Re: love

[Guest guest]

Leona -my thoughts and prayers are with you as you struggle with your brothers illness. The love you spoke of is the most important thing for him now and the support of all his loved ones. I know what a difficult time this must be and will be thinking of you.

Myrtle

Love

This is Valentine's Day and I saw a very special love to-day. My brother was diagnosed with leukemia two days ago. It is the rapid kind and he hasn't been given long. To-day when we went up to the hospital his wife, three daughters, two sons -in laws and himself were in tears. His sons-in-law were standing on each side of his bed,each holding a hand. It was so touching and you could feel the love in the room.

Please pray for him. He just come through big time surgery for two aneurysms and we cant believe this is now happening,

Love to all Leona

____________________________________________________ IncrediMail - Email has finally evolved - Click Here

[Guest guest]

That surely explains his weight loss and unrelenting

> diahhrea, but why did they not catch this

> sooner...since he has been using the revolving door at

> the ER over the last year....it is because when you go

> to the ER for a specific reason, or, you have a

> chronic illness....they are not looking beyond the

> scope of that.

,

Iam sorry to hear of your brothers suffering and recent diagnosis.

Your brother should have gotten care a year ago and he probably could

not get in to see anyone(because he is on Medicaid). Its true you

have to get nasty if you want good care. Demand it!. In the VA system

that is what you have to do if you dont want to die. You have to yell

and you have to scream and sometimes cry to get decent care, As I

have had to do recently with my eczema. I had to pull my pants down

to my ankles and demand to see a specialist. I told them I would not

leave until I got the appointment.

Andi

[Guest guest]

Yep.

I'm an only child, my parents are BPD and NPD, my grandmother is BPD but closer

to functional (but thought that making me scared was funny), and I always loved

my grandfather and I think he has moments of love, but then again, he also

killed one of my cats... a memory that just came back to me recently. Moments

that I remember as loving seem fleeting and appear in larger contexts that make

no sense as being related to love. I do have one cousin who I love but who also

has problems of his own.

I wonder how we in our own lives are able to make sense of this deficiency and

discover what love is if we never got the consistent love we deserved as

children?

Still, my parents are the only people in my life who I can't detect feelings of

love for.

>

> Hi all,

>

> I've been pondering something.  I wonder if anyone else has thought about this

or is in a similar situation.  Any thoughts?

>

> I realized it wasn't just my relationship with bpd mom that was messed up. 

All of the relationships in my FOO that anyone had involved a mentally ill or

disordered person.  My father's mother was schizophrenic.  His dad was no picnic

either, but I was 7 when he had a stroke and stopped being able to talk.  Kind

of hard to say much about him except he was mean to my dad.  My mother's mother

was bpd or npd or both.  I don't know what was wrong with my dad, but he was

abusive to me and my sister in a pretty serious way.  My sister is bpd according

to me.  She is my only sibling.  We weren't close to my aunts or to my

cousins--they lived far away and I hardly saw them.

>

> The thing that's been on my mind is I didn't just grow up with people who

didn't love me.  I grew up with people who couldn't love anyone.  There were no

relationships of genuine care in my family at all.  There's something about that

that's kind of weird and troubling.  I mean, probably the only creatures with a

genuine capacity to care in my immediate family were the cats.

>

> Ashana

>

>

> Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, on

http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/

>

>

[Guest guest]

Yes,Ashana,I've thought about this many times.Something that was a constant in

my FOO for as long as I can remember was this sense I had of having to

continually " establish a relationship " with them--which I discovered after I

left home isn't normal: first you do establish a relationship and after that you

HAVE one...in my FOO there was never a definite sense of actually HAVING a

relationship--it was more like strangers interacting--as if none of us had ever

properly bonded and the " bonds " we did have were tenuous and had to be almost

artificially remade again and again,like catching up with a casual acquaintance

you rarely see.

Some examples...

My paternal grandmother.I don't know what was " wrong " with her.She didn't have

BPD.She was a widow who lived alone and was always adamant about not " ever

having anyone live with me. " She meant that completely.When one of my aunts was

having problems in her marriage (her husband had become physically abusive) and

called my grandmother in tears to ask if she could stay with her for two weeks

while she decided whether or not to stay in the marriage,my grandmother refused

and told her pointblank, " You know I won't have anyone live with me. "

This aunt wasn't a moocher and wouldn't have over stayed her welcome.She just

needed a brief separation to clear her head.My grandmother seemed to have no

compassion for her situation,although she had before then always claimed to like

this aunt very much.But her " affection " didn't include supporting her and being

there for her when she needed it.

My paternal grandmother did the same thing to me when my parents threw me out

of the house over an argument they started about how I walked through the

house.They accused me of being " angry " when I swore I practically tip toed past

them and told me me to get out if I was so miserable.I was sixteen.I had already

stayed with friends for as long as I could and was at the point where I needed a

stable place to live.It was hard to attend school and keep my grades up when I

wasn't sure where I was going to stay the next day.She told me the same exact

thing she'd told my aunt when I went to her for help: " Well,you know,I never

have anyone live with me. "

I had to offer to do all of her housework in exchange for staying with

her,like I was a stranger off the street begging for a roof over my head.And

then she acted like she was doing me a huge favor,while I did all her housework

and she sat back and ordered me around.She never once asked me why my parents

had thrown me out or how I had coped before I came to her or how I was feeling.

The eldest daughter of another aunt from fada's side of the family ran away

from home at eighteen.About a year afterward this aunt was downtown shopping and

a young woman shyly asked her for the time.The aunt answered and kept

going.Several hours later this aunt realized that the young woman was her own

daughter.My cousin had asked her for the time to see how my aunt would respond

to her--like a stranger,not daring to just say " Hi Mom " .My aunt's reaction to

this episode was thank god nobody I know saw that happen,what would they have

thought.Instead of oh my god what is wrong with me that I didn't even recognize

my own daughter and how tragic that she felt she had to ask me for the time.

Nada's side of the family was like that too.I never felt like I really knew

my maternal grandparents.There was no feeling of emotional connection.I could

talk to them and still not feel like we were really having a conversation.All of

their interactions with me and with eachother were very superficial.We never

discussed anything real or honest.I always had the feeling that anything honest

was somehow taboo.

I have a photo of me from when I was seven with my brother (undiagnosed

but I think has NPD) and my grandparents and mother and maternal uncle.The

adults are all smiling fake smiles and not looking directly at the camera.Their

eyes are all empty.My brother is hamming it up with a toothy grin that's more of

a grimace.I'm the only one staring directly at the camera,a serious gaze with

some kind of thought in my eyes.It looks like I'm the only one in that photo who

is emotionally present and thinking and acknowledging the presence of whoever it

was who took that picture.The adults and my brother all look like imitations of

people getting their picture taken,like actors.That photo is one of the ones I

have that reminds me of how it really was in my FOO,those empty eyes and the

pretending to be happy.Our interactions with eachother were forced like the

smiles in that picture--there was no genuine sense of togetherness or love.

When the uncle in that picture got divorced my grandfather had a nervous

breakdown because the divorce destroyed the family image of perfection and he

couldn't handle worrying about what other people would think of us.This was in

the 70s when divorce was hardly unheard of but my grandfather was convinced it

would destroy my uncle's career and reputation.If we weren't " happy " according

to my FOO,we were pariahs.But none of them really cared enough for eachother as

individuals for any of us to know the real happiness that comes from being

accepted and honored and supported.It was all about appearances and the

impression others had of us.Feelings of hurt or dissatisfaction with the FOO

status quo were such a threat that the person expressing them (such as myself or

my cousin) was shunned ignored smeared and made to feel like a monster for being

so honest.

That certainly isn't love.

I often felt growing up that the most compassionate person in my family was

our dog.

--

>

> Hi all,

>

> I've been pondering something.  I wonder if anyone else has thought about this

or is in a similar situation.  Any thoughts?

>

> I realized it wasn't just my relationship with bpd mom that was messed up. 

All of the relationships in my FOO that anyone had involved a mentally ill or

disordered person.  My father's mother was schizophrenic.  His dad was no picnic

either, but I was 7 when he had a stroke and stopped being able to talk.  Kind

of hard to say much about him except he was mean to my dad.  My mother's mother

was bpd or npd or both.  I don't know what was wrong with my dad, but he was

abusive to me and my sister in a pretty serious way.  My sister is bpd according

to me.  She is my only sibling.  We weren't close to my aunts or to my

cousins--they lived far away and I hardly saw them.

>

> The thing that's been on my mind is I didn't just grow up with people who

didn't love me.  I grew up with people who couldn't love anyone.  There were no

relationships of genuine care in my family at all.  There's something about that

that's kind of weird and troubling.  I mean, probably the only creatures with a

genuine capacity to care in my immediate family were the cats.

>

> Ashana

>

>

> Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, on

http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/

>

>

[Guest guest]

I so relate to the " what would other people think " that you talk about. My

family is very much like that...mostly coming from nada. I was forced to get

married at 17 because " what would other people think " if I moved 2 hours away

and was sharing an apartment with my boyfriend and another girl (with my own

room by the way). My nada has tried for the past year to force my little sister

to get married because she had a baby and " what would other people think " of

that. Thankfully my sister has not given in to nada and fadas pressure tactics

because I have been there to counter all of their b.s. and went NC with nada

after telling her what I thought of what she was doing to my sister. I wish I

would have had someone to stand up for me back then but no one in my entire

family did. They just stood by and let it happen without saying a word and then

told me after how wrong it was what my nada did to me. Ironically, my nada will

rage and scream so loud that you can literally hear her down the block and never

cared " what would other people think " about that. Apparently, that mantra only

applies to others and not nada.

> >

> > Hi all,

> >

> > I've been pondering something.  I wonder if anyone else has thought about

this or is in a similar situation.  Any thoughts?

> >

> > I realized it wasn't just my relationship with bpd mom that was messed up. 

All of the relationships in my FOO that anyone had involved a mentally ill or

disordered person.  My father's mother was schizophrenic.  His dad was no picnic

either, but I was 7 when he had a stroke and stopped being able to talk.  Kind

of hard to say much about him except he was mean to my dad.  My mother's mother

was bpd or npd or both.  I don't know what was wrong with my dad, but he was

abusive to me and my sister in a pretty serious way.  My sister is bpd according

to me.  She is my only sibling.  We weren't close to my aunts or to my

cousins--they lived far away and I hardly saw them.

> >

> > The thing that's been on my mind is I didn't just grow up with people who

didn't love me.  I grew up with people who couldn't love anyone.  There were no

relationships of genuine care in my family at all.  There's something about that

that's kind of weird and troubling.  I mean, probably the only creatures with a

genuine capacity to care in my immediate family were the cats.

> >

> > Ashana

> >

> >

> > Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, on

http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Dame,you were forced to get married at 17 because of what " other people would

think " ?!!! Did your family consider at all if you were ready to make that kind

of commitment at that age ( and/or if your boyfriend was)--or did they just

force you into doing it because it would look " proper " to " other people " ?

Have you ever seen the movie " Blast From The Past " about a father who

convinces himself that the " commies " dropped " the bomb " so he builds an

underground shelter and houses himself and his son and wife in it until the son

is in his thirties and decides to go up into the world to see how society has

changed or survived since " the bomb " was dropped?

I think that's a pretty funny movie--the parents are dysfunctional but

loving and the son has been so isolated from his peers growing up in that bomb

shelter,he has little clue when he goes out into the world...but anyway there's

a scene in that movie when the son has to leave his parents again to go " back

up " and he can't fully explain why so he says to his father, " You're just going

to have to trust me on this one,Dad " and the father automatically

responds, " Well,in that case son,of course. "

It's like our parents are the exact opposite of that.They don't trust

us.Trusting us to do the right thing,to make the right decisions,to police

ourselves..is either something they can't stand (because it drains away the

power they have over us) or something they cannot do.

I have wondered if their worrying about " what other people will think " is

a covering excuse for their deeper need to control us or a way to deny to

themselves that they don't trust us at all.

And that they do know deep down (but deny) that they are themselves a mess

out of control and they don't really trust themselves either so the easy way out

of that is concern with other peoples' opinions of them...marriage for example

being generally seen as a badge of " normalcy " ,so it's easy to say " I'm married "

and to then be accepted by society as " normal " and functional.

It's good you're backing up your sister and helping her to keep herself

above or beyond what is really just another species of enmeshment--the " do as we

say and do as we do " claptrap.That sounds like a definite reason to make a stand

of NC: I will not sit idly by and let you do to her what you did to me.Good for

you!

The weird thing about my grandfather's distress over my uncle's divorce

was that he didn't say or think something like, " Oh,son,it just tears me up that

you're so unhappy in your marriage that you are now resorting to divorce.I never

would have wanted you to be in such a painful dilemma.I'm so sorry. "

Instead,his " reasoning " was: " Don't you dare divorce,people will think

badly of us.Just deny your feelings and keep up a pretence of normalcy and

everything will be fine. "

Emotional honesty is entirely lacking with them.

--

> >

> > Yes,Ashana,I've thought about this many times.Something that was a constant

in my FOO for as long as I can remember was this sense I had of having to

continually " establish a relationship " with them--which I discovered after I

left home isn't normal: first you do establish a relationship and after that you

HAVE one...in my FOO there was never a definite sense of actually HAVING a

relationship--it was more like strangers interacting--as if none of us had ever

properly bonded and the " bonds " we did have were tenuous and had to be almost

artificially remade again and again,like catching up with a casual acquaintance

you rarely see.

[Guest guest]

--

Unfortunately yes I was. When this all went down with my little sister I found

out that my nada told her that I ran away and got married. I was so pissed.

Ummm yeah, at 17 you have to have your parents sign the papers in order to get

married because you are still a minor!! My sister was like, OMG. She had no

idea that our nada was such a liar or what really happened. My nada's best

friend, years after the fact, actually stood up for me and told my nada to her

face (in front of my entire family) that she couldn't believe what she did to me

and my nada cut her out of her life. They were friends for 30+ years. Her

friend was at a family function with us when this happened and my nada just left

her there with no way home. My aunt ended up taking her home. Her friend ended

up dying not long after that and my nada didn't even go to her funeral and to

this day 15 years later will not speak about her.

She could not stand someone speaking the truth and calling her on her b.s. No,

no one ever considered what I wanted or what I was able to handle or my bf. All

nada would say was that she would not have a slut for a daughter and what would

other people think of me being a whore living with my boyfriend. My nada called

his mom and basically bullied her into it. My bf's mom knew that I was abused,

knew that my mom was refusing to sign for my student loans, and had drained my

bank account of my life savings, disabled my car, and basically was holding me

hostage. His mom thought that agreeing to it would help me get away from her.

In her own way, she was trying to help me get out of that situation. I only

found that out recently when I ran into my ex after many years.

My nada has never considered what my sister wants, her bf wants, or what they

can handle. She does not care. It's all about what she wants, period. And

that was the final straw for me. I had somehow hoped that she had learned her

lesson with me and was just too proud to admit it. But now I know that its just

not true and even after me going NC she still is trying to pressure my sister to

get married. My sister got engaged to shut her up. They've been engaged for

about a year now.

I've never seen that movie, but I've heard of it. Sounds really creepy.

> > >

> > > Yes,Ashana,I've thought about this many times.Something that was a

constant in my FOO for as long as I can remember was this sense I had of having

to continually " establish a relationship " with them--which I discovered after I

left home isn't normal: first you do establish a relationship and after that you

HAVE one...in my FOO there was never a definite sense of actually HAVING a

relationship--it was more like strangers interacting--as if none of us had ever

properly bonded and the " bonds " we did have were tenuous and had to be almost

artificially remade again and again,like catching up with a casual acquaintance

you rarely see.

>