Re: Question on how many carbs.

[Guest guest]

No but I'm going to get the book real soon. In fact the other night Ron

was looking for it at the book store we went but did not have it. Might

have to look on the internet for it.

Donna

On Tue, 23 Jan 2001 19:46:41 EST whimsy2@... writes:

> In a message dated 01-01-23 17:43:27 EST, you write:

>

> << I also told Ron he knows nothing about diabetes but that he will

> start

> educating himself so he is able to take care of himself >>

>

> Good for you, Donna! Now...do you have the Bernstein book yet???

> Vicki

[Guest guest]

OK I see what your saying here. Like I told son and dad. I believe in

TOUGH LOVE!! If one thing don't work then by god we will change our ways.

This tough love is working for his son. It's Donna's one are NO WAY!! I

told both of them that I'll stand by them but if they refuse help I'M

GONE!!! I love both of them but won't stand by and see them kill

themselves. You don't mind helping someone but if they won't help

themselves then your wasting your time. Yes I'm over weight and he keeps

pushing in my face " maybe your diabetic. " Maybe I need to get check in

order to please him. I think he is using me as his outing.

On Tue, 23 Jan 2001 19:53:33 EST whimsy2@... writes:

> In a message dated 01-01-23 18:12:55 EST, you write:

>

> << but him and his son have been told by me

> tonight that once dad goes to the Dr. and we get him on track

> EVERYONE in

> the house will be eating for dad's health. >>

>

> Donna, do be aware that the vast majority of doctors follow the ADA

> plan for

> diabetics, which is definitely not a lowcarb plan. Lowcarb gives

> the fastest

> and most dramatic results but it's not the only way. There are some

> people

> on this list who have found success with the ADA plan. Many more on

> this

> list follow lowcarb. So if you're planning to go this route, try to

> find a

> doctor who approves of it. I'd suggest you read the Bernstein book

> as soon as

> you can...specifically before you see t he doctor so you can ask the

> right

> questions.

>

> Diabetes is a self managed disease but most doctors don't see it

> that way

> because most patients don't want it that way. They would rather

> take a pill

> or two and not change teir way of eating. That will get you noplace

> fast.

> Vicki

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 01-01-24 01:04:46 EST, you write:

<<

Could those of you on the ADA diet comment on how it is working for you?

>>

Additionally, could those who tried the ADA diet then switched to a lowcarb

diet comment too? A comparison would be good to read. V.

[Guest guest]

Donna, a diabetic whose body is used to very high numbers can feel " hypo " at

numbers that would be otherwise considered normal. In other words, in a

person who is consistently running high numbers, having normal numbers can

feel like a hypo. This will change as numbers normalize. A true hypo is

anything under 65. Normal BGs are around 100. A true hypo can be dangerous,

even life threatening if it's low enough.

Some symptoms of being hypo are sweatiness and fuzzy thinking. Some people

get tingling on the roof of their mouth. There are other symptoms too. When

in doubt about a hypo, test. Vicki

In a message dated 01-01-24 07:48:39 EST, you write:

<<

That's what I'm worried about is maybe there are other medical problems

we are not aware of. Damage from the diabetics, high blood pressure and

ashma. His sugar was 177 this morning but he was so cold and clammy to

the touch. I checked my sugar and it was 78. I told him are you happy

now, smile. Kept saying maybe your diabetic.

>>

[Guest guest]

> Ron told me he don't feel good and went

> to sleep. I said of course you don't feel

> good your sugar is WAY TOO HIGH.

It won't do any harm telling him that, Debbie, as long as you don't

believe it too. If it was so then there wouldn't be so many

undiagnosed diabetics walking about feeling just fine.

> When this Dr. calls tomorrow I'm going to

> STRESS to them how sick he is and ALL his

> other medical problems he has.

It must be those " other medical problems " that make him feel bad,

Donna. You cannot rely on feeling bad from 240 mg/dl, unfortunately!

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 01/24/2001 12:50:48 PM Eastern Standard Time,

lists@... writes:

<< One advantage of being in a hospital with other diabetics is that

some of them will be in a much more advanced stage than he is and

once he sees them laying there all piped up and with all systems

monitored, or learning to walk again with their prosthetic legs, I

doubt that he will be able to keep up his indifference to the

consequences of neglecting his condition. It is like having a

premonition of the type of life that he is about to start living! >>

Very good advice, it would have an impact on him, I've seen it happen, but in

the cases I saw it was family members of diabetics who were headed down the

same road, and it does wonders for them to see what can happen.

I worked on a cardiac/cancer floor, so I worked with lot of diabetics, since

heart disease, and many cancers, like kidney, etc. are dm complications.

carol

[Guest guest]

> Could those of you on the ADA diet comment

> on how it is working for you?

You seem to be asking for our personal comments on the nutritional

aspects of our treatment, Danna. The following are my personal

opinions gained from reading recommendations by nutritionists,

diabetes associations in English, German, French and Spanish, medical

textbooks on physiology and pathophysiology, nutritional textbooks

and lists of reference values for nutrition in Europe, discussions

with physicians and hospital nutritionists, and the output of many

Internet searches, and discussions on many diabetes and weight-loss

newsgroups.

Nevertheless, the conclusions drawn are still my personal opinion and

have no more value than any others you will read on this list. All

you can do is read as much as you can, try out as much as you can

yourself and observe ALL the effects (don't forget that some effects

will take years to show and require some expensive tests to

demonstrate) and draw your own conclusions.

First of all, Danna, there is no such thing as an " ADA diet " . The ADA

is against " diets " so they would be unlikely to have their own.

If you buy the American Diabetes Association Complete Guide to

Diabetes, 2nd Edition, ISBN 1-58040-038-8, $23.95, you will find 39

pages on " Healthy Eating " . What the ADA recommends is a " Healthy

Eating Plan " and it is very little different from what is recommended

by the World Health Organization for everybody in the world, not just

Americans.

I was told early on that diabetes is not the worst thing that could

happen to me! I believe that I was well advised to eat the way

epidemiological studies and intervention studies all over the world

indicate (not prove!) is the optimum way to eat today for good health

generally.

What is healthy eating for a diabetic is exactly the same as is

healthy eating for non-diabetics too. Nobody has ever convincingly

demonstrated that diabetics need to feed themselves any other way

than anybody else. It is true that I could have manipulated my

diabetes symptoms with my choice of foods but that is not to be

confused with healthy eating, that is something altogether different.

Treating symptoms obviously has a great value for some people but not

for me so I cannot judge it.

The ratio of carbohydrate to protein is more difficult to demonstrate

but reports are that reducing protein intake to about 0.8 grams per

kilogram reference body weight goes a long way towards relieving the

kidneys of their load. Other reports claim that the serum protein

levels associated with a high protein diet are found otherwise only

in victims of massive high-degree burn trauma and are for that reason

alone to be avoided. I have chosen to believe them.

So now I have set total calories to give me the energy I need while

still losing weight slowly, and have fixed the amount of fat I eat on

average each day at 30% of calories and the amount of protein I eat

each day at 15% of calories that leaves only the amount of

carbohydrates to fix and they are all that is left so they have to

provide 55% of total calories. Not that there is any other reason to

eat that amount of carbohydrates, it is just that having limited fat

and proteins for good reasons, the only food item left to make up the

calories is the carbohydrates.

Not just any carbohydrates, mind you, but complex, long-chain,

natural carbohydrates obtained from fruit, vegetables and high-

extraction grain flour. It is true that, following the recommendation

to eat primarily fresh food, I have found it very difficult to get

that much carbohydrate and that little vegetable protein in my weekly

averages. I assume that this is possible with a great effort and I am

still working on it. In the book, the ADA does not recommend any

particular protein-to-carbohydrate ratio but it seems to result

inevitably from the recommended balance of foods in the Food Pyramid

(page 231).

Basically, I have confirmed on myself that reducing my fat intake

below the amount of 60 grams per day, corresponding to about 30% of

my energy intake in calories, has enabled me not only to lose nearly

20% of my total weight in 12 months without acquiring any

deficíencies whatever but also to normalize my mean blood glucose

levels to HbA1c 4.7 with near-minimum medication.

I was 30% overweight and had an HbA1c of 12% at the start so I

consider the treatment and the " healthy meal plan " to be a success. I

still have another 10% body weight loss to go to reach BMI 25 and I

am absolutely confident that I will make it with fat intake reduced

to its present level and what is just as important, to hold it at

that weight.

At the beginning I was told by others that diabetes is a malfunction

of the carbohydrate metabolism therefore eat less carbohydrate and

that will alleviate the harmful effects of diabetes on the body. I

soon realized that carbohydrates provide the glucose that is the fuel

on which the body runs, without which the brain dies in short order.

Cutting down on carbohydrates to reduce blood glucose would have been

like having a car that guzzles gasoline and solving the problem by

putting in less gasoline each time I tanked up. Sure, that would

alleviate the harmful effect that a gas-guzzling car has on my bank

balance but it changes absolutely nothing about the car's gas-

guzzling characteristics.

I can see that drastically reduced carbohydrate input could be useful

for treating a diabetic with very bad control (like around 200 mg/dl

fasting and 300-400 mg/dl after a meal, for example) in the short

term but as soon as that improves it would be time to get back to

what the ADA calls a " healthy meal plan " . I was never in that

situation so I have no personal experience of it.

Once again, Danna, this is all just my personal experience with

eating the way the ADA recommends (or very close to it). For me and

many others I have corresponded with, it has worked well. I cannot

exclude, however, that some others would have different results to

report so I would like to remind you that the above are nothing more

than just what you asked for - my personal comments.

[Guest guest]

> His sugar was 177 this morning but he was so

> cold and clammy to the touch.

In my opinion, Donna, he would be better off hopitalized. He needs a

complete check-over, separation from his usual surroundings and a

proper diabetes adjustment under clinical conditions. They need to

establish a baseline for all complications, including eyes, feet,

heart and kidneys and a full treatment plan, including nutrition and

he needs the diabetes schooling, in short - the works!

Anything much short of that and he is always going to be a problem

for you. There will be too many unknowns. I know it sounds brutal but

your best hope is if he really has some urgent need for

hospitalization anyway - in that case try to make sure that he gets

into a diabetes clinic if you can or at least that at the admission

you make it well known that his primary need is for diabetes

adjustment.

One advantage of being in a hospital with other diabetics is that

some of them will be in a much more advanced stage than he is and

once he sees them laying there all piped up and with all systems

monitored, or learning to walk again with their prosthetic legs, I

doubt that he will be able to keep up his indifference to the

consequences of neglecting his condition. It is like having a

premonition of the type of life that he is about to start living!

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 01/24/2001 1:50:43 PM Eastern Standard Time,

lists@... writes:

<< If you were a diabetic admitted to hospital with a cardiac or cancer

condition, Carol, would you insist on going to a ward that had

diabetes-trained staff? >>

Most nurses are trained in diabetes care, that wasn't always the case though.

Now its allowed for a patient to keep syringes and insulin at bedside, but

still it must be DR ordered. But if the patient tells the nurse on admission

what insulin they use and how much, they call the DR for orders and it is

always ordered, I've never heard otherwise.

If the nurses aren't educated, many are willing to listen to patients.

No way would it be allowed for a nurse to come in and take the insulin away

saying it isn't allowed, its against patient privacy laws here. Public

assistance or not, doesn't matter, care is the same, we have laws on that.

If a family member or the patient makes wishes known for no glucose IV fluid

for instance, that could cause problems, they seem to have the thinking that

they can always use insulin to bring bg down, but they just don't want bg to

go too low while in hospital or during surgery, but when I was in I submitted

a letter to my DR, surgeon, and the hospital stating not to use it, and they

didn't.

A sample letter is in the DR Bernstein diabetes solution book how to do this,

it includes many things like also self insulin management, bg testing, diet,

IV therapy, that type of thing, your care in general as a diabetic.

I basically just told my surgeon and DR what I wanted as far as my care and

insulin management goes, and they wrote the orders.

carol

[Guest guest]

> Additionally, could those who tried the ADA

> diet then switched to a lowcarb diet comment

> too? A comparison would be good to read.

Yes, I agree. It would also be nice to know:

- how long they tried it and

- what made them switch.

I just had a look back at my long epistle to see if I said WHY I

switched TO the ADA-style meal plan and I see that I didn't so here

it is:

I was eating high-fat, high-protein, low carbohydrate meals for many

years before I was diagnosed with diabetes and it sure didn't do me

any good in that time and, in my opinion, a lot of harm. So I had to

change to something else, anyway, and there wasn't really anything

else to switch TO. Well, it wasn't even really a switch - I moved the

fats and proteins slowly down and the carbohydrates slowly up and the

nearer I got to the target, the better I felt (and the better was my

HbA1c).

Now it seems second nature to me - cut out all animal proteins if

possible and limit vegetable proteins to 15% of energy (currently

just over 22% this week). After that use the carbohydrates to chase

the fat away and stop eating when I get near my target calories, at

present 1700 kcals per day on a weekly average. Only " natural " food,

of course, nothing out of a packet. No snacks of any kind, no

confectionary, no alcohol, no sugar substitutes, no hidden fats, very

little oil, plenty of water.

Take all that with a total of 90 minutes a day physical exercise,

though. I really cannot imagine what I would be eating now if I

wasn't exercising - I guess the same kind of stuff but much less of

it, probably about 1400 kcals/day. Those extra 300 kcals/day make a

lot of difference to meal choices and sheer volume!

[Guest guest]

Thornton wrote:

<< the above are nothing more than just what you asked for - my personal

comments >>

If they had been, I wouldn't feel compelled to respond to this assortment of

half-truths, .

<< It is true that I could have manipulated my diabetes symptoms with my

choice of foods but that is not to be confused with healthy eating, that is

something altogether different. >>

Aah - diabetes symptoms. Let's see ... that would be hypertension, increased

pressure in the kidneys, unhealthy cholesterol and triglycerides,

neuropathy, visual disturbances, etc. These " symptoms " becomes the diabetes

complications of kidney failure, blindness, amputations, stroke, heart

attacks, and early death. Yes, many of us diabetics do use diet to treat

these symptoms. Any reputable health source will tell you that diet is

suposed to be our primary treatment method.

is relatively newly-diagnosed. We're hoping he comes to appreciate the

seriousness of this disease with the passing years.

<< Treating symptoms obviously has a great value for some people but not for

me so I cannot judge it. >>

You do judge it. Read your own words!

<< The ratio of carbohydrate to protein is more difficult to demonstrate but

reports are that reducing protein intake to about 0.8 grams per kilogram

reference body weight goes a long way towards relieving the kidneys of their

load. >>

What babies our kidneys is relieving the pressure in them, by (a)

normalizing our glucose readings as much as possible, and ( taking a

first- or second-generation ACE inhibitor. Damaged kidneys leak protein, but

eating high-protein does not damage healthy kidneys. I've been eating

high-protein for years, and my kidney function hasn't deteriorated at all. A

recent study fed subjects varying amounts of protein, ranging from 's

low, to twice that, to four times that, with no noticeable kidney

deterioration. On the other hand, people who restrict their protein intake

can suffer from anemia and other serious health problems.

<< Other reports claim that the serum protein levels associated with a high

protein diet are found otherwise only in victims of massive high-degree burn

trauma and are for that reason alone to be avoided. >>

Gee, I wonder what's " wrong " with my high-protein kidneys, that they don't

resemble those of " massive high-degree burn trauma " victims, but are instead

perfectly healthy. I hope you see that uses words cleverly, but he is

at odds with many of us who've been using diet as our primary diabetes

treatment method for years.

<< have fixed the amount of fat I eat on average each day at 30% of calories

and the amount of protein I eat each day at 15% of calories that leaves only

the amount of carbohydrates to fix and they are all that is left so they

have to provide 55% of total calories. >>

Except that, as admits, he is not achieving that goal. He continually

claims good health and weight loss eating 30/15/55 (fat/protein/carbs), when

in fact he has never eaten 55% carbohydrate. he talks the talk, but he

doesn't walk the walk.

<< Not just any carbohydrates, mind you, but complex, long-chain, natural

carbohydrates obtained from fruit, vegetables and high-extraction grain

flour. >>

Think of a simple carbohydrate as one link in a chain, with complex carbs

being the whole chain. The first thing one's body does when fed complex

carbohydrates is break the chain into individual links, to process them as

sugar. The only thing accomplished by eating complex carbs is some slowing

of the process. One's pancreas is still being overworked by the same number

of carb grams. The difference between simple carbs and complex carbs is

minor.

<< I still have another 10% body weight loss to go to reach BMI 25 >>

is the BMI the same as the Ideal Body Fat Percentages the Drs. Eades discuss

in their book " Protein Power " ? They say for males age 41-50, the range

should be 14-20%; for males 51-60, it should be 16-20%; and for males 61+,

it should be 17-21%.

<< At the beginning I was told by others that diabetes is a malfunction of

the carbohydrate metabolism therefore eat less carbohydrate and that will

alleviate the harmful effects of diabetes on the body. I

soon realized that carbohydrates provide the glucose that is the fuel on

which the body runs, without which the brain dies in short order. >>

So - I guess all those kids that have been on ketogenic-level diets for

years to treat seizues and attention deficit disorder have lost brain

function? Those eating that way to treat multiple sclerosis? All the

diabetics throughout the history of the disease who cut carbohydrate intake

to survive, before the advent of pills and insulin? The brain can run fine

on ketones, once it adjusts, which takes a few days. Also, even those who

lower their carbohydrate intake are eating carbohydrates. It's impossible to

weed them completely out of one's diet. Our modern food supply is awash in

carbohydrates, because they're cheap to manufacture, have a long shelf life,

and for many of us are actually addicting, therefore ensuring good sales

prospects.

<< Cutting down on carbohydrates to reduce blood glucose would have been

like having a car that guzzles gasoline and solving the problem by putting

in less gasoline each time I tanked up. >>

No, , it would be like giving that old bomb a good tune-up. Yes, my

" car " ran on a high-carb diet - but very poorly. I had no energy, I was

moody, I frequently gave in to food cravings, I felt bloated, my diabetes

was not in good control, I had hypertension, low HDL, high LDL, very high

triglycerides, and elevated liver function. I had neuropathy, dizziness, a

clumsy gait, blurred vision, no strength. No matter how I tried, my weight

continued to climb. I got a " low-carb tune-up " and now I'm running fine!

Even my own sisters have trouble believing I'm diabetic now. My former

doctor called me " cured, " because she had never seen another patient improve

so dramatically.

<< I can see that drastically reduced carbohydrate input could be useful for

treating a diabetic with very bad control (like around 200 mg/dl fasting and

300-400 mg/dl after a meal, for example) in the short

term but as soon as that improves it would be time to get back to what the

ADA calls a " healthy meal plan " . >>

Just another illogical, overblown statement by . Why would lowering

carb intake be useful for someone with readings of 300-400, but not for

someone who experiences postprandial readings of 150-200? The goal for all

of us, after all, is to keep our readings close to 100, as much of the time

as possible.

, she asked for your personal experiences. Why must you insist on

alienating so many of us, who have demonstrated over and over how well we

are doing, with your overblown, sweeping statements that fly in the face of

studies we've published?

Susie [

[Guest guest]

Thornton wrote:

<< I was eating high-fat, high-protein, low carbohydrate meals for many

years before I was diagnosed with diabetes and it sure didn't do me any good

in that time and, in my opinion, a lot of harm. >>

Can you describe the harm that was done, such as giving your blood test

results from that time period? Can you describe your former diet in more

detail? Could the problem been merely one of eating too many calories, which

increased insulin resistance? In other words, I wonder if your present

health outcome would be any different if you had merely eaten less ...

Susie

[Guest guest]

On Wed, 24 Jan 2001 11:07:23 -0000 " Thornton "

writes:

> It must be those " other medical problems " that make him feel bad,

> Donna. You cannot rely on feeling bad from 240 mg/dl,

> unfortunately!

>

>

That's what I'm worried about is maybe there are other medical problems

we are not aware of. Damage from the diabetics, high blood pressure and

ashma. His sugar was 177 this morning but he was so cold and clammy to

the touch. I checked my sugar and it was 78. I told him are you happy

now, smile. Kept saying maybe your diabetic.

Donna

[Guest guest]

> Can you describe the harm that was done,

> such as giving your blood test results from

> that time period?

Sure. I had high total cholesterol (280 - 360 mg/dl), high LDL, low

HDL (50-70), high triglycerides for several years (1995-1999), took

lipid-lowering medication, but had no manifest diabetes (FBG 85 mg/dl

on 2 successive days, e.g. in 1986, 10% overweight), had several

vitamin, mineral and trace element deficiencies - and high blood

pressure and tachycardia and 22% overweight by 1996. Regular health

checks including blood tests at 3-monthly intervals since 1975.

Elevated FBG first in late 1997 (27% overweight) but not enough for a

diagnosis. Manifest diabetes and 30% overweight by late 1999.

> Can you describe your former diet in more

> detail?

Primarily meat, e.g. fried bacon and 2 fried eggs for breakfast

regularly with a glass of full-fat milk, chocolate during the day,

meat for lunch, e.g. grilled chicken including the skin, and dairy-

product dessert, meat for evening meal, e.g. roast pork, very small

portions of green vegetables and potatoes, thick mayonnaise on a

small salad, plenty of dairy products, in the evening I often had

nuts and chocolate as a late-night snack. My favorite late snack was

goose-liver pastries in France (foie gras) and fatty fish like tuna

and smoked salmon and smoked eels. You might call it living high on

the hog.

> Could the problem been merely one of eating

> too many calories, which increased insulin

> resistance?

I never worked it out then but I must have been taking too many

calories with so much fat (9 kcals per gram!) but not much too many

because it took me 12 years or so to put on the weight. The point is

that the best way to reduce calorie intake turned out to be cutting

out the fats because they have so much higher an energy value. Fats

gave me no feeling of being full whereas carbohydrates do. My meal

bulk was low but it was all high-energy stuff. Now my meal bulk is

higher but it is all low energy stuff - and I never feel hungry

whereas with the high fat meals I often did - hence the chocolate and

desserts.

> In other words, I wonder if your present

> health outcome would be any different if

> you had merely eaten less ...

There is no way of telling now but it is undoubtedly easier to eat

less in calories by cutting fat than it is by cutting the other two

because of the 9 kcals/gram ratio for fat. It is all connected - if I

hadn't been in the company I was in I probably wouldn't have taken a

liking to the fatty food, if I hadn't taken a liking to it I wouldn't

have eaten it, if I hadn't eaten it I wouldn't have had the

overweight, if I hadn't had the overweight I wouldn't have developed

diabetes Type 2 ...., if I hadn't changed my lifestyle I wouldn't

have reversed the process at least somewhat.

I can tell you without any doubt whatever that I preferred eating the

old way from a food enjoyment point of view but it wasn't working out

healthwise.

Hence the physicians and the nutritionists crying from the roof-tops:

Change your lifestyle completely! I am very glad I took notice of

them before it was too late. After I stopped eating the food I didn't

go into the stores that sell it, I didn't eat in the restaurants that

serve it up, I didn't meet the people I used to meet, I didn't go to

the vacation spots I used to go to, between meals I had different

activities - my schedule gradually changed up completely. Hence the

message if you are overweight - you are not going to make it unless

you change your lifestyle completely! I believe it now.

I am convinced that my overweight came first and caused my diabetes

and it wouldn't surprise me to find that the same applies to many

other people, too. It would be interesting to speculate how many of

us have eaten our way into a full-blown diabetes!

I don't expect you to agree, Susie, but there is no need to get

excited about it, is there? I am just describing my take on the

subject.

[Guest guest]

> is the BMI the same as the Ideal Body Fat

> Percentages the Drs. Eades discuss in their

> book " Protein Power " ?

No, Susie, BMI has nothing to do with " Ideal Body Fat Percentages " or

the Drs. Eades. BMI is the abbreviation for Body Mass Index and is

computed from weight in kilograms divided by the square of the height

in meters. It is given in kilograms per square meter and not in

percentage. It provides an internationally recognized measure of

health risk from overweight.

I gave the table relating BMI to health risk from " Shape Up,

America! " in a previous message. It is similar to the one used over

here.

> They say for males age 41-50, the range

> should be 14-20%; for males 51-60, it

> should be 16-20%; and for males 61+,

> it should be 17-21%.

As far as I can make out there is no generally agreed " Ideal Body Fat

Percentage " . The table I use for myself and the others who use the

scales is the one provided by Tanita, the manufacturer of my digital

bathroom scales (data supplied by Dr. med. U. Strunz of Medical

Supply Consultants GmbH, Munich).

In this table there are three values of fat percentage for each age

group, Good/Average/Elevated:

Men:

20-24 years: 14.9 / 19.0 / 23.3

25-29 years: 16.5 / 20.3 / 24.3

30-34 years: 18.0 / 21.5 / 25.2

35-39 years: 19.3 / 22.6 / 26.1

40-44 years: 20.5 / 23.6 / 26.9

45-49 years: 21.5 / 24.5 / 27.6

50-59 years: 22.7 / 25.6 / 28.7

>60 years: 23.2 / 26.2 / 29.3

Women:

20-24 years: 22.1 / 25.0 / 29.6

25-29 years: 22.0 / 25.4 / 29.8

30-34 years: 22.7 / 26.4 / 30.5

35-39 years: 24.0 / 27.7 / 31.5

40-44 years: 25.6 / 29.3 / 32.8

45-49 years: 27.3 / 30.9 / 34.1

50-59 years: 29.7 / 33.1 / 36.2

>60 years: 30.7 / 34.0 / 37.3

I hope that is some help to you.

[Guest guest]

> I worked on a cardiac/cancer floor, so I

> worked with lot of diabetics, since heart

> disease, and many cancers, like kidney, etc.

> are dm complications.

If you were a diabetic admitted to hospital with a cardiac or cancer

condition, Carol, would you insist on going to a ward that had

diabetes-trained staff?

On the German diabetes lists, I often read horror stories about

diabetes patients having their entire well-tried diabetes treatment

plan ignored by nurses and doctors who never had special diabetes

training but believed that they could easily handle " that little bit

of sugar " . It is common here for people on a public health care plan

to have their own insulin taken away from them because " we don't use

that kind here " .

I think that I would rather spend my time in a diabetes ward and have

them call in somebody from the heart or cancer departments.

When my wife was in the eye clinic of a general hospital in 1999 and

had what we now know were diabetic foot problems and I asked the

medical staff to call somebody in for it, we were told that it would

have to wait until they had finished with her eyes (cataract), then

she could leave the hospital, turn around and then get admitted again

for the foot problem " because we don't want those people coming in

here and throwing their weight about " . The eye people and the

neurological people didn't get on too well and there was always

trouble splitting up the billing afterwards, they told me.

[Guest guest]

Thornton wrote:

<< BMI is the abbreviation for Body Mass Index and is computed from weight

in kilograms divided by the square of the height in meters. >>

With such a vague measuring system, a muscular, large-boned athlete could

rate the same as an obese, out-of-shape individual. That's why the Drs.

Eades include, for men, wrist size and waist measurement, then subtract the

height. For women, they compute waist and hip measurements, then subtract

the height from that.

Susie

[Guest guest]

I worked the ADA diet for about 9 months after diagnosis. I counted carbs,

and averaged 12 servings a day. My blood sugar was routinely 120+ at

fasting, and 180+ post prandial. Additionally, I lost no weight.

In desperation I switched to Sugar Busters, hoping for better sugars and

some weight loss. I was amazed at how just changing to low glycemic carbs

made such a difference. Sugars came right down (dietitian didn't like it,

but tough) and I dropped 10 pounds.

Armed with that success, I decided to try the Atkins plan, fully expecting

that I would be absolutely miserable. After the first couple of weeks

(didn't go Induction, just to maintenance) the cravings went away, I learned

to eat at restaurants (this will do wonders for your self esteem, being able

to tell the wait staff what to bring, and what to leave in the kitchen!),

and got over the idea that DH could eat stuff that wasn't good for me

anymore. I dropped another 20 pounds, and got great control.

I GOT OFF THE MEDS!!!!!!!!

Now, I'm cutting back on calories. Cutting out the snacks associated with

the meds has helped a lot. I'm losing weight again, and still have good

sugars. I've been off the meds for 2 months, and my A1c is 5.7!

Give it a try. It doesn't work for everyone, but it works really well for a

lot of people. If it doesn't work for you, go back to the ADA. It'll still

be there.

Robin G.

>From: whimsy2@...

>Reply-To: diabetes_integroups

>To: diabetes_integroups

>Subject: Re: Question on how many carbs.

>Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 09:23:54 EST

>

>In a message dated 01-01-24 01:04:46 EST, you write:

>

><<

> Could those of you on the ADA diet comment on how it is working for you?

> >>

>Additionally, could those who tried the ADA diet then switched to a lowcarb

>diet comment too? A comparison would be good to read. V.

_________________________________________________________________

Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

[Guest guest]

Donna, you can go into almost any bookstore and order it. I had the

Bernstein book on my xmas list, and our local Walden books did not stock

it. (the larger Walden's might, but ours is a small store). Anyway, my

husband ordered it and it arrived at the bookstore in 5 days.

" Donna K. H. " wrote:

> No but I'm going to get the book real soon. In fact the other night Ron

> was looking for it at the book store we went but did not have it. Might

> have to look on the internet for it.

>

> Donna

> On Tue, 23 Jan 2001 19:46:41 EST whimsy2@... writes:

> > In a message dated 01-01-23 17:43:27 EST, you write:

> >

> > << I also told Ron he knows nothing about diabetes but that he will

> > start

> > educating himself so he is able to take care of himself >>

> >

> > Good for you, Donna! Now...do you have the Bernstein book yet???

> > Vicki

>

> eGroups Sponsor

[Get 3 CDs for ONLY $9.99!]

Get 3 CDs for ONLY $9.99!

>

> Public website for Diabetes International:

> http://www.msteri.com/diabetes-info/diabetes_int

>

> Post message: diabetes_integroups

> Subscribe: diabetes_int-subscribeegroups

> Unsubscribe: diabetes_int-unsubscribeegroups

> List owner: diabetes_int-owneregroups

>

> URL: /group/diabetes_int

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dar Robin,

It certainly makes me happy to hear how very well you are doing! I was in a

weight loss stall. Then suddenly - *whoosh* - 5.5 pounds in the past week!

Wheeeeee ...

Hugs,

Susie )