > failures and crimes of the 12-Step movement as a basis social and political > reassessment is so deeply ingrained. Noam Chomsky calls this the " Limit to > Thinkable Thought " in American culture: some ideas simply cannot and will > not be entertained. Questioning the broad direction in which > AA/12-Step/War On Drugs/Spiritual Revolution is carrying the US is one of > these things. Bitching about one's personal experiences is ok; learning > too much from them is dangerous, and definitely not ok. I just finished > reading Last Train From Berlin, 1942, H. K. . (a US reporter who was > in Germany for several years). In Germany, too, in the late thirties and > early forties, the middle class moaned and groaned and complained. Many > disliked the nazi policies, at least when they rubbed up against them > personally in an unpleasant way. The majority did not believe the nazi > ideology in full, tho of course the lies were so massive and so ubiquitous > that they seeped into public consciousness (much as the myths of > " addiction, " or the " great drug menace " have seeped into the public > consciousness of the US. But virtually nowhere, except in a few small > pockets of intellectual resistance, was a full understanding of the nazis > sought, or even tolerated. Germans bitched about how the nazis annoyed > them at a personal level, but they were too gutless, too narcissistic, too > " middle class, " to go beyond the Limit of Thinkable Thought. What made > Hitler possible was not that Germans were pro-nazi, but that they chose to > be apolitical. They desperately sought to limit discussion only to their > personal complaints, and to avoid the dangerous task of seeing the broader > picture. And all it takes of course, for the victory of evil, is for good > men and women to do nothing. I think you are being extremely hard on the listmembers here. Are " personal complaints " never to be mentioned? When I left the step groups 12 or 14 years ago, I knew _no one_ that I could share my " personal complaints " with that had _any_ clue what I was talking about. As far as I'm concerned, everyone ought to " complain away " to their hearts content. The worst thing about leaving the groups for me was the loneliness and I was in only a short time. As I'd have thoughts critical of the groups there was _no_ confirmation from _anywhere_. Just because of a quirk in my nature, when I don't understand something or am bothered by something I learn everything I can about it. It ended up, over the next two or three years I got tons of confirmation and was exposed to idea in support of much of what I knew intuitively, but that was all in basement libraries and on microfilm. " No man is an island . . . " There is a great deal of self-betrayal that goes on in grouper indoctrination. Someone who comes out of the groups does one of two things, either joins another cult-like group or strikes off on an independent path, overcomes the self-betrayal. The people here, by and large at the very least, are perhaps the most independent group of people I've ever come across. There is a great deal of " self-will run riot " here. <G> It is strange, much of what you say, I've said or at least thought before. Certainly, I see a broad-based " spiritual " movement much like has been reported in Germany in the 20s and 30s. I'm also strongly opposed to the war on drugs and much, if not all, of our military involvement in other countries. I suppose what gets my dander up about you is the way you come across, extremely authoritarian. Your general ideas about the threat of fascism in this country not at all. Another thing is your charges of " narcissism. " One of my favorite books was written by Lowen and titled " narcisim. " Here is an excerpt. ****************************************************** " To be special, one must deny one's identification with one's body, for that identification would mean that one is like everyone else. . . .Everyone loves, hates, and gets angry, sad, frightened, etc. The special person has to be above the body and its feelings. .. . . Where the special person lives in the clouds, in images, the common people are grounded in the reality of life. They laugh and cry, have pleasure and pain, know sorrow and joy. They _live_ their lives and so are fulfilled. The special person imagines a life. And in this way the special person does create a special destiny -- to see his or her image crumble, as Dorian Gray did when reality confronted him. " -- Lowen, " Narcissism: Denial of the True Self " ****************************************************** Ken Ragge ---------- > > > > To: 12-step-freeegroups > > Subject: Re: discussion format > > Date: Sunday, December 27, 1998 10:19 AM > > > > Go to www./list/12-step-free/ and you will find the purpose of > the group posted. My take on it is that 's 1) is the main purpose, 2) > and 3) are not mentioned. The paragraph states that discussion of > alternatives to *A are welcome, but not the main focus of the group. > > > > I, too, don't want to see this turned into a political forum, and perhaps > I should not have contributed as much to those threads as I have. On the > other hand, digressions will happen, and they are often interesting and > informative. > > > > Kayleigh > > > > Will there be an ultimate authority on that question below? Carol At > > > 06:40 AM 12/27/98 -0000, you wrote: > > > >It would seem there are three types of posters here. 1) those who > wonder > > > about AA, or some other specific group (these are often people who > think > > > AA, etc, works for some folks, but who are currently questioning > whether it > > > will work for them). 2) those who see the entire 12-Step movement as a > > > dangerous cult, which is being coercively forced upon millions via > > > government, employer and treatment industry officials. 3) those who > see > > > the 12-Step movement as itself merely a particularly visible symptom of > a > > > broader cultural change: America's vast politico-cultural " Spiritual > > > Revolution " (myself, of course, and also a few others who have > expressed > > > especial interest in this broader pattern of change). These are three > > > very different areas of interest, and even imply quite different > > > presuppositions as to what AA, say, is all about. The question is: > what > > > is appropriate in this forum? > > > > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > >Leave the web behind and enter the magic world of Disney > > > >Loads of games, activities, and all your favorite characters in one > place > > > >http://ads./click/133/1 > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 28, 1998 Report Share Posted December 28, 1998 Ken, Where you get the notion that libertarians are unconcerned about the step movement, I don't know. The Libertarian Party's position is complete separation of state and medicine, and I agree with this position one hundred per cent. Tommy >From 12-step-free-return-981-tommyperkins Mon Dec 28 13:17:00 1998 >Received: from [209.185.96.155] by hotmail.com (1.0) with SMTP id MHotMail30923326152285335065324863518587035292170; Mon Dec 28 13:17:00 1998 >Received: (qmail 17738 invoked by uid 505); 28 Dec 1998 21:16:01 -0000 >Mailing-List: contact 12-step-free-owneregroups >Precedence: list >X-URL: /list/12-step-free/ >X-Mailing-List: 12-step-freeegroups >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-12-step-freeegroups >Received: (qmail 23337 invoked by uid 7770); 28 Dec 1998 21:16:01 -0000 >Received: from uhura.concentric.net (206.173.119.93) > by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 1998 21:16:01 -0000 >Received: from cliff.concentric.net ([206.173.119.90]) > by uhura.concentric.net (8.9.1a/(98/12/15 5.12)) > id QAA29609; Mon, 28 Dec 1998 16:15:50 -0500 (EST) > [1- The Concentric Network] >Errors-To: >Received: from concentric.net (ts021d26.cup-ca.concentric.net [209.31.14.38]) > by cliff.concentric.net (8.9.1a) > id QAA28496; Mon, 28 Dec 1998 16:15:45 -0500 (EST) >Message-ID: >Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 13:21:18 -0800 > >X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) >MIME-Version: 1.0 >To: 12-step-freeegroups >References: >Subject: Re: discussion format >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > E Diener wrote: >> >> I am going to leave this list and see what happens on the new " 12-step and >> politics " one. Unfortunately, it is possible that interest in the >> politics of the 12-Step movement will be slight in the US. > >, > >That is something I'm curious about. One thing that has surprised me is >that the anti-war-on-drugs people and the libertarians seem almost >totally unconcerned with the step movement. Perhaps having in print >shortly the details of 1,000,000 people being coerced will help. > >> (After all, >> interest in the politics of recent bombing of Iraq was virtually >> non-existant, and the interest in the massively expanding war in Columbia >> IS non-existant). Survey data show that most entrants to AA (other 12-Step >> groups are not so well researched) tend to be much more middle-class, more >> politically " conservative, " and more " authoritarian " in personality make-up >> (usually measured using the F-scale on the MMPI), than the population at >> large. But the population " at large " in the US is also authoritarian and >> reactionary, as most people who have lived abroad for awhile (or even those >> old enough to remember the Sixties) will testify. The " conservative >> revolution " in America is a fact. Anyway, I suppose it makes sense that >> those who, for one reason or another, have found that AA or another 12-Step >> group has inconvenienced them personally, seek to complain, bitch, whine, >> seek alternatives, etc. This is what we all do when something happens that >> annoys us. But an oyster, when distressed, is capable of making a pearl. >> People can use their bad experiences to formulate pearls of wisdom. It is >> saddening to see that, in the US, an absolute unwillingness to use the >> failures and crimes of the 12-Step movement as a basis social and political >> reassessment is so deeply ingrained. Noam Chomsky calls this the " Limit to >> Thinkable Thought " in American culture: some ideas simply cannot and will >> not be entertained. Questioning the broad direction in which >> AA/12-Step/War On Drugs/Spiritual Revolution is carrying the US is one of >> these things. Bitching about one's personal experiences is ok; learning >> too much from them is dangerous, and definitely not ok. I just finished >> reading Last Train From Berlin, 1942, H. K. . (a US reporter who was >> in Germany for several years). In Germany, too, in the late thirties and >> early forties, the middle class moaned and groaned and complained. Many >> disliked the nazi policies, at least when they rubbed up against them >> personally in an unpleasant way. The majority did not believe the nazi >> ideology in full, tho of course the lies were so massive and so ubiquitous >> that they seeped into public consciousness (much as the myths of >> " addiction, " or the " great drug menace " have seeped into the public >> consciousness of the US. But virtually nowhere, except in a few small >> pockets of intellectual resistance, was a full understanding of the nazis >> sought, or even tolerated. Germans bitched about how the nazis annoyed >> them at a personal level, but they were too gutless, too narcissistic, too >> " middle class, " to go beyond the Limit of Thinkable Thought. What made >> Hitler possible was not that Germans were pro-nazi, but that they chose to >> be apolitical. They desperately sought to limit discussion only to their >> personal complaints, and to avoid the dangerous task of seeing the broader >> picture. And all it takes of course, for the victory of evil, is for good >> men and women to do nothing. > >I think you are being extremely hard on the listmembers here. Are > " personal complaints " never to be mentioned? When I left the step >groups 12 or 14 years ago, I knew _no one_ that I could share my > " personal complaints " with that had _any_ clue what I was talking >about. As far as I'm concerned, everyone ought to " complain away " to >their hearts content. > >The worst thing about leaving the groups for me was the loneliness and I >was in only a short time. As I'd have thoughts critical of the groups >there was _no_ confirmation from _anywhere_. Just because of a quirk in >my nature, when I don't understand something or am bothered by something >I learn everything I can about it. It ended up, over the next two or >three years I got tons of confirmation and was exposed to idea in >support of much of what I knew intuitively, but that was all in basement >libraries and on microfilm. > > " No man is an island . . . " > >There is a great deal of self-betrayal that goes on in grouper >indoctrination. Someone who comes out of the groups does one of two >things, either joins another cult-like group or strikes off on an >independent path, overcomes the self-betrayal. The people here, by and >large at the very least, are perhaps the most independent group of >people I've ever come across. There is a great deal of " self-will run >riot " here. <G> > >It is strange, much of what you say, I've said or at least thought >before. Certainly, I see a broad-based " spiritual " movement much like >has been reported in Germany in the 20s and 30s. I'm also strongly >opposed to the war on drugs and much, if not all, of our military >involvement in other countries. I suppose what gets my dander up about >you is the way you come across, extremely authoritarian. Your general >ideas about the threat of fascism in this country not at all. > >Another thing is your charges of " narcissism. " One of my favorite books >was written by Lowen and titled " narcisim. " Here is an >excerpt. > > >****************************************************** > > " To be special, one must deny one's identification >with one's body, for that identification would mean >that one is like everyone else. . . .Everyone loves, >hates, and gets angry, sad, frightened, etc. The >special person has to be above the body and its >feelings. > >. . . Where the special person lives in the clouds, >in images, the common people are grounded in the >reality of life. They laugh and cry, have pleasure >and pain, know sorrow and joy. They _live_ their >lives and so are fulfilled. The special person >imagines a life. And in this way the special person >does create a special destiny -- to see his or her >image crumble, as Dorian Gray did when reality >confronted him. " > > -- Lowen, > " Narcissism: Denial of the True Self " > >****************************************************** > >Ken Ragge > > ---------- >> > >> > To: 12-step-freeegroups >> > Subject: Re: discussion format >> > Date: Sunday, December 27, 1998 10:19 AM >> > >> > Go to www./list/12-step-free/ and you will find the purpose of >> the group posted. My take on it is that 's 1) is the main purpose, 2) >> and 3) are not mentioned. The paragraph states that discussion of >> alternatives to *A are welcome, but not the main focus of the group. >> > >> > I, too, don't want to see this turned into a political forum, and perhaps >> I should not have contributed as much to those threads as I have. On the >> other hand, digressions will happen, and they are often interesting and >> informative. >> > >> > Kayleigh >> > >> > Will there be an ultimate authority on that question below? Carol At >> > > 06:40 AM 12/27/98 -0000, you wrote: >> > > >It would seem there are three types of posters here. 1) those who >> wonder >> > > about AA, or some other specific group (these are often people who >> think >> > > AA, etc, works for some folks, but who are currently questioning >> whether it >> > > will work for them). 2) those who see the entire 12-Step movement as a >> > > dangerous cult, which is being coercively forced upon millions via >> > > government, employer and treatment industry officials. 3) those who >> see >> > > the 12-Step movement as itself merely a particularly visible symptom of >> a >> > > broader cultural change: America's vast politico-cultural " Spiritual >> > > Revolution " (myself, of course, and also a few others who have >> expressed >> > > especial interest in this broader pattern of change). These are three >> > > very different areas of interest, and even imply quite different >> > > presuppositions as to what AA, say, is all about. The question is: >> what >> > > is appropriate in this forum? >> > > > >> > > >> >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> > > >Leave the web behind and enter the magic world of Disney >> > > >Loads of games, activities, and all your favorite characters in one >> place >> > > >http://ads./click/133/1 >> > > > >> > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 29, 1998 Report Share Posted December 29, 1998 on some level there is a fine line. If you commit a crime, well, the government mandates you to jail; that is certainly against my individual rights- ask any criminal. With drunk driving and such, I guess the punishment fits the crime(in their eyes). AA is a grist mill for humanity: you either stay there forever, become a very strong person for having fought your way out(YAY!)leading you to live an acceptable life, or ultimately you die through overdose, or suicide. In any case, you are gone from the general populice and no longer cause trouble. ---MARDINOYES@... wrote: > > Finding this group has only strengthened my desire to fight the governments > control over our basic freedoms.. Some of us are doing more than 'bitching' > but it is a long hard road and it is impossible to reason with the > unreasonable. The courts, the probation officials, the 'driver safety > education professionals' etc are all part of the cult. It is just like the > original " invasion of the body snatchers " they look like us but they are not > us and there seem to be many more of them. I welcome any ideas or suggestions > of how to bring an end to the 'recovery group movement' and the government's > continuing attempt to save us from ourselves. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Heart Disease. Family Medicine. ADD. Arthritis. Asthma. Neuroscience. > Hundreds of expert human guides to lead you through thousands of topics. > Explore The Mining Co. http://offers./click/195/0 > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 29, 1998 Report Share Posted December 29, 1998 Tommy Perkins wrote: > > Ken, > > Where you get the notion that libertarians are unconcerned about the > step movement, I don't know. The Libertarian Party's position is > complete separation of state and medicine, and I agree with this > position one hundred per cent. > > Tommy > Tommy, I'm not slamming the Libertarian Party. That's how I am registered myself. All I'm trying to say is that the problems with the step groups are not drawing much more attention from the Libertarians than from anywhere else. The sense that I get is that the step groups are overall considered a minor inconsequential problem and there are much bigger, much more important fish to fry. The problem, as I see it, is essentially simply a dearth of information on the step groups from other than the step groups. The enormity and seriousness of the problem simply hasn't been properly expounded yet. Perhaps Chaz's writing of the over 1,000,000 people coerced into the groups will be helpful. It seems to work better to say " read this " and hand someone something well reasoned and well documented to read at their leisure than to try to chew their ears off. I've tried a few times to chew libertarians' ears off to no positive effect. I'm not involved with the party in any way other than registration and haven't spoken to any actual members in years, so perhaps things have changed. Ken Ragge ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 29, 1998 Report Share Posted December 29, 1998 At 11:39 AM 12/29/98 -0800, you wrote: >Tommy Perkins wrote: >> >> Ken, >> >> Where you get the notion that libertarians are unconcerned about the >> step movement, I don't know. The Libertarian Party's position is >> complete separation of state and medicine, and I agree with this >> position one hundred per cent. >> >> Tommy >> > >Tommy, > >I'm not slamming the Libertarian Party. That's how I am registered >myself. All I'm trying to say is that the problems with the step groups >are not drawing much more attention from the Libertarians than from >anywhere else. The sense that I get is that the step groups are overall >considered a minor inconsequential problem and there are much bigger, >much more important fish to fry. > >The problem, as I see it, is essentially simply a dearth of information >on the step groups from other than the step groups. I don't quite get this statement. Could you elaborate for I see an enormity of 12 step groups including " Clutters Anonymous " , Emotions Anon. ( " I'm powerless over my emotions????). The groups abound. Explain, please. >seriousness of the problem simply hasn't been properly expounded yet. >Perhaps Chaz's writing of the over 1,000,000 people coerced into the >groups will be helpful. It seems to work better to say " read this " and >hand someone something well reasoned and well documented to read at >their leisure than to try to chew their ears off. Yes, also Vince Fox. What a brilliant statistical and empirically researched book! Addiction, Change and Choice, 1993, Sharp Press. >I've tried a few times >to chew libertarians' ears off to no positive effect. > >I'm not involved with the party in any way other than registration and >haven't spoken to any actual members in years, so perhaps things have >changed. How about the Humanist Organizations? They have asked me to come and speak and present secular recovery and AVRT. Any members out there? Thanks and plum pudding, Carol Francey, RR Vancouver >Ken Ragge > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Heart Disease. Family Medicine. ADD. Arthritis. Asthma. Neuroscience. >Hundreds of expert human guides to lead you through thousands of topics. >Explore The Mining Co. http://offers./click/195/0 > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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