Guest guest Posted February 9, 1999 Report Share Posted February 9, 1999 Hi Kim: You've left12 step prison!!! I'm a new escapee too. I'm working on a web site called www.AAdeprogramming.com . It will be up this weekend. It will have a collection of essays concerning why people drop out of AA. For me, as a woman raised in strict patriarchy (eastern european family), the authority sh*t did not serve me at all. Also, since I had some emotional abuse, rape and other junk in my past, I could not forgive and found out through therapy that I don't need to. 's book is called AA horror stories, and I should be in it. Please contact her, she was very helpful to me. -Apple ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 1999 Report Share Posted February 9, 1999 kim h wrote: > > Hi my name is Kim. I spent 8 years of hell in AA/NA/abusive treatment > centres, I got out a year ago by reading Bufe and Ragge's books > especially, but also alternative steps,RR,SOS,etc. > I was glad to read message from Ben Bradley since he was in AA for > 10 years. I like to hear from anyone who left AA but sometimes I feel > like a real idiot when people say they " clued in " and left AA after > only a few months. It's nice to have company. Any other " way,way too > long-timers " out there? Hey, at least I got out.Yah! > Also someone please tell me what/where is the ex-AA mailing list.And > what is Fransway's book going to be about? Hi, I believe you're on the ex-AA mailing list already. I'd be interested in your story --if you'd prefer sending it privately, feel free to do so. And congrats for getting out-- too much time talking about alcoholism, relapse, death, and other sordid topics can probably lead to relapse. Tina " The Truth points to itself. " Kosh ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 1999 Report Share Posted February 9, 1999 actually this is 12-step-free mailing list, there is actualy a seperate lsit called thr ex-aa list. its older than this list and there is signifcantly less disussion on it. -dave ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 1999 Report Share Posted February 9, 1999 I've been seriously reconsidering my AA membership. I have been paying more and more attention in meetings and finding less and less to agree with. Most everyone talks about god, prayer, turning it over, why they believe, derides their own thinking, says that AA is the only way, ad nauseum in meetings, and I can think of approaches to living that I could probably take on my own that would do me more good than practicing the steps. One problem I have is that I like my sponsor, and I know it will probably hurt him if I leave. Another problem is that I don't have any friends to speak of outside the program, besides on the internet, and it looks like I'll be back at square one with some personal problems that have bothered me for a long time. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 1999 Report Share Posted February 9, 1999 <<I've been seriously reconsidering my AA membership. I have been paying more and more attention in meetings and finding less and less to agree with. Most everyone talks about god, prayer, turning it over, why they believe, derides their own thinking, says that AA is the only way, ad nauseum in meetings, and I can think of approaches to living that I could probably take on my own that would do me more good than practicing the steps. One problem I have is that I like my sponsor, and I know it will probably hurt him if I leave. Another problem is that I don't have any friends to speak of outside the program, besides on the internet, and it looks like I'll be back at square one with some personal problems that have bothered me for a long time.>> If the price of group support and participation is the compromise of my integrity. Is that really a group I want to belong to? If a friend will not stay true because of my opinions, is it really a friendship? I've broken away from meetings for the most part, and actually some of my friends have distanced themselves (because all I talk about is AA and my dislike of it), but I'm chanelling all my opinions into the Web site. Hopefully this will empty out my head. I'm thinking of moving to a different area eventually and reinventing myself as someone who isn't alcoholic but never went to AA. I just don't want to have that annoying argument over and over. I'm sure there's a way to meet people without compromising integrity. Just ask normal people how they do it. -Apple ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 1999 Report Share Posted February 9, 1999 -----Original Message----- [snip] >I like to hear from anyone who left AA but sometimes I feel >like a real idiot when people say they " clued in " and left AA after >only a few months. It's nice to have company. Any other " way,way too >long-timers " out there? Hey, at least I got out.Yah! I 'kept going back' for a total of 12 years. Although I managed to put together a couple of year+ spells of abstinence, I think now that I would have had no real chance for long-term sobriety unless I got out and stayed out, which I did 6 years ago. I have been sober ever since. For me the problem was that it (AA) made no sense -- I actually liked the meetings and the people at all. But trying to take The Program seriously was like trying to maintain a sincere belief in the Easter Bunny -- I couldn't manage to do it, especially when I hadn't had a drink in a while and my mind was relatively clear. Keep in mind that in the early 80's, when I first started going, alternative support groups didn't exist and literature criticizing the Step Cult didn't get published. Also, insurers were still paying for 28-day programs for everybody, and a couple of the ones I went through were very smooth and convincing. There is a big difference between then and now. Still, it is very easy for me to imagine someone, even now, getting stuck in AA, not coming across alternative concepts or getting sufficiently brainwashed not to consider them. So, please give yourself a pat on the back for having enough sanity and smarts to engineer your escape! Congratulations! -- Wally ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 1999 Report Share Posted February 9, 1999 Wally - " sobriety, " if you mean abstinence, is not necessarily a marker of healthy and happy adjustment. Neither should " moderate drinking " be necessarily viewed as the preferred lifestyle. I think a healthy adjustment has occurred when the individual simply has alcohol under control, whether he or she chooses to drink or not. Alcohol is not " under control, " either, if it is mythologized into a " demonic substance " that supposedly causes all sorts of problems. (This is not a criticism of you at all, and I am not claiming this is your position). Why should alcohol - or peanut butter, or shoe polish - come to dominate anyone's thinking? The cult of AA - and the government and corporate agencies who push that cult so assiduously, are, of course, responsible for most of the harm done in this area. ---------- > > To: 12-step-freeegroups > Subject: Re: other > Date: Tuesday, February 09, 1999 10:18 PM > > > -----Original Message----- > > > [snip] > > >I like to hear from anyone who left AA but sometimes I feel > >like a real idiot when people say they " clued in " and left AA after > >only a few months. It's nice to have company. Any other " way,way too > >long-timers " out there? Hey, at least I got out.Yah! > > > I 'kept going back' for a total of 12 years. Although I managed to put > together a couple of year+ spells of abstinence, I think now that I would > have had no real chance for long-term sobriety unless I got out and stayed > out, which I did 6 years ago. I have been sober ever since. For me the > problem was that it (AA) made no sense -- I actually liked the meetings and > the people at all. But trying to take The Program seriously was like trying > to maintain a sincere belief in the Easter Bunny -- I couldn't manage to do > it, especially when I hadn't had a drink in a while and my mind was > relatively clear. > > Keep in mind that in the early 80's, when I first started going, alternative > support groups didn't exist and literature criticizing the Step Cult didn't > get published. Also, insurers were still paying for 28-day programs for > everybody, and a couple of the ones I went through were very smooth and > convincing. There is a big difference between then and now. Still, it is > very easy for me to imagine someone, even now, getting stuck in AA, not > coming across alternative concepts or getting sufficiently brainwashed not > to consider them. > > So, please give yourself a pat on the back for having enough sanity and > smarts to engineer your escape! Congratulations! > > -- Wally > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > One day scientists will discover a natural > solution for hair loss. That day is here .... > Hair Genesis http://offers./click/224/0 > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 1999 Report Share Posted February 9, 1999 wrote: Original Article: /list/12-step-free/?start=2139 > - do you have a publisher and publication date? I am very > interested in getting a copy of your book, when published. Also, if you > send me some guidelines for contributing a " story, " I will submit mine to > you. ciao > Hi I'd like very much to get your story. Write it out in an email, around 1000-3000 words (less or more is okay--just trying to give you an idea) YOu may have several stories, or know of several incidents which happened to you or friends. The main guidlines is that the story be first person and true. The book will be published by See Sharp Press next year. But I'm very rapidly getting it together, and will submit a first draft within a few months. Best fransway29@... http:www.zinezone.com/users/fransway > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 1999 Report Share Posted February 9, 1999 At 11:37 PM 2/9/99 EST, you wrote: >I've been seriously reconsidering my AA membership. I have been paying more >and more attention in meetings and finding less and less to agree with. Most >everyone talks about god, prayer, turning it over, why they believe, derides >their own thinking, says that AA is the only way, ad nauseum in meetings, and >I can think of approaches to living that I could probably take on my own that >would do me more good than practicing the steps. One problem I have is that I >like my sponsor, and I know it will probably hurt him if I leave. This should not be your problem. We are not responsible for others feelings and certainly not for their committment to any program or belief. You can be friends but if he tries to recruit you again and again or phophesizes doom and intoxication if you leave the group then this person is not on your side. Another >problem is that I don't have any friends to speak of outside the program, >besides on the internet, and it looks like I'll be back at square one with >some personal problems that have bothered me for a long time. Not back to zero since you are no longer intoxicating. You can find groups to join who do activities related to passions not avoidance of passion related to drugs or alcohol. You can join a political, social, creative, volunteer, athletic group. It requires a bit of effort but you will get in touch with a broadened you. Try reading " Feel the Fear and Do It Anyway " by Jeffereys and take a risk or two. You can do it. Anyone can. Take Care, Cheers, Carol >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Recipes, relationships. Horoscopes, health. >Fashion, fitness. If it's about women, it's at HomeArts.com. >http://offers./click/212/0 > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 1999 Report Share Posted February 9, 1999 wrote: Original Article: /list/12-step-free/?start=2154 > I've been seriously reconsidering my AA membership. I have been paying more > and more attention in meetings and finding less and less to agree with. Most > everyone talks about god, prayer, turning it over, why they believe, derides > their own thinking, says that AA is the only way, ad nauseum in meetings, and > I can think of approaches to living that I could probably take on my own that > would do me more good than practicing the steps. One problem I have is that I > like my sponsor, and I know it will probably hurt him if I leave. Another > problem is that I don't have any friends to speak of outside the program, > besides on the internet, and it looks like I'll be back at square one with > some personal problems that have bothered me for a long time. > These are the most difficult issues to face in leaving AA, next to fear of drinking again. Before you leave, its important that YOU know you do not need the group to inspire your abstinence or sobriety. Learning AVRT is a big help with that, and some of the other alternative websites have excellent tips for staying sober or moderating. The social aspects of AA are difficult too. The reason I think AA has any success at all, especially with total down-and-outers, is the fact that there are people readily available to talk to, go to coffee with, and share on a level that simulates intimacy enough to make it much better than nothing, as long as you don't say or do anything that would bring shunning. I was very fortunate in one way, in that about the time I was leaving AA, my brother needed me to help him in his busy new office. I dealt with the public, and met and talked with normal people all day. In another aspect I made my own luck. I went out and started doing things I'd been wanting to do for awhile, joining community organizations, arts gatherings, and other projects. Eventually one of these became paying. In the process I met many normal people, and soon the phone was ringing again. It takes awhile. Also, you do not automatically lose every AA friend. I have 2 or three real AA friends left. Its better to have plenty of time to concentrate on real friendships, rather than having your time taken up with people who will abandon you if you dare break free from the collective! I don't know what to say about your sponsor. You could start by thanking him for his help, and saying you don't need a sponsor anymore, but would he mind if you came to him as a freind from time to time? Again, if he's a friend, that's what he is. If he's not, good bye! Lots o Luck http:www.zinezone.com/users/fransway ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 1999 Report Share Posted February 10, 1999 - AA uses all the typical cultic techniques of attraction. But there is an additional reason its particular " program " is successful. The AA program is a totalitarian design. America is moving rapidly in a totalitarian direction. Hence, many who adopt the totalitarian worldview of AA will find that, in contemporary America, " It works! " ---------- > From: fransway29@... > To: 12-step-freeegroups > Subject: Re: other > Date: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 1:36 AM > > wrote: > Original Article: /list/12-step-free/?start=2154 > > I've been seriously reconsidering my AA membership. I have been paying more > > and more attention in meetings and finding less and less to agree with. Most > > everyone talks about god, prayer, turning it over, why they believe, derides > > their own thinking, says that AA is the only way, ad nauseum in meetings, and > > I can think of approaches to living that I could probably take on my own that > > would do me more good than practicing the steps. One problem I have is that I > > like my sponsor, and I know it will probably hurt him if I leave. Another > > problem is that I don't have any friends to speak of outside the program, > > besides on the internet, and it looks like I'll be back at square one with > > some personal problems that have bothered me for a long time. > > > > These are the most difficult issues to face in leaving AA, next to fear of > drinking again. Before you leave, its important that YOU know you do not > need the group to inspire your abstinence or sobriety. Learning AVRT is > a big help with that, and some of the other alternative websites have > excellent tips for staying sober or moderating. > > The social aspects of AA are difficult too. The reason I think AA has any > success at all, especially with total down-and-outers, is the fact that > there are people readily available to talk to, go to coffee with, and > share on a level that simulates intimacy enough to make it much better than > nothing, as long as you don't say or do anything that would bring shunning. > > I was very fortunate in one way, in that about the time I was leaving AA, > my brother needed me to help him in his busy new office. I dealt with > the public, and met and talked with normal people all day. In another > aspect I made my own luck. I went out and started doing things I'd been > wanting to do for awhile, joining community organizations, arts gatherings, > and other projects. Eventually one of these became paying. In the process > I met many normal people, and soon the phone was ringing again. > > It takes awhile. Also, you do not automatically lose every AA friend. > I have 2 or three real AA friends left. Its better to have plenty of time > to concentrate on real friendships, rather than having your time taken up > with people who will abandon you if you dare break free from the collective! > > I don't know what to say about your sponsor. You could start by thanking > him for his help, and saying you don't need a sponsor anymore, but would he > mind if you came to him as a freind from time to time? > > Again, if he's a friend, that's what he is. If he's not, good bye! > > Lots o Luck > > > > http:www.zinezone.com/users/fransway > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Recipes, relationships. Horoscopes, health. > Fashion, fitness. If it's about women, it's at HomeArts.com. > http://offers./click/212/0 > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 1999 Report Share Posted February 10, 1999 Heidi: << I started an exercise program (just jogging outside) and stuck to it until it took. It got easier and easier, and finally became just a habit. It had tremendous benefits. My mood really improved, I slept better, etc. May not have the same effect for you, but exercising really has helped me endure some 'deep shit.' good luck>> Yeah, I run too, and it helped me a great deal. I still use drugs, but only the following ones: seratonin, endorphins, adrenaline. Exercise helps. I've been doing it for about 4 yrs. regularly. The difference in the way I feel is night & day. -Apple ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 1999 Report Share Posted February 10, 1999 Pup - Laissez faire isn't predicated on the rule of a higher power. Nor would a libertarian system orchestrate a phony drug scare that quadruples the prison population in a couple of decades. Nor would libertarians engage in forced indocrination and 'intervention' into the personal behavior of others. The OGs, by the way, were permeated with fascist thinking - it wasn't just 'one individual.' Indeed, they described their 'program' as the 'Totalitarian Plan'! AA, when it split off, backed away from some of this; it was a tactical dodge because we were then entering WWII. But today, the 12-Step Movement is really the OG reborn, and the War On Drugs is a government-orchestrated mass effort at repression and mind control. Anyway, that is how a 'laissez faire' type like Milton Friedman describes it.---------- > From: Pupship@... > To: 12-step-freeegroups > Subject: Re: other > Date: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 12:59 PM > > In a message dated 2/10/99 12:38:40 PM Central Standard Time, > PAULDIENER@... writes: > > << - AA uses all the typical cultic techniques of attraction. But > there is an additional reason its particular " program " is successful. The > AA program is a totalitarian design. America is moving rapidly in a > totalitarian direction. Hence, many who adopt the totalitarian worldview > of AA will find that, in contemporary America, " It works! " >> > > How is it a " totalitarian design, " and how is America moving in a totalitarian > direction? The fact that one person or another who was close to the beginning > of AA endorsed fascism doesn't make it so. It may lend itself easily to > totalitarian thinking, but why couldn't it just as easily lend itself to the > laissez-faire? > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > One day scientists will discover a natural > solution for hair loss. That day is here .... > Hair Genesis http://offers./click/224/0 > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 1999 Report Share Posted February 10, 1999 Heidi - school is always good, at least for some people. Check on loans, of course. I did a 'geographical move' and it didn't hurt; probably helped a little. Try to make sure you know the job market if you have little money before you jump. One tip that, for me at least, really helped a lot. I started an exercise program (just jogging outside) and stuck to it until it took. It got easier and easier, and finally became just a habit. It had tremendous benefits. My mood really improved, I slept better, etc. May not have the same effect for you, but exercising really has helped me endure some 'deep shit.' good luck ---------- > > To: 12-step-freeegroups > Subject: Re: other > Date: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 2:15 PM > > leaving is not easy. It has been 3 months now since I have left the > program,and things have gone down, down, down; but I guess it is true > you have to tear down the old foundation before building anew. > Emotionally, I am getting better and better, but my outer reality is > almost ludicrous. I have literally no money( I am a waitress, and for > the two years I was in, I did not work at any good paying jobs because > there was the 'evil' alcohol there), my car does not work, I have no > friends here, and I can no longer live with my AA roommate. I'm trying > to get to school, and my new job, and half the time I don't even have > any underwear! But, I really feel that things are going to get > better-deep down I feel it. I'm thinking of moving away from Ct.; it > really does suck here, and I don't care what they say about a > geographical cure. I would not trade this to go back to AA. But > sometimes, the environment is what needs changing and not just the > attitude. If someone is an a**hole- or a job sucks, or you love the > country and live in the city, sometimes it's really true. > > > > > ---fransway29@... wrote: > > > > wrote: > > Original Article: /list/12-step-free/?start=2154 > > > I've been seriously reconsidering my AA membership. I have been > paying more > > > and more attention in meetings and finding less and less to agree > with. Most > > > everyone talks about god, prayer, turning it over, why they > believe, derides > > > their own thinking, says that AA is the only way, ad nauseum in > meetings, and > > > I can think of approaches to living that I could probably take on > my own that > > > would do me more good than practicing the steps. One problem I > have is that I > > > like my sponsor, and I know it will probably hurt him if I leave. > Another > > > problem is that I don't have any friends to speak of outside the > program, > > > besides on the internet, and it looks like I'll be back at square > one with > > > some personal problems that have bothered me for a long time. > > > > > > > These are the most difficult issues to face in leaving AA, next to > fear of > > drinking again. Before you leave, its important that YOU know you > do not > > need the group to inspire your abstinence or sobriety. Learning > AVRT is > > a big help with that, and some of the other alternative websites have > > excellent tips for staying sober or moderating. > > > > The social aspects of AA are difficult too. The reason I think AA > has any > > success at all, especially with total down-and-outers, is the fact > that > > there are people readily available to talk to, go to coffee with, and > > share on a level that simulates intimacy enough to make it much > better than > > nothing, as long as you don't say or do anything that would bring > shunning. > > > > I was very fortunate in one way, in that about the time I was > leaving AA, > > my brother needed me to help him in his busy new office. I dealt > with > > the public, and met and talked with normal people all day. In another > > aspect I made my own luck. I went out and started doing things I'd > been > > wanting to do for awhile, joining community organizations, arts > gatherings, > > and other projects. Eventually one of these became paying. In the > process > > I met many normal people, and soon the phone was ringing again. > > > > It takes awhile. Also, you do not automatically lose every AA friend. > > I have 2 or three real AA friends left. Its better to have plenty > of time > > to concentrate on real friendships, rather than having your time > taken up > > with people who will abandon you if you dare break free from the > collective! > > > > I don't know what to say about your sponsor. You could start by > thanking > > him for his help, and saying you don't need a sponsor anymore, but > would he > > mind if you came to him as a freind from time to time? > > > > Again, if he's a friend, that's what he is. If he's not, good bye! > > > > Lots o Luck > > > > > > > > http:www.zinezone.com/users/fransway > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Recipes, relationships. Horoscopes, health. > > Fashion, fitness. If it's about women, it's at HomeArts.com. > > http://offers./click/212/0 > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 1999 Report Share Posted February 10, 1999 Apple - sounds great. Turns out nature's way works pretty well without HP. ---------- From: AppleDTP@... To: 12-step-freeegroups Subject: Re: other Date: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 9:49 PM Heidi: << I started an exercise program (just jogging outside) and stuck to it until it took. It got easier and easier, and finally became just a habit. It had tremendous benefits. My mood really improved, I slept better, etc. May not have the same effect for you, but exercising really has helped me endure some 'deep shit.' good luck>> Yeah, I run too, and it helped me a great deal. I still use drugs, but only the following ones: seratonin, endorphins, adrenaline. Exercise helps. I've been doing it for about 4 yrs. regularly. The difference in the way I feel is night & day. -Apple ------------------------------------------------------------------------ One Day Science Will Create A Natural Solution For Hairloss That day is today. HairGenesis. The world’s first naturally derived and proven treatment for Male Pattern Hairloss. Click Here: http://offers./click/217/0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 1999 Report Share Posted February 11, 1999 True on all counts, unless one selects a moral ideal within the libertarian framework as a " higher power. " In a message dated 2/11/99 1:33:11 PM Central Standard Time, PAULDIENER@... writes: << > Pup - Laissez faire isn't predicated on the rule of a higher power. Nor > would a libertarian system orchestrate a phony drug scare that quadruples > the prison population in a couple of decades. Nor would libertarians > engage in forced indocrination and 'intervention' into the personal > behavior of others. The OGs, by the way, were permeated with fascist > thinking - it wasn't just 'one individual.' Indeed, they described their > 'program' as the 'Totalitarian Plan'! AA, when it split off, backed away > from some of this; it was a tactical dodge because we were then entering > WWII. But today, the 12-Step Movement is really the OG reborn, and the War > On Drugs is a government-orchestrated mass effort at repression and mind > control. Anyway, that is how a 'laissez faire' type like Milton Friedman > describes it.---------- >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 1999 Report Share Posted February 11, 1999 In a message dated 2/9/99 8:23:20 PM Pacific Standard Time, wgt@... writes: > I feel > >like a real idiot when people say they " clued in " and left AA after > >only a few months. I I didn't really clue in. I just never fit in. Henders ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 1999 Report Share Posted February 11, 1999 In a message dated 2/10/99 9:05:25 PM Pacific Standard Time, AppleDTP@... writes: > > Yeah, I run too, and it helped me a great deal. I still use drugs, but only > the following ones: seratonin, endorphins, adrenaline. Exercise helps. I've > been doing it for about 4 yrs. regularly. The difference in the way I feel > is > night & day. > -Apple > I would have to chime in here and agree wholeheartedly. It not only helps physically (I lost 40 pound) but mentally as well. Getting out in the fresh air is one tonic that costs nothing and really works! Henders ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 1999 Report Share Posted February 11, 1999 In a message dated 2/9/99 4:42:50 PM Pacific Standard Time, joe-b@... writes: > Things will change profoundly, I think. > > Joe Berenbaum Thanks to people like you, Joe. You're one of my heroes. Henders ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 1999 Report Share Posted February 11, 1999 Hello , folks you probably no more abt codependency than I do, but I could try to send you the references from my Project. Pete ---------------------- " Never name the well from which you will not drink. " - n Zimmer Bradley PERSONALITY-DISORDERS SUPPORT/INFO LIST: http://rdz.acor.org/athenaeum/lists.phtml?personality-disorders ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 1999 Report Share Posted February 11, 1999 Nope. This is a topic I am sure you are more conversant with than am I, Pete. By all means, when you have time, send the references. Much appreciated. ---------- To: 12-step-freeegroups Subject: Re: other Date: Thursday, February 11, 1999 6:08 PM Hello , folks you probably no more abt codependency than I do, but I could try to send you the references from my Project. Pete ---------------------- " Never name the well from which you will not drink. " - n Zimmer Bradley PERSONALITY-DISORDERS SUPPORT/INFO LIST: http://rdz.acor.org/athenaeum/lists.phtml?personality-disorders ------------------------------------------------------------------------ One Day Science Will Create A Natural Solution For Hairloss That day is today. HairGenesis. The world’s first naturally derived and proven treatment for Male Pattern Hairloss. Click Here: http://offers./click/217/0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 1999 Report Share Posted February 11, 1999 <<I experienced the EXACT same feelings you are going through right now when I left AA after 4-1/2 years. I had no money, no real job prospects, and although San Francisco was a big city, I couldn't go anywhere without running into another AA. >> Hi : Would you be interested in sending me a file with your story, so I can post it on my www.AAdeprogramming.com site which will be up this weekend? I want to offer solutions for people like you & I to help them make the transition into the normal world. I'm especially interested in how you unbrainwashed yourself... Lemme know.. Apple ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 1999 Report Share Posted February 12, 1999 wrote: Original Article: /list/12-step-free/?start=2168 Whoa! I have this overwhelming sense of deja vu, here! I experienced the EXACT same feelings you are going through right now when I left AA after 4-1/2 years. I had no money, no real job prospects, and although San Francisco was a big city, I couldn't go anywhere without running into another AA. I did end up doing a " geographic " . It was the best move I could have made, really. I moved to a town where I knew absolutely nobody; I had to rebuild my entire social life from the ground up. It was terribly lonely for the first year, and if I'd known the job market was going to be as bad as it was, I might have planned differently. After four years here, I can honestly say that I made the right choice, however--I got to remake myself in my own image, and I was able to make friends with a pretty cool bunch of people just by showing up for Saturday-morning coffee at the same place every weekend. I have told my friends about my time in AA, and none of them can figure out why I ever thoughtI was an alcoholic. I remember being INCREDIBLY depressed as I was leaving AA. I couldn't continue in it, yet I hadn't really found anything to replace it (although school helped). I felt cut off from the entire human race, and I ended up contacting a couple of people I used to drink with in my bad old days, mainly because I could recall better times with them than I could with my AA cronies. They've turned out to be great friends, after all; they remember me at my worst, and forgive it. If you really think moving elsewhere will help, it probably will. Even if adjusting to a new place is tough, it beats having to deal with the same old shit--the expectations people can load on you. If you want to be New and Impoved, it really helps to get as far away from the old patterns as possible. So, if you think it right, GO FOR IT. Trust yourself. All the Best--- Mabee. > leaving is not easy. It has been 3 months now since I have left the > program,and things have gone down, down, down; but I guess it is true > you have to tear down the old foundation before building anew. > Emotionally, I am getting better and better, but my outer reality is > almost ludicrous. I have literally no money( I am a waitress, and for > the two years I was in, I did not work at any good paying jobs because > there was the 'evil' alcohol there), my car does not work, I have no > friends here, and I can no longer live with my AA roommate. I'm trying > to get to school, and my new job, and half the time I don't even have > any underwear! But, I really feel that things are going to get > better-deep down I feel it. I'm thinking of moving away from Ct.; it > really does suck here, and I don't care what they say about a > geographical cure. I would not trade this to go back to AA. But > sometimes, the environment is what needs changing and not just the > attitude. If someone is an a**hole- or a job sucks, or you love the > country and live in the city, sometimes it's really true. > > > > > ---fransway29@... wrote: > > > > wrote: > > Original Article: /list/12-step-free/?start=2154 > > > I've been seriously reconsidering my AA membership. I have been > paying more > > > and more attention in meetings and finding less and less to agree > with. Most > > > everyone talks about god, prayer, turning it over, why they > believe, derides > > > their own thinking, says that AA is the only way, ad nauseum in > meetings, and > > > I can think of approaches to living that I could probably take on > my own that > > > would do me more good than practicing the steps. One problem I > have is that I > > > like my sponsor, and I know it will probably hurt him if I leave. > Another > > > problem is that I don't have any friends to speak of outside the > program, > > > besides on the internet, and it looks like I'll be back at square > one with > > > some personal problems that have bothered me for a long time. > > > > > > > These are the most difficult issues to face in leaving AA, next to > fear of > > drinking again. Before you leave, its important that YOU know you > do not > > need the group to inspire your abstinence or sobriety. Learning > AVRT is > > a big help with that, and some of the other alternative websites have > > excellent tips for staying sober or moderating. > > > > The social aspects of AA are difficult too. The reason I think AA > has any > > success at all, especially with total down-and-outers, is the fact > that > > there are people readily available to talk to, go to coffee with, and > > share on a level that simulates intimacy enough to make it much > better than > > nothing, as long as you don't say or do anything that would bring > shunning. > > > > I was very fortunate in one way, in that about the time I was > leaving AA, > > my brother needed me to help him in his busy new office. I dealt > with > > the public, and met and talked with normal people all day. In another > > aspect I made my own luck. I went out and started doing things I'd > been > > wanting to do for awhile, joining community organizations, arts > gatherings, > > and other projects. Eventually one of these became paying. In the > process > > I met many normal people, and soon the phone was ringing again. > > > > It takes awhile. Also, you do not automatically lose every AA friend. > > I have 2 or three real AA friends left. Its better to have plenty > of time > > to concentrate on real friendships, rather than having your time > taken up > > with people who will abandon you if you dare break free from the > collective! > > > > I don't know what to say about your sponsor. You could start by > thanking > > him for his help, and saying you don't need a sponsor anymore, but > would he > > mind if you came to him as a freind from time to time? > > > > Again, if he's a friend, that's what he is. If he's not, good bye! > > > > Lots o Luck > > > > > > > > http:www.zinezone.com/users/fransway > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Recipes, relationships. Horoscopes, health. > > Fashion, fitness. If it's about women, it's at HomeArts.com. > > http://offers./click/212/0 > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 14, 1999 Report Share Posted February 14, 1999 In a message dated 2/12/99 12:04:45 AM Pacific Standard Time, babystrange@... writes: > I felt cut off from the entire human race, and I ended up contacting a > couple of people I used to drink with in my bad old days, mainly because I > could recall better times with them than I could with my AA cronies. They've > turned out to be great friends, after all; they remember me at my worst, and > forgive it. , That is one of the things about AA that turned me off from it. They were always telling me that my friends " weren't really your friends, they're just drinking buddies. " I just couldn't buy that; couldn't -- didn't want to -- believe it. AA encouraged (insisted, really) me to turn my back on good people who I had know for years and who had been through so much with me. Sure they, drank and used, but they were not just some people whom I had happened to run into at a bar down a the street a few weeks earlier. AA made me feel like I had to chose between sobriety and my friends. So, ultimately I chose my friends. I felt like I really had no other choice. To me it was just a wrenching decision that emotionally really took a toll on me. Now I know I made the right decision, but it was an agonizing time for me. That " them-or-us " attitude is where the destructive, cult-like agenda of AA is at its worst. Another relationship-damaging theory of AA is the " enabler " routine. " Don't `enable' your friends/spouse. Turn your back on them. " I saw AA break up my good friends' 20-year marriage when this happened. Their kids are still suffering emotionally because of it. Their now-grown daughters are now unwed mothers, raising children themselves because they are so " relationship damaged, " I guess you could call it. In my opinion -- and I know/knew these folks well -- AA tore apart that family, and generations will suffer for it. This could well turn into a a rant so I guess I'll sign off and take my anger out on Duke Nukem's enemies. Henders ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 14, 1999 Report Share Posted February 14, 1999 I> > < left AA after 4-1/2 years. I had no money, no real job prospects, and > although San Francisco was a big city, I couldn't go anywhere without running > into another AA. , I am just curious -- looking back now, do you think those " run-ins' were purely coincidental? Henders ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.