Have you had Cryotherapy Treatment?

[Guest guest]

We don't see too many posts from PRc patients who have had

Cyrotherapy treatment. I went for a 2nd opinion this week, to

a young very capable and well known Florida Urologist surgeon

- who does Seedings, Davinci Robotics, and Cryotherpay. He told

me, in our discussion - " ... I actually have had much better

results with Cryo treatments, than with Seeding treatment " .

Less after-treatment complications and problems. This urologist

spends most of his time DOING TREATMENTS, a very busy treatment

practice. He's probably 40. His patients are more of the

younger crowd, vs retirement-age practices. Incidently, he

does a LOT of Davinci robotics surgery. He did a 58 YO friend

of ours - who made it thru wonderfully this past summer.

I was interested to learn they can do Cryotherpy more than

once. Also it is useful, for recurring PRc after a

previous radiation treatment.

The slick glossy cryotherapy treatment booklet - remarks that

modern Cryotherpy treatment - is just starting to build up a

very good 7-10 year data history, from patients.

I wonder if anyone who has had recent Cryotherapy treatment,

could post your experience with it, briefly. Just for our

education on that treatment, and you take on it?

I would like to learn real first hand, from some Cryotherapy

treated patients. How did it go? Was it a first treatment?

Thanks,

Fred O.

[Guest guest]

Cryo does not seem to be as widely used as other modalities such as

radiation and brachytherapy. Even Dr. Onik seems to be going off

in another direction. See:

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/63303.php

Fred, in your previous existence, it was suggested to you that you

visit Terry's YANA site. Have you done so?

Go here: http://www.yananow.net/Experiences.html#cryo

You can contact these men directly.

How is the hormone stuff going? Still no side effects?

One last comment: " ...slick glossy " booklets are usually sales

brochures.

--------------------------------------------------------

>

> We don't see too many posts from PRc patients who have had

> Cyrotherapy treatment. I went for a 2nd opinion this week, to

> a young very capable and well known Florida Urologist surgeon

> - who does Seedings, Davinci Robotics, and Cryotherpay. He told

> me, in our discussion - " ... I actually have had much better

> results with Cryo treatments, than with Seeding treatment " .

> Less after-treatment complications and problems. This urologist

> spends most of his time DOING TREATMENTS, a very busy treatment

> practice. He's probably 40. His patients are more of the

> younger crowd, vs retirement-age practices. Incidently, he

> does a LOT of Davinci robotics surgery. He did a 58 YO friend

> of ours - who made it thru wonderfully this past summer.

>

> I was interested to learn they can do Cryotherpy more than

> once. Also it is useful, for recurring PRc after a

> previous radiation treatment.

>

> The slick glossy cryotherapy treatment booklet - remarks that

> modern Cryotherpy treatment - is just starting to build up a

> very good 7-10 year data history, from patients.

>

> I wonder if anyone who has had recent Cryotherapy treatment,

> could post your experience with it, briefly. Just for our

> education on that treatment, and you take on it?

>

> I would like to learn real first hand, from some Cryotherapy

> treated patients. How did it go? Was it a first treatment?

>

> Thanks,

> Fred O.

>

[Guest guest]

Friend recently went to presentation for

physicians about current status of treatment for PCa. The physician who

presented on cryo was doing the procedure. He said according to her notes to

me:

compared cryotherapy and HIFU mentioning first that these are minimally

invasive therapies but are dependent on imaging technology -- ultrasound, MRI,

spectroscopy, and that both do tissue destruction. It is hard to control the

contour of prostate boundaries with the cryotherapy so there has been damage to

the rectum, bladder, urethral sphincter and neurovascular bundles, but more

advanced imaging, temperature monitoring, and better needle design has helped

decrease those complications. One complication is the 70-90% erectile dysfunction

Cryotherapy can be used for primary treatment and for salvage therapy

after radiation therapy. With the desire for more focal treatment the

improvement of cryotherapy will be more desirable.

That means for small tumors located in the

interior of the prostate they will be able to do a procedure similar to a

lumpectomy for breast cancer using cryo. There is interest in this now and we

should see more and more men opting for this option.

Can anyone verify the ED complication of

cryo? Are these statistics using old numbers based on the procedure prior to

the technique of cooling the urethra? Does anyone know about recent studies? With

focal treatment that would be less because they would not need to go as close

to the nerves. Skill appears to be a very important aspect in choosing a physician.

Kathy

From:

ProstateCancerSupport

[mailto:ProstateCancerSupport ] On Behalf Of Fuller

Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007

5:38 AM

To:

ProstateCancerSupport

Subject:

Re: Have you had Cryotherapy Treatment?

Cryo does not seem to be as widely used as other

modalities such as

radiation and brachytherapy. Even Dr. Onik seems to be going off

in another direction. See:

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/63303.php

Fred, in your previous existence, it was suggested to you that you

visit Terry's YANA site. Have you done so?

Go here: http://www.yananow.net/Experiences.html#cryo

You can contact these men directly.

How is the hormone stuff going? Still no side effects?

One last comment: " ...slick glossy " booklets are usually sales

brochures.

--------------------------------------------------------

>

> We don't see too many posts from PRc patients who have had

> Cyrotherapy treatment. I went for a 2nd opinion this week, to

> a young very capable and well known Florida Urologist surgeon

> - who does Seedings, Davinci Robotics, and Cryotherpay. He told

> me, in our discussion - " ... I actually have had much better

> results with Cryo treatments, than with Seeding treatment " .

> Less after-treatment complications and problems. This urologist

> spends most of his time DOING TREATMENTS, a very busy treatment

> practice. He's probably 40. His patients are more of the

> younger crowd, vs retirement-age practices. Incidently, he

> does a LOT of Davinci robotics surgery. He did a 58 YO friend

> of ours - who made it thru wonderfully this past summer.

>

> I was interested to learn they can do Cryotherpy more than

> once. Also it is useful, for recurring PRc after a

> previous radiation treatment.

>

> The slick glossy cryotherapy treatment booklet - remarks that

> modern Cryotherpy treatment - is just starting to build up a

> very good 7-10 year data history, from patients.

>

> I wonder if anyone who has had recent Cryotherapy treatment,

> could post your experience with it, briefly. Just for our

> education on that treatment, and you take on it?

>

> I would like to learn real first hand, from some Cryotherapy

> treated patients. How did it go? Was it a first treatment?

>

> Thanks,

> Fred O.

>

[Guest guest]

The only two downers with cryosurgery is the inability to perform post surgical pathology on the issue and that nerve sparing techniques are not fully developed or readilly available. The primary use for cryosurgery is salvage treatment after radiation therapy has failed. The pasty/waxy consistency of the gland after most forms of radiation treatment makes salvage surgery difficult to perform.

Louis. .

Have you had Cryotherapy Treatment?

We don't see too many posts from PRc patients who have hadCyrotherapy treatment. I went for a 2nd opinion this week, toa young very capable and well known Florida Urologist surgeon- who does Seedings, Davinci Robotics, and Cryotherpay. He toldme, in our discussion - "... I actually have had much betterresults with Cryo treatments, than with Seeding treatment".Less after-treatment complications and problems. This urologistspends most of his time DOING TREATMENTS, a very busy treatmentpractice. He's probably 40. His patients are more of theyounger crowd, vs retirement-age practices. Incidently, hedoes a LOT of Davinci robotics surgery. He did a 58 YO friendof ours - who made it thru wonderfully this past summer.I was interested to learn they can do Cryotherpy more thanonce. Also it is useful, for recurring PRc after aprevious radiation treatment.The slick glossy cryotherapy treatment

booklet - remarks thatmodern Cryotherpy treatment - is just starting to build up avery good 7-10 year data history, from patients.I wonder if anyone who has had recent Cryotherapy treatment,could post your experience with it, briefly. Just for oureducation on that treatment, and you take on it?I would like to learn real first hand, from some Cryotherapytreated patients. How did it go? Was it a first treatment?Thanks,Fred O.

[Guest guest]

HI Louis,

If a man has a recurrence after a local therapy such as

cryotherapy, then why would you want to do more local

therapy? It would seem to me that if a local therapy failed,

then one should search for a therapy that would treat a

wider area.

I wish you all the bestAubrey Pilgrim, DC (Ret.) Author ofA Revolutionary Approach to Prostate Cancer-Read the original book for FREE at: http://www.prostatepointers.org/prostate/lay/apilgrim/Read new edition for FREE at http://www.cancer.prostate-help.org/capilgr.htmDr. E. Crawford is co-author of the revision

The only two downers with cryosurgery is the inability to perform post surgical pathology on the issue and that nerve sparing techniques are not fully developed or readilly available. The primary use for cryosurgery is salvage treatment after radiation therapy has failed. The pasty/waxy consistency of the gland after most forms of radiation treatment makes salvage surgery difficult to perform.

Louis. .

See what's new at AOL.com and Make AOL Your Homepage.

[Guest guest]

From the YANA Web site:

" Definitive cryosurgery designed to destroy the entire gland results

in profound impotence. Frozen nerves don't recover. Partially frozen

nerves may still conduct a nerve impulse but failure to treat the

entire gland may spare tumor cells as well as sparing nerves. (This

is sometimes an issue with nerve sparing radical prostatectomy

surgery as well.) The nerve-sparing cryosurgery depends on being

certain, usually via saturation biopsy techniques and imaging, that

there is no tumor detectable on the side of the prostate where nerves

are to be spared. Dr. Onik in Celebration, Florida and Dr. Duke

Bahn can be consulted as experts in focal cryosurgery if nerve-

sparing is a possibility under discussion. Expert ultrasonographer

and cryosurgeon Dr. Fred Lee in Michigan says that if the patient is

potent when he's done with him, he hasn't done a good job. "

Fuller

-----------------------------------------

>

> Friend recently went to presentation for physicians about current

status of

> treatment for PCa. The physician who presented on cryo was doing the

> procedure. He said according to her notes to me:

>

>

>

> compared cryotherapy and HIFU mentioning first that these are

minimally

> invasive therapies but are dependent on imaging technology --

ultrasound,

> MRI, spectroscopy, and that both do tissue destruction. It is hard

to

> control the contour of prostate boundaries with the cryotherapy so

there has

> been damage to the rectum, bladder, urethral sphincter and

neurovascular

> bundles, but more advanced imaging, temperature monitoring, and

better

> needle design has helped decrease those complications. One

complication is

> the 70-90% erectile dysfunction

>

> Cryotherapy can be used for primary treatment and for salvage

therapy after

> radiation therapy. With the desire for more focal treatment the

improvement

> of cryotherapy will be more desirable.

>

>

>

> That means for small tumors located in the interior of the prostate

they

> will be able to do a procedure similar to a lumpectomy for breast

cancer

> using cryo. There is interest in this now and we should see more

and more

> men opting for this option.

>

>

>

> Can anyone verify the ED complication of cryo? Are these statistics

using

> old numbers based on the procedure prior to the technique of

cooling the

> urethra? Does anyone know about recent studies? With focal

treatment that

> would be less because they would not need to go as close to the

nerves.

> Skill appears to be a very important aspect in choosing a

physician.

>

>

>

> Kathy

>

>

>

> _____

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Fred.

I had Cryo in June of 2003 with a PSA of 9.5 and a gleason of 3+3=6 and staged T1c. I chose this therapy because the other ones I knew about would have created too much down time for me. My wife and I are foster parents for kids with disabilities and we share duties of what is a 24/7 obligation. If I was unable to help it would have created a problem. I had the procedure, stayed over night in the hospital and came home the next morning. I had a catheter in my bladder and a large bag for nights and a leg bag for day use. I strapped the small bag on the next day and went to the grocery store and did the shopping (my job) and resumed my normal role as babysitter and cook. We have a 10 yo girl with CP and she has to have 24 hour care. 7 days later the catheter came out of my stomach and I was continent and had a good urine stream.

90 days later my PSA was 1. Nine months later my PSA was 6.5. I am currently on ADT.

I guess all I can say is "Your mileage may vary."

"Life is a sexually transmitted disease that is invariably fatal." Anonymous

Have you had Cryotherapy Treatment?

[Guest guest]

Fuller,

I agree that cryo is not as widely used as other treatments. Neither

is proton treatment....

However, your statement that " even Dr. Onik seems to be going

off in another direction " is potentially misleading. The link you

provide refers to very experimental treatment that is only in the

first stages of research. Dr. Onik, as are many prostate experts,

continues to explore all avenues for improving treatment of prostate

cancer. However, this does not imply that he is abandoning his

practice of cryo as a currently very effective treatment for prostate

cancer with 'cure' rates equivalent to other treatments.

One of the drawbacks to modern cyro treating the entire gland is a

relatively high rate of impotence compared to nerve-sparing surgery

and brachytherapy. Cryo's perfomance with respect to other side

effects have been demonstrated to be equal to or better than all

other treatments. Dr. Onik has pioneered addressing the impotence

issue by performing 'focal cyro' where there is compelling evidence

that the cancer is localized to one hemisphere of the prostate.

If one does not want to consider surgery or radiation, cryo seems a

viable option to seriously consider.

Those interested in more info on cryo can refer to the web sites of

some of the current expert practitioners:

Onik:

http://www.hopeforprostatecancer.com/gon-lumpectomy.asp

Bahn:

http://www.pioa.org/c_cryo.html

Endocare (one of the equipment vendors):

http://www.cryocarepca.org/index.php?

option=com_content & task=view & id=19 & Itemid=35

PCRI newsletter article on cyro:

http://www.prostate-cancer.org/education/novelthr/Ragde_Bahn_Cryo-

Immunotherapy.html

The Best to You and Yours!

Jon

(Currently following Active Surveillance; no bias towards any

specific radical treatment)

> >

> > We don't see too many posts from PRc patients who have had

> > Cyrotherapy treatment. I went for a 2nd opinion this week, to

> > a young very capable and well known Florida Urologist surgeon

> > - who does Seedings, Davinci Robotics, and Cryotherpay. He told

> > me, in our discussion - " ... I actually have had much better

> > results with Cryo treatments, than with Seeding treatment " .

> > Less after-treatment complications and problems. This urologist

> > spends most of his time DOING TREATMENTS, a very busy treatment

> > practice. He's probably 40. His patients are more of the

> > younger crowd, vs retirement-age practices. Incidently, he

> > does a LOT of Davinci robotics surgery. He did a 58 YO friend

> > of ours - who made it thru wonderfully this past summer.

> >

> > I was interested to learn they can do Cryotherpy more than

> > once. Also it is useful, for recurring PRc after a

> > previous radiation treatment.

> >

> > The slick glossy cryotherapy treatment booklet - remarks that

> > modern Cryotherpy treatment - is just starting to build up a

> > very good 7-10 year data history, from patients.

> >

> > I wonder if anyone who has had recent Cryotherapy treatment,

> > could post your experience with it, briefly. Just for our

> > education on that treatment, and you take on it?

> >

> > I would like to learn real first hand, from some Cryotherapy

> > treated patients. How did it go? Was it a first treatment?

> >

> > Thanks,

> > Fred O.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

40,000 plus proton treatments worldwide (not all prostate cancer)

vs. ??? cryo's. Probably in the neighborhood of at least 18,000

proton prostate cancer patients treated worldwide, already about

8,000 at LLUMC alone.

" Proton therapy has been used to treat cancer for decades in a

limited number of treatment centers worldwide; an estimated 40,000

people worldwide have received proton therapy. ... "

Source: www.Floridaproton.org

This number is now (2007) closer to 50,000.

Fuller

>

> Fuller,

> I agree that cryo is not as widely used as other treatments.

Neither is proton treatment....

>

>

[Guest guest]

Should have said " about 10,000 " total prostate proton patients,

not " 18,000 " , but you get the idea.

Here's the scoop on current status:

Source: http://eng.newwelfare.org/?p=243 & page=3

" Today, the number of PT facilities in operation in Europe is 11,

while the corresponding numbers in North America, Asia and Africa are

seven, six and one, respectively. There are three carbon ion

therapy facilities in operation worldwide, two in Asia and one in

Europe. The total numbers of patients with tumour that have been

treated with protons and carbon ions in Europe so far are 20,633 and

316, respectively. The corresponding total numbers in North America,

Asia and Africa are 28,525 and 2,998, respectively. Hence, the

corresponding total numbers of patients with tumour that have been

treated with protons and carbon ions worldwide are 49,158 and 3,314,

respectively. So far, the largest number of such treatments has been

performed in LLU — 11,414. The largest number of such treatments in

Europe has been performed in the Scherrer Institute (PSI),

Villigen, Switzerland — 4,646. Also, there are six PT facilities

under construction, and two proton and carbon ion therapy facilities

under construction worldwide, seven of them in Europe and one in

Asia. In addition, there are six planned PT facilities, and two

planned proton and carbon ion therapy facilities worldwide, five of

them in Europe, two in North America and one in Africa. It is evident

that, with all these new facilities, the number of treatments with

protons and carbon ions will increase sharply in the near future. "

Protons have arrived!

Fuller

> >

> > Fuller,

> > I agree that cryo is not as widely used as other treatments.

> Neither is proton treatment....

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Jon -

My interest in Cyrotherapy was peaked, by this local

well-known urologist surgeon. As I said he does a LOT

of DaVinci robotics, seeding, and cryotherpay also.

Along with visectomy, etc. ............ He talked,

frankly, that he has experienced very good results

with cryo, often better than seeding he remarked.

At age 71, I'm not a great candidate for surgery. As a very

early PRc diagnosed patient, the only radiation any MD has

recommended has been brachytherapy. And they've told me

I don't need radiation following the seeding. I had

(1) 5% sample out of 12. Glea = 3+3=6, psa = 6.8,

stage = T1C, bone scan = neg, gland = 81.

Perhaps the cyro surgery would be overkill, for me.

I do have ED, initially because of my dependence on

BP meds, my age, and of late - Lupron, as they try to

get my gland size reduced to 45. So when this surgeon

thot Cryotherapy might be good for me, I'm sure this had

a lot to do with it. I'd guess I've had ED for 18 months.

There are so many patient-dependent reasons this patient

gets that treatment, and that patient an entirely different

treatment - it seems more to do with the patient's disease

needs, rather than 1 treatment being perfect over another

treatment.

Thanks for the thoughtful advice!

Fred O.

> > >

> > > We don't see too many posts from PRc patients who have had

> > > Cyrotherapy treatment. I went for a 2nd opinion this week, to

> > > a young very capable and well known Florida Urologist surgeon

> > > - who does Seedings, Davinci Robotics, and Cryotherpay. He told

> > > me, in our discussion - " ... I actually have had much better

> > > results with Cryo treatments, than with Seeding treatment " .

> > > Less after-treatment complications and problems. This urologist

> > > spends most of his time DOING TREATMENTS, a very busy treatment

> > > practice. He's probably 40. His patients are more of the

> > > younger crowd, vs retirement-age practices. Incidently, he

> > > does a LOT of Davinci robotics surgery. He did a 58 YO friend

> > > of ours - who made it thru wonderfully this past summer.

> > >

> > > I was interested to learn they can do Cryotherpy more than

> > > once. Also it is useful, for recurring PRc after a

> > > previous radiation treatment.

> > >

> > > The slick glossy cryotherapy treatment booklet - remarks that

> > > modern Cryotherpy treatment - is just starting to build up a

> > > very good 7-10 year data history, from patients.

> > >

> > > I wonder if anyone who has had recent Cryotherapy treatment,

> > > could post your experience with it, briefly. Just for our

> > > education on that treatment, and you take on it?

> > >

> > > I would like to learn real first hand, from some Cryotherapy

> > > treated patients. How did it go? Was it a first treatment?

> > >

> > > Thanks,

> > > Fred O.

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Fuller -

I'm sure in many cases, it was because their disease

required it. For it seems to be the gold standard of

radiation therapy, from all I read.

Thanks,

Fred O.

> >

> > Fuller,

> > I agree that cryo is not as widely used as other treatments.

> Neither is proton treatment....

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Fuller -

Thanks for remarks. I have read thru the YANA material,

at length. And I'd guess tons of other patient and

professional articles. At times it seems to be running

together. The only Lupron side effect, that I know of

is a slight weight gain. And my wife thinks I've been a

bit more on edge, at times. I still sing pretty good

2nd Tenor in the choir I belong to, but I haven't been

able to sing any higher.

About once a week, I get a brief hot flash. I got my

3rd, and hopefully last Lupron shot last week. They tell

me my 81 gland, needs to get to 45. I get volume tested

next week, so we'll see. My local urologist remarked that

the Lupron is a " treatment " also.

Unfortunately I keep running into patients who had great

success with Davinci Robotic treatment - but it looks like

I'd have to push this MD down here, and perhsps loose

20lbs, to get him to do me.

I will go back and re-read that link to YANA Cryo experiences.

Thanks,

Fred O.

> >

> > We don't see too many posts from PRc patients who have had

> > Cyrotherapy treatment. I went for a 2nd opinion this week, to

> > a young very capable and well known Florida Urologist surgeon

> > - who does Seedings, Davinci Robotics, and Cryotherpay. He told

> > me, in our discussion - " ... I actually have had much better

> > results with Cryo treatments, than with Seeding treatment " .

> > Less after-treatment complications and problems. This urologist

> > spends most of his time DOING TREATMENTS, a very busy treatment

> > practice. He's probably 40. His patients are more of the

> > younger crowd, vs retirement-age practices. Incidently, he

> > does a LOT of Davinci robotics surgery. He did a 58 YO friend

> > of ours - who made it thru wonderfully this past summer.

> >

> > I was interested to learn they can do Cryotherpy more than

> > once. Also it is useful, for recurring PRc after a

> > previous radiation treatment.

> >

> > The slick glossy cryotherapy treatment booklet - remarks that

> > modern Cryotherpy treatment - is just starting to build up a

> > very good 7-10 year data history, from patients.

> >

> > I wonder if anyone who has had recent Cryotherapy treatment,

> > could post your experience with it, briefly. Just for our

> > education on that treatment, and you take on it?

> >

> > I would like to learn real first hand, from some Cryotherapy

> > treated patients. How did it go? Was it a first treatment?

> >

> > Thanks,

> > Fred O.

> >

>