Re: Re: [asparenting] Introductions

[Guest guest]

I never thought of myself as an extrovert, no. I'm a homebody, but I like

to get out and about, I like to travel and visit, at times. At work, I teach

30 kids in each of 4 classrooms then at home I manage my own kids. There's

no adult in my life. There's no one to talk to or bounce ideas off of. I

take my kids out to dinner but haven't gone out with an adult in years. The

thing is, I enjoy my kids very much but when I do try to " put myself out

there " and meet adults, I can't stand a lot of them. lol. It's a problem, I

know.

In a message dated 7/14/2010 4:13:44 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

watertiger13@... writes:

**with all those kids and your job, how can you still feel lonely? Are you

an extravert? I'm an introvert, and get drained by too much social

interaction. It's getting worse as I'm getting older.

[Guest guest]

Ruth, I often try to think about what I'll do when the kids are grown and

gone and I have no more. I have a dog now but the hair drives me crazy.

Maybe if I didn't have kids, I wouldn't mind so much. I don't know. I've had

dogs, cats, fish, frogs, rabbits, lizards, etc. Tried them all.

In a message dated 7/14/2010 4:13:45 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

watertiger13@... writes:

I also have pets and livestock who need me, and a a number of solitary

enjoyments including walking, studying and my garden.

[Guest guest]

awwwww =[

In a message dated 7/14/2010 4:52:33 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

deerskin@... writes:

SSI just chopped my money in half because one of our

kids turned 18. Same kid who has been thrown out of school because of his

ADD that doesnt respond to meds, and cant comprehend/retain the GED book.

[Guest guest]

> To be honest, I have no friends left who spend time with me. OK, they SAY

> they're friends, but they're not really my friend. They avoid me, they

> chit-chat once in a blue moon online, etc. That's it. I don't feel like I can

go

> to them to talk about something on my mind or for a shoulder to lean on.

I'm in exactly the same situation. I've told the people who say

they're my friends that a friendship is no good to me unless the

person wants to spend time with me. They tell me they care, but what

good is caring in the abstract? To feel cared about one needs company

where one feels accepted.

I have no answer except that what I've decided to do, since I'm a

total failure at suicide, is put myself in situations with other

people often enough that it nearly fills my needs for friendly

interaction, and to that end I volunteer in a charity shop and am a

member of a local choral group. I know enough people in town to say

hello to that I don't feel totally rejected and I try not to ponder on

why no one actually wants to be with me.

I also have pets and livestock who need me, and a a number of solitary

enjoyments including walking, studying and my garden.

At 36yo I'm beginning to accept I'm never going to be a nice or

popular person, so I better just get on with living as well as I can

despite that. And I have a reasonable quality of life much of the

time, a good quality of life sometimes and a lousy quality of life not

too overwhelmingly much of the time. Life isn't easy but it is what

you make it.

Ruth

--

" Environmental problems are difficult to solve because Earth is a

" public good " .  Even though we would all be better off if everyone

reduced their environmental impact, it is not in anyone's individual

interest to do so.  This leads to the famous " tragedy of the commons " ,

in which public resources are overexploited and everyone suffers. "

New Scientist opinion article

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

From: alisongraf@...

" the key to developing a new sense of belonging is to cultivate a new sense

of self-acceptance. "

You posted this about the book on your blog. I guess I'm quiet on the whole

autism/neurodiversity issue because I can not fully accept myself as is.

To be honest, I have no friends left who spend time with me. OK, they SAY

they're friends, but they're not really my friend. They avoid me, they

chit-chat once in a blue moon online, etc. That's it. I don't feel like I

can go

to them to talk about something on my mind or for a shoulder to lean on. My

family has shunned me. My adult children only talk to me when they need

something. I never get to see my granddaughter. People think I'm weird. I

have a part-time job because I can't interview well since my self confidence

is gone and it's hard for me to keep a job, especially as I get older. I say

inappropriate things at times and at times my frustration tolerance is

low. Going to work every day is draining for me. I have meds that help with

the blurting out of inappropriate things and my meltdowns, but I still wish

I

didn't feel that way at all. I still wish I wouldn't yell at my kids when

it would be just as effective to talk normally. Sometimes I'm so lonely my

heart feels like it's ripping into pieces. I do not accept these things

about myself.

**I'm a lot like you in most of these respects, except I had to quit my

part-time job, because I couldn't handle it anymore, mentally or physically.

Yes, I have good qualities. There are things I do very well. I'm awesome at

adopting special needs kids and helping them be more successful at living

a " normal " , productive every day life. Social workers from all over the

country ask me to consider adopting children on their caseload. They always

offer me the most difficult children. I'm good at mentoring the at-risk

students at work. These students fail all classes but mine. They say I'm the

only teacher who doesn't give up on them, who is willing to go 10 extra

miles

to find some way to help them succeed. But, these are the very reasons I

also feel used. One adopted child was kicked out of every home after a few

months. She was with me 4 years. Then, she grew up and moved out to live

with

her favorite former foster family. Why did they take her back? I " fixed "

her behaviors.

**See? I could never do this! I do not have the patience to deal with even

'normal' children, much less special needs ones. You should be proud of

yourself! Give yourself credit! Few people can do what you do!

My adult birth daughters only contact me when they need

something.

I see how other " popular " people are and it's not how I am. I can't pretend

to be like that. If I try, it's tiring and it doesn't always work because

my facial expression doesn't always convey my mood right. If I'm happy,

people ask " what's wrong " .

**Don't try to be someone you're not. Accept that you're not popular.

Sometimes when I'm upset, no one asks. Maybe it

doesn't show on my face? My newest daughter (ASD) saw my myspace picture and

asked why I was mad. I was happy and having a good time, smiling. I looked

at it again and thought it COULD be mistaken for me yelling instead of me

laughing. I just think it stinks and I wish I could change those things

because my heart can't bear all this loneliness. Sometimes I wonder what I

will

do when I'm too old to adopt. I am not good at anything else. I will have

no purpose in life anymore. ugh.

**with all those kids and your job, how can you still feel lonely? Are you

an extravert? I'm an introvert, and get drained by too much social

interaction. It's getting worse as I'm getting older.

Sorry for rambling. Felt the need to get that off my chest. If anyone has

any advice or words of wisdom, I'm always open to it.

**You're among friends here! We accept you the way you are.

D.

[Guest guest]

I feel the same way- a *real* friend is someone to whom you can tell all

your problems/vice versa, and know you can trust them to not go yammering it

all over town. I live in a little town in Kansas, pop around 2500, and I

dont dare be other than acquaintances with anyone here, even people in my

church...especially people in my church, because my family does things they

consider occasions of sin, like play video games (carefully chosen for lack

of violence), movies (cant afford cable and TV reception is lousy here). I

had more friends when I lived back home in southern California, one huge

megatroplis with no way to tell when you left one town and entered another,

than I ever have had here.

For us aspies, there is also the problem that *we* might think we have a

best friend, but to the other person its just a casual accqaintance kind of

thing. So here we are, emotionally invested in that person, when they up and

leave. Bye, and thanks for all the fish. And there you are, heartbroken yet

again. Me, I cant take any more of it. I dont trust anyone that much now,

not even my husband. I can be on the edge of suicide, depressed and out of

my mind in pain, and there he is, sitting on his ass in front of his

computer, talking to *his* friends online, or in some damn chatroom. He has

bluntly told me he cant deal with me. But as Catholics, its 'till death do

you part'. I may wind up having leave, and go to a shelter, to be able to

get the help I need...SSI just chopped my money in half because one of our

kids turned 18. Same kid who has been thrown out of school because of his

ADD that doesnt respond to meds, and cant comprehend/retain the GED book.

Life for us aspies is hell

Gail

-- Re: Re: [asparenting] Introductions

> To be honest, I have no friends left who spend time with me. OK, they SAY

> they're friends, but they're not really my friend. They avoid me, they

> chit-chat once in a blue moon online, etc. That's it. I don't feel like I

can go

> to them to talk about something on my mind or for a shoulder to lean on.

I'm in exactly the same situation. I've told the people who say

they're my friends that a friendship is no good to me unless the

person wants to spend time with me. They tell me they care, but what

good is caring in the abstract? To feel cared about one needs company

where one feels accepted.

I have no answer except that what I've decided to do, since I'm a

total failure at suicide, is put myself in situations with other

people often enough that it nearly fills my needs for friendly

interaction, and to that end I volunteer in a charity shop and am a

member of a local choral group. I know enough people in town to say

hello to that I don't feel totally rejected and I try not to ponder on

why no one actually wants to be with me.

I also have pets and livestock who need me, and a a number of solitary

enjoyments including walking, studying and my garden.

At 36yo I'm beginning to accept I'm never going to be a nice or

popular person, so I better just get on with living as well as I can

despite that. And I have a reasonable quality of life much of the

time, a good quality of life sometimes and a lousy quality of life not

too overwhelmingly much of the time. Life isn't easy but it is what

you make it.

Ruth

--

" Environmental problems are difficult to solve because Earth is a

" public good " . Even though we would all be better off if everyone

reduced their environmental impact, it is not in anyone's individual

interest to do so. This leads to the famous " tragedy of the commons " ,

in which public resources are overexploited and everyone suffers. "

New Scientist opinion article

------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

From: Autiste Ruth

I'm in exactly the same situation. I've told the people who say

they're my friends that a friendship is no good to me unless the

person wants to spend time with me. They tell me they care, but what

good is caring in the abstract? To feel cared about one needs company

where one feels accepted.

I have no answer except that what I've decided to do, since I'm a

total failure at suicide, is put myself in situations with other

people often enough that it nearly fills my needs for friendly

interaction, and to that end I volunteer in a charity shop and am a

member of a local choral group. I know enough people in town to say

hello to that I don't feel totally rejected and I try not to ponder on

why no one actually wants to be with me.

I also have pets and livestock who need me, and a a number of solitary

enjoyments including walking, studying and my garden.

At 36yo I'm beginning to accept I'm never going to be a nice or

popular person, so I better just get on with living as well as I can

despite that. And I have a reasonable quality of life much of the

time, a good quality of life sometimes and a lousy quality of life not

too overwhelmingly much of the time. Life isn't easy but it is what

you make it.

Ruth

**Then there's always Facebook! For me it's perfect, since that type of

interaction is a lot less draining for me.

D.

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

From: Gail

I feel the same way- a *real* friend is someone to whom you can tell all

your problems/vice versa, and know you can trust them to not go yammering it

all over town. I live in a little town in Kansas, pop around 2500, and I

dont dare be other than acquaintances with anyone here, even people in my

church...especially people in my church, because my family does things they

consider occasions of sin, like play video games (carefully chosen for lack

of violence), movies (cant afford cable and TV reception is lousy here). I

had more friends when I lived back home in southern California, one huge

megatroplis with no way to tell when you left one town and entered another,

than I ever have had here.

**That must have been a major culture shock for you to go from Southern

California to Kansas. We lived in Kansas for a while in the early '80s when

my spouse was in the Army. It sucked!

For us aspies, there is also the problem that *we* might think we have a

best friend, but to the other person its just a casual accqaintance kind of

thing. So here we are, emotionally invested in that person, when they up and

leave. Bye, and thanks for all the fish. And there you are, heartbroken yet

again. Me, I cant take any more of it. I dont trust anyone that much now,

not even my husband. I can be on the edge of suicide, depressed and out of

my mind in pain, and there he is, sitting on his ass in front of his

computer, talking to *his* friends online, or in some damn chatroom. He has

bluntly told me he cant deal with me. But as Catholics, its 'till death do

you part'.

**So you're stuck in a louse marriage, too! Me too! I have Fibromyalgia and

Chronic Fatigue Syndrome on top of my other issues, so I cannot work, even

part-time (I've tried for six years), because all I can get is retail and

I'm physically unable to stand on my legs for hours and hours, among other

things. I'm also very sensitive to bright, artificial lights, esp.

fluorescent, noise, strong smells and rude, disrespectful people, who seem

to hold one in contempt for working retail.

D.

[Guest guest]

> I feel the same way- a *real* friend is someone to whom you can tell all

> your problems/vice versa, and know you can trust them to not go yammering it

> all over town.

I don't feel that I necessarily need to be able to go in depth into

problems with a friend, but I do need contact, I'd say really at least

two or three times a month, to feel there's a real friendship going

on. The closest I had (possibly until recently - we've fallen out) to

a friend is someone I used to live with as a lodger. She said she

wanted to remain friends, and I thought, great, but then it turns out

she doesn't feel the need to see me even once a month. I pointed out

recently that it's over three months since we deliberately met up and

her reply was that it seems I expect too much from friendship.

I agree with whoever it was that said a lot of ACs do deep friendship

but not superficial ones. I'm very much like that, but the end result

now is I don't seem to have any friends at all, despite there a few

people locally who would say they are friends. Maybe NTs need to go

through the superficial stages to get to deep friendship, and I just

can't persist with that. Or maybe they vary and the same friendship

can be deep sometimes and superficial other times and I just can't see

it through the superficial periods.

Does anyone else get people saying they'd love to do something with

them, but when you try to pin them down to a date they're always too

busy or tired? I can't help but wonder if this is polite NT lying,

but I do know it helps me not one bit. Despite all my experience when

someone says something like this - that they'd like to do something -

I still believe them, and then get let down all over again. You'd

think I'd learn.

But anyway, as I said I've devised ways to have contact with people

that aren't too demanding on them or me, and it's almost a reasonable

replacement for actual friendships. And as someone else said, there's

online contact too, though it's depressing when all the forums I'm on

go quiet for periods of time, like recent weeks.

Ruth

--

" Environmental problems are difficult to solve because Earth is a

" public good " .  Even though we would all be better off if everyone

reduced their environmental impact, it is not in anyone's individual

interest to do so.  This leads to the famous " tragedy of the commons " ,

in which public resources are overexploited and everyone suffers. "

New Scientist opinion article

[Guest guest]

Hi

Yes, you have hit the nail on the head! Sometimes I get the impression that they

don't want to be seen as not caring, but they don't want to make the effort to

accomodate they way that we are.

I need contact, with others but I find fitting int their society very difficult.

DIane Kivi

> I feel the same way- a *real* friend is someone to whom you can tell all

> your problems/vice versa, and know you can trust them to not go yammering it

> all over town.

I don't feel that I necessarily need to be able to go in depth into

problems with a friend, but I do need contact, I'd say really at least

two or three times a month, to feel there's a real friendship going

on. The closest I had (possibly until recently - we've fallen out) to

a friend is someone I used to live with as a lodger. She said she

wanted to remain friends, and I thought, great, but then it turns out

she doesn't feel the need to see me even once a month. I pointed out

recently that it's over three months since we deliberately met up and

her reply was that it seems I expect too much from friendship.

I agree with whoever it was that said a lot of ACs do deep friendship

but not superficial ones. I'm very much like that, but the end result

now is I don't seem to have any friends at all, despite there a few

people locally who would say they are friends. Maybe NTs need to go

through the superficial stages to get to deep friendship, and I just

can't persist with that. Or maybe they vary and the same friendship

can be deep sometimes and superficial other times and I just can't see

it through the superficial periods.

Does anyone else get people saying they'd love to do something with

them, but when you try to pin them down to a date they're always too

busy or tired? I can't help but wonder if this is polite NT lying,

but I do know it helps me not one bit. Despite all my experience when

someone says something like this - that they'd like to do something -

I still believe them, and then get let down all over again. You'd

think I'd learn.

But anyway, as I said I've devised ways to have contact with people

that aren't too demanding on them or me, and it's almost a reasonable

replacement for actual friendships. And as someone else said, there's

online contact too, though it's depressing when all the forums I'm on

go quiet for periods of time, like recent weeks.

Ruth

--

" Environmental problems are difficult to solve because Earth is a

" public good " .  Even though we would all be better off if everyone

reduced their environmental impact, it is not in anyone's individual

interest to do so.  This leads to the famous " tragedy of the commons " ,

in which public resources are overexploited and everyone suffers. "

New Scientist opinion article

[Guest guest]

I have heard this many times, too. Apparently, checking in on each other

once a year constitutes a friendship to many people.

In a message dated 7/15/2010 4:10:16 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

autisteruth@... writes:

her reply was that it seems I expect too much from friendship

[Guest guest]

Does anyone else get people saying they'd love to do something with

them, but when you try to pin them down to a date they're always too

busy or tired? I can't help but wonder if this is polite NT lying,

but I do know it helps me not one bit. Despite all my experience when

someone says something like this - that they'd like to do something -

I still believe them, and then get let down all over again. You'd

think I'd learn.

Yes, I hear you on this one and I get the same thing!

But anyway, as I said I've devised ways to have contact with people

that aren't too demanding on them or me, and it's almost a reasonable

replacement for actual friendships. And as someone else said, there's

online contact too, though it's depressing when all the forums I'm on

go quiet for periods of time, like recent weeks.

Yup, it's very hard for me not to fall into lonely despair when it's too

quiet.

[Guest guest]

Sometimes I have my NT children or friends proofread an email to let me

know if it sounds too pushy before I send it off.

In a message dated 7/15/2010 11:21:08 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

handwritingrepair@... writes:

What can I do?

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

From: Autiste Ruth

Does anyone else get people saying they'd love to do something with

them, but when you try to pin them down to a date they're always too

busy or tired? I can't help but wonder if this is polite NT lying,

**Yes, that's what it is. It seems to be a British/American thing.

D.

[Guest guest]

Re:

> Does anyone else get people saying they'd love to do something with

> them, but when you try to pin them down to a date they're always too

> busy or tired?

>

I get this often in my work. (I run my own business -- handwriting

tutoring.)

The people who do this are typically moms who call, saying that they found

me on the Internet their kids desperately need handwriting help (the kids

are very often Aspie teens) and I seem like exactly the right person, they

say they will pay any price, they say they've had word of mouth I'm the best

(and sometimes they name former clients of mine whom I know to have been

very happy with what I did for them), they ask for my prices and my usual

session-length and they say they're fine with that, and so on, etc., etc.,

etc. -- then when it comes around to actually scheduling an appointment,

they suddenly get vague and say: " I have to check my calendar to see what

times and dates are good, so I'll call/e-mail you back later today, or if I

don't call back then please phone or e-mail me tomorrow so we can get this

moving " ... and they don't call back (or if they do, it's to say that they

are still checking the calendar and so again I should call/e-mail tomorrow

if I don't hear from them) ... and when I call/e-mail at the time indicated

(often they've given me a time, not just a day, to call back) to see if they

can tell me anything further, they're not happy because they say that

" calling/e-mailing back this soon [on the day that they actually specified

and asked to be called back] is being too pushy because it's a form of

pressure " But if I learn from such experiences & therefore with the next

requester I call/e-mail back later than they specified -- or don't call back

at all -- they want to know why I didn't call back, and they conclude I'm

not really interested or committed, so either way I don't get the job. (And

often, when I wait that long before calling/e-mailing back, I STILL get told

I was too pushy and called back too soon: this has happened if I waited 3

days, if I waited a week, or if I waited two weeks or longer.)

Right about now, there are many parents calling/e-mailing and asking me to

help their kids' handwriting during summer vacation so the kids can go back

to school substantially improved -- the parents stress (and I agree) that

this is something to get moving on quickly, because if they put it off too

long it'll end up having to get done DURING the school year, on top of also

going to school and having homework, which is not so good ... but when I

take them seriously about wanting this, they vanish (and sometimes they call

back next month or a few months later or a year later, and try to get this

" call-desperately-and-vanish " cycle started again).

People I discuss this with (e.g., other self-employed professionals, and

also therapists -- and a job coach, briefly, before I fired him for being

even more clueless than most therapists) say I seem to be doing everything

right, that I am not being pushy at all, and that it is the other person who

is behaving wrongly and mis-evaluating me as " pushy " (I have brought in

e-mails to show the folks I discuss it with, because a lot of these

" contact-and-vanish " interactions take place via e-mail, making it possible

to analyze them.)

The therapists say that this seems to happen A LOT to those of their

patients who are self-employed Aspies (like me), but they can't figure out

why (since we appear to be doing the correct professional things but somehow

-- for instance -- my e-mails come across as " wrong " somehow when similarly

phrased e-mails from an NT do not: and the therapists admit this).

What can I do?

Kate Gladstone

[Guest guest]

> I have heard this many times, too. Apparently, checking in on each other

> once a year constitutes a friendship to many people.

>

See, I understand this if you live miles apart, but when it's someone

three houses up the road ... seems very different to me.

Ruth

--

" Environmental problems are difficult to solve because Earth is a

" public good " .  Even though we would all be better off if everyone

reduced their environmental impact, it is not in anyone's individual

interest to do so.  This leads to the famous " tragedy of the commons " ,

in which public resources are overexploited and everyone suffers. "

New Scientist opinion article

[Guest guest]

> etc. -- then when it comes around to actually scheduling an appointment,

> they suddenly get vague and say: " I have to check my calendar to see what

> times and dates are good, so I'll call/e-mail you back later today, or if I

> don't call back then please phone or e-mail me tomorrow so we can get this

> moving " ... and they don't call back ....

Have to admit I did this with someone offering AIT. I'd really quite

like to give it a go, I know it's unscienitic and everything, but my

hearing gives me so much angst - but the practicalities of the person

I was in contact with were pretty difficult - she's in the countryside

miles from anywhere and accomodation isn't easy to find and I have no

transport. I had some pretty intense dialogue with her but then it

trailed off with no commitment.

Ruth

--

" Environmental problems are difficult to solve because Earth is a

" public good " .  Even though we would all be better off if everyone

reduced their environmental impact, it is not in anyone's individual

interest to do so.  This leads to the famous " tragedy of the commons " ,

in which public resources are overexploited and everyone suffers. "

New Scientist opinion article

[Guest guest]

Re:

On Thu, Jul 15, 2010

>

> Have to admit I did this with someone offering AIT. I'd really quite

> like to give it a go, I know it's unscienitic and everything, but my

> hearing gives me so much angst - but the practicalities of the person

> I was in contact with were pretty difficult - she's in the countryside

> miles from anywhere and accomodation isn't easy to find and I have no

> transport. I had some pretty intense dialogue with her but then it

> trailed off with no commitment.

>

I presume that you at least told her *why*.

When this sort of thing happens to me,

if the person mentions practical problems, I understand these --

and I will do my best to work around such problems

(e.g., making house calls, if the person says s/he'd have a hard time

coming to me)

But the following situations have ALL happened:

/1/ the person was in the countryside, I offered to make a house call, she

enthusiastically agreed, but when it came to actually scheduling one, she

trailed away ...

/2/ the person was two blocks away and " desperately wanted " help for himself

and his whole family: " money is no object, time is not a problem, travel is

not a problem -- we've all agreed that we desperately need this " -- and then

he trailed away

/3/ a desperate mom (of a 13-year-old Aspie kid in my city who'd *asked* for

my help after finding me on the Net) got as far as making a first

appointment ... but then never showed up, and called me from her car on the

cellphone while driving [45 minutes into the scheduled hour] to say that,

no, she wasn't stuck in traffic or anything, but she didn't like the

time-slot and needed to re-schedule: I gave her the new date/time that she

asked for, and next time the same thing happened again [this time she was 50

minutes into the missed appointment], so I NEVER saw her once in all the six

weeks she kept this up [her " Oops, sorry, must re-schedule " calls were never

earlier than 35 minutes late] ... I charged her a cancellation-fee for

missed appointments, and she gladly paid via PayPal (money was NO problem

for that family!) ...

... the sixth time, she didn't reschedule -- instead, she said: " I

think we can both agree that this isn't working out. It's been six weeks

we've been trying to work with you, and if anything he's gone further

downhill ever since we heard about you. Your service is so obviously

ineffective that it amazes me you even bother to have a web-page. "

[WHAT?!!?]

And she continued: " You remember I was referred to you by a friend of mine,

a former client -- well, this should teach me not to trust word-of-mouth

referrals. "

Any ideas for how I can prevent (or cure) such behaviors in others?

Kate Gladstone

[Guest guest]

> I presume that you at least told her *why*.

Not really. I mean we'd discussed that it would be difficult.

Dialogue just trailed off and neither of us followed it up.

> Any ideas for how I can prevent (or cure) such behaviors in others?

You can't. I think it's quite common to feel great enthusiasm for

something but have difficulty or reluctance to actually act when the

time comes. There could be all sorts of reasons.

I've just thought of another one that is happening to me right now. I

heard of a new LGB choir in Bradford and thought, wow, that's amazing.

I got in touch and was later given a starting date for it, I think

it's Monday night next week. But since then I've had several concerns

about it and I'm thinking now I won't go, but I'm not sure I want to

explain my concerns to a stranger. I don't mind sharing them here

because you guys know I'm AC and will probably understand at least in

part. One is I lack social skills. I go to a local choir, but

there's a big difference (to me at least) going to a small town choir

consisting mostly of older folks and going to a big city choir

consisting of people who are there by virtue of their alternative

sexuality. I fear kind of being eaten alive by them, and not in a

good way! I'm also wary of travelling at night, especially when

winter comes - it's half an hour on the train, and Bradford station

doesn't seem all that safe to me. I do travel from Leeds at night

sometimes, but that's a big bright busy station and though it can be a

bit overloading it doesn't feel dangerous. And Im worried that if I

go to LGB events people will assume I'm available for a relationship,

and really I think I'm not, but then if I'm not at all interested why

go to something that's LGB at all? I mean I am lesbian if I'm

anything in terms of sexual orientation, but mostly I'm just not

interested and also very inexperienced.

I'm also rubbish about making phone calls, so chances are I'll just not turn up.

It's clear you're frustrated, but given the amount of experience you

have of enthusiastic people not committing in the event, I think you

just have to accept people are like that. It may not be an admirable

human trait, but I suspect there are all sorts of good reasons, some

conscious and some not.

Sorry if this is in any way incoherent, been a long day and I'm just

back from Leeds.

Ruth

--

" Environmental problems are difficult to solve because Earth is a

" public good " .  Even though we would all be better off if everyone

reduced their environmental impact, it is not in anyone's individual

interest to do so.  This leads to the famous " tragedy of the commons " ,

in which public resources are overexploited and everyone suffers. "

New Scientist opinion article

[Guest guest]

Re:

I think you

> just have to accept people are like that.

>

" Just accepting " hurts me -- actually even more than the other person's

[in]action itself.

I found that out the hard way.

When people tell me to " just accept, " I know that this is what people have

also told me to do about bullies and thieves.

When someone " just trails away " -- and, worse, treats the other person

nastily for caring to do what she'd been asked to do --

why should I decide that I ought to think this is fine --

why should I decide to just give up and assume that this is the right way

for people to be?

Another person's hesitation or unwillingness (for whatever reasons I do not

know, cannot know unless I'm told, and do not really care to know anyway)

cannot excuse the outright rudeness of his/her blaming me when I do exactly

what s/he told me to do.

When someone says

" Call me back tomorrow at 2:00 so we can schedule an appointment this

week " ---

and at the specified date and time I do exactly that,

and the other person greets me with

" How dare you call me back? Yes, I know we arranged for you to call

me back,

but after that I forgot about it, so it was your fault for

remembering ... "

-- yes, someone actually said this --

that is worse than merely " not admirable " :

it is swinish.

I would not brush off a burglary with " oh, people are like that " --

why should I thus brush off a theft of my time, my energy, and my good will?

(If the other person had just said:

" Oh, I've changed my mind and I really should have let you know, "

that would have been quite different & I would understand that

But to say:

" Yes, you did what I asked --

you gave me time, then called back at the arranged time --

and that was very wrong of you " --

or to do what some of them do, and say:

" Yes, I would have gone ahead if you *hadn't* called back as I

requested " ...

I can see no good reason for that at all. It leaves me overexploited.

Kate Gladstone

[Guest guest]

>

> " Just accepting " hurts me -- actually even more than the other person's

> [in]action itself.

> I found that out the hard way.

>

> When people tell me to " just accept, " I know that this is what people have

> also told me to do about bullies and thieves.

Well ... without making excuses for human nature, I think you have

some choice here to either sit with feeling wounded by the way people

work and how it impacts on the way you work, or to find some way to

deal with it so you're less upset by it. TBH however you feel about

it, from the number of stories you've told it looks like it's going to

happen over and over, and when you can't change other people (which

let's face it is most of the time) then all you can change is how

*you* deal.

You have the sense to know that people letting you down in this way

are not bullies or theives, they are just examples of a less desirable

part of human nature. They're not even intending to harm or mislead,

from their perspective I suspect they're just not following through

and there's probably some discomfort about it that prevents them

approaching you to let you know that. People are complicated, you

cant change them. You can get mad with them, you can get deeply

personally upset ... but what's the point? It's still going to

happen, to you and everyone else in the world pretty much.

I'm not trying to make you mad by saying these things, I just write

from experience - when I decide to take charge of my hurt feelings

life is easier, and when I bog down in them life hurts and people

suck.

Ruth

--

" Environmental problems are difficult to solve because Earth is a

" public good " .  Even though we would all be better off if everyone

reduced their environmental impact, it is not in anyone's individual

interest to do so.  This leads to the famous " tragedy of the commons " ,

in which public resources are overexploited and everyone suffers. "

New Scientist opinion article

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

From: Kate Gladstone

But the following situations have ALL happened:

/1/ the person was in the countryside, I offered to make a house call, she

enthusiastically agreed, but when it came to actually scheduling one, she

trailed away ...

/2/ the person was two blocks away and " desperately wanted " help for himself

and his whole family: " money is no object, time is not a problem, travel is

not a problem -- we've all agreed that we desperately need this " -- and then

he trailed away

/3/ a desperate mom (of a 13-year-old Aspie kid in my city who'd *asked* for

my help after finding me on the Net) got as far as making a first

appointment ... but then never showed up, and called me from her car on the

cellphone while driving [45 minutes into the scheduled hour] to say that,

no, she wasn't stuck in traffic or anything, but she didn't like the

time-slot and needed to re-schedule: I gave her the new date/time that she

asked for, and next time the same thing happened again [this time she was 50

minutes into the missed appointment], so I NEVER saw her once in all the six

weeks she kept this up [her " Oops, sorry, must re-schedule " calls were never

earlier than 35 minutes late] ... I charged her a cancellation-fee for

missed appointments, and she gladly paid via PayPal (money was NO problem

for that family!) ...

.... the sixth time, she didn't reschedule -- instead, she said: " I

think we can both agree that this isn't working out. It's been six weeks

we've been trying to work with you, and if anything he's gone further

downhill ever since we heard about you. Your service is so obviously

ineffective that it amazes me you even bother to have a web-page. "

[WHAT?!!?]

***Wow! This just makes my jaw drop! As far as I can tell, you never even

worked with her child, so how can she say your service is ineffective?? Hoe

can it be ineffective if you never had a chance to give it? The nerve of

some people! This is the reason why I avoid people!

Any ideas for how I can prevent (or cure) such behaviors in others?

***I wish I had an answer to that question. I think people would do the same

to me. Somehow they sense that we aim to please, maybe more than NTs, and

they take advantage of that. Maybe start charging a much higher cancellation

fee?

D.

[Guest guest]

Re:

>***Wow! This just makes my jaw drop! As far as I can tell, you never >even

>worked with her child, so how can she say your service is >ineffective??

That's right -- I never saw her child (or her -- there was that first

phone-call to set up a first session, and then just oops-I'm-sorry for the

first session and all the others).

She said -- the day she quit -- that she just had always " sort of felt " the

service would be ineffective, and so that's why she'd never tried really

hard to arrive (So why did she even call me in the first place and beg for

help?) The way she saw it, if my service had been possibly effective she'd

have WANTED to come -- the fact that she felt like " blowing " the sessions

for six solid weeks meant to her that she should " blow " them " because it's

important to listen to what your feelings are telling you " !!!!!!

Re:

>Maybe start charging a much higher cancellation

>fee?

If I raised my cancellation fee, it would come very close to my fee for

teaching the material. That would be wrong.

Also, even honest clients/potential clients would avoid me if I did that,

because anyone may sometimes have legitimate reasons for canceling a

session. Do I really want to become the kind of person who charges less for

actually having a lesson than for missing that lesson because of getting

stuck in traffic or having a plumbing-emergency or a death in the family?

Kate Gladstone

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

From: Kate Gladstone

She said -- the day she quit -- that she just had always " sort of felt " the

service would be ineffective, and so that's why she'd never tried really

hard to arrive (So why did she even call me in the first place and beg for

help?)

**Exactly!! <grrrrr>

The way she saw it, if my service had been possibly effective she'd

have WANTED to come -- the fact that she felt like " blowing " the sessions

for six solid weeks meant to her that she should " blow " them " because it's

important to listen to what your feelings are telling you " !!!!!!

**that's utter nonesense! She's just ill-mannered and rude!

If I raised my cancellation fee, it would come very close to my fee for

teaching the material. That would be wrong.

**No it wouldn't! It would keep people from standing you up and stringing

you along! If you work from home and run your own business, you have to be

assertive, or else people will walk all over you. I'm not assertive enough,

either, so stuff like that would happen to me, too. I'd be great if you

could enlist a go-between person, someone who's assertive and spells out the

rules, like cancel less than 24 hours prior and pay the entire fee.

Also, even honest clients/potential clients would avoid me if I did that,

because anyone may sometimes have legitimate reasons for canceling a

session. Do I really want to become the kind of person who charges less for

actually having a lesson than for missing that lesson because of getting

stuck in traffic or having a plumbing-emergency or a death in the family?

**Oh, everybody always has some type of emergency? Yes, stuff happens, but

come on! If you work at a place, say, and every day you call in and give

another excuse as to why you can't come to work today, they'll fire you - at

least they would in the US. I think most of these 'emergencies' were

made-up.

D.

[Guest guest]

Oh, I can " be assertive and spell out the rules, " all right -- when I do,

most people believe me but some (like the woman I describe) do not. (And

I've found that they have even less belief for a " go-between " if I have

someone else do that job instead of tackling it myself.)

Re:

>>. Do I really want to become the kind of person who charges less for

>>actually having a lesson than for missing that lesson because of getting

>>stuck in traffic or having a plumbing-emergency or a death in the family?

>**Oh, everybody always has some type of emergency?

No -- most people just have an emergency once or maybe twice (because most

people don't act as I described), and I don't want to treat *them* wrongly.

So how do I design a policy that's fair for them & that *also* fairly

punishes the kind of person I described?

Kate Gladstone