Re: Re: AAAAARRRRRGGGGGGHHHHH!

[Guest guest]

> I have no idea. None at all. And that is what I must find out and it

seems

> to me that I can only find it out by being around him and seeing how he

> holds up.

Ooze.

Men have a way of ooooooooooooozing back into our homes. Our lives. Our

hearts.

It's easy, and quite natural because having a father in the picture is quite

appropriate. Children are more or less accepting to it, and some, like

Sophie, are extremely pleased. Afterall, most children want one mom, one

dad.

I don't blame you one bit for not knowing what you want. My head tells me

that I would rather beat my own head against the wall than have a man beat

it for me........... but my heart wants to believe that he learned his

lesson, and that he genuinely wants his family back. I want to believe that

people can change, and that people can learn. Shaun and I have broken up

countless times in the past, during those easy dating times. Many times, he

HAS learned and hasn't made the same mistake. Others, he is still sticking

to, and it still bothers me. Of course, none were as serious as what Lou

did to you... but still... some men do learn.

That said, Salli... he's trying. But I do believe it has been entirely too

easy for him thus far. He was able to be free of you guys for as long as he

wanted, and now that he is ready to come home, he's just oozed back in. No,

I don't think so. Take it up a couple notches, Salli, and throw in some big

hurdles. Anyone can be nice and polite in good times. It's how one reacts

in the bad times that counts. I am totally accepting of the fact that some

marriages will fall apart, and some will get back together. But nobody, not

mom and not dad, can leave a marriage for as long as Lou has been absent,

and expect to come back this easily. There is a price to pay for

everything, and if it were up to me, my price for Lou would be that he can

come back, but only if he is a better man than he was before, in all

aspects. I wouldn't want the same man back. I've waited this long and

managed for this long, damned if I take back the old furniture. I would opt

for the same style, but MUCH NICER.

> I have. Oh, I definitely have. But he has not asked for them.

Well, of course not. He is oozing closer and closer to moving back in with

them LOL.

Grace

>

> Salli

>

>

>

_________________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

> He brought my blue pitcher back last night.

>

That must be TERRIBLY confusing for you. :-(

Jacquie

[Guest guest]

> Am I psychic???

If he had left sooner than 1 a.m., I would have entitled my post HE RETURNED

THE BLUE PITCHER! In fact, I had an almost irresistable urge to rush to the

computer and email you all when he walked in the house carrying it. As it

was, the kids and I kept whispering to each other, " He brought back the blue

pitcher. "

He acted as if it was no big dea.

>

> Ok, now I'm worried.. That was a big deal. (and a long time ago) he

> was NOT going to give that back....

Yup.

>

> Is he for real, or is he just realizing how crappy and expensive it

> is to be alone??

Kerri:

I have no idea. None at all. And that is what I must find out and it seems

to me that I can only find it out by being around him and seeing how he

holds up.

>

> Kerri

> (keep his books though..)

I have. Oh, I definitely have. But he has not asked for them.

Salli

[Guest guest]

Thanks, . I needed that. But I am terribly polite (and not just with

Lou). I remember leading a La Leche League meeting when a woman with a

head injury came and insisted on talking endlessly about blue green algae.

After a bit, it became clear that only real rudeness would have any effect

on her and I failed miserably at it. I must say that I have led meetings

for twelve years without encountering a situation where rudeness was

actually required to get a point across. I don't like situations where good

manners break down.

But I think I will have to say that we are going to bed. NICELY though.

Salli

>

> Hey, Salli, you need to find the guts to kick his sorry ass outside

> in the snow. Something like:

>

> " I don't need you around. Things are smoother, easier, and

> generally more pleasant when you aren't anywhere nearby. I am

> intelligent, savvy, and courageous enough to manage on my

> own. And besides, you throwing things at my head can be really

> distracting on occasion.

>

> Don't let the door hit you on the way out... "

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> > He brought my blue pitcher back last night.

> >

>

> That must be TERRIBLY confusing for you. :-(

You betcha.

Salli

[Guest guest]

> Ooze.

> Men have a way of ooooooooooooozing back into our homes. Our lives. Our

> hearts.

> It's easy, and quite natural because having a father in the picture is

quite

> appropriate. Children are more or less accepting to it, and some, like

> Sophie, are extremely pleased. Afterall, most children want one mom, one

> dad.

Do you think he knows he is oozing? I like your terms...

>

> I don't blame you one bit for not knowing what you want. My head tells me

> that I would rather beat my own head against the wall than have a man beat

> it for me........... but my heart wants to believe that he learned his

> lesson, and that he genuinely wants his family back.

Yes.

I want to believe that

> people can change, and that people can learn. Shaun and I have broken up

> countless times in the past, during those easy dating times. Many times,

he

> HAS learned and hasn't made the same mistake. Others, he is still

sticking

> to, and it still bothers me. Of course, none were as serious as what Lou

> did to you... but still... some men do learn.

Sometimes.

>

> That said, Salli... he's trying. But I do believe it has been entirely

too

> easy for him thus far. He was able to be free of you guys for as long as

he

> wanted, and now that he is ready to come home, he's just oozed back in.

No,

> I don't think so. Take it up a couple notches, Salli, and throw in some

big

> hurdles.

Such as?

Anyone can be nice and polite in good times.

Well, I am delighted to have the kids behave badly. And I wore ratty old

pajamas and my glasses (not my contacts) with one arm missing. I did not

look at all attractive.

It's how one reacts

> in the bad times that counts. I am totally accepting of the fact that

some

> marriages will fall apart, and some will get back together. But nobody,

not

> mom and not dad, can leave a marriage for as long as Lou has been absent,

> and expect to come back this easily. There is a price to pay for

> everything, and if it were up to me, my price for Lou would be that he can

> come back, but only if he is a better man than he was before, in all

> aspects. I wouldn't want the same man back. I've waited this long and

> managed for this long, damned if I take back the old furniture. I would

opt

> for the same style, but MUCH NICER.

Those are my sentiments exactly. I just have to figure out what and who he

is now.

>

> > I have. Oh, I definitely have. But he has not asked for them.

>

> Well, of course not. He is oozing closer and closer to moving back in

with

> them LOL.

OOZE.

Salli

[Guest guest]

> Then he lay on the couch and read. Pretty harmless actually but I feel

> confused about what I want.

....

> But I have no idea what I will do except try to go to bed when he has

> outstayed his welcome.

Salli, shot in the dark here. Could you set a length of time after which

you would like him to leave? " I'm really not comfortable with you being

over for more than 2 hours at a time for now. " (or whatever.)

-Sara.

[Guest guest]

>

> You said " At first " ....then...then...then..

Then he lay on the couch and read. Pretty harmless actually but I feel

confused about what I want. I was pleased with him for returning the blue

pitcher (after a year). Oddly enough it did not look as beautiful as I

remembered, but it is still beautiful and MY sister gave it to me.

>

> Salli, it's Christmastime. We are all going to get caught up in the

> spirit of the Season. Dont let that stop you from thinking

> objectively.

>

> Penny - The one you said had a lot of common sense. Remember?

I do, Penny, and I still agree.

But I have no idea what I will do except try to go to bed when he has

outstayed his welcome.

Salli

[Guest guest]

>

> Salli, shot in the dark here. Could you set a length of time after which

> you would like him to leave? " I'm really not comfortable with you being

> over for more than 2 hours at a time for now. " (or whatever.)

Sounds like a reasonable practical suggestion.

Salli

[Guest guest]

But I have no idea what I will do except try to go to bed when he has

outstayed his welcome.

Salli

Salli: Lou, it's late, the children and I need to get to bed. It's time for you

to leave. Now.

Lou: Grumble Grumble Excuse Excuse

Salli: Nope, sorry you don't have to go home, but you can't stay here.

Kerri

Mom to:

Mitchel 6, Autistic

8.5 - NT

See the Family: http://www.johnswdwpage.com/family.htm

" I thank God and America for the right to live and raise my family

under the flag of tolerance, democracy and freedom. "

-Walt Disney

[Guest guest]

> Salli, shot in the dark here. Could you set a length of time after which

> you would like him to leave? " I'm really not comfortable with you being

> over for more than 2 hours at a time for now. " (or whatever.)

Sounds like a reasonable practical suggestion.

Salli

Which is why it may not work on Lou.

Kerri

[Guest guest]

If he didn't have an ulterior motive, he would have

> given it back ages ago. Now it's like, 'look at me. I'm giving you what

> you wanted. See, I'm better.'

I am sure he did have an ulterior motive. I made big reaction to the return

of the pitcher, just said, " Oh, thanks, " and put it away.

> Sorry Salli, but I don't like the feel of this part at all.

> Sue, who's waiting to be told to mind her own business at any time.

But I think you bear me good will so why should I object?

Salli

[Guest guest]

> Which is why it may not work on Lou.

Thanks, Kerri, you took the words right out of my mouth.

Salli

[Guest guest]

> > Which is why it may not work on Lou.

>

> Thanks, Kerri, you took the words right out of my mouth.

Dang, and I was so happy to be practical and reasonable for once!

-Sara.

[Guest guest]

>

> Dang, and I was so happy to be practical and reasonable for once!

>

But, Sara, you still ARE practical and reasonable. It's Lou that is not.

Salli

[Guest guest]

Now, see, I'm so cynical, I look at it as he brought the pitcher back now to

buy his way back in. If he didn't have an ulterior motive, he would have

given it back ages ago. Now it's like, 'look at me. I'm giving you what

you wanted. See, I'm better.'

Sorry Salli, but I don't like the feel of this part at all.

Sue, who's waiting to be told to mind her own business at any time.

Re: Re: AAAAARRRRRGGGGGGHHHHH!

>

> > He brought my blue pitcher back last night.

> >

>

> That must be TERRIBLY confusing for you. :-(

>

> Jacquie

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>

> Dang, and I was so happy to be practical and reasonable for once!

>

But, Sara, you still ARE practical and reasonable. It's Lou that is not.

Salli

Which I was about to type !!

Kerri

[Guest guest]

> But I think you bear me good will so why should I object?

>

Salli -

Therein lies the problem.

All of us wish you the very best, and surely, you know that none of us have

any ulterior motives.

But - - this is your life, your heart, your emotions and your future <as

well as that of your children's> we're discussing here, and I feel very

cautious. To say what I feel from where *I* stand, which is on the very

OUTSIDE, is easy. My emotions are not involved in this, and we, on this

list, can see this for what it is, BASED ON WHAT YOU HAVE TOLD US. On the

same token, the very last thing I would want is for what we say on this list

to hurt you.... even if it DOES lead you to make better decisions... even if

it is the right advice. To be perfectly sensible, you have been doing too

well on your own, and he has not been doing as well, PLUS he stands to lose

a whole lot more through this divorce. To continue to be sensible, one

would claim that he is no good for you or your family - - and is no good for

you as a husband.

But to imagine myself in your shoes, I find that I would feel differently

than what would be most sensible. Most of my decisions are based on emotion

rather than sense anyhow, and through these threads, I am feeling VERY

confused between the two. I reckon you must be too.

My point, you ask?

I don't have one. I just wanted to say that. Do you have a problem with

that? )

Grace

_________________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

> All of us wish you the very best, and surely, you know that none of us

have

> any ulterior motives.

I agree.

> But - - this is your life, your heart, your emotions and your future <as

> well as that of your children's> we're discussing here, and I feel very

> cautious. To say what I feel from where *I* stand, which is on the very

> OUTSIDE, is easy. My emotions are not involved in this, and we, on this

> list, can see this for what it is, BASED ON WHAT YOU HAVE TOLD US. On the

> same token, the very last thing I would want is for what we say on this

list

> to hurt you.... even if it DOES lead you to make better decisions... even

if

> it is the right advice.

I am not easily wounded. Especially not when people have good intentions.

To be perfectly sensible, you have been doing too

> well on your own, and he has not been doing as well, PLUS he stands to

lose

> a whole lot more through this divorce.

Well, not with Enrique.

To continue to be sensible, one

> would claim that he is no good for you or your family - - and is no good

for

> you as a husband.

> But to imagine myself in your shoes, I find that I would feel differently

> than what would be most sensible. Most of my decisions are based on

emotion

> rather than sense anyhow, and through these threads, I am feeling VERY

> confused between the two. I reckon you must be too.

I certainly am!

Salli

[Guest guest]

> Alone, Salli.....

>

> Right? ;o)

Well, not EXACTLY. Robbie, Putter, Sophie AND Dartie the kitten were all

there.

Salli

[Guest guest]

> I have a question....

>

> Has Lou asked you and the kids to visit him at HIS place?

>

Lou lives in a tiny apartment. Very very small. One chair, one single bed,

kitchen with only hot plates and no stove. It is very clean and tidy and we

would definitely mess with his stuff.

Salli

[Guest guest]

> Lou lives in a tiny apartment. Very very small. One chair, one

> single bed,

> kitchen with only hot plates and no stove. It is very clean and

> tidy and we

> would definitely mess with his stuff.

Salli, I know you know this...but...

That is sssssooooooooooooo autistic I can't get over it.

Actually that's how I'd love to live. Enough furniture to sit on, and hold

all the books, and that's really all I'd need. But Matt is a pack-rat, and

then we had kids.

Really, I have to go through all their toys and get rid of at least half of

them.

Rambling,

-Sara.

[Guest guest]

> To be perfectly sensible, you have been doing too

> > well on your own, and he has not been doing as well, PLUS he stands to

> lose

> > a whole lot more through this divorce.

>

> Well, not with Enrique.

Alright. No, you have not been doing all that great with Enrique, but you

have been doing better with him than any other mom in the world would be, so

that is the best possible result for Enrique. Comprende?

I haven't heard any Enrique meltdowns since Lou has been around.

Why is this?

Grace

_________________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

> But I think you bear me good will so why should I object?

>

> Salli

>

What to you mean 'THINK'? (Visualize Sue looking mortified here)

Surely you should know by now that I want nothing but good for you, which is

why I have even responded to this thread! (Along with everyone else who

responded) : c)

Take care!

Sue

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[Guest guest]

>

>

> Alright. No, you have not been doing all that great with Enrique, but you

> have been doing better with him than any other mom in the world would be,

so

> that is the best possible result for Enrique. Comprende?

> I haven't heard any Enrique meltdowns since Lou has been around.

>

> Why is this?

>

Grace:

Ah, yes. There have not been any. Enrique has been fine. He TELLS me he

is terribly stressed out but he is not acting terribly stressed out. What

does this mean?

1. He is secretly pleased about Lou developments.

2 He is too terrified to let his terror show

3. He and have formed an alliance against the common enemy Lou.

4. He is finding life interesting right now.

Any other ideas? I have no idea which one is true; it may even be some odd

combination of all or some of those reasons.

But he is not having meltdowns and he is not frightening little siblings.

Salli