Re: not sure at all

[Guest guest]

Rhonda wrote:

>Anyway, I am feeling a bit like I don't want to talk to ANYONE, not

>even this list of people I barely " know, " since I am fairly certain I

>will just piss people off, hurt their feelings, etc. etc.

Don't worry. Some of us (e.g., me) won't even notice if you do

something to piss us off. ;-)

>Also, I DO realize that probably what I should have been able to do

>is be a bit more calm and say " Gee, it's SO nice to see you, would

>you like to come in for exactly 5 minutes? "

Maybe make a sign to put on your front door (when you are working)

that says, " I am at work now and cannot allow myself to be

interrupted except for genuine emergencies. Thank you for allowing me

to earn a living for myself and my family. " (Yes, I'm being a bit

sarcastic. Why is it so hard for people to understand " I'm working " ?)

>Maybe I am not autistic. Maybe I am just an insensitive self-

>righteous bitch. I really can't tell. The only reaon I am posting

>this is to see if someone can shed some light on it.

I can't shed any light, sorry. After my brother and sister-in-law and

their four kids had been dropping by my house on Christmas Eve for a

number of years, it occurred to me that a " normal " person (knowing

that these family members were going to visit on Christmas Eve) might

buy some food and/or drink to offer them. I thought about it for a

few minutes, realized I had no idea what to buy, hated the thought of

having people dropping crumbs around, and didn't want to prolong the

visit beyond the absolute minimum, and therefore decided to continue

as usual with nothing.

It's possible your friend had some " hidden agenda " going on. Maybe

she was upset or unhappy and was looking for a shoulder to lean on

(or cry on). If you were NT, maybe you'd have " picked up on " some

signals of that sort and responded " appropriately. " I don't know. The

way she responded to your explanation sounds kind of like that NT

reaction where the offended NT person refuses to say anything but

" You know what you did " (when, of course, the autistic person has no

idea at all of what s/he did to upset anyone).

Jane

[Guest guest]

That's a good idea about putting a sign on the door.

The paragraph you wrote about food makes me laugh. My husband is

always offering food to people, even when we DO have something to

offer I don't think of it. If they want to eat, they should raid the

fridge! Anyway, I also forget to eat and forget what kinds of food

exist. I once shared a small house with a roommate for about a year.

One day she looked at me and said " Your side of the refrigerator has

no food. You need to EAT! " I thought about it for a minute, got a

piece of paper and pencil, and asked her to " name some food. " She

didn't seem TOO surprised. I remember she started with " Lettuce...

then went on to name things like bread and milk and stuff I

apparently had forgotten existed. The only one I remember is the

lettuce!

The one thing I wonder about my friend having a hidden agenda is that

she is the one I told recently about taking the autism quotient test

and getting a high score... and she said it made sense to her, seeing

as I am way different than most of her other many friends. I keep

thinking " Maybe this a science experiment to see how the autistic

person would react to someone showing up and making a (non-

verbalized) demand? " Well, I really don't think so. Apparently they

had been in the neighborhood and decided to stop by. But her

subsequent email made me wonder if in retrospect she was

thinking " the autistic person failed me... " Oh well. Let's hope it's

not all that complicated.

Rhonda

After my brother and sister-in-law and

> their four kids had been dropping by my house on Christmas Eve for

a

> number of years, it occurred to me that a " normal " person (knowing

> that these family members were going to visit on Christmas Eve)

might

> buy some food and/or drink to offer them. I thought about it for a

> few minutes, realized I had no idea what to buy, hated the thought

of

> having people dropping crumbs around, and didn't want to prolong

the

> visit beyond the absolute minimum, and therefore decided to

continue

> as usual with nothing.

>

> It's possible your friend had some " hidden agenda " going on. Maybe

> she was upset or unhappy and was looking for a shoulder to lean on

> (or cry on). If you were NT, maybe you'd have " picked up on " some

> signals of that sort and responded " appropriately. " I don't know.

The

> way she responded to your explanation sounds kind of like that NT

> reaction where the offended NT person refuses to say anything but

> " You know what you did " (when, of course, the autistic person has

no

> idea at all of what s/he did to upset anyone).

>

> Jane

>

[Guest guest]

n 4-Jul-06, at 4:50 PM, rhndroberts wrote:

> My husband is always offering food to people, even when we DO have

> something to

> offer I don't think of it. If they want to eat, they should raid the

> fridge!

Yup. That's why I always tell my few close friends/relatives that my

home is their home and they can help themselves. I sometimes remember

to offer coffee to guests (other than those few close friends/relatives

who know what to do) if it's on, but normally I got too much other

stuff to deal with when it comes to being visited to fall into that

naturally.

> The one thing I wonder about my friend having a hidden agenda is that

> she is the one I told recently about taking the autism quotient test

> and getting a high score... and she said it made sense to her, seeing

> as I am way different than most of her other many friends. I keep

> thinking " Maybe this a science experiment to see how the autistic

> person would react to someone showing up and making a (non-

> verbalized) demand? " Well, I really don't think so. Apparently they

> had been in the neighborhood and decided to stop by. But her

> subsequent email made me wonder if in retrospect she was

> thinking " the autistic person failed me... " Oh well. Let's hope it's

> not all that complicated.

> It seems like it is better not just not try to communicate because

> it's WORSE when I do and it backfires and once again no matter what I

> try I am the big screw-up. Unless I efface myself and take all the

> blame. It seems to work then because the person will still be my

> friend, even if I don't get my needs met or listened to....

It's all very familiar. I have one NT friend who drives me crazy

wondering what the hell it is she wants from me, and wondering why I

put up with such a one-sided relationship when it comes to " give and

take " . Maybe we attract people who like to walk all over you for

whatever reason. In the end, the question I end up asking is " do they

give a shit about me at all? " If the answer is " no " , I pull away from

the relationship, as I'm doing now, and giving less. But for the most

part, I've got some decent friends who don't try and walk all over me,

where things aren't always about them and and their meaningless chit

chat.

> The way she responded to your explanation sounds kind of like that NT

> reaction where the offended NT person refuses to say anything but

> " You know what you did " (when, of course, the autistic person has no

> idea at all of what s/he did to upset anyone).

Oh, yes, we know that one.

a,_._,___

[Guest guest]

How about trying the absolute truth on this " friend? "

Nothing wrong with that.

Don't even lie it at your husband's feet.

Relax. You aren't required under any social nicety law to offer anyone any

dam thing.

Roll it off.

In my opinion its of little importance. Its one of those social laws " in her

head. "

If she doesn't know about the spectrum, maybe you could tell her, or not,

that's up to you.

But in any case, don't lose sleep over it.

>

> Remember when I said I had my ONE friend? Well, apparently I did the

> wrong thing and upset her so maybe down to no friends. Don't know.

> She came over to my house unannounced the other day, bringing a small

> child with her. I was at work. I work at home so I guess it looks

> like I have a bunch of free time and can stop at anyone's whim, even

> though she knows I work all night and sometimes get about 4 hours of

> sleep. I was a bit frantic-sounding because she expected me to stop

> what I was doing and spend some time with them. I told her I simply

> could NOT hang out at this time. She asked if they could have some

> water or juice. We happened to only have water in the house...She

> then sent me an email saying she was upset that I did not offer the

> kid some cookies or whatever. We actually had about one piece of

> bread and some water in the house. I had tried in vain to get my

> husband to go shopping but he hadn't gotten around to it yet. I did

> give the little boy some water but there certainly wasn't anything

> interesting to eat! How would I know he was hungry if he or she

> didn't tell me so? He's not my kid. I looked at the answering machine

> and they had not called or anything, just came over. I was the only

> one here. If my son had been here I would have said he could play but

> that I was going to go back to work, but since I was the only one

> here and it looked like they might be settling in for the day....

> since I had no idea why they were here anyway!...I acted and sounded

> TENSE.

>

> So I wrote back something that I know for sure, that if I showed up

> at her place with my child and expected her to offer us food and

> drink, on no notice at all, when she was at work, she might do the

> same thing. In fact, I have been over at her place when she was very

> busy and she told me so at that time. Well, that was definitely the

> wrong thing to remind her of because she wrote back and said no she

> was very upset and the obviously she was wrong, and she just did not

> want to talk about it anymore. I had also explained that it is not

> just my house but my work site and that I need notice so I can plan

> to not have work if she is here. That has always worked well in the

> past.

>

> It seems to me that I am surrounded by people who say " I was wrong

> and I don't want to talk about it, " which leaves me in the position

> of having to keep my mouth shut in order to appease them. I don't

> think they even think they did something wrong, it's just that thing

> of saying " Oh I was wrong, you were right, you win, now would you

> shut up? " I guess I am sick of that. I did not tell her she was wrong

> to come over, just that I could not easily stop when I am in the

> middle of editing. My brain does not work that way.

>

> Anyway, I am feeling a bit like I don't want to talk to ANYONE, not

> even this list of people I barely " know, " since I am fairly certain I

> will just piss people off, hurt their feelings, etc. etc. I am just

> tired of always being the one who is wrong and gets told " I don't

> want to talk to you. " That leaves me having to do the perky chit chat

> thing...to me the only point of doing perky chit chat is if you ALSO

> can talk about other things to the person. Otherwise why bother

> talking with them if it is always going to be superficial.

>

> So I sent her ONE last email to the effect that I was NOT trying to

> say she was wrong, just that I was trying to explain why it did not

> work for me. I should probably have picked another example than

> something she has done because maybe it made her defensive or not

> listened to.

>

> It seems like it is better not just not try to communicate because

> it's WORSE when I do and it backfires and once again no matter what I

> try I am the big screw-up. Unless I efface myself and take all the

> blame. It seems to work then because the person will still be my

> friend, even if I don't get my needs met or listened to....

>

> I guess this just sounds like I am feeling sorry for myself. I guess

> I AM feeling sorry for myself.

>

> Also, I DO realize that probably what I should have been able to do

> is be a bit more calm and say " Gee, it's SO nice to see you, would

> you like to come in for exactly 5 minutes? " (Then I would go back to

> work and try to remember wtf I was just editing, since I do a lot of

> it in my head by some sort of intuitive process that I can't even

> explain.... but it would come across that I was a gracious hostess on

> the spot and that's the important thing.

>

> I can't stop from sounding cynical. I guess I should not even try.

>

> I have to go read the blurb about this group to see if we are allowed

> to whine about our own personal shit or not. I forget. If it looks

> like I can say anything I want then I will post it. I forget how it

> was worded.... OK, it looks like I can say anything I want as long as

> I don't attack anyone, which I don't think I did.

>

> Maybe I am not autistic. Maybe I am just an insensitive self-

> righteous bitch. I really can't tell. The only reaon I am posting

> this is to see if someone can shed some light on it.

>

> Rhonda

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Yeah... I am starting to wonder about " NT rules " anyway. The friend

wrote back to me and said that since we had each stated our position

once, she figured that was time to drop the subject! This reminds me

of typical diplomatic posturing between two beligerent countries.

Here I thought we autistic people were the ones who didn't do any

give-and-take and all that. I was kind of into the negotiating and

learning something about each other thing... I did ask my NT husband

if this was typical... I didn't say " of you people " but I think he

knew what I meant. He said he didn't think it was the standard way to

carry on a conversation and he didn't think it was a very good idea

either. I do think I aggravated it by stating my " position " twice,

the second time included what I thought SHE might do if I showed up

unannounced at her workplace, as a way to think of it. But I guess

she didn't want to do that much thinking. Sigh. I am not as upset

about it as I was, but I do notice a tendency in myself to want to be

RIGHT and have her acknowledge it. I don't think I am going to go

there, though! I just thought of something. Maybe my friend isn't as

NT (or as " normal " ) as I thought, or as she thinks....

Rhonda

> >

[Guest guest]

My 2 cents? Then I'll drop it?

About your neighbor dropping in and expecting things and all?

Maybe (take this or leave it) could be when you reach a point

of self acceptance, maybe even to the extent you choose to

reveal your self to others , but at the minimum, at least your

own self acceptance, if you're at that point-

then I say the next step is-

self forgiveness for a lot of things. Then you start sighing, relaxing,

exhaling, the whole bit. And you realize what's important. You are

really. Not any rules, or who's right, etc. etc.

kimberly

>

> Yeah... I am starting to wonder about " NT rules " anyway. The friend

> wrote back to me and said that since we had each stated our position

> once, she figured that was time to drop the subject! This reminds me

> of typical diplomatic posturing between two beligerent countries.

> Here I thought we autistic people were the ones who didn't do any

> give-and-take and all that. I was kind of into the negotiating and

> learning something about each other thing... I did ask my NT husband

> if this was typical... I didn't say " of you people " but I think he

> knew what I meant. He said he didn't think it was the standard way to

> carry on a conversation and he didn't think it was a very good idea

> either. I do think I aggravated it by stating my " position " twice,

> the second time included what I thought SHE might do if I showed up

> unannounced at her workplace, as a way to think of it. But I guess

> she didn't want to do that much thinking. Sigh. I am not as upset

> about it as I was, but I do notice a tendency in myself to want to be

> RIGHT and have her acknowledge it. I don't think I am going to go

> there, though! I just thought of something. Maybe my friend isn't as

> NT (or as " normal " ) as I thought, or as she thinks....

>

> Rhonda

>

>

> > >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Rhonda wrote:

>>>We happened to only have water in the house...She

then sent me an email saying she was upset that I did not offer the

kid some cookies or whatever.

This reminds me of something that happened the other day. We were having our

satellite dish worked on and at one point the worker came in to check to see

if the signal was coming through on the television. At one point he

commented how hot it was outside. Now, my husband is always prompting me to

be a good hostess, so I immediately wondered if this was NT speak for

wanting something cold to drink.

So I asked him if he wanted something, like a soda. He declined and said

that he had something in the truck, and that also he could stop at the store

when he left. A little bit later hubby comes home and he grabs something

from the fridge and goes outside. A little while later the guy comes back in

the house with a can of soda.

I asked Dick if he got it from him and he said yes. I told him that I had

asked him 5 minutes before if he wanted a soda and he had said no. Dick said

he just handed him the soda and he took it. Now I wonder if he really did

want something to drink, changed his mind, or wanted to be polite to my

husband since Dick did not ask if he wanted it, but just handed it to him.

>>It seems to me that I am surrounded by people who say " I was wrong

and I don't want to talk about it, " which leaves me in the position

of having to keep my mouth shut in order to appease them.

It has been my experience that most people don't like being wrong, and when

they are, don't like to be reminded of it. I don't like being wrong either,

but have no problem saying so when I am. Dick finds it interesting that I so

readily admit when I am.

>>Also, I DO realize that probably what I should have been able to do

is be a bit more calm and say " Gee, it's SO nice to see you, would

you like to come in for exactly 5 minutes? "

Heh, if anyone comes over to my house without calling first they will get

the dragon lady. Dick doesn't like that I react that way but from my POV

this is my house, my space, and people should not just be able to invade it

without my permission.

Take care,

Gail :-)

[Guest guest]

Gail wrote:

>I asked Dick if he got it from him and he said yes. I told him that I had

>asked him 5 minutes before if he wanted a soda and he had said no. Dick said

>he just handed him the soda and he took it. Now I wonder if he really did

>want something to drink, changed his mind, or wanted to be polite to my

>husband since Dick did not ask if he wanted it, but just handed it to him.

I've been told (in the course of studying Persian) that in Iran there

is a ritual everyone is expected to go through. If someone visits

you, you offer tea (which means tea-and-something-sweet, such as a

coffee cake). The visitor politely refuses. You offer again, the

visitor refuses. Then, on your third offer, the visitor accepts, as

both of you knew s/he would all along.

That's the kind of social interaction that is an important (useful,

constructive) part of many NT cultures but drives me crazy.

Jane

[Guest guest]

That custom bears significant similarities to what I experience in Poland

whenever I'm there, and I'm always very keen to follow whenever I have guests

myself. If you refuse food & drink while in Poland after the third time asked,

it's considered quite rude, since it implies that the food and drink the host

prepared (which is invariably prepared from scratch and takes several hours of

work) is not good enough for you.

This also extends to a guest being in the home. If the guest assists in any

aspect of their visit, such as clearing the table of dishes, or preparing any

food (even something as trivial as boiling water for tea or coffee), it is

considered quite rude as well, since that also implies that the host didn't do

enough to make sure his guest(s) was/were taken care of, and the guest had to do

something themselves.

" The truth is, I never fooled anyone about who I really am. People did a good

enough job of that on their own. They would create a character of me in their

minds, and be thoroughly disappointed when I failed to live up to that. " -

Marilyn Monroe

Debogorski

elcap1999@...

Re: not sure at all

Gail wrote:

>I asked Dick if he got it from him and he said yes. I told him that I had

>asked him 5 minutes before if he wanted a soda and he had said no. Dick said

>he just handed him the soda and he took it. Now I wonder if he really did

>want something to drink, changed his mind, or wanted to be polite to my

>husband since Dick did not ask if he wanted it, but just handed it to him.

I've been told (in the course of studying Persian) that in Iran there

is a ritual everyone is expected to go through. If someone visits

you, you offer tea (which means tea-and-something- sweet, such as a

coffee cake). The visitor politely refuses. You offer again, the

visitor refuses. Then, on your third offer, the visitor accepts, as

both of you knew s/he would all along.

That's the kind of social interaction that is an important (useful,

constructive) part of many NT cultures but drives me crazy.

Jane

[Guest guest]

Jane wrote:

>>I've been told (in the course of studying Persian) that in Iran there

is a ritual everyone is expected to go through. <snip> Then, on your third

offer, the visitor accepts, as

both of you knew s/he would all along.

That's the kind of social interaction that is an important (useful,

constructive) part of many NT cultures but drives me crazy.<<

That would drive me around the bend as well! I don't see how this is either

constructive or useful. Just confusing.

Take care,

Gail :-)