Re: Kayleigh on Quakerism, spirituality

[Guest guest]

Hi Kayleigh

>

> I'm sorry I didn't reply to this earlier, but I've been pretty busy, and

then my life was interrupted because I broke my leg. >

Sorry to hear abt this - hope it's healing ok. funnily enough, when i said

i was dismayed at addiction being called a disability or a disease, a guy

on addict-l mockingly asked what i would call a broken arm!

i was amazed and disgusted he could trivialize ny opinion so - presumably

*he* wouldnt call it a disability (perhaps temporary i guess) or a disease,

so in fact he rather proves my point. anyway:

> > > >> There is a small school of thought that holds that spirituality is

a > >large part of recovery from anything. There is also a school of

thought > >that uses methods very similar to NLP, visualization types of

things, but > >not as refined as NLP. It is not just a question of

following the doctor's > >orders.

funnily enough, i visited a friend who had recovered from cancer recently

and when i congratulated him he said " I just did as I was told " .

> I do not have a definition for

spirituality here. I am simply repeating from stuff I have read. I

suspect that most people's definitions of spirituality vary wildly from one

another's.

Usually it means " my religion which i wont admit is a religion, so i'll

call it spirituality. " of course what it is used to mean all different

things, but if you dont say what is meant by " spirituality " - what is the

point of mentioning that there is a school of thought that says its part of

recovery? what value is that info if you cant say what it is?

> >Were you in a 12-step cancer support

group? if it wasnt, what the bloody > >hell are they doing telling you

whether you have cancer or not? > > > I was not in a 12 step cancer support

group, don't know if such exist. The support group I attended taught

coping skills, and we all graduated after 10 or 12 weeks. I am talking

about what people in AA said to me.

So these AA-holes (sorry, but the hyposcrisy makes me very angry) who

claim not to play doctor and not even tell you you are alcoholic, tell you,

the recoverer from cancer, that you still have it. of course, these ppl

were " only speaking for themselves " - but if they can have the cheek to

talk like that abt cancer, they certainly will have it to talk to

another abt 'alcoholism' like that too.

> > >this raises an interesting point tho - it seems to be the norm to

describe > >recovered cancer patients as " in remission " . this is probably

the model > >that encourages that thinking abt addiction. Cancer does

reoccur, but is > >anything gained by viewing recovered ppl as merely " in

remission " ? if no > >therapy of any kind is being applied, in what sense is

it helpful?

I am curious abt this. I dont know if it *did* influence the model of

addiction - it's an interesting question.

> > > I am not very knowledgeable, medically, but I think that

when people are in remission, they still have symptoms. The disease has

simply not progressed.

Nope. Not my understanding. not for chemical dependence/abuse anyway - for

Full Remission, you must be sypmptom free. The DSM doesnt give any clear

indication when " Sustained Full Remission " should be considered " cured " -

perhaps because they wanted to give the Disease Model a loophole to

continue dxing their patients as only " Full Remission " indefinitely.

> When people talk about recurrence, it simply means

that the first treatment didn't get rid of it. It doesn't recur, it was

there all along and flares up again. I don't think this has anything to do

with the 12 step model, tho I agree it is somewhat misleading.

I dont think so - I think the notion is that the cancer is only in

remission even if completely zapped - if it recurs, fresh tumors have

appeared without any being left from the last time.

> In my experience, people who treat cancer believe that they heal their

patients, no matter whether they're surgeons, or technicians who manipulate

radiation machines. This is very different from a 12 step model.

Yep, absolutely. also, they take more responsibilty for whether the patient

recovers or not. the 12-step ppl, both XA and professional, like to take

the credit for successes but blame the sufferer if they dont get well. I'm

repreatedly harangued abt how " anyone can get well in AA, and those who

dont need to take responsibility for themselves " - missing what to me is

simple logic is that the extent to which AA can take credit for success it

must also take for failure.

>Well, Pete, I

was not talking about suicide.

I realize this - but it comes into the picture, because imho unless society

helps ppl off themselves if they want to, it cant make demands of ppl

either - society cant make demands of me unless it gives me a method of

removing myself from it - but i know of no society anywhere that will allow

euthanasia on totally psychological grounds, and prescious few on physical.

> I was talking about doing no > >harm. It

seems to me that if someone realizes they have an emotional > >disorder, it

is possible to recover.

Doesnt follow - you knew you had cancer, but you still needed treatment for

it, and if there werent any, you might have died. knowing you are ill

doesnt mean that you must always be able to overcome it. The immune system

of an AIDS patient " knows " it has been infected, but the immune system is

the very thing that is attacked by it, and its ability to fight back

overwhelmed. similarly, with psychological disorders, the person's

" resistance " to the illness is affected.

If the person is well enough to recover, then imho they'll got for it,

by definition - they wont need any censure form others for not doing so to

spur them on. in fact, coercion mighty make it harder for them. I go for

the ian thing - the more I accept the person for who they are *now*,

warts 'n' all, the more likely they will heal.

I do agree abt not hurting others tho - one does have a duty to avoid that.

Perhaps if ppl were more accepting of euthanasia, then ppl would be more

accepting of psychologically-motivated suicide and less hurt if it took

place?

P.

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Cool Briton

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