Guest guest Posted April 7, 2000 Report Share Posted April 7, 2000 Signed your AMA form? Sounds like this wasn't an AMA refusal... sounds like your advice was that a refusal was acceptable under certain enumerated conditions that the Sergeant agreed to. If it was AMA, that's a lot of liability for a police officer... Mike Re: Legal or Not? Heres the flip side to the consent for treatment issue. I had a call at one of the local city jails. The prisoner had a severe case of " jailitis " and wanted to go to the hospital (something about a change of scenery).Anyway, since I could not refuse transport I did talk to the Sgt. on duty who did refused to allow her to go seek medical treatment. I assessed this patient very well and documented well. The sgt. then signed my AMA form. Does anyone see a problem with this? Lindsey EMT-P ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Get your bargains at AndysGarage.com! http://click./1/2579/4/_/4981/_/955137376/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 7, 2000 Report Share Posted April 7, 2000 Wow, that's possibly a big problem, for both you and the PD. There's a couple of reasons why. In City of Canton, Ohio v. (1989), the city (PD) was sued and lost when an inmate was refused medical care. The court ruled the officers showed " deliberate indifference " by not allowing her access to medical care. The court stated the officers had not been provided the proper training to assess whether or not the inmate needed medical care and therefore were liable for her mistreatment. The subsequent case law implies that unless an officer has the training and necessary equipment as well as medical direction he could not make the determination whether or not a prisoner could be denied ACCESS to medical care. While an officer cannot force someone to accept care, he can control their access to such care. Secondly, without knowing the entire pt. complaint/hx., etc., I don't know if your protocols cover this incident. However, it is important to remember that as medics we do not practice automonously. We require the oversight and interaction of a physician, therefore, it is his/her license in jeapordy when we engage in behavior that is ill-advisable (as well as our own certification/licensure). I would be willing to bet that if it came to a suit, that Sgt., the PD and the city would put it all right on your's, your company's and your medical director's back. Again, I'm not saying you did anything improper per your protocols, I just believe we should be much more judicious in our " no transports " . This very jailitis, a.k.a. abberrant jail avoidance syndrome, is the very reason why telemedicine is working its way into detention facilities. This is fast becoming the next arena for pre-hospital providers. LP julie a lindsey wrote: > > Heres the flip side to the consent for treatment issue. I had a call at > one of the local city jails. The prisoner had a severe case of " jailitis " > and wanted to go to the hospital (something about a change of > scenery).Anyway, since I could not refuse transport I did talk to the > Sgt. on duty who did refused to allow her to go seek medical treatment. > I assessed this patient very well and documented well. The sgt. then > signed my AMA form. Does anyone see a problem with this? > > Lindsey EMT-P > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Get your bargains at AndysGarage.com! > http://click./1/2579/4/_/4981/_/955137376/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 7, 2000 Report Share Posted April 7, 2000 , Having once been in law enforcement and with the way everyone is lawsuit happy now days, It is my understanding that most departments either PD or SO jails will not take a person that maybe in need of medical attention because of the legal liability that they are assuming by taking that person. Does this still hold true for the most past still? Thanks, Wayne Re: Legal or Not? >Wow, that's possibly a big problem, for both you and the PD. There's a >couple of reasons why. > >In City of Canton, Ohio v. (1989), the city (PD) was sued and >lost when an inmate was refused medical care. The court ruled the >officers showed " deliberate indifference " by not allowing her access to >medical care. The court stated the officers had not been provided the >proper training to assess whether or not the inmate needed medical care >and therefore were liable for her mistreatment. The subsequent case law >implies that unless an officer has the training and necessary equipment >as well as medical direction he could not make the determination whether >or not a prisoner could be denied ACCESS to medical care. While an >officer cannot force someone to accept care, he can control their access >to such care. > >Secondly, without knowing the entire pt. complaint/hx., etc., I don't >know if your protocols cover this incident. However, it is important to >remember that as medics we do not practice automonously. We require the >oversight and interaction of a physician, therefore, it is his/her >license in jeapordy when we engage in behavior that is ill-advisable (as >well as our own certification/licensure). I would be willing to bet >that if it came to a suit, that Sgt., the PD and the city would put it >all right on your's, your company's and your medical director's back. > >Again, I'm not saying you did anything improper per your protocols, I >just believe we should be much more judicious in our " no transports " . >This very jailitis, a.k.a. abberrant jail avoidance syndrome, is the >very reason why telemedicine is working its way into detention >facilities. This is fast becoming the next arena for pre-hospital >providers. > > LP >julie a lindsey wrote: >> >> Heres the flip side to the consent for treatment issue. I had a call at >> one of the local city jails. The prisoner had a severe case of " jailitis " >> and wanted to go to the hospital (something about a change of >> scenery).Anyway, since I could not refuse transport I did talk to the >> Sgt. on duty who did refused to allow her to go seek medical treatment. >> I assessed this patient very well and documented well. The sgt. then >> signed my AMA form. Does anyone see a problem with this? >> >> Lindsey EMT-P >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Get your bargains at AndysGarage.com! >> http://click./1/2579/4/_/4981/_/955137376/ >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Special Offer-Earn 300 Points from MyPoints.com for trying @Backup >Get automatic protection and access to your important computer files. >Install today: >http://click./1/2344/4/_/4981/_/955143499/ >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 7, 2000 Report Share Posted April 7, 2000 I was under the impression that until a patient was unresponsive he/she had the right to refuse treatment. If the officers still wanted the patient seen it would be at the cost of the particular department, i.e., DPS, SO, or local PD. This is worth checking into since we are told (through the media) that counties and states pay for housing and all other bills incurred when they no longer have the room for inmates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 7, 2000 Report Share Posted April 7, 2000 Wayne, I can't speak for all but you're right on the money as far as our's goes. If they're so drunk they're unconcious, any major lacs, any complaint of illness or injury, etc., and they get a free ride to the ER. Again, that's where telemedicine is making progressive inroads. This may not seem important but it keeps medics on the street, MICU's available, taxpayer costs down. That last one translates into more money for other endeavours, i.e. EMS perhaps. Furthermore, it may provide a place for tired old medics to go... :-). LP Arlington PD Wayne wrote: > > , > > Having once been in law enforcement and with the way everyone is lawsuit > happy now days, It is my understanding that most departments either PD or SO > jails will not take a person that maybe in need of medical attention because > of the legal liability that they are assuming by taking that person. Does > this still hold true for the most past still? > > Thanks, > Wayne > Re: Legal or Not? > > >Wow, that's possibly a big problem, for both you and the PD. There's a > >couple of reasons why. > > > >In City of Canton, Ohio v. (1989), the city (PD) was sued and > >lost when an inmate was refused medical care. The court ruled the > >officers showed " deliberate indifference " by not allowing her access to > >medical care. The court stated the officers had not been provided the > >proper training to assess whether or not the inmate needed medical care > >and therefore were liable for her mistreatment. The subsequent case law > >implies that unless an officer has the training and necessary equipment > >as well as medical direction he could not make the determination whether > >or not a prisoner could be denied ACCESS to medical care. While an > >officer cannot force someone to accept care, he can control their access > >to such care. > > > >Secondly, without knowing the entire pt. complaint/hx., etc., I don't > >know if your protocols cover this incident. However, it is important to > >remember that as medics we do not practice automonously. We require the > >oversight and interaction of a physician, therefore, it is his/her > >license in jeapordy when we engage in behavior that is ill-advisable (as > >well as our own certification/licensure). I would be willing to bet > >that if it came to a suit, that Sgt., the PD and the city would put it > >all right on your's, your company's and your medical director's back. > > > >Again, I'm not saying you did anything improper per your protocols, I > >just believe we should be much more judicious in our " no transports " . > >This very jailitis, a.k.a. abberrant jail avoidance syndrome, is the > >very reason why telemedicine is working its way into detention > >facilities. This is fast becoming the next arena for pre-hospital > >providers. > > > > LP > >julie a lindsey wrote: > >> > >> Heres the flip side to the consent for treatment issue. I had a call at > >> one of the local city jails. The prisoner had a severe case of " jailitis " > >> and wanted to go to the hospital (something about a change of > >> scenery).Anyway, since I could not refuse transport I did talk to the > >> Sgt. on duty who did refused to allow her to go seek medical treatment. > >> I assessed this patient very well and documented well. The sgt. then > >> signed my AMA form. Does anyone see a problem with this? > >> > >> Lindsey EMT-P > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> Get your bargains at AndysGarage.com! > >> http://click./1/2579/4/_/4981/_/955137376/ > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >Special Offer-Earn 300 Points from MyPoints.com for trying @Backup > >Get automatic protection and access to your important computer files. > >Install today: > >http://click./1/2344/4/_/4981/_/955143499/ > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Special Offer-Earn 300 Points from MyPoints.com for trying @Backup > Get automatic protection and access to your important computer files. > Install today: > http://click./1/2344/4/_/4981/_/955151221/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 8, 2000 Report Share Posted April 8, 2000 It is the same in County, if there is any complaint of illness/injury or if the jail Sgt. thinks they need medical attention, they go to the ER. One that I have trouble with is if the person's blood alcohol is greater that .250, they go to the ER. We got people that maintain that BAC as their normal I think. Moseley LP Cleburne PD --- wrote: > Wayne, I can't speak for all but you're right on the > money as far as > our's goes. If they're so drunk they're unconcious, > any major lacs, any > complaint of illness or injury, etc., and they get a > free ride to the > ER. Again, that's where telemedicine is making > progressive inroads. > This may not seem important but it keeps medics on > the street, MICU's > available, taxpayer costs down. That last one > translates into more money > for other endeavours, i.e. EMS perhaps. > Furthermore, it may provide a > place for tired old medics to go... :-). > > LP > Arlington PD > Wayne wrote: > > > > , > > > > Having once been in law enforcement and with the > way everyone is lawsuit > > happy now days, It is my understanding that most > departments either PD or SO > > jails will not take a person that maybe in need of > medical attention because > > of the legal liability that they are assuming by > taking that person. Does > > this still hold true for the most past still? > > > > Thanks, > > Wayne > > Re: Legal or Not? > > > > >Wow, that's possibly a big problem, for both you > and the PD. There's a > > >couple of reasons why. > > > > > >In City of Canton, Ohio v. (1989), the > city (PD) was sued and > > >lost when an inmate was refused medical care. > The court ruled the > > >officers showed " deliberate indifference " by not > allowing her access to > > >medical care. The court stated the officers had > not been provided the > > >proper training to assess whether or not the > inmate needed medical care > > >and therefore were liable for her mistreatment. > The subsequent case law > > >implies that unless an officer has the training > and necessary equipment > > >as well as medical direction he could not make > the determination whether > > >or not a prisoner could be denied ACCESS to > medical care. While an > > >officer cannot force someone to accept care, he > can control their access > > >to such care. > > > > > >Secondly, without knowing the entire pt. > complaint/hx., etc., I don't > > >know if your protocols cover this incident. > However, it is important to > > >remember that as medics we do not practice > automonously. We require the > > >oversight and interaction of a physician, > therefore, it is his/her > > >license in jeapordy when we engage in behavior > that is ill-advisable (as > > >well as our own certification/licensure). I > would be willing to bet > > >that if it came to a suit, that Sgt., the PD and > the city would put it > > >all right on your's, your company's and your > medical director's back. > > > > > >Again, I'm not saying you did anything improper > per your protocols, I > > >just believe we should be much more judicious in > our " no transports " . > > >This very jailitis, a.k.a. abberrant jail > avoidance syndrome, is the > > >very reason why telemedicine is working its way > into detention > > >facilities. This is fast becoming the next arena > for pre-hospital > > >providers. > > > > > > LP > > >julie a lindsey wrote: > > >> > > >> Heres the flip side to the consent for > treatment issue. I had a call at > > >> one of the local city jails. The prisoner had a > severe case of " jailitis " > > >> and wanted to go to the hospital (something > about a change of > > >> scenery).Anyway, since I could not refuse > transport I did talk to the > > >> Sgt. on duty who did refused to allow her to > go seek medical treatment. > > >> I assessed this patient very well and > documented well. The sgt. then > > >> signed my AMA form. Does anyone see a problem > with this? > > >> > > >> Lindsey EMT-P > > >> > > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > >> Get your bargains at AndysGarage.com! > > >> > http://click./1/2579/4/_/4981/_/955137376/ > > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > >Special Offer-Earn 300 Points from MyPoints.com > for trying @Backup > > >Get automatic protection and access to your > important computer files. > > >Install today: > > > >http://click./1/2344/4/_/4981/_/955143499/ > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Special Offer-Earn 300 Points from MyPoints.com > for trying @Backup > > Get automatic protection and access to your > important computer files. > > Install today: > > > http://click./1/2344/4/_/4981/_/955151221/ > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 8, 2000 Report Share Posted April 8, 2000 In a message dated 04/08/2000 07:50:16 AM Central Daylight Time, gmoe240@... writes: << It is the same in County, if there is any complaint of illness/injury or if the jail Sgt. thinks they need medical attention, they go to the ER. One that I have trouble with is if the person's blood alcohol is greater that .250, they go to the ER. We got people that maintain that BAC as their normal I think. Moseley LP Cleburne PD >> Ok guys, but you let one county lose a lawsuit for a couple of million dollars and that little trip wont seem so bad. We all have bad calls, we all know pts that know how to work the system, so just say to yourself, I guess it could be worse and go on with life. If you start to let little things like this get to you, you won't last as long in this business as you would if you just let them roll off your back, go home, hug your kids, make love to your wife and have a nice career in EMS. It's what you studied to be, so don't let nonsense like this, shorten your career with ulcers and burn out. Remember the ones you saved and how many people had a much better day because of you and you will feel good most of the time. Andy Foote, EMTP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 8, 2000 Report Share Posted April 8, 2000 Comments inline... RE: Legal or Not? Mike, Uhm, I am trained in incident command. I used to be a fire-fighter, though only a lowly volunteer one whose department ran 600+ calls per year. M> I don't remember making any statements with regards to firefighters, or the volume of departments. It's my belief that this is important to everyone... and that this is something where size (of department, of call volume, etc.) doesn't matter. My point, which I was using sarcasm and humor to make, was that when a police officer tells you to do something, it is in your best interest to do it. The scene is NOT the place to get into a pissing match at. If the cop wants to be a dip-stick and insist that the patient isn't going to the hospital, let them take the lawsuit. In this situation it is time to cover your ass. M> You and I disagree completely here. If the police officer is attempting to make a decision that I feel endangers life, whether it be mine, my crews or my patients, and he/she can't back up that decision with a rational argument, then I'm not going to allow that decision to be made. Now that doesn't require getting in his/her face and intoning chants to Satan, but it may require stern refusals. Hopefully, though, this is a very, very rare situation, and hopefully, there's someone else that can handle the problem (EMS supervisor, PD Sergeant, etc.). As for lawsuits, it's my patch until someone above me accepts responsibility, and most likely, the police officer is not a higher medical authority. As far as IC goes. I don't care what it says. Texas Code states that the Police Department is in charge on the scene. Unless it is a fire, the the FD is in charge. Period. End of discussion. M> I disagree completely. If you'll show me the code you're referring to (VTCS is pretty large to go browsing through), I'd love to discuss it. I'm sure several others here would, too. There have been SEVERAL scenes that weren't law-enforcement related, and several that were, where EMS and/or Fire ran the scene, but again, it's usually because it's the right thing to do, not some " bad cop no doughnut " king of thing. A SMART cop or Fire Chief is going to allocate his/her resources appropriatly. Unfortunately, those little trumpets/buggles on many a chiefs collar seem to indicate how fast his/her brains drain out. Then there is the problem that too many cops have the badge and gun attitude (I have a badge and a gun, so I am god). DON'T start the fight with them at the scene. That is what your supervisor and medical director are for. Let THEM fight the battle in the correct place, the Police Officers Bosses office. You will accomplish more that way. M> All depends on the chief and the department. But you should fight if anyone is creating a danger for you, your crew or your patient. Webb, EMT-P FLW EMS, MO ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 8, 2000 Report Share Posted April 8, 2000 Where can the copy of the federal mandate be seen. Henry Barber Greg Higgins wrote: > > > >ICS is something that should be considered ESSENTIAL training for ANYONE in > >EMS. Any more, EMS isn't just the paramedics playing with neat toys, it's > >everyone and their dog showing up on scene, all wanting to help. ICS let's > >everyone play in the sandbox together without fighting over toys or throwing > >sand. > > > >Mike > > > > There is a Federal mandate that REQUIRES ALL emergency response agencies to > train AND use the Incident Command System. The fire service has been using > some form of ICS for 30 years so it is second nature for us. It's too bad > that some agencies (industry, police and EMS, etc.) don't think it applies > to them. > > Greg Higgins > Fort Worth Fire Department > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Earn $500 by transferring your big list to eGroups. > For details click here: > http://click./1/2980/4/_/4981/_/955122944/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 10, 2000 Report Share Posted April 10, 2000 Lookup the SARA act. It mandates ICS in HazMat situations. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 10, 2000 Report Share Posted April 10, 2000 HEY Explain what you mean maybe I can help. Legal or Not? Can a licensed peace officer in the State of Texas legally refuse: a. medical assessment by EMS personnel b. medical treatment by same or; c. medically supervised transportation I honestly thought that I knew the answer but have been told differently and could use some help.....thanks! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Win $1000 this Friday! Go to: http://click./1/2892/4/_/4981/_/955071717/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 10, 2000 Report Share Posted April 10, 2000 Parsley wrote: Can a licensed peace officer in the State of Texas legally refuse: a. medical assessment by EMS personnel b. medical treatment by same or; c. medically supervised transportation I honestly thought that I knew the answer but have been told differently and could use some help.....thanks! Gene Gandy answers: The answer is quite simple: Yes, they CAN because they're wearing the gun. But they do so at their EXTREME legal peril. EMS people would document in detail the interference of the law enforcement people and this should trigger a whole series of events: official complaints to the Chief of Police, City Manager, Mayor, and so forth. EMS Management cannot ignore this. To fail to respond subjects it to liability. Somebody would immediately call up a friendly newsperson, and the media loves NOTHING so much as police misconduct given the recent problems in NYC and LA. Plaintiffs' attorneys would emerge from the woodwork to make sure the afflicted prisoner was made aware of his rights to sue, the FBI would be notified and would investigate, the Department of Justice Civil Rights Division would get the case and decide whether to prosecute the police persons for criminal civil rights violations, the Police Chief would, if s/he is smart would ask the Texas Rangers to investigate, and a civil suit would most surely be filed if there were any significant injuries and damages. The cops would find themselves in a heap of trouble. The ACLU would bleat bloody murder and if the prisoner belonged to a racial or ethnic minority all the organizations involved in promoting the rights of those people would be on Larry King Live not to mention Today, Good Morning America, and Bill O'Reilly. My advice to cops: Just don't do it! Go the other way and DEMAND EMS Assessment, treatment and transport. Then you're covered. Incidents like this in a police officer's personnel file will retard advancement even if they ultimately win. Who needs this? Gene Gandy, JD, LP My opinions are my own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 11, 2000 Report Share Posted April 11, 2000 I believe my question has been asnwered but the perspective I was looking for was from that of a peace officer's ability to consent/refuse for a prisoner. If you have additional information I would be more than happy to take a look at it, thanks! > Can a licensed peace officer in the State of Texas legally refuse: > > a. medical assessment by EMS personnel > > b. medical treatment by same or; > > c. medically supervised transportation > > I honestly thought that I knew the answer but have been told > differently and could use some help.....thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 11, 2000 Report Share Posted April 11, 2000 My best judgment is that the police officer stands in loco parentis of the prisoner and can consent; however, the perils of failure to consent probably wipe that out as an alternative. I'm sure somebody can think up a scenario or has experienced one where it would have been OK for the police officer to refuse treatment on behalf of the prisoner, but I can't. Police can't perform medical assessments unless they're cross certified/licensed as EMS personnel. Gene Gandy, JD, LP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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