Re: Steppers lurking

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/8/98 10:17:04 PM Central Standard Time,

kenr1@... writes:

> In any case, I wanted to open this for discussion. This is your list.

> What do you think best?

Here's my quick 2 cents: (Like it carries a lot of weight since I virtually

never post but anyhow....)

I don't have a problem with steppers being on the list as long as they respect

the format and goals of the list. There is nothing wrong with *healthy*

discussion (not like the ng) between opposing groups but this should not be a

place for 12 stepping. People should feel free to come here and post about

problems with the steps and learn about alternatives. They cannot do this if

they are afraid of being attacked by those " carrying the message. "

I vote that we allow steppers *if* they can behave and if they try to

" recruit " people, boot 'em.

Kim

______________________________________________________________________

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[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/8/1998 11:17:03 PM Eastern Standard Time,

kenr1@... writes:

> Hello everyone,

>

> The following post about steppers responding _en masse_ to a post on

> this list concerns me greatly. What might have happened if someone who

> had just joined the list after leaving AA and was on shaky emotional

> ground? What would have ten messages from groupers insisting how wise

> and loving they are while attempting to undermine the " escapee " ?

>

> The title of the list is 12 Step Free. Perhaps I've been too lax

> regarding a couple of steppers who were posting here before, perhaps

> not. However, I do not think this is a proper place for the groupers to

> be surreptitiously trying to " carry the message " to anyone expressing

> having a problem re: the groups.

>

> Most certainly, there is no way to keep steppers from lurking and the

> postings on the list secret. However, I'm not sure it wouldn't be proper

> to ban any stepper that tries to use this list to do stepwork, at least

> surreptitiously. What they are doing kind of strikes me as vultures

> circling for the kill.

>

> In any case, I wanted to open this for discussion. This is your list.

> What do you think best?

>

> Ken Ragge

Ken,

I have no problem with steppers contributing to this list as long as they do

not disrupt it and act in the manner that has become the norm for arf12s. It

is a quiet list most of the time, and I really don't foresee that happening.

As for the post of Ron's. Please realize that it was not his girlfriend that

asked for information from non-steppers, he was solicitating that non-steppers

do a non-stepper version of the 12th step--something I think is rather absurd,

myself. Perhaps he didn't realize that the list is not a completely private

affair, and that anyone, meaning non-subscribers, can read the archives. He

published his girlfriend's email addy when he requested that non-steppers

solicit her. Those steppers that emailed her may not even be subscribers.

Perhaps something could be stated about the fact that what is written in this

list is not exactly private information in the letter of introduction you send

out to new subscribers. I have only been online a year and a half; I am just

learning some of this stuff myself. I don't think that I initially understood

that email lists had publically assessable archives.

I don't see how you can monitor and exclude steppers from a list unless they

introduce themselves as such, and I have yet to see that happen on this list

or xaa. --oh, yeah, there was that guy that worked as a therapist that we all

pretty much assumed was a stepper on xaa for a while. I guess for the most

part, I just don't see this as a problem other than making certain new

subscribers are aware of the reality of email lists including such things as

archives, etc. as I mentioned above.

That's my 2¢.

Bette

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[Guest guest]

Hi Ken,

I don't like the idea of steppers writing anything on our list. That's why I

quit posting on the newsgroup; I couldn't take the harassment. I also am

paranoid enough after my experiences with them to be fearful of being " baited "

by steppers, and that makes me reluctant to write anything in response to some

interesting discussions that take place on our list.

These people are religious zealots and as thus, they are scary in their

determination to " save " free-thinking people. I don't like the idea of

censorship, but on the other hand, I don't go to their meetings or post to

their NGs telling them they are crazy and full of s**t, either. I think

everyone should just " live and let live, " but of course that is not their

style.

Thanks

" Henders "

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[Guest guest]

Ken R wrote

>Hello everyone,

>

>The following post about steppers responding _en masse_ to a post on

>this list concerns me greatly. What might have happened if someone who

>had just joined the list after leaving AA and was on shaky emotional

>ground? What would have ten messages from groupers insisting how wise

>and loving they are while attempting to undermine the " escapee " ?

>

>The title of the list is 12 Step Free. Perhaps I've been too lax

>regarding a couple of steppers who were posting here before, perhaps

>not. However, I do not think this is a proper place for the groupers to

>be surreptitiously trying to " carry the message " to anyone expressing

>having a problem re: the groups.

>

>Most certainly, there is no way to keep steppers from lurking and the

>postings on the list secret. However, I'm not sure it wouldn't be proper

>to ban any stepper that tries to use this list to do stepwork, at least

>surreptitiously. What they are doing kind of strikes me as vultures

>circling for the kill.

>

>In any case, I wanted to open this for discussion. This is your list.

>What do you think best?

>

>Ken Ragge

>

>Ron Septimus wrote:

>>

>> To All,

>>

>> I posted a message asking that anyone that had some advice and/or stories

>regarding the AA cult and how they escaped and why to please foward it to a

>specific address, so that it might help a certain person in my life. Well

>instead this person recieved approx. 10 responses from AA members. These weak,

>poor pathetic, closed minded, mislead sheep. Tried everything from down right

>vulgar words to their usual slogan therapy in hopes that they could save this

>person from being able to lead a normal life with her family.

>>

>> Please be aware that we are being watched by these

>> sick individuals.

>>

>> May their HIGHER POWER HAVE MERCY ON THIER GOD AS THEY UNDERSTAND OR

>UNDERSTOOD HIM.

>>

>> Hello - IF ANY OF YOU AAer's Have anything to say

>> be brave enough to email me @ RSeptimus@...

>>

Hi Ken

My feelings on this are much the same as Kim's and Bette's. I too

welcome healthy discussion here, even if I don't necessarily agree with

the views expressed.

Since I've subscribed to this list, most of the posts have been

reasonable, non-abusive and stimulating. If that respectful tone

changed, or if too many steppers flooded the list with their posts, my

position would be different.

The incident which triggered this is not a good one to pull the plug on

anyone. I have plenty to say on the negative effect AA had on my

marriage. But sending an unsolicited e-mail to a stepper seemed to me

to be counterproductive and ill-mannered. It doesn't surprise me that

steppers took the opportunity to jump in and meddle in RSeptimus'

relationship. That's the way they dealt with my marriage when I was in

AA.

Best wishes

--

, the one from England

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[Guest guest]

In a message dated 98-11-09 13:50:25 EST, you write:

<< I also am

paranoid enough after my experiences with them to be fearful of being

" baited "

by steppers, and that makes me reluctant to write anything in response to

some

interesting discussions that take place on our list. >>

I know exactly what you are talking about because I have had similar problems

happen on other lists. I would be very clear and post things that I knew to be

objective truth and would be baited by people trying to make excuses for the

people who wanted to believe lies.

Robin s

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[Guest guest]

Hi Ken and all

I'm glad youve raised this Ken, as I was very upset by the

JB episode here.

Your title is interesting. as you yourself say, it's

virtually impossible to stop steppers lurking, unless you

subject ppl to a McCarthyite " Are you now, or have you ever

been, a member of Alcoholics Anonymous? " type

interrogation, and that of course, would achieve nothing

anyway.

I note with pleasure the responsible attititude of in

his post. I dont know if you can really consider yourself a

full member if you have no wish to disengage from AA, but

you respect this list and hence that's cool.

Perhaps we need a kind of " Minus 3 " tradition, with " open "

and " closed " loops, honor bound as Tradition 3 is?

XA trolls can be booted of course, but it is harder to deal

with archive raiders and harvesters.

I also thought it was inappropriate to ask ppl to intervene

to persuade a third party to quit AA, and it's ironic that

the AA's closed in to complete the job, but i understand

there wasnt a single 12sf who wrote to this third party.

that says something i think. I even thought that that

request might be an AA troll in itself!

I dont know if the plea was posted on other forums, but if

all 10 of those AA posters got the addy from here, it is

alarming that there could be that many lurkers here who

chose to pounce in this fashion. these ppl could easily

close in on ambivalent ppl here even *without* any

invitation from anybody. For this reason, I recommend that

the archives are owner only so that addys cant be

harvested. if someone wants to view the archive, then they

can write Ken and he can decide how he should play it.

regarding trolls on the list itself, I would like you to

see you being tough Ken. We seem to have had some of that

recently. Also I think JB should have ben at least

moderated or even booted - his views were almost identical

to an AA on addict-l of 35 years standing.

When ppl break free of cults they are very vulnerable to

being drawn back in. not only that, but as ive talked abt

before, the 12SP acts like a virus with its own agenda - JB, and the " Pagan

lady " as i referred to her,

genuinely believed they were posting appropriately here. I

know some ppl still think they were, and i think theyre

mistaken.

We have to keep this place a sterile area - or rather than

a safe place to recover, this list could become a hotbed of

reinfection!

Pete Watts

----------

Whatever you may Think of Me

There Has Been and Will Be

Thought Much Worse of One

Much Better Than Me

" And Yet It does Move! "

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[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/9/1998 8:24:58 PM Eastern Standard Time,

benbradley@... writes:

<Snipped for brevity>

>

> Well, they usually don't. but apparently anyone can subscribe to this

one

> and get the whole archive. If you mean 'publically accessible to anyone who

> subscribes' then yes, I would think the list owner would be able to

> see who's sub'ed and maybe who's accessed the archives, but that might be

> like closing the barn door after the horse is gone.

> Speaking of which - I would think the archives could be turned off

> (listowner, if you can do this, please strongly consider doing so). But

> then again, anyone can subscribe and save messages. I don't think I'm

> saying anything here that at least some of the lurkers don't already know.

Hi Ben,

When I said publically, I did mean that I thought anyone online could access

them, not just subscribers. I am familiar with some other lists where this is

the case...and though I don't subscribe because I don't want all the

emails(they are busy groups), I do go and read the posts upon occasion. I

didn't realize that it was different to access the archives for this one, and

you had to sub.

Additionally, who is to know when someone subs if they are a stepper or not?

While some others may be concerned with this. I think we have to be realistic.

It is impossible to live in a bubble. I think the fact that anyone who became

abusive here would be kicked from the list is sufficient. What else do you

do....grill every subscriber for their affiliations? If they want to monitor

this list, they probably have a hotmail addy or something like that so you

have no idea who they really are to begin with. Hell, even aolers can have up

to 5 screen names with addies on one account.

I think people are unrealistic to expect an environment more sterile than this

on the internet where some really weird people play with their identities all

the time.

>

> Here's the group description on the egroups page, which I think would be

> good to include in this thread:

>

> Description:

>

> Twelve Step Free Zone is a discussion list for those who have left the

> groups or are seriously questioning the 12-step doctrine. It is also for

> those who have a loved one caught up in the step religion. The focus of

> discussion is on sharing experience with and information on the step

> groups. Perhaps our most important function is to provide the first

> place where many can dare be critical and not be accused by a

> " unanimous majority " of groupers of suffering from one " defect of

> character " or another for doing so. Although not the focus here,

> information on alternative organizations and methods of resolving

> drinking problems are available for the asking.

> Please bear in mind that any message you send to this list can be

> copied, forwarded, saved, edited, or quoted out of context. Once you

> send something to this list, it is there for anyone to see. There is no

> guarantee of privacy or anonymity on this or any other Internet mailing

> list.

>

Thanks Ben, I hadn't read this for some time now--like since I subbed. Forgot

it was as explicit as it is. It pretty much covers what I was concerned about

as good as can be expected. I guess I just think that this is all being blown

out of proportion, that's all.

Take Care,

Bette

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[Guest guest]

At 12:27 AM 11/9/98 EST, Betche2@... wrote:

>In a message dated 11/8/1998 11:17:03 PM Eastern Standard Time,

>kenr1@... writes:

>

>> Hello everyone,

>>

>> The following post about steppers responding _en masse_ to a post on

>> this list concerns me greatly. What might have happened if someone who

>> had just joined the list after leaving AA and was on shaky emotional

>> ground? What would have ten messages from groupers insisting how wise

>> and loving they are while attempting to undermine the " escapee " ?

>> In any case, I wanted to open this for discussion. This is your list.

>> What do you think best?

>>

>> Ken Ragge

>

>Ken,

>

>I have no problem with steppers contributing to this list as long as they do

>not disrupt it and act in the manner that has become the norm for arf12s. It

>is a quiet list most of the time, and I really don't foresee that happening.

>

>As for the post of Ron's. Please realize that it was not his girlfriend that

>asked for information from non-steppers, he was solicitating that

non-steppers

>do a non-stepper version of the 12th step--something I think is rather

absurd,

>myself.

Yes, others have talked about this too, and that's the feeling

I had. We don't do 'interventions', and in our case it might be called

'deprogramming'. There was a lot of 'deprogramming' to get people out of

some of the popular cults in the '70's - it was stopped for various reasons;

physically taking one away, even from a known cult, is kidnapping (a felony),

and the psychological consequences of 'deprogramming' can be as bad as the

original cult experience.

Our implied statement to such people is 'no, we won't tell you what to do,

you don't have to Turn Your Will And Your Life Over To Us or anyone else, you

can make your own decisions.'

>Perhaps he didn't realize that the list is not a completely private

>affair, and that anyone, meaning non-subscribers, can read the archives. He

I just went to http://www.eGroups.com/ to see what can and can't be done

by someone. Non-subscribers can't read the archives, but all one has to do

is subscribe and never post - the list software won't give out addresses of

lurkers. But, effectively, anyone who knows about the list can subscribe and

lurk, and never have to reveal themselves, and can harvest the addresses and

posts of all posters.

>published his girlfriend's email addy when he requested that non-steppers

>solicit her. Those steppers that emailed her may not even be subscribers.

>Perhaps something could be stated about the fact that what is written in this

>list is not exactly private information in the letter of introduction you

send

>out to new subscribers. I have only been online a year and a half; I am just

>learning some of this stuff myself. I don't think that I initially understood

>that email lists had publically assessable archives.

Well, they usually don't. but apparently anyone can subscribe to this one

and get the whole archive. If you mean 'publically accessible to anyone who

subscribes' then yes, I would think the list owner would be able to

see who's sub'ed and maybe who's accessed the archives, but that might be

like closing the barn door after the horse is gone.

Speaking of which - I would think the archives could be turned off

(listowner, if you can do this, please strongly consider doing so). But

then again, anyone can subscribe and save messages. I don't think I'm

saying anything here that at least some of the lurkers don't already know.

Here's the group description on the egroups page, which I think would be

good to include in this thread:

Description:

Twelve Step Free Zone is a discussion list for those who have left the

groups or are seriously questioning the 12-step doctrine. It is also for

those who have a loved one caught up in the step religion. The focus of

discussion is on sharing experience with and information on the step

groups. Perhaps our most important function is to provide the first

place where many can dare be critical and not be accused by a

" unanimous majority " of groupers of suffering from one " defect of

character " or another for doing so. Although not the focus here,

information on alternative organizations and methods of resolving

drinking problems are available for the asking.

Please bear in mind that any message you send to this list can be

copied, forwarded, saved, edited, or quoted out of context. Once you

send something to this list, it is there for anyone to see. There is no

guarantee of privacy or anonymity on this or any other Internet mailing

list.

-----

Speech isn't free when it comes Postage Due. http://www.spamfree.org

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