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It bothers me a lot that some people like to find disabilites a rather

good thing. U know what, I do want to be cured as autism once and for

all because I don't like to be teased,bullied or ignored by other

people. It would be nice actually work a good job for once in my life

and actually make some friends.I also would like to date a pretty girl

instead of bullied by them. Most of all, to be accepted by my family as

a normal ,mature adult OK? One thing I do know is being a disabled

american absolulety sux shit and U people know it.I hate my disabilty.I

want to be a normal mature adult. So YES to curation and Yes to life!!!

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bestbuy wrote:

>...I hate my disabilty.I

>want to be a normal mature adult. So YES to curation and Yes to life!!!

You want to be like the normal people who teased, bullied, and

ignored you? Not a very splendid ambition.

Jane

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> You want to be like the normal people who teased, bullied, and

> ignored you? Not a very splendid ambition.

This has got to be one of the best anti-curebie quotes I've ever

heard. Brava!

--Parrish

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bestbuy1002003 wrote:

> It bothers me a lot that some people like to find disabilites a rather

> good thing. U know what, I do want to be cured as autism once and for

> all because I don't like to be teased,bullied or ignored by other

> people. It would be nice actually work a good job for once in my life

> and actually make some friends.I also would like to date a pretty girl

> instead of bullied by them. Most of all, to be accepted by my family as

> a normal ,mature adult OK? One thing I do know is being a disabled

> american absolulety sux shit and U people know it.I hate my disabilty.I

> want to be a normal mature adult. So YES to curation and Yes to life!!!

You're either a troll or you have a serious case of self-hate.

If the former, go away. If the latter, I hope we can show you why you

think these damaging things about yourself, and eventually change your mind.

Griff

--

.... Breakdown and breakthrough are the same process, seen from different

angles.

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I say this to you:

If you project an attitude that you accept yourself, and screw those who

don't accept you-they aren't worth it anyway...then that is picked up on,

and may even draw the right kinds of people, opportunities, and life

situations to you.

I think most people here have 'felt' that they are discriminated against and

that does suck. I figure I can walloa in it and disgust my own self with my

own dismal company, or i can be proactive, that is to say do away with 'all

or nothing' thinking. Example-All pretty girls are bad, My " disability " is

the cause of all my woes, If I got cured I'd be suddenly 'normal' and immune

to life's problems.

Those aren't true. I've had crying fits and self destructive behavior as a

result of what you speak of...I know I can empathize. Its a conscious choice

to accept and even love oneself.

The way that you are, and I am IS our normal. And that's because we really

are fine the way we are. Don't allow anyone to tell you different.Good luck

dealing with all these thoughts/feelings/ideas.

>

> It bothers me a lot that some people like to find disabilites a rather

> good thing. U know what, I do want to be cured as autism once and for

> all because I don't like to be teased,bullied or ignored by other

> people. It would be nice actually work a good job for once in my life

> and actually make some friends.I also would like to date a pretty girl

> instead of bullied by them. Most of all, to be accepted by my family as

> a normal ,mature adult OK? One thing I do know is being a disabled

> american absolulety sux shit and U people know it.I hate my disabilty.I

> want to be a normal mature adult. So YES to curation and Yes to life!!!

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

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Yes!

I like me. I like that I'm different. I don't want to be a sheep for

the sake of fitting in. I'm going to keep on bein' me regardless, no

matter what anyone says. The last thing I want is to be like everybody

else. I've been bullied, picked on, teased, ignored... You have to be

strong. And you have to be YOU. The people who enjoy making you feel

uncomfortable aren't worth a damn.

I understand the job situation...as in every thing else...DON'T give up.

a

> Agreed on all counts. I used to have the " Oh woe is me for having a

> disability " attitude several years ago, which ended up getting me

> nowhere, and fast. It wasn't until someone told me the following that

> I realized what I could be capable of:

>   

>   " You can view this as one of two things, and I have to warn you,

> there is no middle ground on it. You either pick one or the other. The

> first view is to see it as the world chooses to. As a disability. It

> means you're less capable than others, that you're somehow not good

> enough to be considered normal by the standards of society. The second

> view is to to use what you have in all its talents and see the world

> in a way no one else can, as an individual. What you have can be a

> rare gift. It is something that allowed angelo, Newton, and

> Einstein to all be the people they were, not because they wanted to be

> like everyone else, but because they just wanted to be themselves, and

> accepted what they had as a gift.

>   

>   When someone asks you whether or not you're normal, reply with a

> question of your own. Normal compared to what? "

>

> " Adam (\ " Griff\ " ) Sanford " wrote:

>   bestbuy1002003 wrote:

> > It bothers me a lot that some people like to find disabilites a

> rather

> > good thing. U know what, I do want to be cured as autism once and

> for

> > all because I don't like to be teased,bullied or ignored by other

> > people. It would be nice actually work a good job for once in my

> life

> > and actually make some friends.I also would like to date a pretty

> girl

> > instead of bullied by them. Most of all, to be accepted by my

> family as

> > a normal ,mature adult OK? One thing I do know is being a disabled

> > american absolulety sux shit and U people know it.I hate my

> disabilty.I

> > want to be a normal mature adult. So YES to curation and Yes to

> life!!!

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> It bothers me a lot that some people like to find disabilites a rather

> good thing. U know what, I do want to be cured as autism once and for

> all because I don't like to be teased,bullied or ignored by other

> people. It would be nice actually work a good job for once in my life

> and actually make some friends.I also would like to date a pretty girl

> instead of bullied by them. Most of all, to be accepted by my family

> as a normal ,mature adult OK? One thing I do know is being a disabled

> american absolulety sux shit and U people know it.I hate my

> disabilty.I want to be a normal mature adult. So YES to curation and

> Yes to life!!!

If you did accept a cure, you would probably be in for a nasty shock.

You would probably still be just as unhappy if not more so.

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>

> > It bothers me a lot that some people like to find disabilites a

rather

> > good thing. U know what, I do want to be cured as autism once and

for

> > all because I don't like to be teased,bullied or ignored by other

> > people. It would be nice actually work a good job for once in my

life

> > and actually make some friends.I also would like to date a pretty

girl

> > instead of bullied by them. Most of all, to be accepted by my

family

> > as a normal ,mature adult OK? One thing I do know is being a

disabled

> > american absolulety sux shit and U people know it.I hate my

> > disabilty.I want to be a normal mature adult. So YES to curation

and

> > Yes to life!!!

>

> If you did accept a cure, you would probably be in for a nasty

shock.

>

> You would probably still be just as unhappy if not more so.

>

>

>

I have had decent jobs, married a pretty woman and am accepted

without being cured. I think the thing this person needs to be cured

of his is self-hatred. The autism is not the problem.

Jerry Newport

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--- Bourquin wrote:

> I, for one, am not a disabled american... Nor am I a

> disabled Australian (I

> am Australian).

> I don't see Autism, at least the High Functioning

> sort, as a Disability.

> Sure there are difficulties in life, not being able

> to function " properly "

> in society, not understanding many things other

> people do... But most of our

> troubles come from other people not understanding

> us...

> I've been really lucky in my life, I've made several

> friends, and even have

> a girlfriend whom I love dearly. And my family can

> be pretty understanding.

> It's when people chose not to understand, and

> instead expect you to change

> to their ways that life can begin to suck...

> I don't want to be cured, I am Autistic. Cure the

> autism, and I won't be who

> I am now... I think many would agree with me on that

> point.

>

> - GalileoAce

>

> On 1/31/06, bestbuy1002003

> wrote:

> >

> > It bothers me a lot that some people like to find

> disabilites a rather

> > good thing. U know what, I do want to be cured as

> autism once and for

> > all because I don't like to be teased,bullied or

> ignored by other

> > people. It would be nice actually work a good job

> for once in my life

> > and actually make some friends.I also would like

> to date a pretty girl

> > instead of bullied by them. Most of all, to be

> accepted by my family as

> > a normal ,mature adult OK? One thing I do know is

> being a disabled

> > american absolulety sux shit and U people know

> it.I hate my disabilty.I

> > want to be a normal mature adult. So YES to

> curation and Yes to life!!!

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

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Bourquie wrote:

>> Not everyone sees Autism as a part of who they are... Whether or

not that view point is actually correct or not..or even if

the " Autism is me " viewpoint is correct, remains to be seen. <<

In my mind (beyond a core existence that could be characterized as a

spirit or soul), my " personality " is me. Of course, my personality

has changed over the years -- for better and for worse. I'm not the

same person I was as a child or as a young adult.

How much our personalities are formed by biology and how much by

environment is an unanswerable question. But I know for sure that

many of my personality traits are directly attributable to my

autism. And I'm happy with that.

I won't go into the positive aspects of autism. We all know what

they are -- or we may have various ideas what they are. But the

personality traits I see as part of my autism are the very traits

I've valued most throughout life.

I don't want my opinions and life choices to be controlled by a

neurotypical need for social connection. I want to be accepted (or

left alone) as I am.

I don't want to be cured.

(By the way, I think bestbuy1002003 is a troll. He sent me the same

message privately several months ago. When I asked who he was, he

didn't respond.)

- Debra

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Troll or not, i think he sparked an interesting discussion here. I

don't very often reply to this list, but i wanted to for this topic...

> Bourquie wrote:

> >> Not everyone sees Autism as a part of who they are... Whether or

> not that view point is actually correct or not..or even if

> the " Autism is me " viewpoint is correct, remains to be seen. <<

>

>

> In my mind (beyond a core existence that could be characterized as a

> spirit or soul), my " personality " is me. Of course, my personality

> has changed over the years -- for better and for worse. I'm not the

> same person I was as a child or as a young adult.

>

> How much our personalities are formed by biology and how much by

> environment is an unanswerable question. But I know for sure that

> many of my personality traits are directly attributable to my

> autism. And I'm happy with that.

>

> I won't go into the positive aspects of autism. We all know what

> they are -- or we may have various ideas what they are. But the

> personality traits I see as part of my autism are the very traits

> I've valued most throughout life.

>

> I don't want my opinions and life choices to be controlled by a

> neurotypical need for social connection. I want to be accepted (or

> left alone) as I am.

>

> I don't want to be cured.

>

> (By the way, I think bestbuy1002003 is a troll. He sent me the same

> message privately several months ago. When I asked who he was, he

> didn't respond.)

>

> - Debra

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

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debra wrote:

>In my mind (beyond a core existence that could be characterized as a

>spirit or soul), my " personality " is me. Of course, my personality

>has changed over the years -- for better and for worse. I'm not the

>same person I was as a child or as a young adult.

Interesting. " Not the same, " true. But " not the same person " ? I

wonder. I feel like the same person I've always been. My knowledge

and experience have changed a lot. But I feel changed by that, not

totally transformed into a different person.

Jane

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At 01:57 PM 2/4/2006, Bourquin wrote:

>Troll or not, i think he sparked an interesting discussion here. I

>don't very often reply to this list, but i wanted to for this topic...

I have been following the discussion with interest as well.

I have a notion that I would love to hear your opinions on. I've been

running into this with some of the " under the radar " Aspies I have met as

well. It seems to me that the people who are most unhappy with being

autistic or the thought of being autistic are the ones who are trying the

hardest to appear " normal " .

When the person gets to the point that they realize that normal doesn't

really exist and that for them, being autistic is normal, and they stop

constantly pushing themselves and feeling guilty for what they are not, it

seems that they do a lot better.

That has definitely been the case for me. I got a formal diagnosis, and

what a load of misery it was off me. I was no longer guilty of a defective

character, I simply had a readily identifiable constellation of traits that

could be worked with in such a way that, just like any " normal " person, I

could have the kind of life I wanted to have. I think when I was younger, I

would have wanted desperately to be " cured " , but at 43, having had a lot

more opportunity to observe people and the things they do, I wouldn't want

that at all.

It seems to be almost a form of what's often called " magical thinking " , in

that the person seizes on the idea that " if only I wasn't

Aspie/Autistic/different I would be happy. "

Of course, in a younger person, they don't have the life experience to have

seen lots of perfectly " normal " people who are equally unhappy over their

life, their weight, their looks, their marriage choices, their jobs... lots

of people are unhappy and fall prey to that same kind of thinking. And for

an autistic person thinking this way, just as with a " normal " person, the

solution is to give up the idea that there is one magical thing that will

make everything okay and start from where you are to make things better for

yourself in the ways that work with who you are instead of against.

Has anyone else found this to be true?

Z

http://zola.livejournal.com/

" What are we going to do tonight, Brain? "

" The same thing we do every night, Pinky. We're going to try to take over

the world!! " ---Pinky and the Brain

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Zola wrote:

>It seems to be almost a form of what's often called " magical thinking " , in

>that the person seizes on the idea that " if only I wasn't

>Aspie/Autistic/different I would be happy. "

>Of course, in a younger person, they don't have the life experience to have

>seen lots of perfectly " normal " people who are equally unhappy over their

>life, their weight, their looks, their marriage choices, their jobs...

Yes. I think my oldest sister's first marriage was a case of " magical

thinking. " She thought being married would make her " a grown up " and

that many problems would disappear automatically as a result. Of

course, that wasn't true. (It was a mess.)

I also agree that fixating on one element that supposedly will bring

happiness is pretty well guaranteed to lock a person into

unhappiness. For instance, I've met young autie men who want a girl

friend more than anything in the world. But being focused on wanting

a girl friend makes them unable to interact with young women (even

most auties) in a way that would bring about the kind of

friendship/relationship they want. Looking for a " solution " (for a

unit to plug into one's life, so to speak) can prevent a person from

perceiving what's already there to be worked with. And a determined

focus on a search for a " solution " is likely to make a person boring

for others. Interesting people are those who are interested (in

whatever). A person so has " narrow interests " (according to

non-autistics' standards) is much more likely to be able find someone

else who shares those interests if s/he is engaged in/with those

interests (rather than engaged in a tunnel-eyed search for " the

solution " or " the cure " ).

Jane

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Jane wrote:

>> Interesting. " Not the same, " true. But " not the same person " ? I

wonder. I feel like the same person I've always been. My knowledge

and experience have changed a lot. But I feel changed by that, not

totally transformed into a different person. <<

I don't know if it's just a phase I'm going through, but lately I

feel detached from the person I used to be.

On a more general note, I feel there are experiences, physical and

emotional, that permanently change a person. Sometimes that change

is considered positive -- maturation or progress. But it can also

be negative.

Back to the personal, that change can take away the things you love

about a person -- the reason my marriage ended.

Changing the topic somehwat:

Change has always been an issue in my life. (I can give you a whole

list of songs about change.) I become very involved in a cause or

an activity (special interest?) and then I change (move to another

special interest?). That generally means leaving people behind.

Only as I've gotten older have I found a few friends who can accept

and appreciate the variety in my life.

- Debra

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> I have a notion that I would love to hear your opinions on. I've

> been running into this with some of the " under the radar " Aspies I

> have met as well. It seems to me that the people who are most

> unhappy with being autistic or the thought of being autistic are

> the ones who are trying the hardest to appear " normal " .

I have noticed that some of the ones who are most unhappy with

autistic, are also those who *have* the ability to pass, somewhat, but

not quite. Because it seems to them like just a minor change (even

though it would have to be a pretty fundamental one).

(Last time I said this, someone said " But I can pass and I'm happy

being autistic. " To be clear, this isn't universal, just a tendency

I've noticed.)

> It seems to be almost a form of what's often called " magical

> thinking " , in that the person seizes on the idea that " if only I

> wasn't Aspie/Autistic/different I would be happy. "

> Of course, in a younger person, they don't have the life experience

> to have seen lots of perfectly " normal " people who are equally

> unhappy over their life, their weight, their looks, their marriage

> choices, their jobs... lots of people are unhappy and fall prey to

> that same kind of thinking. And for an autistic person thinking

> this way, just as with a " normal " person, the solution is to give

> up the idea that there is one magical thing that will make

> everything okay and start from where you are to make things better

> for yourself in the ways that work with who you are instead of

> against.

> Has anyone else found this to be true?

Yes.

I was just talking about it to a friend the other day.

We were discussing how nearly everyone has things they want to do, and

yet are not very good at. Lots of people with no talent at basketball

wish they were basketball stars. Etc.

Most people also come to some realization at some point in their life

that they're not going to be everything they've ever wanted to be.

(Some also come to the realization that who they thought they wanted

to be was shaped by a lot of widespread prejudices about who is

valuable, or a desire to belong or be looked up to, or other things

like that.)

And yet, if you are disabled, the dream you are supposed to have, is

to be as like the non-disabled " ideal " as possible, and to continually

strive against your nature to become something you are not, while

ignoring the value in who you are, as you are, already.

Growth, for us, is not considered to be the *ways in which we can

actually grow*, but it's considered to be " approximate normalcy at all

costs " . If we rebel against this ideal, we are said to be rebelling

against growing and changing as people, even if this ideal actually

stunts our natural form of growth.

There's nothing wrong with trying things you're not good at, of

course. I've got a weird obsession with trying to learn languages,

and I'm horrible at them. But I'm not staking my worth as a person on

my ability to learn languages (and it's a good thing, too).

But it seems like if I were following the " strive towards normal "

model of most people's heads about disability, I would be expected to

dedicate all my spare time and energy to learning foreign languages,

even if it got nowhere, burned me out, and took away from my other

interests.

And I bet it would be considered " only natural " for me to do that,

when in a non-disabled person doing the equivalent thing would

probably be considered irresponsible.

The desire for a cure seems to stem from the same general things that

most people are dissatisfied with, only if you're autistic, or

otherwise disabled, you can pin all your dissatisfaction on the

attributes of yourself that society views as horrible anyway. (Sort

of like some women believe they'll only be " confident " with bigger

breasts, when if they had big breasts already, they'd have probably

found something else.)

But the message that *all* disabled people get, as far as I can tell,

is that even if we are not ever going to be 'normal', we should be

brought as close to 'normalcy' as possible, and if we reject this

goal, we are rejecting life and growth and a number of other things.

That message is a lie, but it's what we're all told in one way or another.

When I was housebound in the past due to pain and motor/stamina

problems, I was told that it was better to be housebound and walking,

than get out of the house, and have a wheelchair. I opted for the

wheelchair and have never regretted it. The " normalcy brigade "

certainly put up a fight against it, though, even though I was well

past the point of needing it. Because it doesn't look normal.

There was once a drug someone prescribed, for a condition I wasn't

sure I had, and the drug had a number of heart-related side effects

that I was sure could cause problems for me. I told my doctor that I

did not think the potential risks were worth the potential benefits.

My doctor wrote a long letter to my mother, about how I was throwing

my life away, how all my friends would leave me, how I needed to fight

against my disability (again, one I don't think I actually *had*) and

not " give in " to it, how I needed my family to encourage me to take

this drug because it was clear that I was not thinking rationally and

would only cause eternal misery for myself.

The predicted eternal misery has not arrived, but I'm sure if I

subscribed to his view of the world, it would be here, because I would

be, as I was when my mother had more control over my life, trying

treatment after treatment, getting sick from all the treatments, and

not being helped enough by most of them for it to be worth it. And

constantly striving to be something I was not, which would make anyone

miserable.

I discovered that, in regards to autism, too, I simply don't have the

energy to try to be something I'm not. I could work very hard at

doing exactly one " normal " task, and that would be all I could do.

And some people would prefer that life for me, but I don't. I also

know that some things are so far beyond my capabilities that

attempting them would be ludicrous and a waste of time.

Which, in a non-disabled person, would be considered maturity, but in

a disabled person, is considered stagnation. The idea that I have

other ways in which I grow, and other reasons for finding myself and

other people of value, is not considered in all this. I'm just told

that I'm choosing pain and misery. If that's true, I wonder why pain

and misery have gotten so much less since deciding this, and real

growth has happened that was not possible before.

I hope that this rambling on this topic has made sense. There is a

main point, I just don't know how to say it shortly.

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> >> Interesting. " Not the same, " true. But " not the same person " ? I

> wonder. I feel like the same person I've always been. My knowledge

> and experience have changed a lot. But I feel changed by that, not

> totally transformed into a different person. <<

> I don't know if it's just a phase I'm going through, but lately I

> feel detached from the person I used to be.

> On a more general note, I feel there are experiences, physical and

> emotional, that permanently change a person. Sometimes that change

> is considered positive -- maturation or progress. But it can also

> be negative.

I've been thinking lately about adolescence. I never really knew what

it *was* before, like what happened to the brain during that period.

I was talking to a friend about this time in my life when a lot of

change happened, and she knew immediately from my description that it

must have been adolescence. She said that the child brain starts

turning into an adult brain and totally reconfiguring some things.

I had, for a long time, been unable to even think about the onset of

adolescence without re-experiencing some of the confusion involved,

and wondering if things really happened that happened around then. A

lot of it was that I did feel like a whole different person. My

friend said that the changes I experienced were more drastic than most

people experience (a web search on my part showed this is probably

true -- I saw a lot of " see a neurologist if... " about my kind of

changes), but that some amount of that kind of change is normal. (I

wasn't aware enough of other kids to see how they were changing.)

In my case, the change was so much that it felt like... like stepping

out your door and falling into the air. I had awareness and abilities

that I'd never had before. And at the same time, I had a lot of

things I had been able to do with a lot of effort, that were now

completely vanished, and trying to do them provoked shutdown,

meltdown, etc. I looked -- outwardly -- much more obviously autistic.

It was like I was handed a near-complete reconfiguration of my

abilities, the world was now even more unpredictable than it had been

before, and I really didn't know how to deal with it at all.

From the outside, it apparently looked like I went from a stereotype

of " somewhat high functioning " to a stereotype of " relatively low

functioning " overnight.

What I heard from professionals really didn't help matters, and this

is where I wish professionals knew more about autistic adolescence. I

was immediately sent to neurologists and psychiatrists and so forth

because of the drastic changes in my abilities and behavior. They

came to the conclusion that my brain might be degenerating in some

way. This needless to say scared the crap out of me.

They told me (or rather, said in front of me, since most of them

didn't talk to me directly) that I was " regressing, " which meant

" growing backwards, " and the images this conjured up for me were less

than pleasant. Their predictions for my future were pretty bleak too,

and heavily grounded in the attitude that certain abilities are the

only key to success or happiness.

There were also a lot of people who said that I was no longer the

person I was, and that the old person, the person I'd been, needed to

be brought back. They had this image in their imagination, of a more

neurotypical-like developmental timeline. They visualized the person

that they had thought I was, " progressing " along this timeline. They

visualized that person trapped behind the new person I was. They

visualized " freeing " that person. This taught me that my value as the

person I was *right then* was lower than dirt. They tried really hard

to get me to act like that other person, with only tiny amounts of

" success " before I started acting like myself again, and of course

acting like myself, they called backsliding.

They were so determined to pull an imaginary me out of a hole or

something, that they could not see me at all. When they looked at me

they just saw the trap that someone else -- a non-existent someone

else -- was in.

What I needed at that point, was to be guided through adolescence,

autistic-style. Most teenagers are guided through adolescence by

adults who understand their form of adolescence. If you're one of the

fairly large number of autistic teenagers who have the kind of

adolescence I did, instead of guidance, you get concerted attempts to

rescue a person who no longer exists if they ever did.

There was no need to terrify me, or undoubtedly the many other people

who experienced something similar, and yet that's what they did,

because they didn't understand the ways in which some of us change.

So it was uncharted territory and often regarded as the opposite of

growth, despite the fact that I was growing all along.

So I had a very rocky adolescence, and a real sense that I was now a

different person, because of the apparent total reconfiguration of

everything. I like the person I've become. I don't know if I can be

said to be a " whole different person " to the person I was before those

changes, but she's certainly alien to me. Of course, the person I was

before institutions is also alien to me.

But while it was a very scary process, and some elements of change are

inherently scary, I don't think it needed to be quite as scary as it

was. There was no preparation made for it, no explanations made

beyond the idea that my brain was mysteriously disintegrating, and no

real guidance from adults or anyone else who knew what was going on.

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wrote:

>There's nothing wrong with trying things you're not good at, of

>course. I've got a weird obsession with trying to learn languages,

>and I'm horrible at them. But I'm not staking my worth as a person on

>my ability to learn languages (and it's a good thing, too).

>

>But it seems like if I were following the " strive towards normal "

>model of most people's heads about disability, I would be expected to

>dedicate all my spare time and energy to learning foreign languages,

>even if it got nowhere, burned me out, and took away from my other

>interests.

>

>And I bet it would be considered " only natural " for me to do that,

>when in a non-disabled person doing the equivalent thing would

>probably be considered irresponsible.

Interesting. My obsession with trying to learn languages (even though

it's something I'm terrible at, and even though there probably are

things I could learn much more easily) is accepted as " good " by the

people where I work. But I think that's because they assume I am

learning the language in the same way and for the same reasons as

they would. And I'm not. For them, the reason to learn a language is

to be able to use it with other people. You learn a language and then

you go to the part of the world where that language is spoken and you

" get to know " people there (either just to do it, because getting to

know people is a major Good Thing in itself, or as part of some other

project, academic or humanitarian or even economic).

It doesn't occur to them that it is the learning itself (and the

language itself) that I want/enjoy. If I could learn " pure " (written)

Persian, I'd prefer to. We are getting increasing amounts of emphasis

on colloquial Persian (irritatingly different from written), and I'll

just have to put up with that, because there are no classes designed

from someone like me.

If I tried to follow the NT model in this instance (the model assumed

by those where I work), I'd feel like I was committing suicide.

Jane

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At 12:43 PM 2/5/2006, alfamanda wrote:

>(Last time I said this, someone said " But I can pass and I'm happy

>being autistic. " To be clear, this isn't universal, just a tendency

>I've noticed.)

I think that is absolutely true. I've met a number of ones who " pass " , and

it seems as though the more they try to tell themselves they are " normal " ,

the unhappier they are. I can " pass " too, if you don't look to closely, but

it wasn't until I acknowledged what was really going on that I started to

feel better.

I'm also noticing that I have more friends now, not less, since " coming

out " , because now that I am not trying to pretend I'm something I'm not, I

am giving people an opportunity to actually know me, and overall, most are

pretty accepting. It's very hard to put into words... I have graduated from

the negative " weird " to the more amusing " quirky " I guess is the best way

to say it.

What I mean is that I cope differently and I don't act the same as NT's. So

when I was trying to pretend I was an NT, something was " off " about my

behavior, and many people got a sense that I was dishonest or hiding

something. And that's true, that's exactly what I was doing.

So now, a person gets who I actually am. It doesn't bother me to tell

someone whose opinion I value about not making eye contact and stuff, so

instead of that lack being interpreted as " dishonesty " , now it's " just Zola

being Zola " because my differentness is no longer a threat, it's just

traits and no longer worthy of being concerned about.

A kind of simple parallel would be when people get to understand cultural

differences and become tolerant and relaxed. For example, there is an

Indian (from India) dude who runs a store I go to a lot. One night one of

his relatives was there working and he called me " Grandmother " .

Someone who knew nothing about it might have been horribly insulted, being

called " Grandmother " at 43, but from him, it was intended as a mark of

politeness and respect. Different culture, different forms of address. It

startled me, but then I just shrugged and took it as intended.

I think that many of the differences that used to seem to plague me are

precisely the same. If I'm not desperately trying to pretend they aren't

there, and another person sees that it's just something that arises from

the fact that I don't process the world the same, the differences get the

same reaction, a shrug and taking it for what is intended.

While it would be nice if NT's were more tolerant overall, I'm enough of a

pragmatist that to me, the value of taking a moment to explain to someone

yields so many benefits that I will do so readily. I've had the opportunity

to meet many different kinds of people, in fact, I kind of like people in

controlled doses, and if I take the time to educate them a little, that

might make all the difference in the world for another autistic person they

meet later because they will no longer have that kneejerk reaction of

rejecting differentness.

>Yes.

>

>I was just talking about it to a friend the other day.

>

>We were discussing how nearly everyone has things they want to do, and

>yet are not very good at. Lots of people with no talent at basketball

>wish they were basketball stars. Etc.

>

>Most people also come to some realization at some point in their life

>that they're not going to be everything they've ever wanted to be.

>(Some also come to the realization that who they thought they wanted

>to be was shaped by a lot of widespread prejudices about who is

>valuable, or a desire to belong or be looked up to, or other things

>like that.)

>

>And yet, if you are disabled, the dream you are supposed to have, is

>to be as like the non-disabled " ideal " as possible, and to continually

>strive against your nature to become something you are not, while

>ignoring the value in who you are, as you are, already.

>

>Growth, for us, is not considered to be the *ways in which we can

>actually grow*, but it's considered to be " approximate normalcy at all

>costs " . If we rebel against this ideal, we are said to be rebelling

>against growing and changing as people, even if this ideal actually

>stunts our natural form of growth.

>

>There's nothing wrong with trying things you're not good at, of

>course. I've got a weird obsession with trying to learn languages,

>and I'm horrible at them. But I'm not staking my worth as a person on

>my ability to learn languages (and it's a good thing, too).

>

>But it seems like if I were following the " strive towards normal "

>model of most people's heads about disability, I would be expected to

>dedicate all my spare time and energy to learning foreign languages,

>even if it got nowhere, burned me out, and took away from my other

>interests.

Part of it I think is honestly motivated in that the people around us want

us to have as many opportunities as anyone else does, but all too often it

becomes acting " normal " for " normal's " sake, and I agree, it's

counterproductive. And a complete waste because the person ends up so

fixated on this one thing that they don't have the time left to find out

what they are really good at and their talents and abilities remain

untapped, which is in my opinion a waste.

>And I bet it would be considered " only natural " for me to do that,

>when in a non-disabled person doing the equivalent thing would

>probably be considered irresponsible.

>

>The desire for a cure seems to stem from the same general things that

>most people are dissatisfied with, only if you're autistic, or

>otherwise disabled, you can pin all your dissatisfaction on the

>attributes of yourself that society views as horrible anyway. (Sort

>of like some women believe they'll only be " confident " with bigger

>breasts, when if they had big breasts already, they'd have probably

>found something else.)

>

>But the message that *all* disabled people get, as far as I can tell,

>is that even if we are not ever going to be 'normal', we should be

>brought as close to 'normalcy' as possible, and if we reject this

>goal, we are rejecting life and growth and a number of other things.

>

>That message is a lie, but it's what we're all told in one way or another.

Yes, and I agree with the pinning it all on one obvious thing. I came out

on a forum as Aspie, and I was horrified when one of the kids came to me

privately and identified himself to me as a fellow Aspie, and Goddess, he

*hated* that part of himself. He doesn't so much any more, I've worked

hard to present a more positive image to him as an Aspie who is successful

and independent on her own without lifting a finger to be normal at all,

but I shudder to think of the kind of crap he had to be getting from his

family to be so against his own self.

>When I was housebound in the past due to pain and motor/stamina

>problems, I was told that it was better to be housebound and walking,

>than get out of the house, and have a wheelchair. I opted for the

>wheelchair and have never regretted it. The " normalcy brigade "

>certainly put up a fight against it, though, even though I was well

>past the point of needing it. Because it doesn't look normal.

Exactly. No matter that maybe you'd want to get out of the house once in a

while... ugh, that kind of crap drives me nuts.

>There was once a drug someone prescribed, for a condition I wasn't

>sure I had, and the drug had a number of heart-related side effects

>that I was sure could cause problems for me. I told my doctor that I

>did not think the potential risks were worth the potential benefits.

>

>My doctor wrote a long letter to my mother, about how I was throwing

>my life away, how all my friends would leave me, how I needed to fight

>against my disability (again, one I don't think I actually *had*) and

>not " give in " to it, how I needed my family to encourage me to take

>this drug because it was clear that I was not thinking rationally and

>would only cause eternal misery for myself.

>

>The predicted eternal misery has not arrived, but I'm sure if I

>subscribed to his view of the world, it would be here, because I would

>be, as I was when my mother had more control over my life, trying

>treatment after treatment, getting sick from all the treatments, and

>not being helped enough by most of them for it to be worth it. And

>constantly striving to be something I was not, which would make anyone

>miserable.

>

>I discovered that, in regards to autism, too, I simply don't have the

>energy to try to be something I'm not. I could work very hard at

>doing exactly one " normal " task, and that would be all I could do.

>And some people would prefer that life for me, but I don't. I also

>know that some things are so far beyond my capabilities that

>attempting them would be ludicrous and a waste of time.

>

>Which, in a non-disabled person, would be considered maturity, but in

>a disabled person, is considered stagnation. The idea that I have

>other ways in which I grow, and other reasons for finding myself and

>other people of value, is not considered in all this. I'm just told

>that I'm choosing pain and misery. If that's true, I wonder why pain

>and misery have gotten so much less since deciding this, and real

>growth has happened that was not possible before.

Yes, YES, YES! That is *precisely* what has happened to me. When I

realized right around the time I was diagnosed that I am aurally

hypersensitive, I got a pair of noise-reduction headphones. At first it was

" You're just using them to go off into your own little world and IGNORE

everyone " , but as my stress levels dropped and I became a lot more relaxed

and pleasant to be around, suddenly it was " Oh, go ahead and put your

headphones on, I won't take offense! I know it's noisy in here. " They

figured out that I wasn't shutting out THEM, I was shutting out the NOISE.

And instead of having all this energy going into staying calm and not

biting people's heads off and fighting to concentrate on everything, my

productivity and ability to stay on task soared.

>I hope that this rambling on this topic has made sense. There is a

>main point, I just don't know how to say it shortly.

You're making perfect sense to me. A few years ago, there was a special on

the Thalidomide babies on TLC or the Discovery channel, and one of the

Thalidomide adults said something that stayed with me to this day. He was

talking about another girl he knew born without arms. He talked about how

she struggled with the prostheses, which weren't comfortable and weren't

nearly as effective as her using her feet, and how hundreds of thousands of

dollars had been spent in physical therapy and materials and training her

to use these not because they were more useful to her, but because they

made the people around her more comfortable to look at her.

When it becomes about everyone else's ease and convenience and comfort, we

have a problem.

Z

http://zola.livejournal.com/

" What are we going to do tonight, Brain? "

" The same thing we do every night, Pinky. We're going to try to take over

the world!! " ---Pinky and the Brain

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Zola wrote:

>...A few years ago, there was a special on

>the Thalidomide babies on TLC or the Discovery channel, and one of the

>Thalidomide adults said something that stayed with me to this day. He was

>talking about another girl he knew born without arms. He talked about how

>she struggled with the prostheses, which weren't comfortable and weren't

>nearly as effective as her using her feet, and how hundreds of thousands of

>dollars had been spent in physical therapy and materials and training her

>to use these not because they were more useful to her, but because they

>made the people around her more comfortable to look at her.

I used to know a woman who as a child was partially sighted. Her

father used to slap her hands if she felt for something (felt around

to find what she wanted to pick up), because it made her " look

blind. " Fact is, she was bound to end up blind if she lived long

enough (she did), and even with partial sight it often was easier to

feel-for rather than look-for. She turned out to be a very

independent person, free of all that ableist crap.

Jane

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> A few years ago, there was a special on the Thalidomide babies on

> TLC or the Discovery channel, and one of the Thalidomide adults

> said something that stayed with me to this day. He was

> talking about another girl he knew born without arms. He talked

> about how she struggled with the prostheses, which weren't

> comfortable and weren't nearly as effective as her using her feet,

> and how hundreds of thousands of dollars had been spent in physical

> therapy and materials and training her to use these not because

> they were more useful to her, but because they made the people

> around her more comfortable to look at her.

There's a performance artist named Duffy who was born without

arms because of Thalidomide. She does one relatively famous

performance in which she poses naked as the Venus de Milo and recites

some things. I have part of it on a tape (that has a lot of other

people's performances on it as well), along with interviews with her.

This is part of that:

***begin quote***

[this part was where she was doing the nude performance]

You have words to describe me that I find frightening. Everytime I

hear them they are whispered or screamed silently wordlessly from the

front to middle-page spreads of newspapers, only you dare to speak

them out loud. I look for them in my dictionary and I only find some.

The words you use to describe me are " congenital malformation. " In my

child's dictionary I learn that the first part means " born with " . How

many times have I answered that question? " Were you born like that?

Or did your mother take them dreadful tablets? " How come I always

felt ashamed when answering those big staring eyes and gaping mouths?

" Did you have an accident? Or did your mother take them dreadful

tablets? " With those big words those doctors used, they didn't have

any that fitted me properly. I felt even in the face of such

opposition that my body was the way it was supposed to be, that it was

right for me, as well as being whole, complete, and functional.

[then it cut to an interview with her]

I mean the first thing he said to me was that I must be very angry

towards the medical profession, and that they had a lot to answer for.

And I just felt that that was going to affect how he treated me. And

I had to deal with that and talk to him about it. And that then led

me back to how I felt I'd been objectified by the medical profession

in general, and I wasn't able to talk back. And particularly about

how they made decisions and comments about my future as if I wasn't

there. And speaking to a dictaphone and describing my future as if I

was incapable of comprehending.

[then it cut back to the nude performance]

Today I'm winning battles every day against my own monster, my inner

critic, who has internalized all my childhood oppressions. The

oppression of constantly trying to be fixed, to be changed, to be made

more whole, less visible, to hide and to be hidden.

***end quote***

There's other stuff she said on that video, a lot of other stuff,

that's just the part that seems relevant to this discussion. There's

another part where she describes being asked to draw a person symbol

for a class project, and her teachers freaked out because her person

symbol, like her, didn't have arms, and was using her feet for

gestures. They apparently thought that she shouldn't think about the

fact that she didn't have arms at all (?!?) because this would cause

her a nervous breakdown or something.

I think autistic people often forget that we're not the only ones who

experience this pressure to be cured, and to be made to function in

" normal " ways even when they don't work for us. I had been going to

bring up the forced prosthesis thing and I think I forgot. (I've

gotten yelled at, by the way, by medical professionals, for saying

that not everyone likes or functions better with prostheses. I

believe I was told that I was a " dangerous moral relativist " , that

medicine dictated that prostheses were *always* better, and that as

laypeople, people without assorted limbs shouldn't be consulted on the

matter because what would they know. Bizarre.)

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> Perhaps, Zola. But haven't you ever wanted to do something that you

> can't? Whether that be speaking, or an activity, or go out, but you

> can't? Like your body is in complete opposition to what you want to

> do.

Everyone at some point in their life wants to do things that they

can't do.

Sometimes, the main thing blocking them is that they haven't trained

their body or mind enough to do it. Some may decide not to do it

because they want to do other things, and some get athletic training,

or schooling, or practice, or some other thing, until their skills

improve enough to do it.

Sometimes, the main thing blocking them is that the world is set up so

that people like them (women, disabled people, people of color, etc)

aren't given the opportunities to do it, aren't expected to be able to

(even if in either the same or a modified form they'd be able to do

it), etc. Some will do other things, some will fight in one form or

another for their right to participate in these activities, whatever

they are, rather than be blocked out of them.

Interesting thing on that last one being that many people mistake the

way they are (female, disabled, etc) for an automatic reason that they

can't do whatever it is, because it's not set up for them, so they

start blaming being female or disabled or whatever even though that's

*not* really what's preventing them.

And sometimes, it's really something that's beyond their ability to

do, or beyond their ability to do well. This is as close to a

universal human experience as you're going to get. It's not limited

to autistic people or even to disabled people. Lots of people dream

of being basketball stars, as I said, and almost nobody actually *is*

one, and most people don't have the abilities for it.

But, as I also said, when you're a non-disabled person, dreaming of

being something you're not, at some point, even though you might

fantasize about it, you kind of realize that this is something you're

not going to be able to do. You might play basketball in your yard or

something, and watch games, and imagine yourself being Jordan,

but you don't mourn for the rest of your life that you're not a

basketball star, and you don't let it define a desire to be " cured " .

I play hammered dulcimer. I'm not too awful, but I'm not too great.

Once I saw Masely playing in the middle of Santa Cruz. I

stopped and watched him. Hammered dulcimers are played, normally, by

striking strings with two hammers, one in each hand. He had strapped

hammers to every finger and was playing one like that. I don't have

anywhere near the coordination to play that way, and I found him

amazing, and I wished I could do it like him, and I still sometimes

imagine myself doing it like him. But like most other hammered

dulcimer players, I can dream, but I'm never going to be a

Masely. I know this, and knowing this is part of what most people

call maturity and responsibility and so forth.

On the other hand, I used to be truly good at climbing trees. I could

just do it without thinking, and I loved to do it. Due to assorted

disabilities, it's no longer safe for me to climb trees. I still

enjoy watching them, but I can't physically climb them. I sometimes

imagine myself doing so, but it's not realistically going to happen in

the near future, maybe never, and I don't really mourn about it. I

know this, but I am pressured to view it as more of a loss than the

fact that I'm no Masely.

I have no particular desire for speech, and that on its own is viewed

as some kind of sacrilege. I have no desire to do something just

because it's what non-disabled people imagine I should want.

I fluctuate from relatively agile to completely immobile, from

relatively intellectually capable to lacking what non-autistic people

call intellect, from understanding some part of my surroundings very

well to lacking what non-autistic people call understanding, and at no

point in all this (when capable of " viewing myself " at all in the

sense that most people mean it) do I view myself and what I can't do

in terms of just needing to be fixed. (Yet, I am pressured to do

exactly that.)

Someone recently told me that she couldn't imagine one thing I

experience on a regular basis, because she couldn't imagine losing as

much of her life as she does when she experiences it sometimes. And I

thought about the amount of time I spend flat on my back, and I

thought about the idea of this as losing a chunk of my life, and I

just can't see it that way. I know that the world is conditioned to

see it this way, but it's not how you experience it once you get rid

of the conditioning. (There are things most people miss, too, by not

spending that amount of time flat on their back, although they don't

realize it.)

But as far as the non-disabled world is concerned, the blind are

supposed to dream of being able to see to almost the exclusion of all

else no matter how happy and accessible their lives are, the deaf are

supposed to dream of being able to hear to almost the exclusion of all

else no matter how happy and accessible their lives are, the mute are

supposed to dream of being able to talk to almost the exclusion of all

else no matter how happy and accessible their lives are... and the

same goes for people who can't walk, autistic people, lots of other

people.

We're not supposed to analyze " How much of this is inaccessibility and

a society structured to leave me out, how much of this is lack of

experience and training, how much of the rest of my life should I be

willing to give up for that experience and training, how much of this

is prejudice, and how much of this is just plain unrealistic? " We're

supposed instead to " never give up hope " for a cure -- something that,

if we were not disabled, would be considered immature and

irresponsible in the same sort of situation. Imagine a really bad

basketball player holding out against everything else in her life

waiting for assorted body and brain modifications to make her as

talented as Jordan (who also had to work hard to get where he

was, but if he wasn't that talented, all the hard work in the world

wouldn't have gotten him there).

So I fight inaccessibility when I see it, and I also recognize that

there are a lot of things I am never going to do, and there is no

difference to me between the ones that are because of what society

calls disability, and the ones that are because of what society calls

just being a regular person (although I certainly note that many

things I am said to be unable to do because of disability, are really

because of prejudice and inaccessibility, and in those case I fight

*those* things). The only times an apparent difference seems to creep

into my mind, I get rather suspicious because I know it's arbitrary.

So yes, I sometimes dream about being able to do things I can't do.

Nearly everyone on the planet does that. And I handle those dreams

the way nearly everyone on the planet does, rather than the

destructive way most people expect me to handle some of them.

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wrote:

>On the other hand, I used to be truly good at climbing trees. I could

>just do it without thinking, and I loved to do it. Due to assorted

>disabilities, it's no longer safe for me to climb trees. I still

>enjoy watching them, but I can't physically climb them.

My Persian class recently was introduced to a new form of

pluralizing. The text book says " Substantives denoting animate

beings, parts of the body that occur in pairs, and a few other nouns

(determined by idiomatic usage) form their plurals " in this way (by

adding a particular suffix). The examples that follow are: men,

Iranians, hands, trees.

:-)

Jane

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> That's not quite what I meant. It's very different from such stuff

> as wanting to be something you can't be, or wanting to be able to

> do stuff you are unable to do because you lack the skill. From what

> you say, you've experienced what I'm talking about. It's a

> division. You know what to do but while one part of you says yes,

> the other is saying no. It's not like wanting to be a basketball

> star and being unable to. It's not about comparing yourself. Like

> thinking something, thinking you should say it, but your mouth

> won't open. A self-division. Like knowing the place needs cleaning,

> but unable to start. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about.

> Wanting to be a basketballer but not having the sporting skill is

> quite different to that. Perhaps, since you've lived with those

> things for a long time, you're accustomed to those problems and it

> doesn't feel like a divide. But it's very recent for me, or the

> awareness of it, and in my mind, it feels very much like a

> division.

What, though, if the powerful people in the world consisted entirely

of people who were really good at basketball? (Stranger things have

happened.)

Then people would experience the desire to play basketball, vs. their

inability, as a horrible division like that.

The ideas inside of us that divide what is " divisions " like that

(wanting to and not being able to do something), and what is " just

normal and not even comparable " (wanting to be a basketball star and

lacking shooting skills), is determined largely by what we're used to.

If we're used to people (or at least powerful, useful, valued people)

being able to get words out with a certain amount of ease, then our

desire to be like them is just 'normal' and 'from nowhere' as far as

we can tell, even though it's not. (For that matter, not wanting to

be like them can be viewed by many as unhealthy, or even impossible.)

It's only that way because that's how the world we happen to live in

right now happens to work.

It would be the exact same way if basketball skills were what were so

prized (and, perhaps, speech was not prized at all, and we had people

who couldn't type or speak, but who were superb basketball players,

viewed as more valuable than people who could type well AND speak well

AND not play basketball to save their lives... and the world would be

set up for the needs of the non-speaking non-typing basketball

experts, but not for the speaking typing basketball dunces).

I know it sounds ludicrous, but that's only because we're immersed in

a world that does value us less, and doesn't elevate even basketball

stars to the level that speech/typing/etc are put at (our world would

also make it very difficult for a basketball expert without speech or

typing abilities to *become* a basketball star, even if they had the

talent -- and I've seen highly talented basketball players who lack

those other abilities, so it's not an out of nowhere example).

It can be really easy to assume that any of our thoughts and feelings

just arise naturally, inside of us, without influence, but in reality,

nobody is *that* cut off from the world.

And it can be really easy (especially in several aspects of some

disturbing bits of culture we have floating around us, the " if it's a

feeling it can't possibly be wrong " stuff) to assume that we can't or

shouldn't ever change what we think or feel, when that isn't true either.

I've had urges to just pick up an instrument and play something that's

way way way out of my potential skill range. And I've had urges to

just open my mouth and have coherent words come out that are somewhat

aligned with what I am thinking.

Equally strong urges, equally frustrating in that moment. But I'm

taught to look at those two moments differently: I'm taught not to

make myself miserable or try to " cure " myself over the first, but I'm

taught to make myself miserable and desire a " cure " over the second.

And you say they're different, and I really can't see how except in

terms of the ways that we're *taught* to feel about them.

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At 10:27 AM 2/8/2006, shea laver wrote:

>That's not quite what I meant. It's very different from such stuff as

>wanting to be something you can't be, or wanting to be able to do stuff

>you are unable to do because you lack the skill. From what you say, you've

>experienced what I'm talking about. It's a division. You know what to do

>but while one part of you says yes, the other is saying no. It's not like

>wanting to be a basketball star and being unable to. It's not about

>comparing yourself. Like thinking something, thinking you should say it,

>but your mouth won't open. A self-division. Like knowing the place needs

>cleaning, but unable to start. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about.

>Wanting to be a basketballer but not having the sporting skill is quite

>different to that. Perhaps, since you've lived with those things for a

>long time, you're accustomed to those problems and it doesn't feel like a

>divide. But it's very recent for me, or the awareness of it, and in my

>mind, it feels very much like a division.

For what it is worth, that sort of " stopping " is directly associated with

overloading myself. I just had it happen a few nights ago--I'm trying to

pack up a whole house full of stuff to make a long-distance move, and I had

a big fight with my teenage daughter in which I was informed I had failed

as a mother.

That sounds awful, but it's actually a pretty normal teenager thing, we're

moving and she's unhappy about it and slopping over all over the place. But

the whole enormity of the chore plus emotional distress shut me down like

flipping a switch.

I didn't worry about it because it's very predictable. If I push, it gets

worse, so I only push if it is life or death. I gave myself the rest of the

evening to rest. I went to bed and got a good night's sleep. I was still

somewhat shut down in the morning, so I took it nice and slow. I did simple

things, one at a time, instead of complicated ones. When I have a task to

do and don't know where to begin, I find one small piece of it that I can

handle and I don't worry about it. For example, if I was shutting down over

trying to clean my house, I would zoom in on one small area and do ONE

thing and only concentrate on that for until I was done, taking breaks as

needed. If it was my kitchen that was a pigsty, say, I would start with the

sink. If it was really bad, I would wash five dishes only, and rest for a

little bit. A little while later I would get up, put those five away, and

do five more. And I would keep at it until it was done, one small, easily

handled chunk at a time.

Unless the situation is drastic, the combination of giving my brain a break

and then starting out with small, easily achievable tasks will usually heal

the inertia within a day. I was completely shut down, and yet, yesterday, I

ended up cleaning my kitchen, getting my laundry done, sorting through

stuff in preparation to packing it and taking care of a wealth of minor

stuff like making phone calls related to the move and generally getting

prepared for it. So doing what I wanted to do wasn't about getting rid of

autism, it was about finding a method that worked for me. Now that I have

it, I spend much less time in inertia because I don't add load to overload

any more.

Z

http://zola.livejournal.com/

" What are we going to do tonight, Brain? "

" The same thing we do every night, Pinky. We're going to try to take over

the world!! " ---Pinky and the Brain

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