Re: Running out of ideas

[Guest guest]

Aubrey:

You are a well spring, and for that I thank you. You have no need for self flagellation (sp). No need to berate oneself for trying to cure this disease where and when regrettable decisions are made.

I realize there is a time differential between taking ADT, stopping and restarting that is long between results and when talking about Chemo. and its knowns, there is always the thought that when the decision comes for a person to need Chemo one should be schooled and ready. I believe none of us are?

ADT does one thing and Chemo does another.

From what I have read and understand (hopefully) that Taxatere used as a chemo drug has been very successful when used in conjunction with other meds to do something with progressed metastazised ca.?

This forum gives a place to vent our doubts and I will continue to post until someone says they have had enough. (there is always the big red X delete as someone has said. So it's anyones option).

I am truly sorry to hear about your eyesight and hope you get good results soon.

I am still in the throes of going for MRI's and questioning my contacts. My Radiation Oncologist at last weeks visit when asked if he could recommend a Medical Oncologist ( so I could get another opinion), insisted that there are three types of oncologists (I knew that), the Urologist who does surgery, the Radiation Oncologist (he reafirmed that he was just that) and a Medical Oncologist who administers Chemo Therapy. He did not have anything further to say about my request for a referral, so I have to assume this is standard procedure? He seems to believe medical oncologists just administer chemo? I just wish there was more of the 'team work' that a prior post from Kathy having said that the Cancer Society believes is what is supposed to happen when someone is diagnosed with PCa

To me and what I am presently going through, that just does not seem the case.

There are a number of postings suggesting newly diagnosed men should seek various centers and various doctors to ask and get answers for their particular need. What that says to me is that this disease calls for having the wherewithal and the physical ability to travel great distances, become more frustrated perhaps and hopefully achieve what one is looking for by finding someone interested enough to listen and do his doctoring? Some have been very lucky in finding facilities close to home. That's good.

You certainly have done your share of traveling and sharing your experiences is a good reason to keep reading this site.

The best to you.

My diagnostician says no surgery, ADT with some radiation to mets only, and watch the PSA.

Bill. 76 and holding.

Re: Re: Running out of ideas

Hi Alan,

Dr. Judah Folkman is the man who first discovered that

cancers provide a substance, angiogenesis substances,

to cause the body to build new blood vessels to supply them.

Because of his studies, we now have several anti-angiogenesis

drugs which do show some success.

Dr. Folkman also suggested that a primary tumor may have

some control over secondary tumors. How many times have

you heard of a many who had his prostate removed, then

almost immediately his PSA may go up because of the

secondary tumor. I am sorry but I don't have any studies at

hand about this.

My point is that with a Gleason Score of 8 or more, very

often the cancer has already escaped the prostate and is

somewhere else in the body. So local therapy, such as

removal of the prostate. in many cases where there is a

high Gleason Score or PSA above 20 is not curative.

If it were me, and I had a very high PSA or Gleason, I would

opt for a regimen of Androgen Deprivation Therapy (ADT)

which would treat the cancer no matter where it is.

Again, this is my own opinion- you are responsible for your

own therapy. However, one should be well informed when

making a decision that will affect you for the rest of your life.

I wish you all the bestAubrey Pilgrim, DC (Ret.) Author ofA Revolutionary Approach to Prostate Cancer-Read the original book for FREE at: http://www.prostatepointers.org/prostate/lay/apilgrim/Read new edition for FREE at http://www.cancer.prostate-help.org/capilgr.htmDr. E. Crawford is co-author of the revision

In a message dated 11/25/2007 8:37:58 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, ameyer2 writes:

In ProstateCancerSupport , APilgrm@... wrote:> ...> Did the surgeon know that you had a Gleason Score of 8?> Did he urge you to have surgery? If so I think he is guilty> of malpractice. There are some who say that operating on> a high Gleason to debulk the tumor is helpful. But I believe> that it only adds to one's problems. Just my opinion- and> the fact that I have read about so many men who have > not seemed to have benefitted from debulking.> ...I don't believe that's true Aubrey. Gleason 8 tumors are indeed high risk. Treatment failures are common. But surgeries are also often successful. I don't knowthe success rates and different studies find differentrates. How good the odds are depends on pretreatmentPSA, age, and clinical stage as well as Gleason score,but I seem to recall seeing numbers ranging from 20%up to 70+%, depending on those other factors.Those aren't fabulous odds, but they're better than the odds one has without primary treatment.If I were a patient and were offered those odds, I knowI'd take my chances and hope for the best rather than refuse primary treatment.Alan

Check out AOL Money Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007.

[Guest guest]

Hi Bill,

Thank you very much for the kind words. I lived in the

Los Angeles area for several years. There are some

very good oncologists who treat prostate cancer. Two

of the best are Drs. Scholz and Leibowitz. Dr. Strum

was there for several years, but has now located in

Oregon. If you are near Seattle Dr. Celestia (Tia)

Higano is a very good oncologist who specializes in

treating prostate cancer. Of course there are many

others. I don't remember what part of the country

you live in but I am sure there is probably a good

prostate cancer oncologist near you.

Aubrey

Aubrey:

You are a well spring, and for that I thank you. You have no need for self flagellation (sp). No need to berate oneself for trying to cure this disease where and when regrettable decisions are made.

I realize there is a time differential between taking ADT, stopping and restarting that is long between results and when talking about Chemo. and its knowns, there is always the thought that when the decision comes for a person to need Chemo one should be schooled and ready. I believe none of us are?

ADT does one thing and Chemo does another.

From what I have read and understand (hopefully) that Taxatere used as a chemo drug has been very successful when used in conjunction with other meds to do something with progressed metastazised ca.?

This forum gives a place to vent our doubts and I will continue to post until someone says they have had enough. (there is always the big red X delete as someone has said. So it's anyones option).

I am truly sorry to hear about your eyesight and hope you get good results soon.

I am still in the throes of going for MRI's and questioning my contacts. My Radiation Oncologist at last weeks visit when asked if he could recommend a Medical Oncologist ( so I could get another opinion), insisted that there are three types of oncologists (I knew that), the Urologist who does surgery, the Radiation Oncologist (he reafirmed that he was just that) and a Medical Oncologist who administers Chemo Therapy. He did not have anything further to say about my request for a referral, so I have to assume this is standard procedure? He seems to believe medical oncologists just administer chemo? I just wish there was more of the 'team work' that a prior post from Kathy having said that the Cancer Society believes is what is supposed to happen when someone is diagnosed with PCa

To me and what I am presently going through, that just does not seem the case.

There are a number of postings suggesting newly diagnosed men should seek various centers and various doctors to ask and get answers for their particular need. What that says to me is that this disease calls for having the wherewithal and the physical ability to travel great distances, become more frustrated perhaps and hopefully achieve what one is looking for by finding someone interested enough to listen and do his doctoring? Some have been very lucky in finding facilities close to home. That's good.

You certainly have done your share of traveling and sharing your experiences is a good reason to keep reading this site.

The best to you.

My diagnostician says no surgery, ADT with some radiation to mets only, and watch the PSA.

Bill. 76 and holding

I wish you all the bestAubrey Pilgrim, DC (Ret.) Author ofA Revolutionary Approach to Prostate Cancer-Read the original book for FREE at: http://www.prostatepointers.org/prostate/lay/apilgrim/Read new edition for FREE at http://www.cancer.prostate-help.org/capilgr.htmDr. E. Crawford is co-author of the revisionCheck out AOL Money Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007.

[Guest guest]

Hi e,

Thank you for the kind words.

Several doctors have had very good success in treating a

patient for about a year with ADT, then have the patient

go off therapy and monitor the PSA. If it starts up again,

then go back on the ADT. In many cases, the one year

of ADT is all that is needed and the man will still have

his prostate and his libido and his prostate may recover

and produce testosterone again.

Drs. Scholz and Leibowitz have had some remarkable

successes with the ADT.

One of the problems is that there may be some cells

which learn to live without testosterone. When the hormone

dependent cells are killed, sometimes the hormone

independent cells take over. In that case there are several

chemotherapies which have worked well in many men.

I am not sure about stem cells.

I wish you all the bestAubrey Pilgrim, DC (Ret.) Author ofA Revolutionary Approach to Prostate Cancer-Read the original book for FREE at: http://www.prostatepointers.org/prostate/lay/apilgrim/Read new edition for FREE at http://www.cancer.prostate-help.org/capilgr.htmDr. E. Crawford is co-author of the revision

Hi Aubrey:An ADT question? Aubrey Wrote:"Prostate cancer thrives on testosterone, or a conversion oftestosterone to dihydrotestosterone (DHT). By depriving thecancer cells of testosterone, they will shrink up and die. Howeverthere are usually some cancer cells which learn to survive andpropagate without testosterone. These are the hormone independentcells which may kill a person."If the ADT deprives the cells of testosterone causing them to dieresulting in psa readings of < 0 over a period of time wouldn't thisimply a cure? It is my understanding that while the the cancer cellsare killed off aren't there some kind of stem cells remaining that cangrow into mature cancer cells? Can you elaborate on this? And thankyou for the work you are doing on our behalf!e

Check out AOL Money Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007.

[Guest guest]

Hi Aubrey:

An ADT question? Aubrey Wrote:

" Prostate cancer thrives on testosterone, or a conversion of

testosterone to dihydrotestosterone (DHT). By depriving the

cancer cells of testosterone, they will shrink up and die. However

there are usually some cancer cells which learn to survive and

propagate without testosterone. These are the hormone independent

cells which may kill a person. "

If the ADT deprives the cells of testosterone causing them to die

resulting in psa readings of < 0 over a period of time wouldn't this

imply a cure? It is my understanding that while the the cancer cells

are killed off aren't there some kind of stem cells remaining that can

grow into mature cancer cells? Can you elaborate on this? And thank

you for the work you are doing on our behalf!

e

>

>

>

> Hi WM,

>

> Several Antiangiogenesis drugs have been developed. If

> you remember the Thalidomide fiasco a few years ago,

> several babies were born to mothers who had taken the

> drug. It prevented the development of blood vessels so

> many babies were born without arms or legs.

>

> Dr. Bob Leibowitz now uses Thalidomide on his patients to

> help prevent the cancer from growing new blood vessels.

> Without the new blood vessels, a tumor cannot grow to any

> large size.

>

> There are several Antiangiogenesis drugs. I have macular

> degeneration where small blood vessels are growing in the

> retina of my right eye. I have periodic injections of a drug

> to prevent that growth. It does seem to be working.

>

> Prostate cancer thrives on testosterone, or a conversion of

> testosterone to dihydrotestosterone (DHT). By depriving the

> cancer cells of testosterone, they will shrink up and die. However

> there are usually some cancer cells which learn to survive and

> propagate without testosterone. These are the hormone independent

> cells which may kill a person.

>

> If a person on Androgen Deprivation Therapy (ADT) becomes

> hormone refractory, then the next step is to use chemotherapy.

> There are several drugs which can be used. Of course it is

> better to stop the cancer before it becomes hormone refractory,

> but the chemotherapy has been successful in many cases.

>

> Hope this helps- you can read more about this in my book listed

> below.

>

>

>

> I wish you all the best

>

> Aubrey Pilgrim, DC (Ret.) Author of

> A Revolutionary Approach to Prostate Cancer-Read the original book

> for FREE at: _http://www.prostatepointers.org/prostate/lay/apilgrim/_

> (http://www.prostatepointers.org/prostate/lay/apilgrim/)

> Read new edition for FREE at

> _http://www.cancer.prostate-help.org/capilgr.htm_

(http://www.cancer.prostate-help.org/capilgr.htm)

> Dr. E. Crawford is co-author of the revision

>

>

>

> In a message dated 11/26/2007 3:40:34 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,

> rbmoy@... writes:

>

>

>

>

> Aubrey:

> This is first time hearing of this angiogenesis. (just something

we don't

> readily think or ask about).

> With ADT in mind, would you please refer to your notes and explain

what the

> dif. is between an androgen depletion drug vs a chemo (which I

understand

> attacks the mets anywhere and is used post ADT regimen?)

> Thanx.

> WM.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's

hottest

> products.

>

(http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001)

>

[Guest guest]

I thought that androgen deprivation is simply analogous to a refrigerator, which inhibits, but does not kill the backteria in food.

Louis. . .

Re: Running out of ideas

Hi Aubrey:An ADT question? Aubrey Wrote:"Prostate cancer thrives on testosterone, or a conversion oftestosterone to dihydrotestosterone (DHT). By depriving thecancer cells of testosterone, they will shrink up and die. Howeverthere are usually some cancer cells which learn to survive andpropagate without testosterone. These are the hormone independentcells which may kill a person."If the ADT deprives the cells of testosterone causing them to dieresulting in psa readings of < 0 over a period of time wouldn't thisimply a cure? It is my understanding that while the the cancer cellsare killed off aren't there some kind of stem cells remaining that cangrow into mature cancer cells? Can you elaborate on this? And thankyou for the work you are doing on our behalf!e>> > > Hi WM,> > Several Antiangiogenesis drugs have been developed. If> you remember the Thalidomide fiasco a few years ago, > several babies were born to mothers who had taken the> drug. It prevented the development of blood vessels so > many babies were born without arms or legs.> > Dr. Bob Leibowitz now uses Thalidomide on his patients to> help prevent the cancer from growing new blood vessels. > Without the new blood vessels, a tumor cannot grow to any> large size. > > There are several Antiangiogenesis drugs. I have macular> degeneration where small blood vessels are growing in the> retina of my right eye. I have periodic injections of a drug> to prevent that growth. It does seem to be

working. > > Prostate cancer thrives on testosterone, or a conversion of> testosterone to dihydrotestosterone (DHT). By depriving the> cancer cells of testosterone, they will shrink up and die. However> there are usually some cancer cells which learn to survive and > propagate without testosterone. These are the hormone independent> cells which may kill a person.> > If a person on Androgen Deprivation Therapy (ADT) becomes> hormone refractory, then the next step is to use chemotherapy.> There are several drugs which can be used. Of course it is> better to stop the cancer before it becomes hormone refractory,> but the chemotherapy has been successful in many cases.> > Hope this helps- you can read more about this in my book listed> below.> > > > I wish you all the best> > Aubrey Pilgrim, DC (Ret.)

Author of> A Revolutionary Approach to Prostate Cancer-Read the original book > for FREE at: _http://www.prostate pointers. org/prostate/ lay/apilgrim/ _ > (http://www.prostate pointers. org/prostate/ lay/apilgrim/) > Read new edition for FREE at > _http://www.cancer. prostate- help.org/ capilgr.htm_(http://www.cancer. prostate- help.org/ capilgr.htm) > Dr. E. Crawford is co-author of the revision> > > > >

> > > > Aubrey: > This is first time hearing of this angiogenesis. (just somethingwe don't > readily think or ask about).> With ADT in mind, would you please refer to your notes and explainwhat the > dif. is between an androgen depletion drug vs a chemo (which Iunderstand > attacks the mets anywhere and is used post ADT regimen?) > Thanx. > WM. > > > > > > > > > > > ************ ********* ********* ********Check out AOL's list of 2007'shottest > products.>(http://money. aol.com/special/ hot-products- 2007?NCID= aoltop0003000000 0001)>

[Guest guest]

Hi e,

I have no information about stem cells in the prostate. If the

radiation and ADT killed the cancer cells, I am sure it would

have killed any stem cells.

If I were you, and my PSA has been undetectable for over

a year, I would definitely go off ADT. If you stay on it for

over two years, there is a chance that your testosterone

may never recover.

I wish you all the bestAubrey Pilgrim, DC (Ret.) Author ofA Revolutionary Approach to Prostate Cancer-Read the original book for FREE at: http://www.prostatepointers.org/prostate/lay/apilgrim/Read new edition for FREE at http://www.cancer.prostate-help.org/capilgr.htmDr. E. Crawford is co-author of the revision

Hi Aubrey:It was explained to me ,in the simplest of terms,as ADT "killing theleaves but the roots staying intact". From what I understand radiationis what is needed to kill the "roots" stem cells. In my personal caseI was diagnosed with a Gleason 9 w/ a psa of 18 at 50 years old. Testsalso showed it had very slightly penetrated the capsule. I started ADTand in about a month my psa was < 0. Wouldn't this imply the bulk ofthe cancer cells were killed off? I went on to receive HDRbrachytherapy to address the tumor in the prostate followed by EBRto address where it sneaked out.Isn't this all about killing the stem cells?It's been a year since I finished radiation. I am still on ADT, as myDr. is a belt and suspenders kind of guy. My psa has held @ <0. Iwill do 1 more Lupron shot then see what happens. (fingers and toescrossed!) The ADT will total 2 years. I have been advised to expect mypsa to rise a bit after stopping the ADT as I still have a (more orless) intact prostate. I guess I'll have to monitor things prettyclosely.I am quite hopefull we killed the beast. Wish me luck!Cheerse

Check out AOL Money Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007.

[Guest guest]

Hi Aubrey:

It was explained to me ,in the simplest of terms,as ADT " killing the

leaves but the roots staying intact " . From what I understand radiation

is what is needed to kill the " roots " stem cells. In my personal case

I was diagnosed with a Gleason 9 w/ a psa of 18 at 50 years old. Tests

also showed it had very slightly penetrated the capsule. I started ADT

and in about a month my psa was < 0. Wouldn't this imply the bulk of

the cancer cells were killed off? I went on to receive HDR

brachytherapy to address the tumor in the prostate followed by EBR

to address where it sneaked out.

Isn't this all about killing the stem cells?

It's been a year since I finished radiation. I am still on ADT, as my

Dr. is a belt and suspenders kind of guy. My psa has held @ <0. I

will do 1 more Lupron shot then see what happens. (fingers and toes

crossed!) The ADT will total 2 years. I have been advised to expect my

psa to rise a bit after stopping the ADT as I still have a (more or

less) intact prostate. I guess I'll have to monitor things pretty

closely.I am quite hopefull we killed the beast. Wish me luck!

Cheers

e

> " Prostate cancer thrives on testosterone, or a conversion of

> testosterone to dihydrotestosterone (DHT). By depriving the

> cancer cells of testosterone, they will shrink up and die. However

> there are usually some cancer cells which learn to survive and

> propagate without testosterone. These are the hormone independent

> cells which may kill a person. "

>

> If the ADT deprives the cells of testosterone causing them to die

> resulting in psa readings of < 0 over a period of time wouldn't this

> imply a cure? It is my understanding that while the the cancer cells

> are killed off aren't there some kind of stem cells remaining that can

> grow into mature cancer cells? Can you elaborate on this? And thank

> you for the work you are doing on our behalf!

> e

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's

hottest

> products.

>

(http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001)

>

[Guest guest]

You are right based on what I have read is

recent research. Stem cells appear to be where PCa originates based on a

presentation I heard by Bill , s Hopkins, several years ago.

From an article last year:

At the

heart of every tumor, some researchers believe, lie a handful of aberrant stem

cells that maintain the malignant tissue.

The idea,

if right, could explain why tumors often regenerate even after being almost

destroyed by anticancer drugs. It also points to a different strategy for

developing anticancer drugs, suggesting they should be selected for lethality

to cancer stem cells and not, as at present, for their ability to kill just any

cells and shrink tumors.

" I think

this is one of the most interesting developments in cancer research in the last

five years, " says Weinberg, a cancer geneticist at the Whitehead

Institute in Cambridge, Mass. " I think more and more people are

accepting it and evidence is accumulating that cancer stem cells exist in a

variety of tumors. "

The idea

that cancer cells possess the same properties as stem cells has been around for

many years. Only recently have biologists developed techniques for identifying

stem cells and their presence in tumors.

http://www.fightprostatecancer.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle & id=7600

Unfortunaely based on this article, I am not sure that radiation

will eliminate the stem cells:

Development of new therapeutics.

Common anticancer treatments such as radiation and chemotherapy do not

eradicate the majority of CSCs (88,

89).

Several studies have shown that Ph+ CSCs can still be identified in

CML patients following imatinib mesylate treatment (90,

91).

CSC resistance to these therapeutics may be mediated by several stem

cell–related mechanisms, including replication quiescence, activation of

antiapoptotic pathways, and multi-drug transporter expression. Androgen

ablation therapies for invasive and metastatic prostate cancers may also spare

prostate CSCs (47).

Since mature prostate cells are dependent on androgen for viability, androgen

ablation results in a dramatic tumor regression. However, progression to HRPC

occurs quickly after treatment in nearly all patients. Many believe this is

because, unlike normal PSCs, the prostate CSC population is not dependent on

androgen for viability. Androgen ablation therapy may actually promote disease

progression by stimulating normally quiescent CSCs to repopulate the tumor with

primitive, blast-like androgen-independent cells. Research should therefore be

aimed at developing therapeutics that can selectively target the CSC population

rather than more differentiated prostate cancer cells. Clinical trials should

likewise be designed to measure drug efficacy by examining their ability to

eradicate CSCs rather than to measure bulk tumor regression.

Several

strategies have been employed to eradicate CSCs. One involves targeting stem

cell–signaling pathways to abrogate the self-renewal capacity of CSCs and

induce differentiation. An inhibitor of the Notch signaling pathway component,

ã-secretase has recently been shown to have activity against mammary

tumors that overexpress Notch1 (92,

93).

Treatment with Hedgehog pathway inhibitors such as cyclopamine, anti-Hedgehog

antibodies, and siRNAs against Gli have also been shown to abrogate the growth

of medulloblastoma and prostate cancer in murine models (94–96).

The challenge of these therapeutic approaches, however, is sparing normal

tissue stem cells that utilize these pathways.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi? & pubmedid=17671638

I do not

want to frighten you but you might want to begin to investigate some of the

clinical trials. You might benefit from some of the novel therapies coming down

the pike. As you know your cancer appears to be one of the more aggressive types

so you need to fight it aggressively. You are young. We have to remember that

there is no one size fits all for prostate cancer.

I have a

friend who had stats similar to yours when he was in his 50’s. He took

part in an early vaccine trial and he still alive and fighting in his late 60’s.

Don’t give up hope and keep looking for options.

Kathy

From:

ProstateCancerSupport

[mailto:ProstateCancerSupport ] On Behalf Of e

Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007

11:36 AM

To:

ProstateCancerSupport

Subject:

Re: Running out of ideas

Hi Aubrey:

It was explained to me ,in the simplest of terms,as ADT " killing the

leaves but the roots staying intact " . From what I understand radiation

is what is needed to kill the " roots " stem cells. In my personal case

I was diagnosed with a Gleason 9 w/ a psa of 18 at 50 years old. Tests

also showed it had very slightly penetrated the capsule. I started ADT

and in about a month my psa was < 0. Wouldn't this imply the bulk of

the cancer cells were killed off? I went on to receive HDR

brachytherapy to address the tumor in the prostate followed by EBR

to address where it sneaked out.

Isn't this all about killing the stem cells?

It's been a year since I finished radiation. I am still on ADT, as my

Dr. is a belt and suspenders kind of guy. My psa has held @ <0. I

will do 1 more Lupron shot then see what happens. (fingers and toes

crossed!) The ADT will total 2 years. I have been advised to expect my

psa to rise a bit after stopping the ADT as I still have a (more or

less) intact prostate. I guess I'll have to monitor things pretty

closely.I am quite hopefull we killed the beast. Wish me luck!

Cheers

e

[Guest guest]

Kathy,

Did you read his letter? He said his PSA was 0. I assumed

he meant it was undetectable. Why would he stay on ADT

if his PSA has been undetecable for two years? Staying

on ADT for over two years may cause his testes to stop

producing testosterone.

I wish you all the bestAubrey Pilgrim, DC (Ret.) Author ofA Revolutionary Approach to Prostate Cancer-Read the original book for FREE at: http://www.prostatepointers.org/prostate/lay/apilgrim/Read new edition for FREE at http://www.cancer.prostate-help.org/capilgr.htmDr. E. Crawford is co-author of the revision

Aubrey,

What is the reason for recovery of testosterone for a man like e with a potentially aggressive PCa? If there is no clinical advantage should he look to ways to control the cancer?

Kathy

From: ProstateCancerSupport [mailto:ProstateCancerSupport ] On Behalf Of APilgrmaolSent: Friday, November 30, 2007 1:17 PMTo: ProstateCancerSupport ; Sxbike@...Subject: Re: Re: Running out of ideas

Hi e,

I have no information about stem cells in the prostate. If the

radiation and ADT killed the cancer cells, I am sure it would

have killed any stem cells.

If I were you, and my PSA has been undetectable for over

a year, I would definitely go off ADT. If you stay on it for

over two years, there is a chance that your testosterone

may never recover.

I wish you all the bestAubrey Pilgrim, DC (Ret.) Author ofA Revolutionary Approach to Prostate Cancer-Read the original book for FREE at: http://www.prostatepointers.org/prostate/lay/apilgrim/Read new edition for FREE at http://www.cancer.prostate-help.org/capilgr.htmDr. E. Crawford is co-author of the revision

Hi Aubrey:It was explained to me ,in the simplest of terms,as ADT "killing theleaves but the roots staying intact". From what I understand radiationis what is needed to kill the "roots" stem cells. In my personal caseI was diagnosed with a Gleason 9 w/ a psa of 18 at 50 years old. Testsalso showed it had very slightly penetrated the capsule. I started ADTand in about a month my psa was < 0. Wouldn't this imply the bulk ofthe cancer cells were killed off? I went on to receive HDRbrachytherapy to address the tumor in the prostate followed by EBRto address where it sneaked out.Isn't this all about killing the stem cells?It's been a year since I finished radiation. I am still on ADT, as myDr. is a belt and suspenders kind of guy. My psa has held @ <0. Iwill do 1 more Lupron shot then see what happens. (fingers and toescrossed!) The ADT will total 2 years. I have been advised to expect mypsa to rise a bit after stopping the ADT as I still have a (more orless) intact prostate. I guess I'll have to monitor things prettyclosely.I am quite hopefull we killed the beast. Wish me luck!Cheerse

Check out AOL Money Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007.

[Guest guest]

Aubrey,

What is the reason for recovery of testosterone

for a man like e with a potentially aggressive PCa? If there is no

clinical advantage should he look to ways to control the cancer?

Kathy

From: ProstateCancerSupport

[mailto:ProstateCancerSupport ] On Behalf Of APilgrm@...

Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007

1:17 PM

To:

ProstateCancerSupport ; Sxbike@...

Subject: Re:

Re: Running out of ideas

Hi e,

I have no information about stem cells in

the prostate. If the

radiation and ADT killed the cancer

cells, I am sure it would

have killed any stem cells.

If I were you, and my PSA has been

undetectable for over

a year, I would definitely go off ADT. If

you stay on it for

over two years, there is a chance that

your testosterone

may never recover.

I wish

you all the best

Aubrey Pilgrim, DC (Ret.) Author of

A Revolutionary Approach to Prostate Cancer-Read the original book

for FREE at: http://www.prostatepointers.org/prostate/lay/apilgrim/

Read new edition for FREE at http://www.cancer.prostate-help.org/capilgr.htm

Dr. E. Crawford is co-author of the revision

In a message dated 11/30/2007 8:36:43

A.M. Pacific Standard Time, sxbike@... writes:

Hi Aubrey:

It was explained to me ,in the simplest of terms,as ADT " killing the

leaves but the roots staying intact " . From what I understand radiation

is what is needed to kill the " roots " stem cells. In my personal case

I was diagnosed with a Gleason 9 w/ a psa of 18 at 50 years old. Tests

also showed it had very slightly penetrated the capsule. I started ADT

and in about a month my psa was < 0. Wouldn't this imply the bulk of

the cancer cells were killed off? I went on to receive HDR

brachytherapy to address the tumor in the prostate followed by EBR

to address where it sneaked out.

Isn't this all about killing the stem cells?

It's been a year since I finished radiation. I am still on ADT, as my

Dr. is a belt and suspenders kind of guy. My psa has held @ <0. I

will do 1 more Lupron shot then see what happens. (fingers and toes

crossed!) The ADT will total 2 years. I have been advised to expect my

psa to rise a bit after stopping the ADT as I still have a (more or

less) intact prostate. I guess I'll have to monitor things pretty

closely.I am quite hopefull we killed the beast. Wish me luck!

Cheers

e

Check out AOL Money Finance's list of the

hottest

products and top

money wasters of 2007.

[Guest guest]

Yes I did. He was diagnosed with a Gleason 9 w/ a psa of 18 at 50 years old. I don’t think

return of testosterone would be the big issue but trying intermittent is

probably a good reason but for other reasons. It will tell him how

quickly his PSA will come back up and give his body a rest. He is

planning on going intermittent at 2 years. Nobody knows what will happen

when he stops ADT. If his PSA stays down long enough for his testosterone to

recover that is a good thing but the control of his disease is also very

important.

Kathy

From: APilgrm@...

Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007

8:30 PM

To:

ProstateCancerSupport ; kmeadelist@...

Subject: Re:

Re: Running out of ideas

Kathy,

Did you read his letter? He said his PSA

was 0. I assumed

he meant it was undetectable. Why would

he stay on ADT

if his PSA has been undetecable for two

years? Staying

on ADT for over two years may cause his

testes to stop

producing testosterone.

I wish

you all the best

Aubrey Pilgrim, DC (Ret.) Author of

A Revolutionary Approach to Prostate Cancer-Read the original book

for FREE at: http://www.prostatepointers.org/prostate/lay/apilgrim/

Read new edition for FREE at http://www.cancer.prostate-help.org/capilgr.htm

Dr. E. Crawford is co-author of the revision

In a message dated 11/30/2007 2:58:03

P.M. Pacific Standard Time, kmeadelist@... writes:

Aubrey,

What is the reason for recovery of testosterone for a man

like e with a potentially aggressive PCa? If there is no clinical

advantage should he look to ways to control the cancer?

Kathy

From:

ProstateCancerSupport [mailto:ProstateCancerSupport ]

On Behalf Of APilgrmaol

Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007

1:17 PM

To: ProstateCancerSupport ;

Sxbike@...

Subject: Re:

Re: Running out of ideas

Hi e,

I have no information about stem cells in the prostate. If

the

radiation and ADT killed the cancer cells, I am sure it would

have killed any stem cells.

If I were you, and my PSA has been undetectable for over

a year, I would definitely go off ADT. If you stay on it for

over two years, there is a chance that your testosterone

may never recover.

I wish you

all the best

Aubrey Pilgrim, DC (Ret.) Author of

A Revolutionary Approach to Prostate Cancer-Read the original book

for FREE at: http://www.prostatepointers.org/prostate/lay/apilgrim/

Read new edition for FREE at http://www.cancer.prostate-help.org/capilgr.htm

Dr. E. Crawford is co-author of the revision

In a message dated 11/30/2007 8:36:43 A.M. Pacific Standard

Time, sxbike@... writes:

Hi Aubrey:

It was explained to me ,in the simplest of terms,as ADT " killing the

leaves but the roots staying intact " . From what I understand radiation

is what is needed to kill the " roots " stem cells. In my personal case

I was diagnosed with a Gleason 9 w/ a psa of 18 at 50 years old. Tests

also showed it had very slightly penetrated the capsule. I started ADT

and in about a month my psa was < 0. Wouldn't this imply the bulk of

the cancer cells were killed off? I went on to receive HDR

brachytherapy to address the tumor in the prostate followed by EBR

to address where it sneaked out.

Isn't this all about killing the stem cells?

It's been a year since I finished radiation. I am still on ADT, as my

Dr. is a belt and suspenders kind of guy. My psa has held @ <0. I

will do 1 more Lupron shot then see what happens. (fingers and toes

crossed!) The ADT will total 2 years. I have been advised to expect my

psa to rise a bit after stopping the ADT as I still have a (more or

less) intact prostate. I guess I'll have to monitor things pretty

closely.I am quite hopefull we killed the beast. Wish me luck!

Cheers

e

Check

out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest

products and top

money wasters of 2007.

[Guest guest]

Thank you all for your thoughtful comments. First off, I want my

testosterone back! I want to feel normal again. The plan is to go

completely off ADT after a total a total of almost 2 years pre and

post radiation. The docs and I are reasonably confident we have " slain

the beast " . As I said in an earlier post after I go off the ADT I

should expect my psa to go up to 0.5 or so and (hopefully!) stay

there! If it doesn't, we'll cross that bridge when we get to it.

Cheers

e

>

> Yes I did. He was diagnosed with a Gleason 9 w/ a psa of 18 at 50

years old.

> I don't think return of testosterone would be the big issue but trying

> intermittent is probably a good reason but for other reasons. It

will tell

> him how quickly his PSA will come back up and give his body a rest.

He is

> planning on going intermittent at 2 years. Nobody knows what will

happen

> when he stops ADT. If his PSA stays down long enough for his

testosterone to

> recover that is a good thing but the control of his disease is also very

> important.

>

>

>

> Kathy

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> _____

>

> From: APilgrm@...

> Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 8:30 PM

> To: ProstateCancerSupport ; kmeadelist@...

> Subject: Re: Re: Running out of ideas

>

>

>

> Kathy,

>

>

>

> Did you read his letter? He said his PSA was 0. I assumed

>

> he meant it was undetectable. Why would he stay on ADT

>

> if his PSA has been undetecable for two years? Staying

>

> on ADT for over two years may cause his testes to stop

>

> producing testosterone.

>

>

>

>

>

> I wish you all the best

>

> Aubrey Pilgrim, DC (Ret.) Author of

> A Revolutionary Approach to Prostate Cancer-Read the original book

> for FREE at: http://www.prostatepointers.org/prostate/lay/apilgrim/

> Read new edition for FREE at

http://www.cancer.prostate-help.org/capilgr.htm

> Dr. E. Crawford is co-author of the revision

>

>

>

>

>

> In a message dated 11/30/2007 2:58:03 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,

> kmeadelist@... writes:

>

> Aubrey,

>

> What is the reason for recovery of testosterone for a man like

e with a

> potentially aggressive PCa? If there is no clinical advantage should

he look

> to ways to control the cancer?

>

> Kathy

>

>

>

> _____

>

>

> From: ProstateCancerSupport

> [mailto:ProstateCancerSupport ] On Behalf Of APilgrm@...

> Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 1:17 PM

> To: ProstateCancerSupport ; Sxbike@...

> Subject: Re: Re: Running out of ideas

>

> Hi e,

>

> I have no information about stem cells in the prostate. If the

>

> radiation and ADT killed the cancer cells, I am sure it would

>

> have killed any stem cells.

>

> If I were you, and my PSA has been undetectable for over

>

> a year, I would definitely go off ADT. If you stay on it for

>

> over two years, there is a chance that your testosterone

>

> may never recover.

>

> I wish you all the best

>

> Aubrey Pilgrim, DC (Ret.) Author of

> A Revolutionary Approach to Prostate Cancer-Read the original book

> for FREE at: http://www.prostate

> <http://www.prostatepointers.org/prostate/lay/apilgrim/>

> pointers.org/prostate/lay/apilgrim/

> Read new edition for FREE at http://www.cancer.

> <http://www.cancer.prostate-help.org/capilgr.htm>

> prostate-help.org/capilgr.htm

> Dr. E. Crawford is co-author of the revision

>

> In a message dated 11/30/2007 8:36:43 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,

> sxbike@... writes:

>

> Hi Aubrey:

> It was explained to me ,in the simplest of terms,as ADT " killing the

> leaves but the roots staying intact " . From what I understand radiation

> is what is needed to kill the " roots " stem cells. In my personal case

> I was diagnosed with a Gleason 9 w/ a psa of 18 at 50 years old. Tests

> also showed it had very slightly penetrated the capsule. I started ADT

> and in about a month my psa was < 0. Wouldn't this imply the bulk of

> the cancer cells were killed off? I went on to receive HDR

> brachytherapy to address the tumor in the prostate followed by EBR

> to address where it sneaked out.

> Isn't this all about killing the stem cells?

> It's been a year since I finished radiation. I am still on ADT, as my

> Dr. is a belt and suspenders kind of guy. My psa has held @ <0. I

> will do 1 more Lupron shot then see what happens. (fingers and toes

> crossed!) The ADT will total 2 years. I have been advised to expect my

> psa to rise a bit after stopping the ADT as I still have a (more or

> less) intact prostate. I guess I'll have to monitor things pretty

> closely.I am quite hopefull we killed the beast. Wish me luck!

> Cheers

> e

>

>

>

>

>

> _____

>

> Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest

>

<http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001>

> products and top

>

<http://money.aol.com/top5/general/ways-you-are-wasting-money?NCID=aoltop000

> 30000000002> money wasters of 2007.

>

[Guest guest]

>

> Thank you all for your thoughtful comments. First off, I want

> my testosterone back! I want to feel normal again. The plan is

> to go completely off ADT after a total a total of almost 2

> years pre and post radiation. The docs and I are reasonably

> confident we have " slain the beast " . As I said in an earlier

> post after I go off the ADT I should expect my psa to go up to

> 0.5 or so and (hopefully!) stay there! If it doesn't, we'll

> cross that bridge when we get to it.

Sounds like an excellent plan e.

Even if it turns out that you haven't slain the beast, it's seems

to me to be a good idea to get off ADT and find out. If you have

to get back on, you'll at least know why you need to, instead of

just doing it on speculation.

There is some evidence that being on ADT for a long period after

radiation offers a higher rate of cure, but I'm not aware of any

data to show that the long period needs to be longer than two

years.

Best of luck.

Alan