Increasing Armour ... + other questions

[Guest guest]

Hi all,

I'm glad to hear many seem to be doing better, or are at least on the right

path!

I've been feeling lousy this week and am feeling frightened and worried

about what I'm doing. Maybe something will ring a bell with one of you???

Worst symptoms: confusion, time slipping away, tired, anxious, either too

hot or too cold.

My current doctor has never been very helpful - I'm sure that sounds

familiar! - but orders tests if I ask (probably to shut me up). Thinks

she's progressive because she will rx Armour if asked, but still relies on

TSH over Free's for dosing. Would fire her if I could find someone better,

but it's not likely.

______________________________________

August saliva tests showed stage 4 AF (could be worse now after stress

events in meantime)

Very low P & E, high T, very low DHEAS

Most recent TSH low (of course!), Free T's both low normal, TPO antibodies

high

Ferritin 7.8

B12 normal

Temp graphing since starting HC is a roller coaster of ups and downs

Blood pressure low normal. ---- Doc's response to all of above? " stay at

1 & 1/2 gr Armour " . Period. Figures!

______________________________________

Am taking:

HC: 25mg ... one hr post Armour, every 4 hrs, 10-5-5-5 (hit 20mg per Val's

'starting HC' schedule' on 10/21)

Armour: 2gr ... divided into two doses of .75 and one dose .5 (remained on

1 & 1/2 gr while starting HC)

Iron: 195mg ... before bed (started beggining of October)

Bio-id Progesterone Creme: ... 1/4 to 1/2t at bed. (started early October)

DHEA: 25mg ... before bed

[Need to reinstitute vits and supps. Was off for 8 weeks so blood could be

tested for Mycotoxin's this past week.]

_____________________________________

Felt much better at 10 - 15 mg HC. Maybe because I was making use of

thyroid still in blood? Feel so out of it I'm tempted to stop HC

altogether. :0(

_____________________________________

Can Armour be increased by 1/2 grain every two weeks prior to reaching 3

grains, or is it 1/4 grain?

_____________________________________

Read a post here about iodine helping with low progesterone, and got

motivated to test iodine. Joined Iodine group ... lots of familiar friendly

names! Started to read files, etc, had trouble taking it in. Did do patch

test with 2% tincture - gone in under 8 hours. Do NOT know:

more testing required?

when or if to add iodine to current regime?

If added, what and how?

____________________________________

Any thoughts at all will be highly appreciated!

Liz (who'd rather be violently ill than too brain-dead to move)

[Guest guest]

>>Temp graphing since starting HC is a roller coaster of ups and downs

Blood pressure low normal. --<<

Two things that tell me you are not on enough adrenal support. You need

more HC.

--

Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

My Ebay Jewelry Store (Closing after Xmas!!!)

http://stores.ebay.com/valeriescrystalcreations

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

From: " "

> >>Temp graphing since starting HC is a roller coaster of ups and downs

>

> Blood pressure low normal. --<<

>

> Two things that tell me you are not on enough adrenal support. You need

> more HC.

Hi Val,

Was hoping you'd be off doing something FUN; you deserve it, you know!!!

Will probably increase HC after it's been 2 weeks; just increased the HC a

week ago, but feel so brain-dead am questioning THAT increase rather than

looking forward to another increase next week. LOL - sort of

Maybe the anxiety and brain fog are from being Hypo? I can cope (barely)

with no energy, but it's disturbing to not be " with it " enough to test if I

have energy or not!

I increased 1/8 ThyroidS on Monday when actually due for increase yesterday.

Had been on 1 & 7/8 Armour. Armour is rx'd at 1 & 1/2 gr. ThyroidS arrived

Monday and want to use that for increases ........ but the 1 grain tabs are

teeny tiny and really only cutable (is that a word?) in halves.

Are increases supposed to be by 1/4's every two weeks? Or can I get away

with adding 1/2 grain today after just adding 1/8 on Monday? Obviously I'VE

never had the fun of experiencing a thyroid dump!

Liz (challenged just to put sentences together)

[Guest guest]

Sorry to hear you are not feeling well, but glad you are still

posting the answers will come...big swing in temps very much points

to adrenal fatigue. It maybe your ratio to HC and Armour needs

tweeked. Do you have cortisol levels via saliva that would be

helpful along with your Thyroid labs. Anyway, just wanted you to

know we are thinking of you....

Warmly,

Duane

>

> Hi all,

>

> I'm glad to hear many seem to be doing better, or are at least on

the right

> path!

>

> I've been feeling lousy this week and am feeling frightened and

worried

> about what I'm doing. Maybe something will ring a bell with one

of you???

> Worst symptoms: confusion, time slipping away, tired, anxious,

either too

> hot or too cold.

>

> My current doctor has never been very helpful - I'm sure that

sounds

> familiar! - but orders tests if I ask (probably to shut me up).

Thinks

> she's progressive because she will rx Armour if asked, but still

relies on

> TSH over Free's for dosing. Would fire her if I could find

someone better,

> but it's not likely.

>

> ______________________________________

>

> August saliva tests showed stage 4 AF (could be worse now after

stress

> events in meantime)

>

> Very low P & E, high T, very low DHEAS

>

> Most recent TSH low (of course!), Free T's both low normal, TPO

antibodies

> high

>

> Ferritin 7.8

>

> B12 normal

>

> Temp graphing since starting HC is a roller coaster of ups and

downs

>

> Blood pressure low normal. ---- Doc's response to all of

above? " stay at

> 1 & 1/2 gr Armour " . Period. Figures!

>

> ______________________________________

>

> Am taking:

>

> HC: 25mg ... one hr post Armour, every 4 hrs, 10-5-5-5 (hit 20mg

per Val's

> 'starting HC' schedule' on 10/21)

>

> Armour: 2gr ... divided into two doses of .75 and one dose .5

(remained on

> 1 & 1/2 gr while starting HC)

>

> Iron: 195mg ... before bed (started beggining of October)

>

> Bio-id Progesterone Creme: ... 1/4 to 1/2t at bed. (started early

October)

>

> DHEA: 25mg ... before bed

>

> [Need to reinstitute vits and supps. Was off for 8 weeks so blood

could be

> tested for Mycotoxin's this past week.]

>

> _____________________________________

>

>

>

> Felt much better at 10 - 15 mg HC. Maybe because I was making use

of

> thyroid still in blood? Feel so out of it I'm tempted to stop HC

> altogether. :0(

>

>

> _____________________________________

>

>

> Can Armour be increased by 1/2 grain every two weeks prior to

reaching 3

> grains, or is it 1/4 grain?

>

>

> _____________________________________

>

>

> Read a post here about iodine helping with low progesterone, and

got

> motivated to test iodine. Joined Iodine group ... lots of

familiar friendly

> names! Started to read files, etc, had trouble taking it in. Did

do patch

> test with 2% tincture - gone in under 8 hours. Do NOT know:

>

> more testing required?

>

> when or if to add iodine to current regime?

>

> If added, what and how?

>

> ____________________________________

>

>

> Any thoughts at all will be highly appreciated!

>

> Liz (who'd rather be violently ill than too brain-dead to move)

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/11/2006 01:43:48 GMT Standard Time,

esilver@... writes:

I've been feeling lousy this week and am feeling frightened and worried

about what I'm doing. Maybe something will ring a bell with one of you???

Worst symptoms: confusion, time slipping away, tired, anxious, either too

hot or too cold.

My current doctor has never been very helpful - I'm sure that sounds

familiar! - but orders tests if I ask (probably to shut me up). Thinks

she's progressive because she will rx Armour if asked, but still relies on

TSH over Free's for dosing. Would fire her if I could find someone better,

but it's not likely.

Hi there

I was feeling frightened earlier in the week and unable to get out of bed

because I had been SO hypo by decreasing my Armour. You are ringing very large

bells for me!

I keep going from cold to feverish for weeks.

I am also in the position where my doctor does not know how to interpret

labs for those on Armour. I am self-treating and hoping at some point to

persude

her to prescribe (a very rare occurrence here in England). And I am thinking

even if she does prescribe well then I have to give up my autonomy about how

much I take because she will be the same as your doctor, treating to TSH and

FT4 which is all she understands. Also she told me the FT3 tests are very

expensive so she would not want to go there.

I am going to have to try to compile some information to educate her as to

how in interpret labs for Amour-using patients and I wonder if your own doctor

would be open to learning more in this respect.

I would appreciate any advice/info from the list about this, specifically

information on doctort education in deciphering Armour labs as this is her

sticking point and she is refusing to do any more labs for me because she

cannot

understand them.

If your doctor will not be educated then I see no reason not to change to

someone more knowledge is such a doctor exists in your area.

Or to self-treat?

Let us know how you go on.

Mo xx

NOVA Counselling & Healing Services

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/11/2006 11:26:54 GMT Standard Time,

artisticgroomer@... writes:

Speaking of which, MO, how is the dose increase going? I take it you are

feeling better?

Hi again

I have been struggling with the night-time palps but the first night was the

worst. Then it has got progessively easier every night.

Still taking a lot of stuff to knock me out at night but again it was less

last night than the night before so everything is going in the right direction

I feel.

The 1/4 grain increase of ten days ago has also kicked in around the time

those recent labs arrived. So that is helping, the depression is gone. The fear

is gone because, having seen those labs, I can see clearly what the problem

is whereas I was just really confused and scared about what was going on in

my body. I felt like I have a post-viral fatigue thing going on. And when I

could not even get out of bed last Wednesday I really felt very frightened and

alone.

So the worst is over and the ONLY WAY IS UP!

For you also!!!

Mo

NOVA Counselling & Healing Services

[Guest guest]

>>Are increases supposed to be by 1/4's every two weeks? Or can I get away

with adding 1/2 grain today after just adding 1/8 on Monday? Obviously I'VE

never had the fun of experiencing a thyroid dump!<<

With weak adrenals, the 1/4 grain increases seem to be much easier for

the body to handle. Better to do 1/4 grain increases every week than 1/2

every two weeks as that seems to be more strain on the adrenals to adapt to.

--

Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

My Ebay Jewelry Store (Closing after Xmas!!!)

http://stores.ebay.com/valeriescrystalcreations

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

[Guest guest]

Speaking of which, MO, how is the dose increase going? I take it you are

feeling better?

--

Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

My Ebay Jewelry Store (Closing after Xmas!!!)

http://stores.ebay.com/valeriescrystalcreations

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

[Guest guest]

Yes, you can go up a 1/2 grain (30mg) of Armour every two weeks,

until you hit 3 grains. Then it's recommended to only go up a 1/4

grain (15mg) every 4-6 weeks, watching for signs of hyper.

AFA the iodine, you can also try the iodine loading test thru Dr.

Flechas to see how low you are. A lot of posters there come back

<40%. One should be up around 90%. Mine came back at 70%, so not too

horrible.

Supplements are the Iodoral (pill) or Lugol's Solution (liquid). I'm

on the Lugol's as it's cheaper. One source is www.sciencestuff.com.

I've done a couple posts on the board about ordering from them. If

you go back over to the Iodine board, there's a list of sources in

the files too.

The anxiousness sounds like low cortisol. The other symptoms sound

like low thyroid. You may need to go up on both your HC & your

Armour. Stupid doctor with the TSH monitoring. That's useless when

you're taking thyroid meds. They need to monitor the frees. Does she

order the frees? If she doesn't, next time you go, just check them

off on the lab req slip. It's your insurance paying for it, not her.

Have the lab send you a copy of the report directly too, when you go

for the test. You can have them fill that in on their paperwork.

Sometimes you may have to insist a little. They might say, " oh, your

doctor will send you a copy " . They don't want to expend the effort.

But you're entitled to your med records, per HIPPA.

That's a REALLY low ferritin. No wonder you feel like crap. That

should improve as your iron comes up too. It just takes time.

Replenishing iron is slow.

Try dosing 2x/day with the progesterone. It has a half-life of 12

hours. Try doubling your dose (by adding that am one) and see how

you feel. P converts to cortisol. If you're low on both P &

cortisol, standard supplementation still may not be giving you

enough.

I was low on P & cortisol & taking 20mg (1 pump) of P/day from days

10-28. My tests came back with me STILL low on P & cortisol. I've

upped it to 2x/day every day. That seems to have helped a bit. My

skin has gotten a lot softer & feels more " plumped " . Oh, it feels

nice!

When I was starting my P cream on day 10, I always seemed to have

this " body craving " to started it sooner. But you're not supposed

to, follow your cycle, blah, blah, blah. Maybe that applies when

you're not low in cortisol too. Double-dosing every day is working

for me.

>

> Hi all,

>

> I'm glad to hear many seem to be doing better, or are at least on

the right

> path!

>

> I've been feeling lousy this week and am feeling frightened and

worried

> about what I'm doing. Maybe something will ring a bell with one

of you???

> Worst symptoms: confusion, time slipping away, tired, anxious,

either too

> hot or too cold.

>

> My current doctor has never been very helpful - I'm sure that

sounds

> familiar! - but orders tests if I ask (probably to shut me up).

Thinks

> she's progressive because she will rx Armour if asked, but still

relies on

> TSH over Free's for dosing. Would fire her if I could find

someone better,

> but it's not likely.

>

> ______________________________________

>

> August saliva tests showed stage 4 AF (could be worse now after

stress

> events in meantime)

>

> Very low P & E, high T, very low DHEAS

>

> Most recent TSH low (of course!), Free T's both low normal, TPO

antibodies

> high

>

> Ferritin 7.8

>

> B12 normal

>

> Temp graphing since starting HC is a roller coaster of ups and

downs

>

> Blood pressure low normal. ---- Doc's response to all of

above? " stay at

> 1 & 1/2 gr Armour " . Period. Figures!

>

> ______________________________________

>

> Am taking:

>

> HC: 25mg ... one hr post Armour, every 4 hrs, 10-5-5-5 (hit 20mg

per Val's

> 'starting HC' schedule' on 10/21)

>

> Armour: 2gr ... divided into two doses of .75 and one dose .5

(remained on

> 1 & 1/2 gr while starting HC)

>

> Iron: 195mg ... before bed (started beggining of October)

>

> Bio-id Progesterone Creme: ... 1/4 to 1/2t at bed. (started early

October)

>

> DHEA: 25mg ... before bed

>

> [Need to reinstitute vits and supps. Was off for 8 weeks so blood

could be

> tested for Mycotoxin's this past week.]

>

> _____________________________________

>

>

>

> Felt much better at 10 - 15 mg HC. Maybe because I was making use

of

> thyroid still in blood? Feel so out of it I'm tempted to stop HC

> altogether. :0(

>

>

> _____________________________________

>

>

> Can Armour be increased by 1/2 grain every two weeks prior to

reaching 3

> grains, or is it 1/4 grain?

>

>

> _____________________________________

>

>

> Read a post here about iodine helping with low progesterone, and

got

> motivated to test iodine. Joined Iodine group ... lots of

familiar friendly

> names! Started to read files, etc, had trouble taking it in. Did

do patch

> test with 2% tincture - gone in under 8 hours. Do NOT know:

>

> more testing required?

>

> when or if to add iodine to current regime?

>

> If added, what and how?

>

> ____________________________________

>

>

> Any thoughts at all will be highly appreciated!

>

> Liz (who'd rather be violently ill than too brain-dead to move)

>

[Guest guest]

Mo- check these. This is the table of contents for Dr. Lowe's

discussion of why T4 only (Synthroid, et al) therapy doesn't work.

Click thru all the links. It's very comprehensive:

http://www.drlowe.com/frf/t4replacement/intro.htm

More stuff:

What Every Hypothyroid Patient Should Know about Synthroid

http://curezone.com/art/read.asp?ID=96 & db=5 & C0=842

Suppressed TSH Levels: Medical Journals

http://www.altsupportthyroid.org/tsh/tshmedrefs5.php

(click thru the links on the right too)

Treatment suppressed TSH in 75% of the patients, induced normal fT

(4) in 94%, but normal fT(3) in only 49% of them.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

db=pubmed & cmd=Retrieve & dopt=AbstractPlus & list_uids=14713273 & query_hl=

19 & itool=pubmed_docsum

(this link talks about the use of the free T4 & free T3 tests & that

suppressin of TSH when on thyroid med is common)

" ...Treatment suppressed TSH in 75% of the patients, induced normal

fT(4) in 94%, but normal fT(3) in only 49% of them. .. "

Effects of Thyroxine as Compared with Thyroxine plus

Triiodothyronine in Patients with Hypothyroidism

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/short/340/6/424

(this talks about the increased effectiveness of treating with

T3+T4, as opposed to T4 only. As you know, Armour has both T3 & T4.

Also mentions using frees to monitor T4, T3 levels)

Go check the Files at the Yahoo Thyroid group. There's some

more " ammo " in there.

Go check the NTH board. There was a thread there recently started by

. It started off by her doctor saying a low TSH caused cancer.

I posted a bunch of " ammo " in it. Here it is:

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormones/messages/

146907?threaded=1 & m=e & var=1 & tidx=1

Hope that helps,

> Hi there

> I was feeling frightened earlier in the week and unable to get out

of bed

> because I had been SO hypo by decreasing my Armour. You are

ringing very large

> bells for me!

> I keep going from cold to feverish for weeks.

> I am also in the position where my doctor does not know how to

interpret

> labs for those on Armour. I am self-treating and hoping at some

point to persude

> her to prescribe (a very rare occurrence here in England). And I

am thinking

> even if she does prescribe well then I have to give up my

autonomy about how

> much I take because she will be the same as your doctor, treating

to TSH and

> FT4 which is all she understands. Also she told me the FT3 tests

are very

> expensive so she would not want to go there.

> I am going to have to try to compile some information to educate

her as to

> how in interpret labs for Amour-using patients and I wonder if

your own doctor

> would be open to learning more in this respect.

> I would appreciate any advice/info from the list about this,

specifically

> information on doctort education in deciphering Armour labs as

this is her

> sticking point and she is refusing to do any more labs for me

because she cannot

> understand them.

> If your doctor will not be educated then I see no reason not to

change to

> someone more knowledge is such a doctor exists in your area.

> Or to self-treat?

> Let us know how you go on.

>

> Mo xx

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

From: " Duane "

> Sorry to hear you are not feeling well,

Duane,

Thanks for the support! I do have cortisol levels ... can't think where

they are right now - hey, let's face it, I'm having trouble thinking period.

:0) :0( Anyway, they weren't too bad, but the very low DHEAS pretty well

confirmed the stage 4 AF, along with symptoms and temp graph. Oh, and also

the very low progesterone and estrogen.

I AM feeling a bit better today, thankfully. Yesterday was pretty awful ...

we all cope with things differently, and I can handle palps better than

brain fog.

Your post, and others whom responded, made it bearable and helped me to

remember that everyone has bad phases. This group is so great! I couldn't

do this without all of you.

Thanks again,

Liz

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

From: Mo

>

> Hi there

> I was feeling frightened earlier in the week and unable to get out of bed

> because I had been SO hypo by decreasing my Armour. You are ringing very

> large

> bells for me!

educate her as to

> how in interpret labs for Amour-using patients and I wonder if your own

> doctor

> would be open to learning more in this respect.

Hi Mo,

You're right ... if I don't concentrate on the palps you were having, the

troubles in general that you've been going through the past weeks are

similar to my experiences! It's nice to not feel alone, but I'm glad to

hear you are doing better - yea! I remember you sounded as frightened as I

was feeling yesterday.

My doctor, I'm afraid is a lost cause. I've printed out various material

and given it to her, and there is no indication that she's ever read any of

it. But that does not mean you should give up hope with your doc - try

educating, you might get lucky!

Again, glad to hear you're doing better, and thanks for reminding me that

I'm not as alone as I feel. Feelings are not facts! Symptoms, on the

other hand ,,,

Liz

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

From:

> Yes, you can go up a 1/2 grain (30mg) of Armour every two weeks,

> until you hit 3 grains. Then it's recommended to only go up a 1/4

> grain (15mg) every 4-6 weeks, watching for signs of hyper.

Thanks, I'm printing this out, 'cause by the time I've hit 3 gr's, I'll have

forgotten!

> AFA the iodine, you can also try the iodine loading test thru Dr.

> Flechas to see how low you are. A lot of posters there come back

> <40%. One should be up around 90%. Mine came back at 70%, so not too

> horrible.

Is the loading test pretty much done to gage what dosage you should be on,

or is to confirm deficiency?

> Supplements are the Iodoral (pill) or Lugol's Solution (liquid). I'm

> on the Lugol's as it's cheaper. One source is www.sciencestuff.com.

> I've done a couple posts on the board about ordering from them. If

> you go back over to the Iodine board, there's a list of sources in

> the files too.

I think I'll go with Lugol's too. I read a post saying it can be used for

" painting " ; does this mean it can be used to test if you still need it? If

so, how often do you retest? Do the files contain a basic overview page

that covers all this stuff that I'm asking you? I didn't see one, but I've

been having trouble reading posts and comprehending what I'm reading much

less determing contents on a group site...

Is it a good idea to be stabilized on HC and Armour before starting on

iodine, if it's needed, or could I get away with starting it before then?

Or maybe I should wait until I can read all the information on it AND

comprehend it! LOL! Then again, maybe the iodine would help to utilize the

thyroid meds so that I CAN comprehend stuff??!

> The anxiousness sounds like low cortisol. The other symptoms sound

> like low thyroid. You may need to go up on both your HC & your

> Armour. Stupid doctor with the TSH monitoring. That's useless when

> you're taking thyroid meds. They need to monitor the frees. Does she

> order the frees? If she doesn't, next time you go, just check them

> off on the lab req slip. It's your insurance paying for it, not her.

> Have the lab send you a copy of the report directly too ....

Luckily, she does order the Free's and looks at them, but the allmighty TSH

is more important in her eyes. But, for what it's worth, I DO get the

copies of my results from the lab BEFORE I meet with her and she sees them!

That way, I'm prepared to question when she says something " looks good " when

it really doesn't -- not that it usually gets me anywhere, but every once in

a while I win a battle! At least she prescribes me 'some' Armour, that way

a portion of my dosage is paid by insurance, and every little bit helps.

>

> That's a REALLY low ferritin. No wonder you feel like crap. That

> should improve as your iron comes up too. It just takes time.

> Replenishing iron is slow.

>

I had to ask for the test, after reading about it on the STTM site. And

then I had to bring the result to her attention, as she was either

overlooking or ignoring it. :0(

> Try dosing 2x/day with the progesterone. It has a half-life of 12

> hours. Try doubling your dose (by adding that am one) and see how

> you feel. P converts to cortisol. If you're low on both P &

> cortisol, standard supplementation still may not be giving you

> enough.

>

Did you post about this on the other site? I read about this there and

thought it was a good idea - now I'm going to start 2x tomorrow. I don't

have the pump, so I just guestimate ... rather liberally! My P was so low

it was not measurable on the saliva test. Then again, so was the E, but

there is a heavy history of uterine/ovarian cancer in my family, so I'll

stay away from the E if I can get away with it. I'd love to have my skin

feeling really good again; it's improved, but not quite as plump as yours.

Yet! LOL

>

> When I was starting my P cream on day 10, I always seemed to have

> this " body craving " to started it sooner. But you're not supposed

> to, follow your cycle, blah, blah, blah.

" Blah, blah, blah " has been my favorite pet name for the pharma industry.

Unfortunately, now I'm going to have to come up with a name for the AMA and

it's doctors!

Thanks SO very much for all your help . You filled in a lot of missing

blanks, and maybe a big part of my fear yesterday was from being so ignorant

about so much of this stuff. And when all of it starts to inter-relate, my

head really starts to swirl!

Liz