Guest guest Posted June 27, 1998 Report Share Posted June 27, 1998 Hello, Cool Briton, Pete, whatever your name is, and others: I recently got the URL for the addict-l archives from one of your posts, and was very happy to get it, since I'd searched for it and been unsuccessful. And I read a bunch of stuff and it was interesting. But there's one reason that I would not want to join that list, and its initials are FG. When I have a conversation I want some give-and-take, and from what I saw, he takes up a lot of space saying very little beautifully and thinks that people who don't like AA are suffering from some sort of pathology. Working on that " pathology " would keep folks from dealing with real problems for sure. When I first found arf12s it was really refreshing, and it gave me an opportunity to get rid of some anger. Also, the people on arf12s were pragmatic -- hey, AA didn't help? Here's what did. Doesn't seem like addict-l would help with that. I am puzzled, as are you, by the virulence with which steppers defend their position. I'm puzzled by " right to lifers " who bomb abortion clinics. And, feeling particularly cynical this Saturday afternoon, I'm beginning to think that an urge for power is what's behind it all. What else have the anti-arf12s'ers been looking for -- and found? And this ties into your point about homophobia as well. I once asked a man I knew why he hated lesbians. And he said, " Any lesbian is a woman I can't control. " My interest in joining any of these groups or lists is in finding practical solutions for dealing with the various binds that 12 step programs have put me in. I'd be delighted if the whole questions of AA vs. non-AA had as little emotional baggage for me as marigolds vs. nasturtiums. That's my goal. And there's stuff I have to work through to get there, and debating with FG won't help me out. Pete, I saw your inquiry on the nlp-addict list (not sure I have the name right) about whether there was any activity. There isn't presently, but there has been in the past, and there is NO debate about AA, only about methods that work. Ask some questions there, it might spark some useful debate. Kayleigh > Hi all > > Ken and Al will have seen this: (but Al will keep a > dignified silence on it I expect) as Ken isnt very active > on addict-l these days, I have been taking on the groupers > there almost single-handed - and it's getting a little > ugly. Just recently a normally fairly quiet member has > likened me to Hitler playing with shit and now tells me to > " see a good Shrink " . Now I told someone myself he was full > of shit recently I admit, and I regret saying it, and i > later apologised. In his case he *was* a shrink, and as i > was telling him to look in the mirror, perhaps I was > suggesting *he* see a shrink! > > anyway, on that occasion, the good doctor was effectively > doing the same thing - not listening to the argument but > instead ascribing some psychopatholgical motive for my > expressing it. > > what is it with these ppl? > > one is inevitably drawn to do what they do to oneself - > ascribe their behaviour to some kind of psychopathology. > but what is it? > > i will draw on my own psychopathology while I was a > grouper. I doubted my own beliefs, but dare not let them > go. hence, i am frightened by anyone who questions them. > hence, i must silence these ppl at all costs. doubting my > own sanity perhaps, I must question that of others. > > It is like the homophobe who must try to destroy gay ppl > who force them to confront their own homosexuality - and > like homophobia, it can be dangerous to others. > > I wonder if there are occasions when groupers have been > violent to ppl who question their beliefs? Probably not, > because the religion is so pervasive that almost anyone who > has an opinion is a grouper themselves. Also, to attack > another's religion seems cruel and callous - > particularly one that has been traditionally considered > to help ppl at their lowest ebb. Ken had a surrealistic > violent fantasy made to him a few months ago on addict-l. > > It's lonely on addict-l - with Ken being being the only > outspoken rationalist (there is a woman who comes close, > but she still hasnt quite shaken off the grouper > mentality). Why not join in? though hot, *nothing* as bad > as Glenn and Reese is seen there - the pot just simmers > nicely most of the time, and extra rational input would be > very welcome - by me anyway. > > send to: > > listserv@... > > subscribe addict-l <yada yada> > > in the body. > > Would be good to see you guys there. > > Pete > ---------------------- > Cool Briton > ----- Original Message: http://www.findmail.com/list/12-step-free/?start=201 Start a FREE e-mail list at http://www.FindMail.com/ ---- Read this list on the Web at http://www.FindMail.com/list/12-step-free/ To unsubscribe, email to 12-step-free-unsubscribe@... To subscribe, email to 12-step-free-subscribe@... -- Start a FREE E-Mail List at http://makelist.com ! 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Guest guest Posted June 27, 1998 Report Share Posted June 27, 1998 > Hi all > > Ken and Al will have seen this: (but Al will keep a > dignified silence on it I expect) as Ken isnt very active > on addict-l these days, I have been taking on the groupers > there almost single-handed - and it's getting a little > ugly. Just recently a normally fairly quiet member has > likened me to Hitler playing with shit and now tells me to > " see a good Shrink " . Now I told someone myself he was full > of shit recently I admit, and I regret saying it, and i > later apologised. In his case he *was* a shrink, and as i > was telling him to look in the mirror, perhaps I was > suggesting *he* see a shrink! > > anyway, on that occasion, the good doctor was effectively > doing the same thing - not listening to the argument but > instead ascribing some psychopatholgical motive for my > expressing it. > > what is it with these ppl? > > one is inevitably drawn to do what they do to oneself - > ascribe their behaviour to some kind of psychopathology. > but what is it? > > i will draw on my own psychopathology while I was a > grouper. I doubted my own beliefs, but dare not let them > go. hence, i am frightened by anyone who questions them. > hence, i must silence these ppl at all costs. doubting my > own sanity perhaps, I must question that of others. > > It is like the homophobe who must try to destroy gay ppl > who force them to confront their own homosexuality - and > like homophobia, it can be dangerous to others. > > *A are religious denominations (for some reason I ALWAYS > misspell that as " demoniations " !) by which its members make > sense of the world. Like many religious ppl they will fight > ferociously to defend it. > > I wonder if there are occasions when groupers have been > violent to ppl who question their beliefs? Probably not, > because the religion is so pervasive that almost anyone who > has an opinion is a grouper themselves. Also, to attack > another's religion seems cruel and callous - > particularly one that has been traditionally considered > to help ppl at their lowest ebb. Ken had a surrealistic > violent fantasy made to him a few months ago on addict-l. > > It's lonely on addict-l - with Ken being being the only > outspoken rationalist (there is a woman who comes close, > but she still hasnt quite shaken off the grouper > mentality). Why not join in? though hot, *nothing* as bad > as Glenn and Reese is seen there - the pot just simmers > nicely most of the time, and extra rational input would be > very welcome - by me anyway. > I had hoped to read and participate in " academic and scholarly " discussions on addict-l. I find it dissapointing that 12-Step religiosity is so pervasive there. Not that I do not think the *As have a role in some people's recovery, I do. I just think that discussion of 12-step groups has no place in academic and scholarly discussions of addiction (except in the context of how some people may use religious rituals to overcome their addictions). I wanted to post my opinions at addict-l, but unfortunately anonymous posting is not allowed. In my situation, making such posts could get me into trouble with some fanatical 12-steppers that could damage my career. As such, I started a Forum called Substance Abuse and Chemical Dependency. It can be found at http://www.customforum.com/addictive This forum is brand new and is designed to stimulate discussions which are academic, scholarly, and scientific. It differs from addict-l in that the number of topics are limited and are designed to maintain the integrety of the subject matter. The topics include theory, treatment, medical aspects, and politics. This forum also allows members to post anonymously if they register as such. ----- Original Message: http://www.findmail.com/list/12-step-free/?start=201 Start a FREE e-mail list at http://www.FindMail.com/ ---- Read this list on the Web at http://www.FindMail.com/list/12-step-free/ To unsubscribe, email to 12-step-free-unsubscribe@... To subscribe, email to 12-step-free-subscribe@... -- Start a FREE E-Mail List at http://makelist.com ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 14, 1998 Report Share Posted July 14, 1998 I speculated as to why groupers hang around general addiction discussion lists, and suggested it was to Police them. I asked on addict-l why ppl participated. 1 friendly response from Ken. 1 sarcastic, dismissive attack from the list's most fucked up grouper. QED I think. Pete ---------------------- Cool Briton PERSONALITY-DISORDERS LIST: http://rdz.acor.org/athenaeum/lists.phtml?personality-disorders _____________________ " Every great scientist is part B.F. Skinner and part P.T. Barnum " - Bart Simpson's science teacher ---- Read this list on the Web at http://www.FindMail.com/list/12-step-free/ To unsubscribe, email to 12-step-free-unsubscribe@... To subscribe, email to 12-step-free-subscribe@... -- Start a FREE E-Mail List at http://makelist.com ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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