Re: MMR -- how about the R?

[Guest guest]

> I don't mean to be rude, but other than the fact that you once had

> it, why do you think there might be a connection? I'm not familiar

> with any evidence to that effect and I'm not exactly sure what

> chain of logic led you to that hypothesis. Clarification would be

> appreciated if you feel there's a credible argument to be made

> there.

I don't know that there is. Lots of people of a certain generation

had Rubella. Most of them are not autistic.

My mother had it, and as a result she's got to wear incredibly thick

glasses, but there were no neurological changes.

The only connection I see with Rubella, at all, is that there's

evidence that Rubella babies are more often autistic. (As well as

more often deaf, and a lot of other things.)

[Guest guest]

I honestly don't care about your opinion toward this or the opinions

of the so called better researchers. My son has had several tests

that reflect heavy metal toxicity (primarily mercury and lead),

chronic virus, chronic candidiasis and many other medical problems.

Since starting treatment 3 years ago, he has been getting better.

We continually monitor his blood and urine through lab work. You

can say what you want, I know the truth. I have, in the last year

began to work on myself and I am getting better........still

asperger but I'm not always sick at least. I just started chelating

myself a week or so ago so I can't say that has helped yet. I don't

believe vaccines cause everything but I do believe they are a major

cause. Conventional medicine failed my son and me. Niether of us

got any better on any of the drugs they put us on. Conventional

medicine couldn't even stop my son's seizures which were continiuing

to get worse until he started biomedical 3 years ago. Since

starting biomedical, he has not had 1 seizure. I am not going to

argue about all of this. I was just putting the information out

there for the person/people who was/were interested enough to ask

about it. There are reasons I will not get into right now for your

referenced people or organizations to say the things they said but I

can assure you that it has nothing to do with reliability of the

sources I provided.

>

> le - I have researched this publication, since you were so

kind

> as to send the information on it. The Journal of American

Physicians

> and Surgeons is published by a generic association of physicians,

not

> of the top (or even mid-level) researchers in their fields. It is

not

> considered a serious research journal by any of the research

> librarians at the University or the Medical School with whom I have

> spoken today. It seems to be considered somewhat of a sick joke,

> actually, foisted on the desperate and uneducated.

>

> Quite frankly, from having looked through the site, the

credentials of

> the authors of many of the pieces, and at some of the articles on

the

> site, I'm leaning towards agreeing with what I've heard today. It

> reads more like a soapbox for those who are more interested in

putting

> a spin on their personal views than the actual accuracy of the

> information. This is not serious research.

>

> Taking these guys too seriously would be like assuming the guy who

can

> fly the piper cub over at the local airport was an expert on the

finer

> points of navigating the space shuttle. The basics are the same,

but

> they just don't have either the education or research experience

to be

> taken very seriously except by those who are unfamiliar with the

> scientific peer-review process.

>

> Put plainly, you've got marginally qualified people making some

pretty

> broad statements that are not, as far as I can tell, backed up by

> other, rigorously controlled and reviewed studies. You'd do better

> looking for research results on PubMed or Sage. The pub you

reference

> reads like the National Enquirer of the medical world, sorry! I

really

> can't give it a lot of credibility. Best - Nannersone

[Guest guest]

le - Bless you, dear. Any port in a storm. Sorry to hear of

your problems, and of those of your son. You sound pretty desperate. I

will pray that you're not being taken advantage of and that you find

some peace and any solutions there may be to your and your son's issues.

If you find something that makes you feel better, physically or

emotionally, I think that's wonderful. Believe whatever works for you

- there's quite a lot to be said for the power of positive thought.

Just be careful, as some of the " alternative " treatments being touted

out there move beyond being benign and can cause damage.

Please understand that my post was not a personal attack on you. I

simply dislike seeing snake-oil sold to people who have no other

options. I do hope for the best for you and your son. - Nannersone

> >

> > le - I have researched this publication, since you were so

> kind

> > as to send the information on it. The Journal of American

> Physicians

> > and Surgeons is published by a generic association of physicians,

> not

> > of the top (or even mid-level) researchers in their fields. It is

> not

> > considered a serious research journal by any of the research

> > librarians at the University or the Medical School with whom I have

> > spoken today. It seems to be considered somewhat of a sick joke,

> > actually, foisted on the desperate and uneducated.

> >

> > Quite frankly, from having looked through the site, the

> credentials of

> > the authors of many of the pieces, and at some of the articles on

> the

> > site, I'm leaning towards agreeing with what I've heard today. It

> > reads more like a soapbox for those who are more interested in

> putting

> > a spin on their personal views than the actual accuracy of the

> > information. This is not serious research.

> >

> > Taking these guys too seriously would be like assuming the guy who

> can

> > fly the piper cub over at the local airport was an expert on the

> finer

> > points of navigating the space shuttle. The basics are the same,

> but

> > they just don't have either the education or research experience

> to be

> > taken very seriously except by those who are unfamiliar with the

> > scientific peer-review process.

> >

> > Put plainly, you've got marginally qualified people making some

> pretty

> > broad statements that are not, as far as I can tell, backed up by

> > other, rigorously controlled and reviewed studies. You'd do better

> > looking for research results on PubMed or Sage. The pub you

> reference

> > reads like the National Enquirer of the medical world, sorry! I

> really

> > can't give it a lot of credibility. Best - Nannersone

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you. I really do appreciate what you said. I didn't think

you were launching a personal assault on me, as I was not attempting

to attack your character. Please do pray for us. I do believe in

God and the power of prayer.

Before my son's diagnosis, I believed what you believe. I am about

to graduate from a major university. I am neither stupid nor

naive. I know what a double blind placebo controlled study is.

Three years ago, immediately preceeding our journey into the

biomedical world, our doctor warned me that I should not waste money

on biomedical treatment. If I hadn't " wasted my money " , I would

never have found my son's 19 IgG food allergies that I could not get

the doctors to test him for. I would not have gotten him treated

for his overgrowth of intestinal yeast that caused many of his

intestinal and behavioral problems. Yes, he did have medical tests

for this. Dr. Cave (our biomedical MD) said Nick had some of the

worst or most (don't recall which word) toxins from yeast she had

ever seen. Every time it comes back, Nick's ears get red, he gets

purple circles under his eyes, he gets hyper and aggressive, his

sensory issues worsen and he can't cocentrate to save his life.

When we treat with antifungal meds, all of this disappears. His lab

tests that we have done every 2 and a half months show what metals

and in what quantity are coming out. This child had diarrhea every

day of his life until we started biomedical. Since starting

biomedical, he has not had diarrhea once! He used to get sick all

of the time. We were at the doctor's office almost every week.

Since starting biomedical, he has not been sick once. Everybody in

the house can get sick and he will not. Saturday, we will start

meds for his viral load........confirmed by medical tests.

Every time we see our family doctor for well visits or for my nephew

or my mother or myself (when one of us goes, we all go because I

don't have a babysitter), he comments on how much my son has

improved from the previous visit. This doctor has also stated that

Nick is not even the same kid he was 3 years ago.

I am not doing all of the biomedical treatment on a half-cocked

whim. Medical testing has proved the need for every supplement or

medicine my son has taken. This treatment is also supervised by a

medical doctor, not a homeopath or anyone like that, although I do

believe in homeopathy.

Three years ago, one of the first tests was one that observed Nick's

blood cells under the microscope. His rbc's were misshapen

(teardrop spape) and clustered. They are supposed to be round and

not clustered. Three or so weeks ago, the same test was performed.

The rbc's were round this time, as they were supposed to be. But

they were stacked, meaning a toxic metal load, as I already knew

from lab reports. So even though I have been slowly chelating Nick

for 2 and a half years, he still has enough toxic metals to stack

his red blood cells.

My son's progress is NOT all in my head. It is substantiated by

medical lab reports and progress as reported by doctors, peers,

family and teachers.

>

> le - Bless you, dear. Any port in a storm. Sorry to hear of

> your problems, and of those of your son. You sound pretty

desperate. I

> will pray that you're not being taken advantage of and that you

find

> some peace and any solutions there may be to your and your son's

issues.

>

> If you find something that makes you feel better, physically or

> emotionally, I think that's wonderful. Believe whatever works for

you

> - there's quite a lot to be said for the power of positive thought.

> Just be careful, as some of the " alternative " treatments being

touted

> out there move beyond being benign and can cause damage.

>

> Please understand that my post was not a personal attack on you. I

> simply dislike seeing snake-oil sold to people who have no other

> options. I do hope for the best for you and your son. - Nannersone

[Guest guest]

le - Where is all that heavy metal coming from? It's not normal

for anyone to have it in their bodies - it ~doesn't~ form naturally in

the body. The way heavy metals get into the body are via ingestion or

inhalation. Some also might be absorbed directly through the skin - I

think mercury can be pretty dangerous that way, from touching

contaminated soil or surfaces.

Has your home been fumigated in recent years? Some of the termite and

roach fumigants used to use mercury and/or arsnic compounds, I believe

(not sure about that). Could it still be lurking in the wood and

seeping back into your living quarters? Are you near any chemical

plants or electrical power plants that burn petrochemicals or coal?

Are you in old housing that may have lead paint, or with lead water

pipes? If the pipes could be the problem, you need to be on bottled

water. If the paint is the problem, are you able to move to somewhere

safer? If not, can you slap a good coat of latex sealant paint down

over the leaded paint? Have you had your yard soil (if you have a

yard) tested for heavy metal/pesticide toxicity? People used to be

really awful about just dumping pesticides on their yards without

thinking of the long-term impacts on the soil. If you are in the USA,

your county extension agent should be able to refer you to a lab, or

be able to take the sample him/herself for you.

I do know about yeast issues. I have a good friend who had serious

problems with yeast infections in places one normally does not have

them (her lungs). It was a particularly nasty, rare strain of yeast,

not a variety that they see very often. She was mis-diagnosed for

years, because the doctors were not accustomed to dealing with it and

did not run the appropriate tests to detect it. They told her she had

everything from asthma to COPD. Once the infection was cleared up

(which took years), her health improved tremendously. Until then, she

had dark circles under her eyes, problems concentrating, fits of

temper that came out of nowhere, extreme fatigue, and a host of minor

problems.

Unfortunately, yeast really doesn't appear to have much to do with

Aspergers or Autism as far as I am aware, although the byproducts it

creates can certainly make you sick as a dog. I guess, if a clinician

were in a hurry, they might mistake the symptoms caused by the yeast

byproducts to be indicative of something on the Autism spectrum. I

wonder if you were both/either misdiagnosed? - Nannersone

> >

> > le - Bless you, dear. Any port in a storm. Sorry to hear of

> > your problems, and of those of your son. You sound pretty

> desperate. I

> > will pray that you're not being taken advantage of and that you

> find

> > some peace and any solutions there may be to your and your son's

> issues.

> >

> > If you find something that makes you feel better, physically or

> > emotionally, I think that's wonderful. Believe whatever works for

> you

> > - there's quite a lot to be said for the power of positive thought.

> > Just be careful, as some of the " alternative " treatments being

> touted

> > out there move beyond being benign and can cause damage.

> >

> > Please understand that my post was not a personal attack on you. I

> > simply dislike seeing snake-oil sold to people who have no other

> > options. I do hope for the best for you and your son. - Nannersone

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you for this post. I will try give you an appropriate reply tomorrow.

I'd do it now but it will take some time and I have a 5 chapter microbiology

exam tomorrow morning that I need to finish studying for.

nannersone wrote: le - Where is all that heavy

metal coming from? It's not normal

for anyone to have it in their bodies - it ~doesn't~ form naturally in

the body. The way heavy metals get into the body are via ingestion or

inhalation. Some also might be absorbed directly through the skin - I

think mercury can be pretty dangerous that way, from touching

contaminated soil or surfaces.

Has your home been fumigated in recent years? Some of the termite and

roach fumigants used to use mercury and/or arsnic compounds, I believe

(not sure about that). Could it still be lurking in the wood and

seeping back into your living quarters? Are you near any chemical

plants or electrical power plants that burn petrochemicals or coal?

Are you in old housing that may have lead paint, or with lead water

pipes? If the pipes could be the problem, you need to be on bottled

water. If the paint is the problem, are you able to move to somewhere

safer? If not, can you slap a good coat of latex sealant paint down

over the leaded paint? Have you had your yard soil (if you have a

yard) tested for heavy metal/pesticide toxicity? People used to be

really awful about just dumping pesticides on their yards without

thinking of the long-term impacts on the soil. If you are in the USA,

your county extension agent should be able to refer you to a lab, or

be able to take the sample him/herself for you.

I do know about yeast issues. I have a good friend who had serious

problems with yeast infections in places one normally does not have

them (her lungs). It was a particularly nasty, rare strain of yeast,

not a variety that they see very often. She was mis-diagnosed for

years, because the doctors were not accustomed to dealing with it and

did not run the appropriate tests to detect it. They told her she had

everything from asthma to COPD. Once the infection was cleared up

(which took years), her health improved tremendously. Until then, she

had dark circles under her eyes, problems concentrating, fits of

temper that came out of nowhere, extreme fatigue, and a host of minor

problems.

Unfortunately, yeast really doesn't appear to have much to do with

Aspergers or Autism as far as I am aware, although the byproducts it

creates can certainly make you sick as a dog. I guess, if a clinician

were in a hurry, they might mistake the symptoms caused by the yeast

byproducts to be indicative of something on the Autism spectrum. I

wonder if you were both/either misdiagnosed? - Nannersone

> >

> > le - Bless you, dear. Any port in a storm. Sorry to hear of

> > your problems, and of those of your son. You sound pretty

> desperate. I

> > will pray that you're not being taken advantage of and that you

> find

> > some peace and any solutions there may be to your and your son's

> issues.

> >

> > If you find something that makes you feel better, physically or

> > emotionally, I think that's wonderful. Believe whatever works for

> you

> > - there's quite a lot to be said for the power of positive thought.

> > Just be careful, as some of the " alternative " treatments being

> touted

> > out there move beyond being benign and can cause damage.

> >

> > Please understand that my post was not a personal attack on you. I

> > simply dislike seeing snake-oil sold to people who have no other

> > options. I do hope for the best for you and your son. - Nannersone

>

[Guest guest]

Good luck! I hated micro.

> > >

> > > le - Bless you, dear. Any port in a storm. Sorry to hear of

> > > your problems, and of those of your son. You sound pretty

> > desperate. I

> > > will pray that you're not being taken advantage of and that you

> > find

> > > some peace and any solutions there may be to your and your son's

> > issues.

> > >

> > > If you find something that makes you feel better, physically or

> > > emotionally, I think that's wonderful. Believe whatever works for

> > you

> > > - there's quite a lot to be said for the power of positive thought.

> > > Just be careful, as some of the " alternative " treatments being

> > touted

> > > out there move beyond being benign and can cause damage.

> > >

> > > Please understand that my post was not a personal attack on you. I

> > > simply dislike seeing snake-oil sold to people who have no other

> > > options. I do hope for the best for you and your son. - Nannersone

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

TY! I hate it too! It's the only science class I have not liked.

nannersone wrote: Good luck! I hated micro.

> > >

> > > le - Bless you, dear. Any port in a storm. Sorry to hear of

> > > your problems, and of those of your son. You sound pretty

> > desperate. I

> > > will pray that you're not being taken advantage of and that you

> > find

> > > some peace and any solutions there may be to your and your son's

> > issues.

> > >

> > > If you find something that makes you feel better, physically or

> > > emotionally, I think that's wonderful. Believe whatever works for

> > you

> > > - there's quite a lot to be said for the power of positive thought.

> > > Just be careful, as some of the " alternative " treatments being

> > touted

> > > out there move beyond being benign and can cause damage.

> > >

> > > Please understand that my post was not a personal attack on you. I

> > > simply dislike seeing snake-oil sold to people who have no other

> > > options. I do hope for the best for you and your son. - Nannersone

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I had german measles as well for what it is worth.

kimberly

>

> It crossed my mind the other day -- took all day to cross that vast, empty

> space ;-) -- that with consideration of the MMR vaccine as a causative

> factor in Autistic spectrum conditions, the focus has only been on the

> mercury content of the vaccine. Has anyone studied the relationship

> between Rubella -- sometimes called German Measles -- and AS?

>

> My Mom told me I had German Measles as a child, which I don't recall, as I

> was quite young at the time, and I wonder if there might be some

> relationship there. I have this vague impression that Rubella is less

> common than the other two viruses, which might mean that there would have

> been less exposure to that virus before the MMR vaccine became common.

> But I don't know if anyone has looked into that possibility.

>

> Also, am I remembering correctly that viruses readily cross the blood-

> brain barrier? If so, that also might be suggestive.

>

> I know that the " MMR myth " is something of a bugaboo here, but it's in my

> nature to look for causes and patterns in things, and this smells like a

> possible pattern.

>

> --

>

> B. , another satisfied user of

> Pegasus Mail Client and Mercury MTA <http://www.pmail.com>

> <ftp://ftp.usm.maine.edu/pegasus/winpmail/w32-431.exe>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

wrote:

> It crossed my mind the other day -- took all day to cross that vast,

> empty space ;-) -- that with consideration of the MMR vaccine as a

> causative factor in Autistic spectrum conditions, the focus has only

> been on the mercury content of the vaccine.

The MMR vaccine never contained any mercury. The measles vaccine within

the MMR was/is a live attentuated virus, and the mercury (which was put

into some vaccines as a preservative; preservatives are supposed to kill

microbial pathogens) would have destroyed the attentuated virus.

, who just happened to catch this message

[Guest guest]

le wrote:

> I honestly don't care about your opinion toward this or the opinions

> of the so called better researchers. My son has had several tests

> that reflect heavy metal toxicity (primarily mercury and lead),

" Dubious Mercury Testing " from Quackwatch

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Tests/mercurytests.html

> Since starting treatment 3 years ago, he has been getting better.

More or less so than the control group?

In other words, how do you know he would not have gotten better anyway?

> I am not going to argue about

> all of this.

Yeah, a lot of folks who think they know everything and can't possibly

be wrong say that. It's called dogma.

[Guest guest]

wrote:

>Yeah, a lot of folks who think they know everything and can't possibly

>be wrong say that. It's called dogma.

Hey, ! Nice to see your fine Italian claw in my inbox again

after such a long time!

Jane

P.S. " Fine Italian claw " is a reference from one of the Freddy the

Pig books I read in childhood. It means handwriting (or in this case,

's name in the Tree inbox).

[Guest guest]

That's just stupid. I don't presume to know everything. You people who don't

know anyone who has done biomedical and gotten better think you know everything

about this. You are just stuck in your ways of thinking. If my son had not

been exposed to mercury, he would not have mercury coming out in his urine when

given DMSA. If he didn't have a viral load, it would not be reflected in his

blood. Yes, he is getting better than the controls would. He immediately

stopped having seizures, etc. IgG food allergies are important. He has 19 of

them. I couldn't get any of the doctors who seem to think like you to test him

for them. If they had, that would mean they prescribed to the same way of think

as you. When we were able to finally afford to see a DAN! doctor, he was tested

for all of this. Keeping him away from the foods he has allergies to makes a

BIG difference. Think what you will. I am not the one presuming to know

everything, just the truth about my son's

health status. You could ask anyone who knew us before and after we began

biomedical treatment. They will tell you the same things, that it HAS made a

difference.

Klein wrote: le wrote:

> I honestly don't care about your opinion toward this or the opinions

> of the so called better researchers. My son has had several tests

> that reflect heavy metal toxicity (primarily mercury and lead),

" Dubious Mercury Testing " from Quackwatch

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Tests/mercurytests.html

> Since starting treatment 3 years ago, he has been getting better.

More or less so than the control group?

In other words, how do you know he would not have gotten better anyway?

> I am not going to argue about

> all of this.

Yeah, a lot of folks who think they know everything and can't possibly

be wrong say that. It's called dogma.

[Guest guest]

Most of the general public in the civilized world, has teflon from nonstick

cookware in their bloodstreams too.

NTs, and ACs alike. There has not been an uprising for extraction of teflon

extraction.

It may well be impossible to remove, to eradicate what mankind has done to

our bodies.

K

>

> That's just stupid. I don't presume to know everything. You people who

> don't know anyone who has done biomedical and gotten better think you know

> everything about this. You are just stuck in your ways of thinking. If my

> son had not been exposed to mercury, he would not have mercury coming out in

> his urine when given DMSA. If he didn't have a viral load, it would not be

> reflected in his blood. Yes, he is getting better than the controls

> would. He immediately stopped having seizures, etc. IgG food allergies are

> important. He has 19 of them. I couldn't get any of the doctors who seem

> to think like you to test him for them. If they had, that would mean they

> prescribed to the same way of think as you. When we were able to finally

> afford to see a DAN! doctor, he was tested for all of this. Keeping him

> away from the foods he has allergies to makes a BIG difference. Think what

> you will. I am not the one presuming to know everything, just the truth

> about my son's

> health status. You could ask anyone who knew us before and after we began

> biomedical treatment. They will tell you the same things, that it HAS made

> a difference.

>

> Klein wrote: le wrote:

>

> > I honestly don't care about your opinion toward this or the opinions

> > of the so called better researchers. My son has had several tests

> > that reflect heavy metal toxicity (primarily mercury and lead),

>

> " Dubious Mercury Testing " from Quackwatch

> http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Tests/mercurytests.html

>

> > Since starting treatment 3 years ago, he has been getting better.

>

> More or less so than the control group?

>

> In other words, how do you know he would not have gotten better anyway?

>

> > I am not going to argue about

> > all of this.

>

> Yeah, a lot of folks who think they know everything and can't possibly

> be wrong say that. It's called dogma.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I am reminded of what I learned in my Chem about how we are all constantly

exposed to background radiation, no matter where we are. It's not

significantly harmful, but tell that to the average person and they'll

suddenly look around in a panicky way, wondering if there skin is suddenly

going to melt. *rollseyes*

>

> Most of the general public in the civilized world, has teflon from

> nonstick

> cookware in their bloodstreams too.

> NTs, and ACs alike. There has not been an uprising for extraction of

> teflon

> extraction.

> It may well be impossible to remove, to eradicate what mankind has done to

> our bodies.

>

>

>

> K

>

>

>

> >

> > That's just stupid. I don't presume to know everything. You people who

> > don't know anyone who has done biomedical and gotten better think you

> know

> > everything about this. You are just stuck in your ways of thinking. If

> my

> > son had not been exposed to mercury, he would not have mercury coming

> out in

> > his urine when given DMSA. If he didn't have a viral load, it would not

> be

> > reflected in his blood. Yes, he is getting better than the controls

> > would. He immediately stopped having seizures, etc. IgG food allergies

> are

> > important. He has 19 of them. I couldn't get any of the doctors who

> seem

> > to think like you to test him for them. If they had, that would mean

> they

> > prescribed to the same way of think as you. When we were able to

> finally

> > afford to see a DAN! doctor, he was tested for all of this. Keeping him

> > away from the foods he has allergies to makes a BIG difference. Think

> what

> > you will. I am not the one presuming to know everything, just the truth

> > about my son's

> > health status. You could ask anyone who knew us before and after we

> began

> > biomedical treatment. They will tell you the same things, that it HAS

> made

> > a difference.

> >

> > Klein wrote: le wrote:

> >

> > > I honestly don't care about your opinion toward this or the opinions

> > > of the so called better researchers. My son has had several tests

> > > that reflect heavy metal toxicity (primarily mercury and lead),

> >

> > " Dubious Mercury Testing " from Quackwatch

> >

> http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Tests/mercurytests.html

> >

> > > Since starting treatment 3 years ago, he has been getting better.

> >

> > More or less so than the control group?

> >

> > In other words, how do you know he would not have gotten better anyway?

> >

> > > I am not going to argue about

> > > all of this.

> >

> > Yeah, a lot of folks who think they know everything and can't possibly

> > be wrong say that. It's called dogma.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

EPA, DuPont Settle Teflon Lawsuit

(Page 1 of 2)

CHARLESTON, W.Va., Nov. 29, 2005

---------------------------------------------------------------------

-----------

(AP / CBS)

Fast Fact

The EPA alleged that DuPont for 20 years covered up important

information about C8's health effects and about the pollution of

water supplies near the company's Washington Works plant.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

-----------

(AP) Federal regulators have reached an agreement with DuPont to

settle allegations the company hid information about the dangers of

a toxic chemical known as C8 used in the manufacture of Teflon.

Lawyers for DuPont and the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency told

an administrative law judge on Nov. 23 that they had reached a final

agreement, but needed more time to put together the paperwork. Judge

Barbara A. Gunning then gave the parties until Jan. 13 to file the

formal agreement.

" The request for additional time is to accommodate EPA's procedural

rules which require the Environmental Appeals Board to review and

approve any settlement reached by the parties, " the EPA said Tuesday

in a statement.

Officials from both the EPA and DuPont refused to release terms of

the deal.

" We are not commenting on that particular issue at this time, " said

Robin Ollis, spokeswoman for DuPont Co.'s Washington Works plant

south of sburg, W.Va.

The EPA alleged that DuPont for 20 years covered up important

information about C8's health effects and about the pollution of

water supplies near the company's Washington Works plant.

Under federal law, DuPont could face civil fines of more than $300

million for not reporting information that showed C8

posed " substantial risk of injury to health or the environment. " The

company has set aside $15 million to cover the costs of the lawsuit,

according to corporate disclosures filed with the Securities and

Exchange Commission.

DuPont also faces a federal criminal investigation of its actions

concerning C8 pollution, the company has told shareholders. Since

May, DuPont and the EPA repeatedly have said they were close to a

settlement in the civil case, but had one item left to resolve. They

would not identify that item.

(AP)

DuPont has maintained that C8, also known as perfluorooctanoic acid

or PFOA, has no negative health effects. In February, DuPont settled

a class-action lawsuit for $107.6 million brought by Ohio and West

Virginia residents in 2001, alleging the Wilmington, Del.-based

company intentionally withheld and misrepresented information

concerning the nature and extent of the human health threat posed by

C8.

The EPA in July 2004 filed a complaint that alleged DuPont had

caused " widespread contamination " of drinking water supplies near

its Washington Works plant. The EPA also alleged DuPont never told

the government the company had water tests that showed C8 in

residential supplies in concentrations greater than the company's

own internal limit.

The EPA alleged DuPont withheld the results of a test showing that

at least one pregnant worker from the Washington Works plant had

transferred the chemical from her body to her fetus. That

information, the EPA said, supported animal tests showing that

C8 " moves across the placental barrier. "

The EPA said that agency efforts to understand C8's health

effects " might have been more expeditious " if DuPont had submitted

the human test results in 1981.

Shares of DuPont rose 50 cents, or 1.2 percent, to $43.61 in

afternoon trading on the New York Stock Exchange.

>

> Most of the general public in the civilized world, has teflon

from nonstick

> cookware in their bloodstreams too.

> NTs, and ACs alike. There has not been an uprising for extraction

of teflon

> extraction.

> It may well be impossible to remove, to eradicate what mankind has

done to

> our bodies.

>

>

>

> K

[Guest guest]

wrote:

> It sounds like you do when you say such self-aggrandizing

statements

> like " I'm not going to argue about this. " It sounds like you are

saying

> that you know the facts, and whatever anyone else tells you to the

> contrary be damned. I have never said that.

I don't argue because I can't. I have never been able to argue

effectively for or against anything in my life no matter what it

is. Finally I stopped trying. I can barely have a conversation

that makes any sense to the person with whom I am conversing. I am

a LITTLE better with typing and writing because that gives me more

time but it doesn't make enough difference for me to put myself

through the stress it produces for me to attempt to defend my point

of view. It's much easier for me to just put information out there

and let other decide for themselves. I'll admit that I do have

trouble accepting other peoples' opinions when those opinions differ

drastically from what I passionately believe. I know this is a bad

thing and I am trying SO hard to get over this. This is part of the

reason I have no social life. I usually just try to not talk at all

when it is obvious that people don't subscribe to my way of thinking

because I don't like conflict.

> " You people? " Exactly which people are we?

I did not mean anything offensive by this remark. I simply meant

those of you who are against the possibility of heavy metal toxicity

or anything similar being the cause of autism. I also meant those

of you who are opposed to any sort of biomedical treatment and the

possibility of anyone with autism ever getting better with any sort

of biomedical intervention.

> It would not matter if I knew ten people who were saying the same

as

> you. That is not proof. That is what is called " anecdotal

evidence, "

> and there is a reason that the term " anecdotal evidence " is

connotated

> negatively as it is.

Call it what you want, my son is not sick anymore. He was 8 years

old when we started biomedical. He had a SEVERE speach delay.

Within a week and a half of beginning an anti-yeast protocol and MB

12 injections, his speach became understandable for the first time

in his life. And this was in the summer time, there was no speach

therapist for him in the summer, only in school because at the time,

he was Medicaid only and I could not find a therapist around here

who took Medicaid. But I guess you will say that his speach

just " spontaneously " became understandable and that had nothing to

do with any of this? Or do you think it was a placebo effect? Or

maybe placebo by proxy?

> I am not the one who self-righteously declared that he was not

going to

> argue about this.

I explained above why I don't choose to argue. It has more to do

with the fact that I know that I don't know enough, rather than I

think I know it all. You have misread me.

> > If my son had not been exposed to mercury, he would not

> > have mercury coming out in his urine when given DMSA.

> Who performed the test? Was it the guy selling you the

chelation? I

> wouldn't trust the results of any so-called test under those

> circumstances.

Dr. Cave is a woman. No, she did not perform the tests. The Mayo

Clinic performed some, Doctor's Data performed others. Both are

labs independent of Dr. Cave's office, not even in the same state.

Are those labs acceptable? Or do you still think the tests were

fixed.

> Let's presume for a second that the test was accurate.

> Mercury is all over the place. It exists in large amounts in the

coal

> which is burned to make our electricity, which puts it into the

air we

> breathe. It is in the soil. It is in the oceans in large

amounts, and

> thus is in every animal that comes from the sea, like fish. Are

you

> aware that one regular sized can of albacore tuna contains more

mercury

> than the highest total of mercury that infants ever received?

You are right, mercury is all over the place. We do not eat tuna.

> Further, DMSA cannot cross the blood-brain barrier. Since autism

takes

> place in the brain, it would be impossible for DMSA to fix it.

And even

> if it could get through the blood-brain barrier, the DMSA would

only

> free up the bound mercury-- NOT undo the damage the mercury had

already

> done.

The problem with that is that heavy metal toxicity causes

nutritional deficiencies. My son is on all kinds of supplements and

that is a major reason he is no longer sick all of the time and

convulsing frequently. He no longer has a nutritional deficiency.

That is more than just CNS involvement. Yes, the metals do bind to

organs. That is why it took nearly 2 years of chelation for mercury

and lead to come out of my son in large quantities.

> It is well established that chelation should only be used to stop

acute

> heavy metal poisoning-- that is, to keep it from getting worse

before

> the damage has been done. Once the exposure is no longer acute,

> chelation is contraindicated. It is a dangerous therapy that

should not

> be fooled around with.

Chelation is only dangerous if done improperly. EDTA, the chelating

agent used by mainstream MD's to chelate lead is the one everyone

hears about causing deaths. EDTA is not part of the DAN

protocol.

> The kinds of folks that sell chelation for autism are the same

ones that

> were or are selling it for arteriosclerosis. Yeah, they think

EDTA can

> " chelate " the fatty deposits right out of your blood vessels.

It's the

> new snake oil... only the original snake oil wasn't so dangerous.

Once again, EDTA is NOT part of the DAN protocol. I have never

heard of chelating for arteriosclerosis. That does not make any

sense. Dr. Cave only chelates if a DMSA chalenge test reveals that

chelation is necessary. I know of quite a few patients she has

treated and chose not to chelate.

> > I couldn't get any of the doctors who seem to think like

> > you to test him for them.

> Nor would they test for cooties, I would imagine. While I mean

that

> tongue-in-cheek, the point is that they won't pursue things that

are not

> supported by the science unless they are incompetent, or unless

they

> want your money so bad that they don't care about upholding the

> Hippocratic oath they had taken.

The main test I was begging for was the IgG allergy test.

> > When we were able to

> > finally afford to see a DAN! doctor,

> DAN is a bunch of quacks. I have read the nonsense that Rimland

> believes is science. It's nonsense, closer to Scientology than

> science.

DAN doctors are not quacks. Dr. Cave is the only doctor out of

SEVERAL who has made any dent in my son's health. Everyone else

prescribed drugs that made him worse or said they didn't know what

the problem was. None of them could figure out anything to do that

helped him in any real way.

Once people believed leeches were useful to get rid of the bad

> blood, too. Someone had to be there swearing up and down that it

works

> for that fantasy to last as long as it did-- just as you are now

with

> something equally as well supported by facts.

Scientific facts are constantly being disproved. The leech thing you

are siting above was considered science at the time by the

conventional doctors you are advocating. Conventional doctors also

once believed it was unnecessary to wash their hands between

patients and therby acted as vectors, transferring pathogens.

> Did you have a look at that Quackwatch article? They have stuff

about

> candida and other such " everyone has it " things that pop health

folks

> love as well.

Yes, candida is present in every person on the planet and is not

ordinarily a problem. Candida becomes a problem when there is

overgrowth. Candida, pathogenic bacteria and normal flora all

compete for space in the intestinal tract, etc. When a person takes

a broad spectrum antibiotic, all bacteria are killed, including

normal flora. If a person takes enough antibiotics and doesn't

replace normal flora with probiotics, candida overgrowth occurs.

This is a problem as it can cause leaky-gut syndrome, food allergies

and further immunocompromise. My son had ear infections every other

month until he was 4 and took more antibiotics than I can count.

This is probably how this happened to him. My microbiology

professor said that if you get enough yeast in your blood, it will

kill you. Is he a quack? He teaches microbiology at a major

university.

> > Keeping him away from the foods he has allergies to makes a BIG

> > difference.

>

> Food allergies are documented and real.

You say that about food allergies now but above, you said testing my

son for what I was asking would be analogous to testing for

cooties. When Nick was 4, I suspected food allergies and took him

to a major university medical center and asked for the test. They

tested him for IgE allergies, not IgG allergies and said since he

didn't have IgE allergies, he had no allergies. Tests 4 years later

revealed 19 IgG allergies. Dr. Cave, a DAN doctor, drew the blood

for this test. The mainstream docs you are advocting REFUSED to

test my son for these! He has 19! There are serious behavioral and

health consequences if he eats one of the foods listed as +2 or +3

allergies. A friend who didn't know any better, gave him milk and

ruined an entire vacation once. Nutritional deficiencies, food

allergies and a chronic overgrowth of candida all cause serious

health and behavioral issues.

[Guest guest]

>

> le - Bless you, dear. Any port in a storm. Sorry to hear of

> your problems, and of those of your son. You sound pretty

desperate.

I am not desperate anymore. My son is no longer sick. That is what

was important. He is also catching up in school. It also helps

that they are finally recognizing his dyslexia. I was screaming

dyslexia for years but nobody would listen until he got a teacher

whose daughter is dyslexic.

I

> will pray that you're not being taken advantage of and that you

find

> some peace and any solutions there may be to your and your son's

issues.

I have run across one or two who would have taken advantage if I had

not known better. But Dr. Cave is not in the business of taking

advantage of people in need.

> If you find something that makes you feel better, physically or

> emotionally, I think that's wonderful. Believe whatever works for

you

> - there's quite a lot to be said for the power of positive thought.

> Just be careful, as some of the " alternative " treatments being

touted

> out there move beyond being benign and can cause damage.

I don't know of anyone ever being harmed by the protocol we use,

only helped. Thank you for your concern.

> Please understand that my post was not a personal attack on you. I

> simply dislike seeing snake-oil sold to people who have no other

> options. I do hope for the best for you and your son. - Nannersone

I am in agreement with you on that. If I did not personally know of

people who have been helped by what we are doing, I would not be

doing it.

[Guest guest]

>

> le - Where is all that heavy metal coming from? It's not

normal

> for anyone to have it in their bodies - it ~doesn't~ form

naturally in

> the body. The way heavy metals get into the body are via ingestion

or

> inhalation. Some also might be absorbed directly through the skin -

I

> think mercury can be pretty dangerous that way, from touching

> contaminated soil or surfaces.

For starters, my mother was dx'd with lead poisoning when she was 18

months old. It was not all chelated out of her. She has all kinds

of health consequences, including dementia at 57 years old. Dr.

Cave said metals can be passed from mother to child and my mother

probably passed it to me and I passed it to my son. That may be

where part of Nick's lead came from. When I was 6 months pregnant,

I had 3 mercury fillings put in my mouth. Then Nick had all of his

vaccinations in the 90's, when they were full of thimerisol. The

IgE allergy testing (tine test) injected more thimerisol into him.

I am not sure if we live near a coal burning power plant but when we

move, I can assure you we won't!

> Has your home been fumigated in recent years? Some of the termite

and

> roach fumigants used to use mercury and/or arsnic compounds, I

believe

> (not sure about that). Could it still be lurking in the wood and

> seeping back into your living quarters?

I have owned my home for 11 years and have NEVER had it fumigated.

We use electronic bug repellers and Combat. My cleaning products

are all nontoxic.

Are you near any chemical

> plants or electrical power plants that burn petrochemicals or coal?

I don't know.

> Are you in old housing that may have lead paint,

Never been lead paint, I painted the house myself.

or with lead water

> pipes?

No lead pipes. I checked all of that long ago.

If the pipes could be the problem, you need to be on bottled

> water.

We only drink bottled/distilled water.

If the paint is the problem, are you able to move to somewhere

> safer? If not, can you slap a good coat of latex sealant paint down

> over the leaded paint? Have you had your yard soil (if you have a

> yard) tested for heavy metal/pesticide toxicity?

Have not done that.

People used to be

> really awful about just dumping pesticides on their yards without

> thinking of the long-term impacts on the soil. If you are in the

USA,

> your county extension agent should be able to refer you to a lab,

or

> be able to take the sample him/herself for you.

That's a good idea.

> I do know about yeast issues. I have a good friend who had serious

> problems with yeast infections in places one normally does not have

> them (her lungs). It was a particularly nasty, rare strain of

yeast,

> not a variety that they see very often. She was mis-diagnosed for

> years, because the doctors were not accustomed to dealing with it

and

> did not run the appropriate tests to detect it. They told her she

had

> everything from asthma to COPD. Once the infection was cleared up

> (which took years), her health improved tremendously. Until then,

she

> had dark circles under her eyes, problems concentrating, fits of

> temper that came out of nowhere, extreme fatigue, and a host of

minor

> problems.

>

> Unfortunately, yeast really doesn't appear to have much to do with

> Aspergers or Autism as far as I am aware,

I have read and been told that it does. And it certainly affects my

son's behavior, attention span and health.

although the byproducts it

> creates can certainly make you sick as a dog. I guess, if a

clinician

> were in a hurry, they might mistake the symptoms caused by the

yeast

> byproducts to be indicative of something on the Autism spectrum. I

> wonder if you were both/either misdiagnosed? - Nannersone

I guess if you were to admit that heavy metal toxicity, yeast

overgrowth and mineral deficiency cause or can cause autism,

asperger's, etc., you could say we were misdiagnosed. But then

you'd have to admit that is a possibility for others.

[Guest guest]

>> It would not matter if I knew ten people who were saying the same

>> as you. That is not proof. That is what is called " anecdotal

>> evidence, " and there is a reason that the term " anecdotal

>> evidence " is connotated negatively as it is.

>

> Call it what you want

was calling it what it is: anecdotal evidence, and as

says, anecdotal evidence is not proof.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence

> He was 8 years old when we started biomedical. He had a SEVERE

> speach delay. Within a week and a half of beginning an anti-yeast

> protocol and MB 12 injections, his speach became understandable for

> the first time in his life.

Did you know that over 90% of all cancer patients in the United

States contracted cancer after having spent years wearing shoes?

>>> If my son had not been exposed to mercury, he would not have

>>> mercury coming out in his urine when given DMSA.

>

>> Who performed the test? Was it the guy selling you the

>> chelation? I wouldn't trust the results of any so-called test

>> under those circumstances.

>

> Dr. Cave is a woman. No, she did not perform the tests. The Mayo

> Clinic performed some, Doctor's Data performed others. Both are

> labs independent of Dr. Cave's office, not even in the same state.

> Are

> those labs acceptable? Or do you still think the tests were fixed.

never said the tests were fixed. He was only asking for your

source.

>> Mercury is all over the place. It exists in large amounts in the

>> coal which is burned to make our electricity, which puts it into

>> the air we breathe. It is in the soil. It is in the oceans in

>> large amounts, and thus is in every animal that comes from the

>> sea, like fish. Are you aware that one regular sized can of

>> albacore tuna contains more mercury than the highest total of

>> mercury that infants ever received?

>

> You are right, mercury is all over the place. We do not eat tuna.

You didn't address 's point.

>> Further, DMSA cannot cross the blood-brain barrier. Since autism

>> takes place in the brain, it would be impossible for DMSA to fix

>> it. And even if it could get through the blood-brain barrier, the

>> DMSA would only free up the bound mercury-- NOT undo the damage

>> the mercury had already done.

>

> The problem with that is that heavy metal toxicity causes

> nutritional deficiencies.

was saying: 1) that mercury does not cause autism, and 2) even

if it did, chelation could not undo the autism. He wasn't saying

that mercury is harmless. (Why do so many people make that strange

leap of " logic " whenever we say that mercury does not cause autism?)

> Scientific facts are constantly being disproved.

The difference is that the whole " mercury causes autism " thing has

never been a scientific fact in the first place. It was, at most, a

pretty hypothetical connection -- and the idea of " curing " autism

thru chelation has never even made it that far.

> My microbiology professor said that if you get enough yeast in your

> blood, it will kill you. Is he a quack? He teaches microbiology

> at a major university.

Just because he's educated doesn't mean he's right. I went to

college, too -- and I also work in an organization with a lot of

PhDs. I constantly hear PhDs say things that are patently

incorrect. Hell, one time when I had the flu, an MD prescribed an

antibiotic for me. The flu is caused by a virus. Anyone with a

decent high school education can tell you that antibiotics have no

effect on viruses.

--Parrish

[Guest guest]

> That's just stupid. I don't presume to know everything. You

> people who don't know anyone who has done biomedical and gotten

> better think you know everything about this. You are just stuck in

> your ways of thinking. If my son had not been exposed to mercury,

> he would not have mercury coming out in his urine when given DMSA.

> If he didn't have a viral load, it would not be reflected in his

> blood. Yes, he is getting better than the controls would. He

> immediately stopped having seizures, etc. IgG food allergies are

> important. He has 19 of them. I couldn't get any of the doctors

> who seem to think like you to test him for them. If they had, that

> would mean they prescribed to the same way of think as you. When

> we were able to finally afford to see a DAN! doctor, he was tested

> for all of this. Keeping him away from the foods he has allergies

> to makes a BIG difference. Think what you will. I am not the one

> presuming to know everything, just the truth about my son's

> health status. You could ask anyone who knew us before and after

> we began biomedical treatment. They will tell you the same things,

> that it HAS made a difference.

I " tested " as having a ton of food allergies.

I " tested " as having several systemic fungal infections.

I " tested " as... a whole lot of things, the same sort of things you're

talking about.

A lot of those " tests " weren't real. The two DAN! doctors I saw were

quacks. One of them wanted to put me on Secretin after the first

visit just because he'd heard " some autistic children make eye contact

after being on Secretin " .

I did most of the expected treatments, and they made me very ill as

well as malnourished, this was over a long period of time.

The DAN! doctors tried to tell my parents that the reason I was

getting so sick was " You have to get sick to get well. " It turned out

that the antifungals I was being put on were pretty heavy-duty and

causing a lot of side-effects. It turned out that most of the dietary

modifcations they wanted were totally unnecessary and unproven to work

even if I'd had what they claimed I had. It turned out the blood

tests were either flat-out bogus or the doctors were taking a normal

result and playing it up to make it sound abnormal.

When I stopped the treatments, I felt *better*. *Way* better.

The same doctors overlooked -- *noted the symptoms of* and then

overlooked -- real medical problems that were symptomatic when I met

them. Four of which required dietary modifications they *had not*

recommended (because they can't be neatly measured on tests). One of

which required surgery. Five of which required medication. One of

which would have eventually been lethal if it hadn't been caught and

treated by conventional means (treatment which was delayed in part by

the efforts of DAN! doctors).

If you go entirely by anecdotes, then add that one to your files. I

have plenty of health problems, and none of them happen to be what the

DAN! doctors pretended (possibly fooling themselves, possibly just

fooling my parents, I don't know which) they were. Moreover, even

when it was something similar in appearance, the foods I was required

by them to eliminate bear little resemblance to the foods I've had to

reduce or eliminate in real life.

[Guest guest]

> I " tested " as having a ton of food allergies.

My son really does have food allergies. It is very obvious if he

eats something he isn't supposed to eat.

> I " tested " as having several systemic fungal infections.

After Nick takes antifungal meds, his symptoms related to the yeast

overgrowth clear up. The same goes for me.

> I " tested " as... a whole lot of things, the same sort of things

you're

> talking about.

>

> A lot of those " tests " weren't real. The two DAN! doctors I saw

were

> quacks. One of them wanted to put me on Secretin after the first

> visit just because he'd heard " some autistic children make eye

contact

> after being on Secretin " .

Secretin also sounds unnecessary to me, as you describe it there.

My son tried the secretin infusions and this did not help him. I do

know someone it did help though.

> I did most of the expected treatments, and they made me very ill as

> well as malnourished, this was over a long period of time.

We have not had this problem. Our doctor is very good. Nick had

nutritional deficiencies prior to seeing her and she is treating him

for those. I am guessing the doctors you saw must not have known

much about what they were doing. My son has not become ill with any

treatment Dr. Cave has prescribed. He has only gotten well. She

really does know what she is doing.

> The DAN! doctors tried to tell my parents that the reason I was

> getting so sick was " You have to get sick to get well. " It turned

out

> that the antifungals I was being put on were pretty heavy-duty and

> causing a lot of side-effects.

If the proper bloodwork isn't done, to monitor liver function and

things like that, with certain meds, including antifungal, you can

become very ill, maybe even die. Once again, I agree with you, your

doctors do seem like quacks and I am very sorry you had to go

through that whole experience. I have heard of others having bad

experiences with DAN doctors but I have NEVER heard anything bad

about Dr. Cave from anyone she has treated. And she has done

nothing but good for us.

It turned out that most of the dietary

> modifcations they wanted were totally unnecessary and unproven to

work

> even if I'd had what they claimed I had. It turned out the blood

> tests were either flat-out bogus or the doctors were taking a

normal

> result and playing it up to make it sound abnormal.

>

> When I stopped the treatments, I felt *better*. *Way* better.

>

> The same doctors overlooked -- *noted the symptoms of* and then

> overlooked -- real medical problems that were symptomatic when I

met

> them. Four of which required dietary modifications they *had not*

> recommended (because they can't be neatly measured on tests). One

of

> which required surgery. Five of which required medication. One of

> which would have eventually been lethal if it hadn't been caught

and

> treated by conventional means (treatment which was delayed in part

by

> the efforts of DAN! doctors).

>

> If you go entirely by anecdotes, then add that one to your files.

I

> have plenty of health problems, and none of them happen to be what

the

> DAN! doctors pretended (possibly fooling themselves, possibly just

> fooling my parents, I don't know which) they were. Moreover, even

> when it was something similar in appearance, the foods I was

required

> by them to eliminate bear little resemblance to the foods I've had

to

> reduce or eliminate in real life.

>

>

I am very sorry for your terrible experience. Yes, there are bad

DAN doctors. Dr. Cave is the only one I have experience with and

she is REALLY a good doctor. Everything she has done for us has

helped and all of the tests were useful. I am glad we found her

because she DOES know what she is doing, unlike the doctors you saw.