Re: Re: My first posting to the GB list

[Guest guest]

Hi,

I had my gallbladder removed in Sept. 2001. Ultrasound had revealed a

couple small stones and sludge. However, one week after surgery (and I

had stopped taking pain medication) I continued to have excruciating

" attack's " !!! Most likely, there was a stone in my common bile duct,

that had not been detected during surgery, and my doctor said I'd need

to come in for another procedure! That's when I found this group. I've

since done five liver cleanses (at two week intervals) and painlessly

passed hundreds of stones! I used Dr. 's recipe(includes epsom). I

can't imagine how a liver cleanse could cause someone to " need " an

emergency procedure. The pain experienced during an attack is caused by

your body trying to pass a stone. The liver cleanse really does a good

job of flushing out the bile ducts, and I've never heard of anyone

being worse off for doing one. Some people have had limited success,

but that might depend on how acute their situation is, how well they

followed directions, or how " healthy " they are to begin with. It is

recommended that you do a parasite and kidney cleanse first.

After the second cleanse I was out of pain and discomfort. Now, except

for the horrible memory of surgery and pain as well as the visible

scars, I'd never know I'd been through such a terrible ordeal. Yet, how

I wish I'd known about the cleanse six months sooner, before my

condition had become acute. I know that my body and digestive system

have had an added strain put on them now that I no longer have my GB. I

don't know yet what the long term effects will be. I've made some

dietary changes, those recommended on this board and on this website.

Hopefully, eating right will lessen the stress by slowing down or

halting the stone making process. I also receive regular chiropractic

care.

I chose Dr. 's cleanse because it seemed the simplest to do...and

I wanted to do something quickly because I was in so much pain.

Before surgery, I'd asked my doctor if there were alternate solutions,

if stones could be disolved. He said there were some, but they weren't

permanent solutions because my body would continue to make stones.

What he didn't say was that dietary changes could effect the stone

making process. And of course, he never mentioned the liver cleanse.

I'm not knowledgable enough to answer some of your questions...Barry

did a great job. I'd encourage you, when you have time, to weed

through the testimonials, and all the links on this website. I'm still

reading!

On a side note: my younger sister (43) called last night, saying she

was experiencing what she thought was a GB attack. I've sent her this

website, etc. and she's doing the cleanse this evening. I'll let you

know how it goes for her. Hopefully she'll avoid being the third

sister to have her GB removed.

Adrienne

--- barry91162 <barry91162@...> wrote:

> Hi Ira,

> Let me try and incourage you in some way. I can only relate my

> experience to you. I am sold on the liver/gallbladder cleanse by Dr.

> instead of the alternative which is to remove a God-given organ

>

> that can be restored to proper working order. I would try that first

> before eliminating a vital digestive organ.

> I will try and answer your questions betwwen your paragraphs.

>

>

>

> > I am a bit apprehensive of posting while I am still so new to the

> list, but

> > I understand that each of you was new at one time. I have some

> questions

> > that I would like answered, and ask your indulgence if they have

> been

> > answered time and time again for each new member.

> >

> WE ALL HAVE QUESTIONS. SOMETIMES OVER AND OVER AGAIN. THE ONLY REASON

>

> TO BE APOLOGETIC OF A QUESTION IS ONE THAT YOU ARE AFRAID TO ASK.

> WE HAVE ALL BEEN THERE.

>

>

> > In brief, I seem to have two small GB stones (as revealed in some

> of the

> > ultrasound scans) and have suffered from several attacks, which are

>

> not

> > typical GB attacks, as I understand them. I am doing further

> testing.

> >

> I HAVE THE SAME THING. ULTRASOUND SHOWS WHITE STONE 1 CM IN SIZE.

> ATTACKS CAME AT NIGHT, 2-3 HOURS AFTER EATING, AND LASTED FOR 2-3

> HOURS. ABOUT 2-3 TIMES PER WEEK. WHY DO YOU THINK YOUR ATTACKS ARE

> NOT TYPICAL?

>

>

> > The idea of flushing as an alternative to an operation is of course

>

> appealing.

> >

> > From what I have seen, the recommended treatments consist

> basically of

> > lemon juice and olive oil, in various quantities, plus Epsom

> salts. And

> > the duration of the treatments seems to vary from one day to 21

> days.

> >

> > I would like to understand the function of each of these

> substances. Would

> > I be correct in assuming that the olive oil causes the GB to

> contract, and

> > the lemon juice dilates the passages? Do the Epsom salts perform

> any

> > function in addition to acting as a laxative? Are they really

> necessary,

> > in view of the fact that some treatments leave them out? Does any

> of the

> > substances open the sphincters?

>

> FROM MY EXPERIENCE, THE EPSOM SALTS ACT AS A LAXATIVE AND ALSO ASSIST

>

> THE BILE DUCT LEADING FROM THE LIVER AND GALLBLADDER TO OPEN MORE.

> NOT ONLY WILL YOU CLEAN YOUR STOMACH, INTESTINES, AND BOWEL BUT YOU

> WILL FEEL GREAT FROM THE ELIMINATION OF A LOT OF SLUDGE AND TOXINS

> ALONG YOUR ENTIRE DIGESTIVE SYSTEM.

> JUST BY DRINKING THE SALTS, BEFORE THE OIL MIXTURE, I PASSED A LOT OF

>

> SLUDGE AND STONES FROM MY LIVER AND DUCTS AS WELL.

>

> THE OIL/JUICE MIXTURE WILL CAUSE YOUR GB TO CONTRACT AND BILE TO

> ELIMINATE SLUDGE AND STONES FROM YOUR GB AND LIVER AS WELL. I USE

> GRAPEFRUIT JUICE BECAUSE IT TASTES BETTER. THE OIL AND JUICE COATS

> THE STONES ALSO FOR MORE EASY PASSAGE THROUGH THE DUCTS.

>

>

> >

> > Some treatments add apple juice, beets, herbs and sleeping pills,

> and

> > perhaps other substances that I have not yet become aware of. What

>

> purpose

> > do these serve; which are essential and which can be safely

> omitted?

>

> DIETING IS THE BEST THING FOR YOUR BODY. ONCE YOU HAVE DECIDED TO

> CLEANSE YOUR SYSTEM YOU SHOULD ALSO HAVE CHANGED YOUR DIET TO LIVE

> MORE HEALTHY. HERBS, VEGGIES, FRUITS, NON-FAT, ETC. YOUR DIETING IS

> THE MOST IMPORTANT TOOL YOU HAVE IN PREVENTING FUTURE STONES AND ALSO

>

> IT ASSIST IN BREAKING DOWN THE HARD STONES THAT YOU ALREADY HAVE.

> OVER TIME, YOUR BODY WILL FUNCTION WELL AGAIN. COULD TAKE MONTHS OR

> YEARS. EVERYONE IS DIFFERENT. CLEANING OUT YEARS OF TOXINS FROM YOUR

> BODY DOESN'T HAPPEN OVER NGHT. YOUR DIET CHANGE MUST BECOME A WAY OF

> LIFE.

>

>

> >

> > Is there general agreement in the medical community that GB stones

> are

> > indeed formed in the liver rather than in the gall bladder?

>

> YES, I BELIEVE IT IS. ONLY BECAUSE OF THE FACT THAT PEOPLE WHO HAVE

> HAD THEIR GB OUT STILL PRODUCE LIVER STONES. FROM WHAT I UNDERSTAND,

> STONES FORM IN THE LIVER AND THEN ROLL DOWN INTO THE GALLBLADDER. IF

> THEY GROW BIGGER THERE, THEY WILL BE HARDER TO ELIMINATE. PAIN

> RESULTS FROM STONES IN THE GB TRYING TO PASS OUT OF THE GB THROUGH

> THE SMALL DUCTS LEADING INTO THE INTESTINE.

>

> >

> > What percentage of those who have tried the flushing methods have

> achieved

> > a cure? I ask this particularly of those who subscribe to this

> list. Have

> > there been any subscribers who left the group because the methods

> did not

> > avail? What percentage of those who tried GB flushing have gone on

>

> to have

> > an operation anyway? Did anyone need an emergency procedure

> *because* of

> > the flushing?

>

> MY FIRST FLUSH ELIMINATED 30-40 STONES. MY SECOND FLUSH, TWO WEEKS

> LATER, ELIMINATED 70-80 STONES. I WILL DO AT LEAST FIVE AND THEN TWO

> PER YEAR MAINTENANCE. NO ONE HAS HAD EMERGENCY OPERATIONS AFTER A

> FLUSH FROM WHAT I HAVE HEARD. THE STONES ARE SOFTENED AND COATED WITH

>

> THE OIL, THE DUCTS ARE OPEN BECAUSE OF THE SALTS. YOU CAN FEEL THE

> STONES LEAVING BUT IT DOESN'T HURT. I HAVE HEARD OF SOMEONE SAYING

> THAT THE THOUGHT THEY HAD A STONE STUCK AND A LITTLE PAIN AFTER SO

> THEY DID ANOTHER MINI-FLUSH WHICH DID ELIMINATE THE PROBLEM STONE.

> THAT IS THE CLOSEST I'VE HEARD OF ANY PROBLEMS.

>

> IF THE FLUSH DOESN'T WORK, THE WORSE THING THAT COULD HAPPEN IS THAT

> YOU WOULD HAVE TO GO TO THE HOSPITAL AND HAVE THE GB REMOVED. EATING

> A PIECE OF PIZZA IS MORE DANGEROUS THAN THE PRECAUTIONS YOU TAKE

> WHILE FLUSHING. I WOULD DEFINITELY TRY ANYTHING BEFORE REMOVING A

> USEFUL DIGESTIVE ORGAN THAT CAN BE RECONDITIONED TO WORK PROPERLY

> AGAIN. UNLESS OF COURSE THE GB IS DAMAGED BEYOND REPAIR OR IS

> CANCEROUS.

>

>

> >

> > Have the group members found support or opposition from their

> > physicians? Have there been any articles written in medical

> journals

> > relating to gall bladder flushing? Favourable or opposed? Based

> on

> > controlled testing?

>

> DOCTORS CANNOT LEGALLY COMMENT ON PROCEDURES THAT HAVE NOT YET BEEN

> APPROVED BY THE AMA. THEY COULD LOOSE THEIR LICENSE IF THEY STICK

> THEIR NECKS OUT. OFF THE RECORD, MY DOCTOR SAID THAT HE HAS HEARD

> OF 'OLIVE OIL TREATMENTS' THAT HAVE BEEN SUCCESSFUL. HE COULD SAY NO

> MORE. I WOULD ALSO LIKE TO HEAR SOME JOURNALS COMMENTING ON THE

> METHODS.

>

>

> >

> > Is there any interest in dissolution of GB stones using the three

> specific

> > medications?

>

> LONG ACTING MEDICATIONS CAN TAKE ONE OR TWO YEARS TO WORK AND ONLY ON

>

> CHOLESTEROL STONES. MEDICATION IS SLOW AND EXPENSIVE. SINCE THIS IS

> THE ONLY 'APPROVED' METHOD, IT IS VERY SLOW ACTING AND WITH VERY

> MINIMAL RISKS TO THE MEDICAL FIELD.

>

>

>

> >

> > Do I understand correctly that stones lodged in the ducts cannot be

>

> > detected by ultrasound? Can they be detected by some other imaging

>

> > process? Or only by ERCP? Can the type of stone (cholesterol or

> bile) be

> > determined by imaging? If so, what imaging process?

>

> SOME CAN BE DETECTED BY ULTRASOUND WHEREAS OTHERS MAY NOT SHOW UP IN

> THE DUCTS AS WELL AS THE GB. FLUSHING WILL DEFINITELY CLEAR THE DUCTS

>

> BEFORE THE GB. IF THEY ARE SMALL ENOUGH TO GET INTO THE DUCTS THAN

> THEY WILL FLUSH VERY EASILY. THE DUCT IS ONLY 2MM WHEREAS A GB STONE

> CAN BE 1 - 2 CMS.

>

>

> >

> > I am looking forward to the responses of the group members.

>

> I HOPE THIS HELPS YOU IN SOME WAY. I HAVE DONE TWO FLUSHES AND

> HAVEN'T HAD AN ATTACK SINCE. I'M SOLD. I WILL CONTINUE AND SAVE MY

> ORGAN. I MUST SAY THAT DIETING HAS BEEN THE BIGGEST CHANGE I HAVE

> MADE. I HAVEN'T TESTED MY SUCCESS BY EATING A BIG DOMINOS PIZZA YET

> BUT I PROBABLY WON'T NEITHER NOW THAT I AM ENJOYING MY HEALTHY EATING

>

> SO MUCH. I DO EAT SOME FATS. EATING SMALL MEALS IS ALSO ALWAYS BETTER

>

>

=== message truncated ===

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

gallstones

From: Adrienne McLaughlin <adriennelynn1@...>

Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 00:38:49 -0800 (PST)

Subject: Re: Re: My first posting to the GB list

Reply-gallstones

Hi,

I had my gallbladder removed in Sept. 2001. Ultrasound had revealed a

couple small stones and sludge. However, one week after surgery (and I

had stopped taking pain medication) I continued to have excruciating

" attack's " !!! Most likely, there was a stone in my common bile duct,

that had not been detected during surgery, and my doctor said I'd need

to come in for another procedure! That's when I found this group. I've

since done five liver cleanses (at two week intervals) and painlessly

passed hundreds of stones! I used Dr. 's recipe(includes epsom). I

can't imagine how a liver cleanse could cause someone to " need " an

emergency procedure. The pain experienced during an attack is caused by

your body trying to pass a stone. The liver cleanse really does a good

job of flushing out the bile ducts, and I've never heard of anyone

being worse off for doing one. Some people have had limited success,

but that might depend on how acute their situation is, how well they

followed directions, or how " healthy " they are to begin with. It is

recommended that you do a parasite and kidney cleanse first.

After the second cleanse I was out of pain and discomfort. Now, except

for the horrible memory of surgery and pain as well as the visible

scars, I'd never know I'd been through such a terrible ordeal. Yet, how

I wish I'd known about the cleanse six months sooner, before my

condition had become acute. I know that my body and digestive system

have had an added strain put on them now that I no longer have my GB. I

don't know yet what the long term effects will be. I've made some

dietary changes, those recommended on this board and on this website.

Hopefully, eating right will lessen the stress by slowing down or

halting the stone making process. I also receive regular chiropractic

care.

I chose Dr. 's cleanse because it seemed the simplest to do...and

I wanted to do something quickly because I was in so much pain.

Before surgery, I'd asked my doctor if there were alternate solutions,

if stones could be disolved. He said there were some, but they weren't

permanent solutions because my body would continue to make stones.

What he didn't say was that dietary changes could effect the stone

making process. And of course, he never mentioned the liver cleanse.

I'm not knowledgable enough to answer some of your questions...Barry

did a great job. I'd encourage you, when you have time, to weed

through the testimonials, and all the links on this website. I'm still

reading!

On a side note: my younger sister (43) called last night, saying she

was experiencing what she thought was a GB attack. I've sent her this

website, etc. and she's doing the cleanse this evening. I'll let you

know how it goes for her. Hopefully she'll avoid being the third

sister to have her GB removed.

Adrienne

[Guest guest]

1/1/2002 3:38:49 AM, Adrienne McLaughlin <adriennelynn1@...> wrote:

>Before surgery, I'd asked my doctor if there were alternate solutions,

>if stones could be disolved. He said there were some, but they weren't

>permanent solutions because my body would continue to make stones.

>What he didn't say was that dietary changes could effect the stone

>making process. And of course, he never mentioned the liver cleanse.

Stand by for someone to come online and explain that your doctor

is not evil & uncaring just because he gave you callous & uncaring advice.

The truth of the matter is that the AMA, Quackwatch, and the money

grubbers concern themselves more with fat paychecks than health

for their patients. Far too many doctors who should be 100% concerned

with their patient's health tend to go along for the money ride.

I'm truly sorry you lost an important organ before you found out that

it didn't have to be that way. Hooray for you for coming here and telling

the truth so that others can be forewarned.

Regards,

Rex Harrill

[Guest guest]

>Is there general agreement in the medical community that GB stones

are

>indeed formed in the liver rather than in the gall bladder?

YES, I BELIEVE IT IS. ONLY BECAUSE OF THE FACT THAT PEOPLE WHO HAVE

HAD THEIR GB OUT STILL PRODUCE LIVER STONES. FROM WHAT I UNDERSTAND,

STONES FORM IN THE LIVER AND THEN ROLL DOWN INTO THE GALLBLADDER. IF

THEY GROW BIGGER THERE, THEY WILL BE HARDER TO ELIMINATE. PAIN

RESULTS FROM STONES IN THE GB TRYING TO PASS OUT OF THE GB THROUGH

THE SMALL DUCTS LEADING INTO THE INTESTINE. <<

From what I understand, there is NOT general agreement to this. My surgeon

explained to me that stones form in the liver only when there is a blockage

somewhere else. A stone blocking the bile duct, or many in the gallbladder,

cause bile to back up in the liver. There, stagnant, it can crystallize and

form stones. Folks who have their gallbladder out can have stones left in

the bile duct, if a cholangiogram is not done to check it out, and can have

just as many problems as before. I had a cholangiogram done, which showed

my ducts and liver to be stone-free. It has been over a year now, and I

have had no problems.

Even though I feel I have to say this every time I post, I will say it

again. I am not promoting surgery as a superior option to flushing,

dieting, etc., just relating a personal experience.

Debra

_________________________________________________________________

Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

[Guest guest]

Dear Debra,

I'd like to respond to a couple statements:

" Folks who have their gallbladder out can have stones left in

the bile duct, if a cholangiogram is not done to check it out, and can

have just as many problems as before. " and " My surgeon explained to me

that stones form in the liver only when there is a blockage somewhere

else. "

I've posted many times that I had my gallbladder removed in Sept., and

still had attacks after surgery. The pain was probably caused by a

stone in the common bile duct. Since then I've done 5 liver

cleanses-I'm doing my 6th this evening. I've passed probably close to

2000 stones. I'm assuming these stones came from my liver, not my

common bile duct-I don't think you would disagree, would you? I'd only

had gallbladder problems (that I was aware of) six months before my

surgery. Over that time, pain would come and go. It was only the two

weeks before surgery that I had continuous pain after eating. So I

don't know if I'd agree with the idea that stones are only formed in

the liver if there's a blockage somewhere else. Due to the number and

size of stones I've passed, I'd suspect that the stones in my liver

were there long before I ever had pain or a blockage. Wouldn't it be

nice if there were definitive/scientific research to prove that the

liver makes gallstones? Maybe it's out there.

I know you've posted before, but I can't remember if you've ever done a

liver cleanse. I've read testimonials, on other websites, written by

people who've had their gallbladders removed, who 8 to 15 years later

had " attacks " again...only to go the medical route, and have a doctor

tell them it must be something else causing their pain, because they've

already had their gallbladders removed! What I'm saying, is that just

because your are feeling well now (and it's great that you are!), does

not necessarily mean that you will never encounter a gallbladder-like

attack again, although you very well might not either.

Adrienne ;-)

--- D B <fairyflight@...> wrote:

>

> >Is there general agreement in the medical community that GB stones

> are

> >indeed formed in the liver rather than in the gall bladder?

>

> YES, I BELIEVE IT IS. ONLY BECAUSE OF THE FACT THAT PEOPLE WHO HAVE

> HAD THEIR GB OUT STILL PRODUCE LIVER STONES. FROM WHAT I UNDERSTAND,

> STONES FORM IN THE LIVER AND THEN ROLL DOWN INTO THE GALLBLADDER. IF

> THEY GROW BIGGER THERE, THEY WILL BE HARDER TO ELIMINATE. PAIN

> RESULTS FROM STONES IN THE GB TRYING TO PASS OUT OF THE GB THROUGH

> THE SMALL DUCTS LEADING INTO THE INTESTINE. <<

>

> From what I understand, there is NOT general agreement to this. My

> surgeon

> explained to me that stones form in the liver only when there is a

> blockage

> somewhere else. A stone blocking the bile duct, or many in the

> gallbladder,

> cause bile to back up in the liver. There, stagnant, it can

> crystallize and

> form stones. Folks who have their gallbladder out can have stones

> left in

> the bile duct, if a cholangiogram is not done to check it out, and

> can have

> just as many problems as before. I had a cholangiogram done, which

> showed

> my ducts and liver to be stone-free. It has been over a year now,

> and I

> have had no problems.

>

> Even though I feel I have to say this every time I post, I will say

> it

> again. I am not promoting surgery as a superior option to flushing,

> dieting, etc., just relating a personal experience.

>

> Debra

>

>

>

>

>

>

> _________________________________________________________________

> Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

>

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Hi Adrienne,

(Hope I spelled that right.)

Like I said, I was speaking from my experience.

>>I've passed probably close to

2000 stones.<<

I'm not disrespecting your experience, only expressing an opinion, but

numbers like that tend to make me skeptical of what it actually is. I don't

expect you to agree with me, and that's OK too. Like someone else said, we

should gather a lot of information, and choose what feels right.

Debra

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