Re: practicalities of getting important promises kept (formerly Introductions)

July 18, 2010

Sometimes I think this country is too obsessed with optimism. Sometimes

things are just not going good, and people have a right to complain!

Sometimes complaining is just venting, it isn't meant to solve anything.

-- Re: practicalities of getting important

promises kept (formerly " Introductions " )

----- Original Message -----

From: Cristina Lara

Exactly. There is no difference. I may be going off on a tangent from the

original topic here, but I personally have always had trouble understanding

this whole Political Correctness thing. In fact, I don't even know why they

call it *political* correctness--what does it have to do with politics? Lol

**Well, I think the root word for 'politics' comes from something to do with

the people? Yeah, I guess it is a fitting term. I could see, in the

beginning, when they made some changes, to reword terrible-sounding things

to more polite-sounding ones, but it got out of hand.

Just like blacks and other minorities here in the US have no trouble with

the phrase " people of color " but can't abide the phrase " colored people " .

(I am considered a " person of color " myself--Hispanic--so I can assure you I

mean no disrespect to anyone.) But I really see no difference in the two

phrases; it's like saying " blue skies " or " skies of blue " . While " skies of

blue " may sound more poetic, it doesn't change the meaning at all.

**True.

The same goes for the terms " glass half full " or " half empty " as metaphors

for optimism/pessimism. To me, there is half a glass of _______(water, wine

whatever); if it is an 8-ounce glass, it contains 4 ounces of______. It

connotes neither optimism nor pessimism to me, it just is what it is. I

have been told that makes me a " realist " as opposed to an " optimist " or

pessimist " . I don't actually relate to any of those labels, I'm just a

person! (uh, a " person with autism " ...)

**Whenever someone calls me a pessimist, I tell them I'm actually a realist.

As a German I can't abide the American hyper optimism anyway.

D.

July 18, 2010

If a pessimist looks at a glass and says:

" Half empty, "

and an optimist looks at the same glass and says

" Half full, "

is there any name at all for

the one who looks at the glass and says:

" Let me refill that "

?

Kate Gladstone

July 19, 2010

> " To me, there's no difference between 'autistic people' and 'people with

> autism'. "

>

> Exactly. There is no difference.

The difficulty, IMO, comes when NTs want to say " person with autism "

to show that autism is separate form one's personhood, as though you

could take the autism away and still have the same person. It also

makes out in that context that autism is an inferior state to NT-ness.

If you can find it, I think it may be on autistics.org, read Jim

Sinclair's " Don't Mourn For Us " . Xe talks about NT parents wanting to

gte rid of the autistic person so a nice normal person can move in

behind their face.

Ruth

--

" Environmental problems are difficult to solve because Earth is a

" public good " . Even though we would all be better off if everyone

reduced their environmental impact, it is not in anyone's individual

interest to do so. This leads to the famous " tragedy of the commons " ,

in which public resources are overexploited and everyone suffers. "

New Scientist opinion article

July 19, 2010

> If you can find it, I think it may be on autistics.org, read Jim

> Sinclair's " Don't Mourn For Us " .

http://www.autreat.com/dont_mourn.html

http://www.jimsinclair.org/person_first.htm

July 19, 2010

----- Original Message -----

From: Autiste Ruth

The difficulty, IMO, comes when NTs want to say " person with autism "

to show that autism is separate form one's personhood, as though you

could take the autism away and still have the same person. It also

makes out in that context that autism is an inferior state to NT-ness.

**That's just semantics, isn't it? Person with curly hair, curly-haired

person. Six of one, half a dozen of the other.

If you can find it, I think it may be on autistics.org, read Jim

Sinclair's " Don't Mourn For Us " . Xe talks about NT parents wanting to

gte rid of the autistic person so a nice normal person can move in

behind their face.

**Well, they're misguided, of course. Autism is as much a permanent part of

a person, as skin color, eye color, hair type or anything else that can't be

changed. Yes, I'm aware of colored contact lenses and perms, but the

original feature is still present.

D.

July 19, 2010

----- Original Message -----

From: Stan's Computer

> If you can find it, I think it may be on autistics.org, read Jim

> Sinclair's " Don't Mourn For Us " .

http://www.autreat.com/dont_mourn.html

http://www.jimsinclair.org/person_first.htm

**Thanks Stan!

D.

July 19, 2010

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: Autiste Ruth

>

> The difficulty, IMO, comes when NTs want to say " person with autism "

> to show that autism is separate form one's personhood, as though you

> could take the autism away and still have the same person. It also

> makes out in that context that autism is an inferior state to NT-ness.

>

> **That's just semantics, isn't it? Person with curly hair, curly-haired

> person. Six of one, half a dozen of the other.

To me, maybe not to you, saying " person with " implies you could have

the same person without. Interesting too that the politically correct

people who insist that disabilities have to be withs rather than

" inherent " parts have no objection to the useages in contexts you

mention like curly-haired person. That makes it disability/illness

specific, and that makes it out as undesirable by logical extention.

It is all semantics, but unfortuntately semantics affect how people

view things (and other people).

Back to the vagaries of language and culture; hopefully not back to

the headache-inducing discussions!

Ruth

--

" Environmental problems are difficult to solve because Earth is a

" public good " . Even though we would all be better off if everyone

reduced their environmental impact, it is not in anyone's individual

interest to do so. This leads to the famous " tragedy of the commons " ,

in which public resources are overexploited and everyone suffers. "

New Scientist opinion article

July 19, 2010

Oh, I SO hate it when people use 'politically correct " language!>.<

I AM autistic, I AM blind, I AM disabled. The " with " makes it sound like I'm

dateing a disabiltiy!

Gail

-- Re: practicalities of getting important

promises kept (formerly " Introductions " )

----- Original Message -----

From: Autiste Ruth

The difficulty, IMO, comes when NTs want to say " person with autism "

to show that autism is separate form one's personhood, as though you

could take the autism away and still have the same person. It also

makes out in that context that autism is an inferior state to NT-ness.

**That's just semantics, isn't it? Person with curly hair, curly-haired

person. Six of one, half a dozen of the other.

If you can find it, I think it may be on autistics.org, read Jim

Sinclair's " Don't Mourn For Us " . Xe talks about NT parents wanting to

gte rid of the autistic person so a nice normal person can move in

behind their face.

**Well, they're misguided, of course. Autism is as much a permanent part of

a person, as skin color, eye color, hair type or anything else that can't be

changed. Yes, I'm aware of colored contact lenses and perms, but the

original feature is still present.

D.

------------------------------------

July 19, 2010

> To me, maybe not to you, saying " person with " implies you could have

> the same person without.

That's pretty much the logic. The groups that tend to support

adjective or noun-adjective descriptors, e.g., Deaf, Blind,

Autistic, are those who identify a culture.

" People first " is a way of saying that the condition does not define

the person, which is the point of " people first " descriptors. So,

to use Gail's analogy, it is like dating the condition rather than

the condition being part of one's identity.

- s0

July 20, 2010

> That's pretty much the logic. The groups that tend to support

> adjective or noun-adjective descriptors, e.g., Deaf, Blind,

> Autistic, are those who identify a culture.

>

I'm not so sure about autistics idenitifying with a culture - those

who do are IME a small minority of the autistic population. Since

they're the ones those of us who are online are naturally dialoguing

with we can get the impression " autistic culture " is more inclusive

and embracing of the autistic population than it really is. Lots of

autistics aren't online and of those that are too many fear autistic

culture because they've benn told we're all aspie supremacists -

people who believe autistics are superior to NTs.

Ruth

--

" Wanting to be someone else is a waste of the person you are. "

Kurt Cobain

July 20, 2010

I have to say that my husband would not be the same person if he were

sighted. There are so many little bits to his personality and the way he

interacts with the world that I think would not have developed the way they

did if he had been able to see better. If you took the blindness away now,

he'd still be the same (and oh how I wish I could), but if you had taken it

away as a baby, he would not have become the same adult.

And blind people hate " visually impaired " and " people with blindness " and

all the other PC crap, too. Why don't these people try asking US what WE

want, instead of making all these decisions for us?

Elayne

July 20, 2010

>

> And blind people hate " visually impaired " and " people with blindness " and

> all the other PC crap, too.

I wonder if people who lose their sight or hearing later in life feel

the same way?

At a recent disability conference in Manchester there was a wonderful

presentation by a man who became blind at about the age of 12 or 14,

due to a car accident I think. He talked about dusting, that he

enjoys it because it is his only way of experiencing the souvenirs and

nic-nacs he's collected. I guess as sighted people we don't think

about that, how memories are triggered dozens of times a day by things

our eyes happen to pass over, and how without sight those things cease

to exist unless we're touching them or thinking about them.

I've noticed a division in the disability community between those with

obvious physical impairments who want people to see the person beyond

the disfigurement/wheechair/etc and those of us with invisible

disabilities who have to fight to be recognised and understood as

genuinely disabled.

I like to recall a trip I took on a busy Manchester metro tram once, a

few years ago. There was a woman, about 50 - 60 yo sitting quietly

and calmly, seemingly able to ignore all the bustle round her. I sat

next to her, and gradually noticed that the little dog she had with

her had a working dog harness on, and that it was a hearing dog for

the deaf, and some time later she communcated to me where she needed

to get off and could I tell her if we were there yet - she was deaf

and had been for some time, not just the deafness of older age. And

her experience of that tram was so superior to mine :-)

Ruth

--

" Wanting to be someone else is a waste of the person you are. "

Kurt Cobain

July 20, 2010

----- Original Message -----

From: Autiste Ruth

I've noticed a division in the disability community between those with

obvious physical impairments who want people to see the person beyond

the disfigurement/wheechair/etc and those of us with invisible

disabilities who have to fight to be recognised and understood as

genuinely disabled.

***I find this frustrating, too. An obvious, visible disablity is always

there for others to see, so people will make allowances and accomodate the

person, but invisible disabilities don't get the same compassion. We always

have to keep reminding people.