Re: Med-less changes, was Re: hello out there

[Guest guest]

Dear Robin,

Whew - was beginning to feel the list had dropped into the fourth dimension!

I've heard this often in LC-DIABETES ... all glucose readings and other blood

test results normal, except that pesky morning reading. I have nothing to go

on other than my hunch, which is that I think it's just something normal our

bodies do in the morning. That's why I call it the Rooster Effect ... I think

it's our bodies going through their process of greeting the day. I think that

in non-diabetics, something similar also happens, but that their bodies

function so perfectly that that little spike is quickly dealt with, whereas

it lingers a bit for us. I've heard from low-carbing diabetics who inject

insulin just specifically for that morning mini-spike. With all your other

readings in such good shape, I wonder if that momentary fluke truly matters

....

Anyone else?

Susie

[Guest guest]

<< Anyone else? >>

As you know I have IGT and my morning readings are usually 80 to 95.My

readings during the day run between 120 to 160.(after eating and yes I am

trying to get them down) However last week one day I had my bg down to 100 or

less all day and then the next morning I woke up with a fbg of 115. Never

before has it been this high. So what's up with that?

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/13/2000 12:20:26 PM Eastern Standard Time,

ottercritter@... writes:

<< hat I think it's just something normal our

bodies do in the morning. That's why I call it the Rooster Effect ... I

think

it's our bodies going through their process of greeting the day. I think

that

in non-diabetics, something similar also happens, but that their bodies

function so perfectly that that little spike is quickly dealt with, whereas

it lingers a bit for us. I've heard from low-carbing diabetics who inject

insulin just specifically for that morning mini-spike. With all your other

readings in such good shape, I wonder if that momentary fluke truly matter >>

Well, any spike matters, but you are right, every body does it, its just that

with diabetics, that response is gone or minimal to respond to any glucose,

it does think the body is in starvation mode, thats why the glucose rise. By

the time we get up, eat, exercise, shower, etc., then the insulin response

kicks in. But its too slow with dm or not at all.

In my opinion this is why bg is lower during the day and not at night, we are

eating and moving around all day, at night we are at rest and not eating.

The problem with this is any spike does in time lead to complications.....but

only if you're predisposed to it, a new study I read about on another list is

they think just as dm is predisposed or genetic, same might go whether you

get the complications. Ask your DR about it, a blood test will be developed

to pinpoint this.

I really believe this as I have heard from some dmers that they maintain bg

around 200, never exercise, eat junk, but just inject for it, and haven't

seen any complications, not to say it might not happen in the future, but

these are old time dm, meaning they've had dm for years.

So for now, until its known for sure, I want to make sure I never spike, even

during the night.

carol

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/13/2000 5:38:58 PM Eastern Standard Time,

rcglaze@... writes:

<< The evening snack is the only thing I can

think of to change. >>

No one is more low carb than me, LOL

Sometimes the dm just progresses to the dawn effect, and thats all it is,

your dm. I found this to be true for me, so I have to use a strong long

lasting background insulin, and I just kept increasing it until I got 100

every morning, after meals and in between.

Some people need more meds than others, thats all, some don't need anything.

Just the life in diabetes.

I eliminated snacks about 2 years ago I think, LOL :-)

Just keep trying one thing after the other, and see what works for you. Keep

testing and you see what works for you, for me it was insulin and low carb.

Any more than about 20 or so carbs a day and I need a zillion units of

insulin, just the way it is.

And know what else? My meds need to be changed every few weeks or so, it

keeps changing, and is different with some foods, thats how I know which food

to avoid altogether.

carol

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 00-12-13 14:57:55 EST, you write:

<<

Maybe now that I'm off the meds, I need to give up the evening snack?

Couldn't hurt to try.

>>

Good idea.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 00-12-13 17:54:43 EST, you write:

<< And know what else? My meds need to be changed every few weeks or so, it

keeps changing, and is different with some foods, thats how I know which

food

to avoid altogether. >>

I thought I was the only one with this problem! Just as I think I've got it

down pat something changes. Interestingly, learned that I need different

conversion numbers for dinner from breakfast and lunch. . And that changes

from time to time, too. (Conversion number meaning carbs per unit insulin)

For breakfast and lunch I use 11 carbs per unit insulin; for dinner it's 5.25

carbs per unit. Right now. Vicki

[Guest guest]

This works for you, Sam...it sure wouldn't work for me. If I have a half

tangerine a day it's a lot of fruit for me and I have to dose for it too. If

I want to keep my carbs low I have to forego a lot of stuff you seem to be

able to eat. Love it but it doesn't love me. Vicki

In a message dated 00-12-13 18:27:13 EST, you write:

<<

Robin, I eat right up until bedtime, from a fruit diah, whatevers

in good supply. I find good quality and low price most often go

hand in hand. I use pears, orange, honeydew or cantaloupe (for

regularity)

banana, mango presently 3/$. I eat it with acctive bacillus

vanilla yogurt I buy about 2-3 quart containers a week. Recently

got ssome strawberry and some lemon chiffon. Sam

>>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/13/00 12:20:32 PM Eastern Standard Time,

ottercritter@... writes:

<< all glucose readings and other blood

test results normal, except that pesky morning reading. I have nothing to go

on other than my hunch, which is that I think it's just something normal our

bodies do in the morning. That's why I call it the Rooster Effect ... I

think

it's our bodies going through their process of greeting the day. >>

I was told that this is because all our body's release glucose overnight from

our livers... and with us diabetics we dont get the increase in our insulin

to combate it, like normies do... so basically what Susie hypothisied but

with a little more info added

[Guest guest]

Robin wrote:

<< Maybe now that I'm off the meds, I need to give up the evening snack?

Couldn't hurt to try. >>

I always figured evening snacks were for people who were on sulfs, or 1's who

were using a background insulin overnight that was too peaky.

Susie

[Guest guest]

Vicki wrote:

<< Interestingly, learned that I need different conversion numbers for dinner

from breakfast and lunch. . And that changes from time to time, too.

(Conversion number meaning carbs per unit insulin) For breakfast and lunch I

use 11 carbs per unit insulin; for dinner it's 5.25 >>

I've heard that as well. Some pumpers report, e.g., needing less insulin/carb

grams, depending on time of day.

Susie

[Guest guest]

Vicki wrote:

<< This works for you, Sam...it sure wouldn't work for me. If I have a half

tangerine a day it's a lot of fruit for me and I have to dose for it too. If

I want to keep my carbs low I have to forego a lot of stuff you seem to be

able to eat. Love it but it doesn't love me. >>

I think Sam would admit that, in all honesty, all that fruit is not working

very well for him either. Although fruit contains fructose, rather than

regular sugar, it still tends to have a high Glycemic Index. Sam eats a lot

of fruit because he loves fruit ... not because a high-fruit diet is

recommended for diabetics. He acknowledges that it spikes him, and tries to

get around that by " grazing " all day long rather than eating defined meals.

He also acknowledges that he is developing complications. Sam unfortunately

just lost another toe, which the doctor was able to amputate in the office

because of Sam's loss of nerves and circulation in his feet.

Susie

[Guest guest]

<<

> I was told that this is because all our body's release glucose overnight

> from

> our livers... and with us diabetics we dont get the increase in our insulin

> to combate it, like normies do... so basically what Susie hypothisied but

> with a little more info added

> >>

I was just going to email this in also. I was really frustrated about that

at first. I asked my doctor and his response? Oh that's strange. Was

seein' a good one eh?

I searched the internet. I finally found a diabetes page that talked about

it. While we are sleeping our liver produces glucose so that our blood sugar

doesn't get too low. In normal people the insulin (as said) is

perfectly released to combat it. Our own bodies fighting against us. But

then what else is new!

Camille

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/14/2000 10:12:58 AM Eastern Standard Time,

ottercritter@... writes:

<< or 1's who

were using a background insulin overnight that was too peaky. >>

This was true with 70/30, and those who are taking N, and the like are

advised to snack, as it does peak, thats why a lot more are choosing

Ultralente as the background insulin as it peaks very tiny bit at 2 hours,

then its steady after that. So no snack is needed.

What do you say Vicki? I'm a dm2, but I take just insulin, and my DR has me

down in my records as dm1 IDDM !!! Guess they can't grasp the in between

types yet, LOL :-)

carol

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 00-12-14 12:30:07 EST, you write:

<< So no snack is needed.

What do you say Vicki? >>

Well, I take H with meals and background U at noon and bedtime. I don't eat

anything after (very early) dinner, which, when I'm eating at home, is 4 p.m.

No bedtime snacks. Vicki

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/14/2000 2:48:00 PM Eastern Standard Time,

whimsy2@... writes:

<< Well, I take H with meals and background U at noon and bedtime. I don't

eat

anything after (very early) dinner, which, when I'm eating at home, is 4

p.m.

No bedtime snacks. Vicki >>

I take these too, do you get hungry later at night? I do but probably habit

as I used to work 12midnight to 8am in a hospital. We always did rounds and

hung the early IV's then had our meals and snacks the rest of the night as we

worked too. Really hard to break my night cycle.

doing better though, melatonin has helped with this, but not always.

Sometimes I just don't want to sleep at night, I'm so used to it, I did those

hours for20 years.

Do you take equal doses of U?

carol

[Guest guest]

I used to get hungry at night but I started eating nuts at the end of dinner

- about 20 grams of almonds - and that seemed to do the job. My work

schedule is pretty weird I'm a medical transcriptionist - my shift is 1:30

to 10 - so I'm kept pretty busy at night...I may think of food but outside of

a half hour for dinner and two 15-minute breaks, I'm pretty much glued to the

computer. I just stay away from the kitchen. I have pretty strong willpower

and (luckily!) I've never experienced those food cravings that seem to affect

a lot of type 2s.

Are you a nurse?

I do have problems with insomnia about once a week -- all three kinds, early,

middle and late. I'm generally in bed with lights out by 10:15...sometimes I

can tell if I'm going to be insomniac and I take a Benadryl or two. (I used

to use melatonin but it stopped being effective). And if I wake up any time

after 4:30 a.m. I just bag it and get up. I can operate on six hours of sleep

very nicely. I'm a morning person and my regular wake-up time is 5:30 a.m.

Just gives me more time to Do Things (like catch up on e-mail) the insomnia

started about four years ago...slightly before my diabetes diagnosis. Don't

know if there's any connection between the two. Could just be age (I'm going

o be 63 in 2 weeks). Vicki

In a message dated 00-12-14 15:07:13 EST, you write:

<<

I take these too, do you get hungry later at night? I do but probably habit

as I used to work 12midnight to 8am in a hospital. We always did rounds and

hung the early IV's then had our meals and snacks the rest of the night as

we

worked too. Really hard to break my night cycle.

doing better though, melatonin has helped with this, but not always.

Sometimes I just don't want to sleep at night, I'm so used to it, I did

those

hours for20 years.

Do you take equal doses of U?

carol

>>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 00-12-14 15:07:13 EST, you write:

<< Do you take equal doses of U?

carol >>

Oh yes, forgot to answer that one. I take 6-1/2 U at noon, 5 at bedtime (not

quite 12 hours apart). Vicki

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/14/2000 3:24:53 PM Eastern Standard Time,

whimsy2@... writes:

<< Are you a nurse? >>

Yes, well sort of, I am certified as a nurse technician, I worked on a

cardiac/cancer floor. I did patient care, IV's, not meds though, drawing

blood, EKG's. diabetes monitoring and teaching. this was 7 1/2 yrs ago, much

has changed, didn't even know about low carb then, we were telling all the

diabetics, high carbs, low protein, LOL !!! :-)

My job was basically to help the RN's and that did include anything that they

didn't have time for, I didn't have to chart, just the vital signs of course.

But I did as a rule do CPR every night, so the physical requirements, with

the running and lifting I just couldn't do it anymore.

I evidently inherited that complications gene, I have the dreaded neuropathy,

suddenly couldn't walk or stand anymore, and my hands cramped up, and just to

take a blood pressure was agony, even putting the leads on a patient for an

EKG.

carol

[Guest guest]

Carol asked:

<< What do you say Vicki? I'm a dm2, but I take just insulin, and my DR has

me

down in my records as dm1 IDDM !!! Guess they can't grasp the in between

types yet, LOL :-) >>

That's sorta scary, Carol. As a holder of a commercial driver's license, I'm

concerned about restrictions placed on those declared insulin-*dependent*.

Even those of us who are type 2's tend to be close-mouthed about it, for fear

that someone will overreact and keep us from driving, just because we're

diabetic.

We have several missions, one of which is to share cutting-edge info to help

our fellow diabetics, but we also need to be willing to be militant to make

sure that those of us who are insulin-dependent, but whose control is so good

that we do not represent a highway menace, can be allowed to drive. It's a

terrible thing for someone to lose that privilege. My parents worried for

years before they finally voluntarily gave up trying to drive their own

vehicles.

Susie