Re: Sometimes I think nobody hears me

[Guest guest]

Your problem is not your problem. Your problem is that the people in

your life are violating you, and you had to 'not see' this behavior in

order to maintain a relationship with your mother, and you are 'not

seeing' it in the people in your life in order to maintain those

relationships too. To the problem at hand you need to explain to your

boyfriend not to do the behavior of bull-dozing you or it will be over

with. You are better off alone. The act he did during sex was a huge

violation, to say the least. What an idiot, sorry.

With the friend in the car, you were a victim of sexual assault. You

could have pressed charges. This is a compulsion on his part and he is

doubtless doing it elsewhere, and thought he'd give it a shot with

you. His compulsion is probably escalating and at some point it will

most likely get him in trouble with the law. In that instance what you

did is 'blaming the victim'...it is relatively common for victims of

rape and sexual assault to blame themselves, when the situation was

out of their control from the beginning, as that is part of what gives

the rapist or perpetrator a rush in the first place, taking away

someone's control and violating their sexual boundaries. It makes him

a perpetrator, which is about HIM and trust me that has nothing to do

with you. When he eventually has charges pressed against him and goes

to jail, they aren't going to ask you to serve his time. This is HIS

very serious and dangerous problem.

Same with your mom, violation of your boundaries. Cat-declawing is a

barbaric surgery. There are claw-covers you can get for them now that

eliminate the scratching. I am glad you stood your ground. In that

relationship is the genesis of your problems, your reluctance to see

how she violates your wishes and boundaries, and when these things

happen with a parent it gives us a 'blank spot' so that we don't see

the same characteristics in other people and we keep drawing these

types of folks into our lives. What we need is the ability to heed the

red flags, and talking about how you feel about it is the first step.

[Guest guest]

I really liked Mayalisa's answer, it all hit home a lot, especially,

as copied below:

'when these things

> happen with a parent it gives us a 'blank spot' so that we don't

see

> the same characteristics in other people and we keep drawing these

> types of folks into our lives. What we need is the ability to heed

the

> red flags, and talking about how you feel about it is the first

step'.

I especially liked the comment about the 'blank spot'; it talked to

me directly. I think it's partly what it talks about in SBP -- i.e.

that you can't trust your own judgement about situations others put

you in. You think things like 'well maybe I'm unreasonable to expect

better treatment' etc. etc. Even though part of you knows that the

situation is not right, and is unfair to you, a voice inside always

says 'maybe it's you who is being unreasonable.' And how can you

ever really know, when you were raised by a BPD parent?

Anyway, I'd like to follow up on the post with a couple of questions:

(1) about 'drawing these types of folks into our lives.' Is it that

we attract them, we are attracted TO them, or both? Because I have

the same problem. Soon after I meet someone, they start to mistreat

me. I just let it go because it's what I'm used to and what I

expect. But what happens to the nice people? Are they just not

drawn to me? Or do I somehow reject them without realizing it? Or

is the truth in fact just that I bring out the worst in people, and

those same people would behave very differently if I was different.

(2) If talking about how you feel is the first step, what are the

rest of the steps? Some of these people are not people you can just

get out of your life (exes who are the fathers of your children,

siblings, co-workers, etc.) so what is the key to getting them to

treat you differently?

>

> Your problem is not your problem. Your problem is that the people

in

> your life are violating you, and you had to 'not see' this behavior

in

> order to maintain a relationship with your mother, and you are 'not

> seeing' it in the people in your life in order to maintain those

> relationships too. To the problem at hand you need to explain to

your

> boyfriend not to do the behavior of bull-dozing you or it will be

over

> with. You are better off alone. The act he did during sex was a

huge

> violation, to say the least. What an idiot, sorry.

>

> With the friend in the car, you were a victim of sexual assault.

You

> could have pressed charges. This is a compulsion on his part and he

is

> doubtless doing it elsewhere, and thought he'd give it a shot with

> you. His compulsion is probably escalating and at some point it

will

> most likely get him in trouble with the law. In that instance what

you

> did is 'blaming the victim'...it is relatively common for victims

of

> rape and sexual assault to blame themselves, when the situation was

> out of their control from the beginning, as that is part of what

gives

> the rapist or perpetrator a rush in the first place, taking away

> someone's control and violating their sexual boundaries. It makes

him

> a perpetrator, which is about HIM and trust me that has nothing to

do

> with you. When he eventually has charges pressed against him and

goes

> to jail, they aren't going to ask you to serve his time. This is

HIS

> very serious and dangerous problem.

>

> Same with your mom, violation of your boundaries. Cat-declawing is

a

> barbaric surgery. There are claw-covers you can get for them now

that

> eliminate the scratching. I am glad you stood your ground. In that

> relationship is the genesis of your problems, your reluctance to

see

> how she violates your wishes and boundaries, and when these things

> happen with a parent it gives us a 'blank spot' so that we don't

see

> the same characteristics in other people and we keep drawing these

> types of folks into our lives. What we need is the ability to heed

the

> red flags, and talking about how you feel about it is the first

step.

>

[Guest guest]

Deanna,

I know growing up it was never enough for me to " not like " something -

I had to HATE it. It wasn't enough to feel sick - I had to be

DYING. I couldn't just enjoy something - I had to LOVE it. I

couldn't just be tired - I had to be EXHAUSTED. Not scared,

TERRIFIED. Everything had to go to extremes to register on the nada

scale, and even that didn't do it a good part of the time. But at

least I would get a grunt & a nod when communicating in extremes.

In the 6 months since I've been NC, I'd noticed that a lot of the

dynamics of my relationship with nada play themselves out in modified

form in other arenas - especially the workplace, or somewhere there's

an authority figure. I'd been recognizing the panic I feel in the

office a lot, and without her in my life currently, could finally

tell it was out of place, that it's my emotions not being appropriate

to what's going on. That being said, I went to a seminar Managing

Emotions in the Workplace earlier this month which, without my

knowing it when I signed up, turned out to be a good starting place

for working through nada issues. It focused on learning to be

assertive (not aggressive, not passive-agressive) and maintaining

healthy boundaries in and out of the office. Also self-esteem. I'm

still working through the exercises, but what I've already completed

is opening up new ways of thinking about myself and how I interact

with other people. I'm making changes (small ones, at least) in the

habits I formed with nada and seeing/feeling good results. I have

more hope than I've had in a long time and feel that I can finally

meet my own needs AND NOT BE A SLAVE TO THE NEEDS OF OTHERS. Anyway,

I think this assertiveness training is helping me be heard (maybe for

the first time ever?) and I wanted to suggest it. It was only like

$100, and well worth it in my book.

[Guest guest]

Reading your post brought tears to my eyes. It really resonated with

some experiences with my mom. For example, I broke my tail bone when I

was 11 years old and walked around in pain for six months until my

grandma convinced her that I needed to be taken to an orthopedist. An

X-ray finally convinced her that indeed, I had a broken tail bone.

There have been other instances too. At the ophthalmologist's office,

for example, as I was trying frames for my first pair of glasses she

leaned over and asked " are you pretending not to see just so that you

can get eyeglasses? " I had been standing up in the classroom closer to

the blackboard for months because I could not see what the teacher was

writing. She was the one who finally prompted to get my eyes checked....

I don't know what to say except to answer your question....yes, I have

experienced the same things.

>

> About a year ago, my close friend of over 20 years exposed himself to

> me while I was driving us back to his shop from the movies. He said

> something like, " Hey, look, I have a tumor on my leg " and I looked

> and there he was. This was a 15 minute drive, maybe, and I told him

> " no " and " I'm not interested " and " put it away " about, oh, 50 times or

> more.

>

> I remained very calm and did not look at him again, but he kept

> insisting I look and would not listen to my repeated assertions of

> disinterest. I thought of *yelling* at him, but I have a huge

> aversion to yelling, due to being yelled at by both my parents many

> times when it was not called for, just very out of proportion yelling.

>

> When we reached his shop I told him over and over to " get the fuck out

> of my car " and he would not. Then he grabbed my breast and at this

> point I pushed him off but was too afraid to hit him, as he seemed to

> be in a " zone " where he just *had to* get what he wanted, and I feared

> he would hurt me. He had never exposed himself to me before, and I

> believe he has always had severe sexual problems/issues stemming from

> being molested.

>

> He finally got out of my car and I never spoke to him again. He did

> leave me a message an hour later saying he was " kind of a dick " , so he

> got that he went overboard but I don't think he knew how bad it was.

>

> So it felt *familiar* and it took me some months to realize that the

> first person who didn't hear me was my nada. Like when I had to go to

> the bathroom and she wouldn't take me until I crapped my pants. Or

> when my period was so painful and she wouldn't take me to the doctor

> and I had endometriosis.

>

> Or the most bizarre one, when she wanted to declaw my cat when I was

> 29 and living at home again for 6 weeks while I bought a house. No

> amount of saying no would get through to her. She got this glazed,

> happy look as she mumbled to herself over and over again " I'll do it

> while you're on your trip, I'll pay for it, you'll never know it

> happened. " In this case, I finally told her that if she did it, I

> would never speak to her again. Of course, the next day I was

> punished by her crying all day that I loved *a cat* more than I loved

> my *own mother*.

>

> Both with the assault and this cat instance, I continually asked

> myself, " WHY is this person not hearing me? What did I do wrong that

> they could not understand? Am I saying no wrong? " I know now that I

> should have *screamed* with this " friend " and even pulled over the

> car, told him to get out or I would call 911.

>

> I fear crossing over into crazy screaming nada-land, and I also don't

> think a person should *have to* yell to be heard.

>

> So......as usual, I wonder if *normal* people have this problem and I

> don't know why I want to ask you all, because you know as little about

> normal as I do.

>

> My new boyfriend, who is so considerate in so many ways, ways that are

> surprising, has a problem with pushing me.

>

> Mainly it's with food, and I've told him a few times already that when

> I say no the first time, I would like him to not ask me again. But he

> keeps asking. One time he brought me to a vegetarian restaurant and I

> ordered a salad. I know I had a lot more choices than normal there,

> but I was *in the mood* for a salad. This really bothered him and I

> did confess to him that I had eaten too much at lunch and needed to

> eat something light now. He kept pushing that there were all these

> other options and he wanted me to try this food and I began to feel

> backed against a wall.

>

> Recently (sorry to be so direct here) it happened in bed. I climaxed

> really soon. He felt like it was too soon and wanted me to really

> enjoy myself again. I said I was fine and didn't want to. He tried

> to stimulate me anyway. I said, " what are you doing? " and he said

> " women are multi-orgasmic " and I said, " I don't want to " but he tried

> some more.

>

> Now, there was a time when I would not take no for an answer with

> people on occasion but I learned to stop doing it.

>

> My problem is, it seems like I have said many times like with the food

> that I only wish to say no once. This is reasonable, right? I

> shouldn't have to keep saying no. It's reaching a point where I feel

> like I might blow up eventually, and I don't want to do that.

>

> It just feels like sometimes people don't listen to me and I don't

> know HOW to say " stop doing this " without yelling, as when I say it

> softly, people don't seem to listen.

>

> Has anyone else experienced this?

>

> -Deanna

>

[Guest guest]

I havent read the responses to this yet but holy crap i could have written this

ten times over! I so often ask if there is a big asshole sign on my forehead.

Because we grew up in a house with no boundaries i think us ko's have a very

hard time drawing them. My sister went the other way and has so many boundaries

there is a cement wall surrounding her but i am very much like you. I have a

million examples but just 2 days ago i was standing in the drug store

prescription line when it happened... First let me say that my grandma has an

open account there so when i pick up her prescriptions i get whatever else it is

she needs and they just put it on her card on file. So i have about 6 things

that i put on the counter and say her name for the drugs and this older man

scolds me with " thats what the front counter is for idiot " and at that moment i

absolutely froze. I instantly thought of NADA screaming back with as much venom

as he spewed and knew i wasnt

going that route but then i thought, if i dont say anything i will feel like

shit too. So i just said very calmly " i have prescriptions i need to pick up

sir " which didnt help either. For the whole night i stewed on that wondering why

he would say that. I know he wouldnt have said that to my hubby, or my

sister...etc. its something in me that i put out that i desperately want to

change as well.

Sometimes I think nobody hears me

About a year ago, my close friend of over 20 years exposed himself to

me while I was driving us back to his shop from the movies. He said

something like, " Hey, look, I have a tumor on my leg " and I looked

and there he was. This was a 15 minute drive, maybe, and I told him

" no " and " I'm not interested " and " put it away " about, oh, 50 times or

more.

I remained very calm and did not look at him again, but he kept

insisting I look and would not listen to my repeated assertions of

disinterest. I thought of *yelling* at him, but I have a huge

aversion to yelling, due to being yelled at by both my parents many

times when it was not called for, just very out of proportion yelling.

When we reached his shop I told him over and over to " get the fuck out

of my car " and he would not. Then he grabbed my breast and at this

point I pushed him off but was too afraid to hit him, as he seemed to

be in a " zone " where he just *had to* get what he wanted, and I feared

he would hurt me. He had never exposed himself to me before, and I

believe he has always had severe sexual problems/issues stemming from

being molested.

He finally got out of my car and I never spoke to him again. He did

leave me a message an hour later saying he was " kind of a dick " , so he

got that he went overboard but I don't think he knew how bad it was.

So it felt *familiar* and it took me some months to realize that the

first person who didn't hear me was my nada. Like when I had to go to

the bathroom and she wouldn't take me until I crapped my pants. Or

when my period was so painful and she wouldn't take me to the doctor

and I had endometriosis.

Or the most bizarre one, when she wanted to declaw my cat when I was

29 and living at home again for 6 weeks while I bought a house. No

amount of saying no would get through to her. She got this glazed,

happy look as she mumbled to herself over and over again " I'll do it

while you're on your trip, I'll pay for it, you'll never know it

happened. " In this case, I finally told her that if she did it, I

would never speak to her again. Of course, the next day I was

punished by her crying all day that I loved *a cat* more than I loved

my *own mother*.

Both with the assault and this cat instance, I continually asked

myself, " WHY is this person not hearing me? What did I do wrong that

they could not understand? Am I saying no wrong? " I know now that I

should have *screamed* with this " friend " and even pulled over the

car, told him to get out or I would call 911.

I fear crossing over into crazy screaming nada-land, and I also don't

think a person should *have to* yell to be heard.

So......as usual, I wonder if *normal* people have this problem and I

don't know why I want to ask you all, because you know as little about

normal as I do.

My new boyfriend, who is so considerate in so many ways, ways that are

surprising, has a problem with pushing me.

Mainly it's with food, and I've told him a few times already that when

I say no the first time, I would like him to not ask me again. But he

keeps asking. One time he brought me to a vegetarian restaurant and I

ordered a salad. I know I had a lot more choices than normal there,

but I was *in the mood* for a salad. This really bothered him and I

did confess to him that I had eaten too much at lunch and needed to

eat something light now. He kept pushing that there were all these

other options and he wanted me to try this food and I began to feel

backed against a wall.

Recently (sorry to be so direct here) it happened in bed. I climaxed

really soon. He felt like it was too soon and wanted me to really

enjoy myself again. I said I was fine and didn't want to. He tried

to stimulate me anyway. I said, " what are you doing? " and he said

" women are multi-orgasmic " and I said, " I don't want to " but he tried

some more.

Now, there was a time when I would not take no for an answer with

people on occasion but I learned to stop doing it.

My problem is, it seems like I have said many times like with the food

that I only wish to say no once. This is reasonable, right? I

shouldn't have to keep saying no. It's reaching a point where I feel

like I might blow up eventually, and I don't want to do that.

It just feels like sometimes people don't listen to me and I don't

know HOW to say " stop doing this " without yelling, as when I say it

softly, people don't seem to listen.

Has anyone else experienced this?

-Deanna

________________________________________________________________________________\

____

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[Guest guest]

Wow, similar things happened to me, too! My third grade teacher

insisted I get my eyes checked, not nada. And when I broke my left

wrist, I cried for weeks. It got so bad that I hung out in the school

nurse's office and she had to convince nada to take me to the ER. Lo

and behold, it was a fracture. I had told her that myself for weeks!

> >

> > About a year ago, my close friend of over 20 years exposed himself to

> > me while I was driving us back to his shop from the movies. He said

> > something like, " Hey, look, I have a tumor on my leg " and I looked

> > and there he was. This was a 15 minute drive, maybe, and I told him

> > " no " and " I'm not interested " and " put it away " about, oh, 50 times or

> > more.

> >

> > I remained very calm and did not look at him again, but he kept

> > insisting I look and would not listen to my repeated assertions of

> > disinterest. I thought of *yelling* at him, but I have a huge

> > aversion to yelling, due to being yelled at by both my parents many

> > times when it was not called for, just very out of proportion yelling.

> >

> > When we reached his shop I told him over and over to " get the fuck out

> > of my car " and he would not. Then he grabbed my breast and at this

> > point I pushed him off but was too afraid to hit him, as he seemed to

> > be in a " zone " where he just *had to* get what he wanted, and I feared

> > he would hurt me. He had never exposed himself to me before, and I

> > believe he has always had severe sexual problems/issues stemming from

> > being molested.

> >

> > He finally got out of my car and I never spoke to him again. He did

> > leave me a message an hour later saying he was " kind of a dick " , so he

> > got that he went overboard but I don't think he knew how bad it was.

> >

> > So it felt *familiar* and it took me some months to realize that the

> > first person who didn't hear me was my nada. Like when I had to go to

> > the bathroom and she wouldn't take me until I crapped my pants. Or

> > when my period was so painful and she wouldn't take me to the doctor

> > and I had endometriosis.

> >

> > Or the most bizarre one, when she wanted to declaw my cat when I was

> > 29 and living at home again for 6 weeks while I bought a house. No

> > amount of saying no would get through to her. She got this glazed,

> > happy look as she mumbled to herself over and over again " I'll do it

> > while you're on your trip, I'll pay for it, you'll never know it

> > happened. " In this case, I finally told her that if she did it, I

> > would never speak to her again. Of course, the next day I was

> > punished by her crying all day that I loved *a cat* more than I loved

> > my *own mother*.

> >

> > Both with the assault and this cat instance, I continually asked

> > myself, " WHY is this person not hearing me? What did I do wrong that

> > they could not understand? Am I saying no wrong? " I know now that I

> > should have *screamed* with this " friend " and even pulled over the

> > car, told him to get out or I would call 911.

> >

> > I fear crossing over into crazy screaming nada-land, and I also don't

> > think a person should *have to* yell to be heard.

> >

> > So......as usual, I wonder if *normal* people have this problem and I

> > don't know why I want to ask you all, because you know as little about

> > normal as I do.

> >

> > My new boyfriend, who is so considerate in so many ways, ways that are

> > surprising, has a problem with pushing me.

> >

> > Mainly it's with food, and I've told him a few times already that when

> > I say no the first time, I would like him to not ask me again. But he

> > keeps asking. One time he brought me to a vegetarian restaurant and I

> > ordered a salad. I know I had a lot more choices than normal there,

> > but I was *in the mood* for a salad. This really bothered him and I

> > did confess to him that I had eaten too much at lunch and needed to

> > eat something light now. He kept pushing that there were all these

> > other options and he wanted me to try this food and I began to feel

> > backed against a wall.

> >

> > Recently (sorry to be so direct here) it happened in bed. I climaxed

> > really soon. He felt like it was too soon and wanted me to really

> > enjoy myself again. I said I was fine and didn't want to. He tried

> > to stimulate me anyway. I said, " what are you doing? " and he said

> > " women are multi-orgasmic " and I said, " I don't want to " but he tried

> > some more.

> >

> > Now, there was a time when I would not take no for an answer with

> > people on occasion but I learned to stop doing it.

> >

> > My problem is, it seems like I have said many times like with the food

> > that I only wish to say no once. This is reasonable, right? I

> > shouldn't have to keep saying no. It's reaching a point where I feel

> > like I might blow up eventually, and I don't want to do that.

> >

> > It just feels like sometimes people don't listen to me and I don't

> > know HOW to say " stop doing this " without yelling, as when I say it

> > softly, people don't seem to listen.

> >

> > Has anyone else experienced this?

> >

> > -Deanna

> >

>

[Guest guest]

You know you always think of the best lines after the fact. I came up with a

great come back. You glance over and say, " Oh dear, what a TINY tumor. You

really should get a doctor to cut that off before it gets any bigger! "

If I had been in that situation I probably would have reacted like you did. This

really fits in with KOs ending up transfering the family patterns to the

" friends " we make. This guy is a loser. I'm glad you have cut contact with him.

I think you were lucky to get out of that car, if he calls back tell him that

unless he leaves you alone you will report him to the police. If he continues

not to hear you, follow through. He is unstable. Unbelievable.

Sometimes I think nobody hears me

About a year ago, my close friend of over 20 years exposed himself to

me while I was driving us back to his shop from the movies. He said

something like, " Hey, look, I have a tumor on my leg " and I looked

and there he was. This was a 15 minute drive, maybe, and I told him

" no " and " I'm not interested " and " put it away " about, oh, 50 times or

more.

I remained very calm and did not look at him again, but he kept

insisting I look and would not listen to my repeated assertions of

disinterest. I thought of *yelling* at him, but I have a huge

aversion to yelling, due to being yelled at by both my parents many

times when it was not called for, just very out of proportion yelling.

When we reached his shop I told him over and over to " get the fuck out

of my car " and he would not. Then he grabbed my breast and at this

point I pushed him off but was too afraid to hit him, as he seemed to

be in a " zone " where he just *had to* get what he wanted, and I feared

he would hurt me. He had never exposed himself to me before, and I

believe he has always had severe sexual problems/issues stemming from

being molested.

He finally got out of my car and I never spoke to him again. He did

leave me a message an hour later saying he was " kind of a dick " , so he

got that he went overboard but I don't think he knew how bad it was.

So it felt *familiar* and it took me some months to realize that the

first person who didn't hear me was my nada. Like when I had to go to

the bathroom and she wouldn't take me until I crapped my pants. Or

when my period was so painful and she wouldn't take me to the doctor

and I had endometriosis.

Or the most bizarre one, when she wanted to declaw my cat when I was

29 and living at home again for 6 weeks while I bought a house. No

amount of saying no would get through to her. She got this glazed,

happy look as she mumbled to herself over and over again " I'll do it

while you're on your trip, I'll pay for it, you'll never know it

happened. " In this case, I finally told her that if she did it, I

would never speak to her again. Of course, the next day I was

punished by her crying all day that I loved *a cat* more than I loved

my *own mother*.

Both with the assault and this cat instance, I continually asked

myself, " WHY is this person not hearing me? What did I do wrong that

they could not understand? Am I saying no wrong? " I know now that I

should have *screamed* with this " friend " and even pulled over the

car, told him to get out or I would call 911.

I fear crossing over into crazy screaming nada-land, and I also don't

think a person should *have to* yell to be heard.

So......as usual, I wonder if *normal* people have this problem and I

don't know why I want to ask you all, because you know as little about

normal as I do.

My new boyfriend, who is so considerate in so many ways, ways that are

surprising, has a problem with pushing me.

Mainly it's with food, and I've told him a few times already that when

I say no the first time, I would like him to not ask me again. But he

keeps asking. One time he brought me to a vegetarian restaurant and I

ordered a salad. I know I had a lot more choices than normal there,

but I was *in the mood* for a salad. This really bothered him and I

did confess to him that I had eaten too much at lunch and needed to

eat something light now. He kept pushing that there were all these

other options and he wanted me to try this food and I began to feel

backed against a wall.

Recently (sorry to be so direct here) it happened in bed. I climaxed

really soon. He felt like it was too soon and wanted me to really

enjoy myself again. I said I was fine and didn't want to. He tried

to stimulate me anyway. I said, " what are you doing? " and he said

" women are multi-orgasmic " and I said, " I don't want to " but he tried

some more.

Now, there was a time when I would not take no for an answer with

people on occasion but I learned to stop doing it.

My problem is, it seems like I have said many times like with the food

that I only wish to say no once. This is reasonable, right? I

shouldn't have to keep saying no. It's reaching a point where I feel

like I might blow up eventually, and I don't want to do that.

It just feels like sometimes people don't listen to me and I don't

know HOW to say " stop doing this " without yelling, as when I say it

softly, people don't seem to listen.

Has anyone else experienced this?

-Deanna

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[Guest guest]

Deanna --

With all due respect and love, I think you're contemplating the

wrong question. It's not a " listening " issue. It's a " listening

but disregarded what I said " issue. In all the examples you gave,

you were HEARD but DISREGARDED. Now that you're an adult, you have

the power to do something about it.

The fact is: there are many inconsiderate people in the world.

There are people who discount us and don't " listen " to us because

they're too selfish and self-focused to care what we think. Spending

time wondering why they don't listen really doesn't change that, and

serves the purpose of avoiding what you know you have to do. When

we were children, we were powerless against these types -- and

unfortunately, they were our own parents. But now that we're grown,

we're no longer powerless against the verbal and physical assaults

of selfish people.

All we can do now is take care of ourselves in the midst of people

who " don't listen " . Stand up and defend ourselves. We were not

taught to do that with our nadas, so we seem to lack the tools to

ward off insensitive people and, in the case of your former friend,

aggressive perverts. So, we have to learn how to acquire those

tools. Otherwise, the bullies of the world seem to have a radar

that finds those who don't fight back. It's like a burglar moving

on from the house that obviously has a burglar alarm, and moves on

to the one that looks unprotected. You have to be the " protected "

house -- not the " unprotected " one. When people know you'll take up

for yourself (and yelling isn't the only way), they're less apt to

mess with you.

Yes, as you wrote in your post, you should have yelled when

your " friend " assaulted you. You should have railed against the

assault on you in your own car. You were assaulted by someone who

thought a friendship of 20 years wasn't as important as indulging

his perversion for a few minutes. That would have hurt me, too.

Would have horrified me. Sickened me. But you still have to deal

with it. (Wishing he would " listen " doesn't do you any good. It's

time to act.) But now, you know what he is. There's no denying

it. Molestations of his past are not yours to use as excuses for

him. You have all the facts you need never to speak to this awful

person again -- and keep kids away from him, too. He's dangerous.

Again, this isn't a " listening " problem. It's an assertion

problem. The same with your boyfriend. He has a choice whether or

not he's hearing you -- and in the instances you've given, he's

chosen to disregard what you say. You don't have to justify your

choices, whether they're about food or anything else. We all

deserve the basic respect from others in our intimate circle that we

are fully capable of making choices without being bullied or backed

against a wall. I'm sorry to be so blunt, but this is not a great

sign. Next time you're at a restaurant and you place your order, if

he criticizes it, look directly at him and say, incredulous, " Are

you actually telling me what to order off a menu? " as if it's

incredibly puzzling to you as to why anyone would do that? Turn it

back on him without answering his " question " . If he keeps doing it,

I'd take a step back and take a good hard look at the relationship

going forward. You're going to have to take up for yourself -- as

Dr. Phil says: " YOU teach people how to treat you. " If you don't

put up with it, your boyfriend will realize it's not a line of

questioning he can pursue with you. And if he won't listen to you,

then what's the point?

When your boyfriend doesn't listen, you should pay attention to

that. Say NO again. You seem to want to frame it like " Well I can

either yell, or say politely " I'd rather not. " . Deanna, you have

more choices than to express it in only two forms --

In bed with your boyfriend, move out of the way -- say " No, thank

you, I'm good! " HE doesn't get to decide this for you. If he gets

mad that you don't want to again, then you need to make a note of

that -- it's not right. Relationships are about mutual respect and

consideration. I sense that you're afraid of making him mad -- so

you fade away, and just lament that no one will " listen " . Honey,

they are listening and they heard you loud and clear -- they've just

chosen to disregard what you've said, because they think that their

needs and views come first.

Maybe take a good look at this tendency to disappear in the face of

aggressors. The fact that you're contemplating it is a good thing --

maybe you're ready to examine that piece of your life.

Sorry to be so blunt and write such a long post, but in my opinion,

this was a " listening " issue when we were powerless children and had

selfish parents who disregarded us. But now that we are adults, we

have voices, and we have the right to INSIST that our chosen circle

LISTENS to our voice. The minute we became adults and responsible

for our own lives, it ceased to be a " listening " issue -- it's now

a " disregarding our voice " issue and we have the power to do

something about it. It takes courage to exercise that power, but if

we don't, we'll just disappear in favor of the stronger, more

dominating personality. Just like when we were children.

It's an issue of self-assertion. Of taking up for ourselves.

-Kyla

> >

> > About a year ago, my close friend of over 20 years exposed

himself to

> > me while I was driving us back to his shop from the movies. He

said

> > something like, " Hey, look, I have a tumor on my leg " and I

looked

> > and there he was. This was a 15 minute drive, maybe, and I told

him

> > " no " and " I'm not interested " and " put it away " about, oh, 50

times or

> > more.

> >

> > I remained very calm and did not look at him again, but he kept

> > insisting I look and would not listen to my repeated assertions

of

> > disinterest. I thought of *yelling* at him, but I have a huge

> > aversion to yelling, due to being yelled at by both my parents

many

> > times when it was not called for, just very out of proportion

yelling.

> >

> > When we reached his shop I told him over and over to " get the

fuck out

> > of my car " and he would not. Then he grabbed my breast and at

this

> > point I pushed him off but was too afraid to hit him, as he

seemed to

> > be in a " zone " where he just *had to* get what he wanted, and I

feared

> > he would hurt me. He had never exposed himself to me before,

and I

> > believe he has always had severe sexual problems/issues stemming

from

> > being molested.

> >

> > He finally got out of my car and I never spoke to him again. He

did

> > leave me a message an hour later saying he was " kind of a dick " ,

so he

> > got that he went overboard but I don't think he knew how bad it

was.

> >

> > So it felt *familiar* and it took me some months to realize that

the

> > first person who didn't hear me was my nada. Like when I had to

go to

> > the bathroom and she wouldn't take me until I crapped my pants.

Or

> > when my period was so painful and she wouldn't take me to the

doctor

> > and I had endometriosis.

> >

> > Or the most bizarre one, when she wanted to declaw my cat when I

was

> > 29 and living at home again for 6 weeks while I bought a house.

No

> > amount of saying no would get through to her. She got this

glazed,

> > happy look as she mumbled to herself over and over again " I'll

do it

> > while you're on your trip, I'll pay for it, you'll never know it

> > happened. " In this case, I finally told her that if she did it,

I

> > would never speak to her again. Of course, the next day I was

> > punished by her crying all day that I loved *a cat* more than I

loved

> > my *own mother*.

> >

> > Both with the assault and this cat instance, I continually asked

> > myself, " WHY is this person not hearing me? What did I do wrong

that

> > they could not understand? Am I saying no wrong? " I know now

that I

> > should have *screamed* with this " friend " and even pulled over

the

> > car, told him to get out or I would call 911.

> >

> > I fear crossing over into crazy screaming nada-land, and I also

don't

> > think a person should *have to* yell to be heard.

> >

> > So......as usual, I wonder if *normal* people have this problem

and I

> > don't know why I want to ask you all, because you know as little

about

> > normal as I do.

> >

> > My new boyfriend, who is so considerate in so many ways, ways

that are

> > surprising, has a problem with pushing me.

> >

> > Mainly it's with food, and I've told him a few times already

that when

> > I say no the first time, I would like him to not ask me again.

But he

> > keeps asking. One time he brought me to a vegetarian restaurant

and I

> > ordered a salad. I know I had a lot more choices than normal

there,

> > but I was *in the mood* for a salad. This really bothered him

and I

> > did confess to him that I had eaten too much at lunch and needed

to

> > eat something light now. He kept pushing that there were all

these

> > other options and he wanted me to try this food and I began to

feel

> > backed against a wall.

> >

> > Recently (sorry to be so direct here) it happened in bed. I

climaxed

> > really soon. He felt like it was too soon and wanted me to

really

> > enjoy myself again. I said I was fine and didn't want to. He

tried

> > to stimulate me anyway. I said, " what are you doing? " and he

said

> > " women are multi-orgasmic " and I said, " I don't want to " but he

tried

> > some more.

> >

> > Now, there was a time when I would not take no for an answer with

> > people on occasion but I learned to stop doing it.

> >

> > My problem is, it seems like I have said many times like with

the food

> > that I only wish to say no once. This is reasonable, right? I

> > shouldn't have to keep saying no. It's reaching a point where I

feel

> > like I might blow up eventually, and I don't want to do that.

> >

> > It just feels like sometimes people don't listen to me and I

don't

> > know HOW to say " stop doing this " without yelling, as when I say

it

> > softly, people don't seem to listen.

> >

> > Has anyone else experienced this?

> >

> > -Deanna

> >

>

[Guest guest]

mayalisa, I loved what you wrote. you said in a shorter space what

I blathered on about in my post. You said it well --

-Kyla

>

> Your problem is not your problem. Your problem is that the people

in

> your life are violating you, and you had to 'not see' this

behavior in

> order to maintain a relationship with your mother, and you

are 'not

> seeing' it in the people in your life in order to maintain those

> relationships too. To the problem at hand you need to explain to

your

> boyfriend not to do the behavior of bull-dozing you or it will be

over

> with. You are better off alone. The act he did during sex was a

huge

> violation, to say the least. What an idiot, sorry.

>

> With the friend in the car, you were a victim of sexual assault.

You

> could have pressed charges. This is a compulsion on his part and

he is

> doubtless doing it elsewhere, and thought he'd give it a shot with

> you. His compulsion is probably escalating and at some point it

will

> most likely get him in trouble with the law. In that instance what

you

> did is 'blaming the victim'...it is relatively common for victims

of

> rape and sexual assault to blame themselves, when the situation

was

> out of their control from the beginning, as that is part of what

gives

> the rapist or perpetrator a rush in the first place, taking away

> someone's control and violating their sexual boundaries. It makes

him

> a perpetrator, which is about HIM and trust me that has nothing to

do

> with you. When he eventually has charges pressed against him and

goes

> to jail, they aren't going to ask you to serve his time. This is

HIS

> very serious and dangerous problem.

>

> Same with your mom, violation of your boundaries. Cat-declawing is

a

> barbaric surgery. There are claw-covers you can get for them now

that

> eliminate the scratching. I am glad you stood your ground. In that

> relationship is the genesis of your problems, your reluctance to

see

> how she violates your wishes and boundaries, and when these things

> happen with a parent it gives us a 'blank spot' so that we don't

see

> the same characteristics in other people and we keep drawing these

> types of folks into our lives. What we need is the ability to heed

the

> red flags, and talking about how you feel about it is the first

step.

>

[Guest guest]

I don't think you have this huge sign that hangs out in your blind spot that

says, " Jerks wanted. " We may be prone to accepting some of these people into our

lives because the pattern is so familar. The habit of being hurt is so strong

that we allow those who pass through our lives more access than those who would

treat us better. The good ones we have suspicions for you because we are forever

waiting for the other shoe to drop.

As for that guy, you noticed him because he pushed your button. I don't think he

would have treated anyone else differently, or maybe any other woman

differently. There is still alot of chauvanism going around and this guy is just

your garden everyday jerk. I think we are more sensitive to this behavior

because we have endured it for so long. So called normals would just blow it

off. Good for you for standing up to him. This past weekend someone said

something really nasty to my son when they thought I wasn't listening and then

ran off. A 70 something year old man. Fortunately, I don't think my son knew

what he was talking about and it isn't important what he said. I caught it, but

the SOB was out of range before I could get to him and ask him to repeat what he

said to my son to my face. Hit and run. Coward.

Be strong.

Sometimes I think nobody hears me

About a year ago, my close friend of over 20 years exposed himself to

me while I was driving us back to his shop from the movies. He said

something like, " Hey, look, I have a tumor on my leg " and I looked

and there he was. This was a 15 minute drive, maybe, and I told him

" no " and " I'm not interested " and " put it away " about, oh, 50 times or

more.

I remained very calm and did not look at him again, but he kept

insisting I look and would not listen to my repeated assertions of

disinterest. I thought of *yelling* at him, but I have a huge

aversion to yelling, due to being yelled at by both my parents many

times when it was not called for, just very out of proportion yelling.

When we reached his shop I told him over and over to " get the fuck out

of my car " and he would not. Then he grabbed my breast and at this

point I pushed him off but was too afraid to hit him, as he seemed to

be in a " zone " where he just *had to* get what he wanted, and I feared

he would hurt me. He had never exposed himself to me before, and I

believe he has always had severe sexual problems/issues stemming from

being molested.

He finally got out of my car and I never spoke to him again. He did

leave me a message an hour later saying he was " kind of a dick " , so he

got that he went overboard but I don't think he knew how bad it was.

So it felt *familiar* and it took me some months to realize that the

first person who didn't hear me was my nada. Like when I had to go to

the bathroom and she wouldn't take me until I crapped my pants. Or

when my period was so painful and she wouldn't take me to the doctor

and I had endometriosis.

Or the most bizarre one, when she wanted to declaw my cat when I was

29 and living at home again for 6 weeks while I bought a house. No

amount of saying no would get through to her. She got this glazed,

happy look as she mumbled to herself over and over again " I'll do it

while you're on your trip, I'll pay for it, you'll never know it

happened. " In this case, I finally told her that if she did it, I

would never speak to her again. Of course, the next day I was

punished by her crying all day that I loved *a cat* more than I loved

my *own mother*.

Both with the assault and this cat instance, I continually asked

myself, " WHY is this person not hearing me? What did I do wrong that

they could not understand? Am I saying no wrong? " I know now that I

should have *screamed* with this " friend " and even pulled over the

car, told him to get out or I would call 911.

I fear crossing over into crazy screaming nada-land, and I also don't

think a person should *have to* yell to be heard.

So.......as usual, I wonder if *normal* people have this problem and I

don't know why I want to ask you all, because you know as little about

normal as I do.

My new boyfriend, who is so considerate in so many ways, ways that are

surprising, has a problem with pushing me.

Mainly it's with food, and I've told him a few times already that when

I say no the first time, I would like him to not ask me again. But he

keeps asking. One time he brought me to a vegetarian restaurant and I

ordered a salad. I know I had a lot more choices than normal there,

but I was *in the mood* for a salad. This really bothered him and I

did confess to him that I had eaten too much at lunch and needed to

eat something light now. He kept pushing that there were all these

other options and he wanted me to try this food and I began to feel

backed against a wall.

Recently (sorry to be so direct here) it happened in bed. I climaxed

really soon. He felt like it was too soon and wanted me to really

enjoy myself again. I said I was fine and didn't want to. He tried

to stimulate me anyway. I said, " what are you doing? " and he said

" women are multi-orgasmic " and I said, " I don't want to " but he tried

some more.

Now, there was a time when I would not take no for an answer with

people on occasion but I learned to stop doing it.

My problem is, it seems like I have said many times like with the food

that I only wish to say no once. This is reasonable, right? I

shouldn't have to keep saying no. It's reaching a point where I feel

like I might blow up eventually, and I don't want to do that.

It just feels like sometimes people don't listen to me and I don't

know HOW to say " stop doing this " without yelling, as when I say it

softly, people don't seem to listen.

Has anyone else experienced this?

-Deanna

________________________________________________________________________________\

____

Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.

http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

[Guest guest]

Maybe I'm wrong. But, it seems like your boyfriend is doing some

borderline behaviors...ie..not allowing you a choice at what you

eat, insisting and controlling you, even after you've said no.

Later, this may worsen into rages. I'd be concerned about it.

Only, because, my husband (as my boyfriend) was doing things like

that. Turns out his diagnosis is " severely borderline. " I found

this out in therapy fifteen years into my marraige. Basically, I

married my mother. It's an all to common theme- to re-marry our

past because it seems " normal " to us. It's what we have always

known love to be like. Even though, it never really made sense to

us at the time. My husband also has narcissistic tendencies...of

controlling others and doing things to build his own ego (like

orgasms that you don't want). There's a great site on narcissism on

MSN groups. It explains it really well. I'll

NARCISSISTIC_PERSONALITY_DISORDER Group

> >

> > About a year ago, my close friend of over 20 years exposed

himself to

> > me while I was driving us back to his shop from the movies. He

said

> > something like, " Hey, look, I have a tumor on my leg " and I

looked

> > and there he was. This was a 15 minute drive, maybe, and I told

him

> > " no " and " I'm not interested " and " put it away " about, oh, 50

times or

> > more.

> >

> > I remained very calm and did not look at him again, but he kept

> > insisting I look and would not listen to my repeated assertions

of

> > disinterest. I thought of *yelling* at him, but I have a huge

> > aversion to yelling, due to being yelled at by both my parents

many

> > times when it was not called for, just very out of proportion

yelling.

> >

> > When we reached his shop I told him over and over to " get the

fuck out

> > of my car " and he would not. Then he grabbed my breast and at

this

> > point I pushed him off but was too afraid to hit him, as he

seemed to

> > be in a " zone " where he just *had to* get what he wanted, and I

feared

> > he would hurt me. He had never exposed himself to me before,

and I

> > believe he has always had severe sexual problems/issues stemming

from

> > being molested.

> >

> > He finally got out of my car and I never spoke to him again. He

did

> > leave me a message an hour later saying he was " kind of a dick " ,

so he

> > got that he went overboard but I don't think he knew how bad it

was.

> >

> > So it felt *familiar* and it took me some months to realize that

the

> > first person who didn't hear me was my nada. Like when I had to

go to

> > the bathroom and she wouldn't take me until I crapped my pants.

Or

> > when my period was so painful and she wouldn't take me to the

doctor

> > and I had endometriosis.

> >

> > Or the most bizarre one, when she wanted to declaw my cat when I

was

> > 29 and living at home again for 6 weeks while I bought a house.

No

> > amount of saying no would get through to her. She got this

glazed,

> > happy look as she mumbled to herself over and over again " I'll

do it

> > while you're on your trip, I'll pay for it, you'll never know it

> > happened. " In this case, I finally told her that if she did it,

I

> > would never speak to her again. Of course, the next day I was

> > punished by her crying all day that I loved *a cat* more than I

loved

> > my *own mother*.

> >

> > Both with the assault and this cat instance, I continually asked

> > myself, " WHY is this person not hearing me? What did I do wrong

that

> > they could not understand? Am I saying no wrong? " I know now

that I

> > should have *screamed* with this " friend " and even pulled over

the

> > car, told him to get out or I would call 911.

> >

> > I fear crossing over into crazy screaming nada-land, and I also

don't

> > think a person should *have to* yell to be heard.

> >

> > So......as usual, I wonder if *normal* people have this problem

and I

> > don't know why I want to ask you all, because you know as little

about

> > normal as I do.

> >

> > My new boyfriend, who is so considerate in so many ways, ways

that are

> > surprising, has a problem with pushing me.

> >

> > Mainly it's with food, and I've told him a few times already

that when

> > I say no the first time, I would like him to not ask me again.

But he

> > keeps asking. One time he brought me to a vegetarian restaurant

and I

> > ordered a salad. I know I had a lot more choices than normal

there,

> > but I was *in the mood* for a salad. This really bothered him

and I

> > did confess to him that I had eaten too much at lunch and needed

to

> > eat something light now. He kept pushing that there were all

these

> > other options and he wanted me to try this food and I began to

feel

> > backed against a wall.

> >

> > Recently (sorry to be so direct here) it happened in bed. I

climaxed

> > really soon. He felt like it was too soon and wanted me to

really

> > enjoy myself again. I said I was fine and didn't want to. He

tried

> > to stimulate me anyway. I said, " what are you doing? " and he

said

> > " women are multi-orgasmic " and I said, " I don't want to " but he

tried

> > some more.

> >

> > Now, there was a time when I would not take no for an answer with

> > people on occasion but I learned to stop doing it.

> >

> > My problem is, it seems like I have said many times like with

the food

> > that I only wish to say no once. This is reasonable, right? I

> > shouldn't have to keep saying no. It's reaching a point where I

feel

> > like I might blow up eventually, and I don't want to do that.

> >

> > It just feels like sometimes people don't listen to me and I

don't

> > know HOW to say " stop doing this " without yelling, as when I say

it

> > softly, people don't seem to listen.

> >

> > Has anyone else experienced this?

> >

> > -Deanna

> >

>

[Guest guest]

thanks for that, what a raging hemorrhoidal jerk that guy was.

I think it's true that they can read us, people who have had our

boundaries violated. Predators are always looking for prey. My own

personal belief, which is just for me, is that there is no real

satisfaction in that kind of behavior. It may make them feel good on

the surface if they feel they can dispel negative energy onto a

vulnerable person, but spiritually it is abominable and since I

believe in karma I truly believe it comes back on them. I think you

reacted just fine. I am finding that I can't change my personality,

and I am trying to accept that I have been violated in some ways

that might be somewhat obvious to predatory people, but that if I am

violated by them in these little ways it is on *them*, spiritually,

not on *me* and that I don't have to let myself be baited into

behaving back towards them in a way that I will feel bad about. I

have always had horrible interactions with mechanics, mechanics and

I are like oil and water. The last two disasterous interactions I've

had with mechanics I tried something different, which was a kind

of " I will not be moved " assertiveness. I can't use physical power,

and I am not a " street-wise " or physically imposing woman, nor do I

have a gift for snappy comebacks, but I can refuse to be moved.

Because in the past I would get nervous and talk a lot and the other

person would pick up on my anxiety. I had a mechanic a few months

ago get my window stuck rolled down, and I stood there and said very

little and just maintained eye contact with them, and for the first

time in my life I could feel the power shift, when I was calm and

unmoved. He started to get uncomfortable with the silence, and

started talking, which lead to his eventually ordering me a new part

for my window, and fixed it. Of course I am just learning this with

strangers, with family I think my learning curve is much slower.

But it is all so alien to me, this assertiveness stuff, because I

thought it was something I had to *do*. I am realizing more and more

that silence, and non-response is much more effective for me anyway,

it's like that line from Sylvia Plath, (paraphrase) " I listen to the

old brag of my heart/ I am...I am...I am... I think before I thought

I had to control people because if someone was an arsehole to me it

said something about *me*. I'm getting to the point of refusing to

believe that anymore, and trying to focus on how I conduct myself in

response to it. People know when they are being jerks and sometimes

you have to give them space and quiet for it to really sink in, or

at least for it to be obvious to bystanders that they are in the

wrong. I'm sure if you could ask that guy's higher self he would be

like 'lady, please don't take me personally, I was being a big jerk

and that has nothing to do with you.'

[Guest guest]

Thank you to everyone for your responses. I love how when I'm feeling

anxious or nervous about something, I can come to this board and get

so much support and understanding. I did write my BF an email just

after work, in which I overexplained ( :-) ) myself, citing the

examples that I cited in my post here.

I did a google search on boundaries, and used what I learned. I

explained that his actions led to my feelings and told him if he

pushes me I will say, " I've had enough. " I also said that if he

continues I will have to cut the evening short.

So he replied to my email:

I'm sorry.

I fully acknowledge my behavior. I guess I've always thought of it as

cute,

but maybe I need to re-evaluate. I know I take it too far some times. I

think most people find it mildly annoying from time to time. Perhaps

they

are more annoyed than I admit to myself. I did not realize you find

it much

more than annoying. I will have to work on this. However, it is an

ingrained part of my annoying self and will not be easy to fix. I

don't say

this to make excuses for myself. I am not asking you to accept something

that bothers you this much. I am only asking for some patience and

early/firm reminders when I lapse. I will lapse. But I will make an

effort

to improve over time. And I will stop when you point it out to me. I'm

glad you said something now instead of waiting until it got unbearable.

Thank you. Very mature. I'm impressed and jealous.

Overall, my hope is that this problem (which is 99% pushing food on

me) is just a bad habit that he can work on, and not some kind of

indication of overall jerkiness. The guy really, really loves food.

He wants me to enjoy what he's enjoying.

Usually, he goes out of his way to make sure I am comfortable and that

I have what I want. He doesn't like me to get up and get him a glass

of water when he comes over. My light switch wasn't working so he

went out and bought me one to install himself.

So I guess only time will tell.

Thank you all so much, again, for helping me with fleas and general

learning-how-to-be-safe-and-care-for-myself-ness.

[Guest guest]

serpentwoman13, I am sorry to hear of how your nada neglected your

physical needs. I know it's not even the physical pain, but her

refusal to acknowledge it that hurts so much. Thank you for your response.

-Deanna

> >

> > About a year ago, my close friend of over 20 years exposed himself to

> > me while I was driving us back to his shop from the movies. He said

> > something like, " Hey, look, I have a tumor on my leg " and I looked

> > and there he was. This was a 15 minute drive, maybe, and I told him

> > " no " and " I'm not interested " and " put it away " about, oh, 50 times or

> > more.

> >

> > I remained very calm and did not look at him again, but he kept

> > insisting I look and would not listen to my repeated assertions of

> > disinterest. I thought of *yelling* at him, but I have a huge

> > aversion to yelling, due to being yelled at by both my parents many

> > times when it was not called for, just very out of proportion yelling.

> >

> > When we reached his shop I told him over and over to " get the fuck out

> > of my car " and he would not. Then he grabbed my breast and at this

> > point I pushed him off but was too afraid to hit him, as he seemed to

> > be in a " zone " where he just *had to* get what he wanted, and I feared

> > he would hurt me. He had never exposed himself to me before, and I

> > believe he has always had severe sexual problems/issues stemming from

> > being molested.

> >

> > He finally got out of my car and I never spoke to him again. He did

> > leave me a message an hour later saying he was " kind of a dick " , so he

> > got that he went overboard but I don't think he knew how bad it was.

> >

> > So it felt *familiar* and it took me some months to realize that the

> > first person who didn't hear me was my nada. Like when I had to go to

> > the bathroom and she wouldn't take me until I crapped my pants. Or

> > when my period was so painful and she wouldn't take me to the doctor

> > and I had endometriosis.

> >

> > Or the most bizarre one, when she wanted to declaw my cat when I was

> > 29 and living at home again for 6 weeks while I bought a house. No

> > amount of saying no would get through to her. She got this glazed,

> > happy look as she mumbled to herself over and over again " I'll do it

> > while you're on your trip, I'll pay for it, you'll never know it

> > happened. " In this case, I finally told her that if she did it, I

> > would never speak to her again. Of course, the next day I was

> > punished by her crying all day that I loved *a cat* more than I loved

> > my *own mother*.

> >

> > Both with the assault and this cat instance, I continually asked

> > myself, " WHY is this person not hearing me? What did I do wrong that

> > they could not understand? Am I saying no wrong? " I know now that I

> > should have *screamed* with this " friend " and even pulled over the

> > car, told him to get out or I would call 911.

> >

> > I fear crossing over into crazy screaming nada-land, and I also don't

> > think a person should *have to* yell to be heard.

> >

> > So......as usual, I wonder if *normal* people have this problem and I

> > don't know why I want to ask you all, because you know as little about

> > normal as I do.

> >

> > My new boyfriend, who is so considerate in so many ways, ways that are

> > surprising, has a problem with pushing me.

> >

> > Mainly it's with food, and I've told him a few times already that when

> > I say no the first time, I would like him to not ask me again. But he

> > keeps asking. One time he brought me to a vegetarian restaurant and I

> > ordered a salad. I know I had a lot more choices than normal there,

> > but I was *in the mood* for a salad. This really bothered him and I

> > did confess to him that I had eaten too much at lunch and needed to

> > eat something light now. He kept pushing that there were all these

> > other options and he wanted me to try this food and I began to feel

> > backed against a wall.

> >

> > Recently (sorry to be so direct here) it happened in bed. I climaxed

> > really soon. He felt like it was too soon and wanted me to really

> > enjoy myself again. I said I was fine and didn't want to. He tried

> > to stimulate me anyway. I said, " what are you doing? " and he said

> > " women are multi-orgasmic " and I said, " I don't want to " but he tried

> > some more.

> >

> > Now, there was a time when I would not take no for an answer with

> > people on occasion but I learned to stop doing it.

> >

> > My problem is, it seems like I have said many times like with the food

> > that I only wish to say no once. This is reasonable, right? I

> > shouldn't have to keep saying no. It's reaching a point where I feel

> > like I might blow up eventually, and I don't want to do that.

> >

> > It just feels like sometimes people don't listen to me and I don't

> > know HOW to say " stop doing this " without yelling, as when I say it

> > softly, people don't seem to listen.

> >

> > Has anyone else experienced this?

> >

> > -Deanna

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Kirsten! Your example about waiting for a prescription hit home!

Similar things happen to me -- I don't know how to respond when

people are rude. For example, I was waiting at the bakery counter,

patiently, and then a man came out from behind me and got the

attention of the clerk and the clerk didn't seem to notice that I had

been standing there waiting all that time! (yes, I sometimes think I

am invisible . . . ) So, I said, quite firmly but not

aggressively, 'it's my turn, I've been waiting here for a few minutes

now' and he just started screaming at me. I froze in place and then

ran out of the store, crying. The man actually followed me across

the parking lot and to my car, still shouting at me. I was shaking

with fear as I drove home (I never did get my bread, needless to

say!) And I was upset about it for weeks. Even now, when I think

about it, I get upset. My question is, do we really have such a sign

on our foreheads as you asked? Or is it just that another person

with a different upbringing would have been more aggressive thus

nipping his aggression in the bud? Or is it perhaps that a 'normal'

person would just have written the guy off as 'rude asshole' and not

let it upset them, whereas we tend to always analyze everything from

the perspective of 'what did I do wrong?'

>

> I havent read the responses to this yet but holy crap i could have

written this ten times over! I so often ask if there is a big asshole

sign on my forehead. Because we grew up in a house with no boundaries

i think us ko's have a very hard time drawing them. My sister went

the other way and has so many boundaries there is a cement wall

surrounding her but i am very much like you. I have a million

examples but just 2 days ago i was standing in the drug store

prescription line when it happened... First let me say that my

grandma has an open account there so when i pick up her prescriptions

i get whatever else it is she needs and they just put it on her card

on file. So i have about 6 things that i put on the counter and say

her name for the drugs and this older man scolds me with " thats what

the front counter is for idiot " and at that moment i absolutely

froze. I instantly thought of NADA screaming back with as much venom

as he spewed and knew i wasnt

> going that route but then i thought, if i dont say anything i will

feel like shit too. So i just said very calmly " i have prescriptions

i need to pick up sir " which didnt help either. For the whole night i

stewed on that wondering why he would say that. I know he wouldnt

have said that to my hubby, or my sister...etc. its something in me

that i put out that i desperately want to change as well.

>

>

>

> Sometimes I think nobody hears me

>

> About a year ago, my close friend of over 20 years exposed himself

to

> me while I was driving us back to his shop from the movies. He said

> something like, " Hey, look, I have a tumor on my leg " and I looked

> and there he was. This was a 15 minute drive, maybe, and I told him

> " no " and " I'm not interested " and " put it away " about, oh, 50 times

or

> more.

>

> I remained very calm and did not look at him again, but he kept

> insisting I look and would not listen to my repeated assertions of

> disinterest. I thought of *yelling* at him, but I have a huge

> aversion to yelling, due to being yelled at by both my parents many

> times when it was not called for, just very out of proportion

yelling.

>

> When we reached his shop I told him over and over to " get the fuck

out

> of my car " and he would not. Then he grabbed my breast and at this

> point I pushed him off but was too afraid to hit him, as he seemed

to

> be in a " zone " where he just *had to* get what he wanted, and I

feared

> he would hurt me. He had never exposed himself to me before, and I

> believe he has always had severe sexual problems/issues stemming

from

> being molested.

>

> He finally got out of my car and I never spoke to him again. He did

> leave me a message an hour later saying he was " kind of a dick " , so

he

> got that he went overboard but I don't think he knew how bad it was.

>

> So it felt *familiar* and it took me some months to realize that the

> first person who didn't hear me was my nada. Like when I had to go

to

> the bathroom and she wouldn't take me until I crapped my pants. Or

> when my period was so painful and she wouldn't take me to the doctor

> and I had endometriosis.

>

> Or the most bizarre one, when she wanted to declaw my cat when I was

> 29 and living at home again for 6 weeks while I bought a house. No

> amount of saying no would get through to her. She got this glazed,

> happy look as she mumbled to herself over and over again " I'll do it

> while you're on your trip, I'll pay for it, you'll never know it

> happened. " In this case, I finally told her that if she did it, I

> would never speak to her again. Of course, the next day I was

> punished by her crying all day that I loved *a cat* more than I

loved

> my *own mother*.

>

> Both with the assault and this cat instance, I continually asked

> myself, " WHY is this person not hearing me? What did I do wrong that

> they could not understand? Am I saying no wrong? " I know now that I

> should have *screamed* with this " friend " and even pulled over the

> car, told him to get out or I would call 911.

>

> I fear crossing over into crazy screaming nada-land, and I also

don't

> think a person should *have to* yell to be heard.

>

> So......as usual, I wonder if *normal* people have this problem and

I

> don't know why I want to ask you all, because you know as little

about

> normal as I do.

>

> My new boyfriend, who is so considerate in so many ways, ways that

are

> surprising, has a problem with pushing me.

>

> Mainly it's with food, and I've told him a few times already that

when

> I say no the first time, I would like him to not ask me again. But

he

> keeps asking. One time he brought me to a vegetarian restaurant and

I

> ordered a salad. I know I had a lot more choices than normal there,

> but I was *in the mood* for a salad. This really bothered him and I

> did confess to him that I had eaten too much at lunch and needed to

> eat something light now. He kept pushing that there were all these

> other options and he wanted me to try this food and I began to feel

> backed against a wall.

>

> Recently (sorry to be so direct here) it happened in bed. I climaxed

> really soon. He felt like it was too soon and wanted me to really

> enjoy myself again. I said I was fine and didn't want to. He tried

> to stimulate me anyway. I said, " what are you doing? " and he said

> " women are multi-orgasmic " and I said, " I don't want to " but he

tried

> some more.

>

> Now, there was a time when I would not take no for an answer with

> people on occasion but I learned to stop doing it.

>

> My problem is, it seems like I have said many times like with the

food

> that I only wish to say no once. This is reasonable, right? I

> shouldn't have to keep saying no. It's reaching a point where I feel

> like I might blow up eventually, and I don't want to do that.

>

> It just feels like sometimes people don't listen to me and I don't

> know HOW to say " stop doing this " without yelling, as when I say it

> softly, people don't seem to listen.

>

> Has anyone else experienced this?

>

> -Deanna

>

>

>

>

>

>

______________________________________________________________________

______________

> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.

> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

>

>

[Guest guest]

You're right, Kyla. It does sound like he is expecting me to police

him. I know that I will only have so much energy to do that before I

am just *done* so it will be up to him to take it seriously, and up to

me to enforce it.

I know that if someone told him they would cut his hand off if he did

that, he would be able to never do it again.

I also know that I used to do the same thing, and I have stopped.

I will definitely keep my eyes open on this one. Thank you for your

honesty.

-Deanna

> >

> > Thank you to everyone for your responses. I love how when I'm

> feeling

> > anxious or nervous about something, I can come to this board and

> get

> > so much support and understanding. I did write my BF an email just

> > after work, in which I overexplained ( :-) ) myself, citing the

> > examples that I cited in my post here.

> >

> > I did a google search on boundaries, and used what I learned. I

> > explained that his actions led to my feelings and told him if he

> > pushes me I will say, " I've had enough. " I also said that if he

> > continues I will have to cut the evening short.

> >

> > So he replied to my email:

> >

> > I'm sorry.

> >

> > I fully acknowledge my behavior. I guess I've always thought of

> it as

> > cute,

> > but maybe I need to re-evaluate. I know I take it too far some

> times. I

> > think most people find it mildly annoying from time to time.

> Perhaps

> > they

> > are more annoyed than I admit to myself. I did not realize you

> find

> > it much

> > more than annoying. I will have to work on this. However, it is

> an

> > ingrained part of my annoying self and will not be easy to fix. I

> > don't say

> > this to make excuses for myself. I am not asking you to accept

> something

> > that bothers you this much. I am only asking for some patience

> and

> > early/firm reminders when I lapse. I will lapse. But I will make

> an

> > effort

> > to improve over time. And I will stop when you point it out to

> me. I'm

> > glad you said something now instead of waiting until it got

> unbearable.

> > Thank you. Very mature. I'm impressed and jealous.

> >

> >

> > Overall, my hope is that this problem (which is 99% pushing food on

> > me) is just a bad habit that he can work on, and not some kind of

> > indication of overall jerkiness. The guy really, really loves

> food.

> > He wants me to enjoy what he's enjoying.

> >

> > Usually, he goes out of his way to make sure I am comfortable and

> that

> > I have what I want. He doesn't like me to get up and get him a

> glass

> > of water when he comes over. My light switch wasn't working so he

> > went out and bought me one to install himself.

> >

> > So I guess only time will tell.

> >

> > Thank you all so much, again, for helping me with fleas and general

> > learning-how-to-be-safe-and-care-for-myself-ness.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

wow, this hit me like a lightning bolt:

" My mother taught me to do this very

well. Because I tend to feel someone else's feelings, if someone

wrongs me,

I feel their side of things more strongly than my own. "

I know I do this. I am empathetic far past the point of it being

healthy. Thanks for posting that, I know that I need to stop seeing

the other side so much as well, and just focus on what is going on

from my perspective and take care of myself.

[Guest guest]

I think it's that a normal person who hasn't had their mind played

with by a bpd would be chagrined and upset too but since they didn't

grow up hearing 'it's YOUR fault that I am acting like a lunatic'

or 'I'm not acting like a lunatic and the only reason you think I am

is because YOU are crazy' they wouldn't torture themselves

about 'why did this happen to me'. Or maybe they would, but after

the fact. The last therapist I saw worked with me a little on this;

I told him some of my experiences of being 'pushed around' in some

situations on different jobs over the years, because of my 'panic

response' when I try to stand up for myself. (It isn't always this

way, but often enough to where it bothers me). He said that people

were reading me, and that they saw what my buttons were that they

could push, but that it makes them assholes. After he heard my

history he got angry on my behalf that people would use what is

really a response to trauma to violate someone's boundaries. And

he's right; it says something about their character, and that is

nothing that I want to be or want to emulate. That man sounded like

a first-class lunatic, no doubt about it. I feel sorry for his

family and pets and coworkers if he is willing to go off like that

on a total stranger. Pursuing someone like that would qualify as

assault in some states because all you have to have some places is

the fear that you are about to be assaulted in order for it to

qualify, if you are actually touched physically it would be assault

and battery. He sounds like a classic rageaholic, and you just got

unlucky enough to cross his path. If you'd not said anything you'd

be beating yourself up about that as well; you did the right and

appropriate thing, it just did not turn out well. You had a very

human reaction to it too. Hugs.

[Guest guest]

And I hope you know I wouldn't hurt you for the world -- nor do I

want to see anyone hurt you, either. I meant it in a sisterly way.

If you were my sister, that's what I'd tell you. Thanks for

listening -- and as always, do what you decide is best.

TWYNALTR,

{Big Hugs}

Kyla

> > >

> > > Thank you to everyone for your responses. I love how when I'm

> > feeling

> > > anxious or nervous about something, I can come to this board

and

> > get

> > > so much support and understanding. I did write my BF an email

just

> > > after work, in which I overexplained ( :-) ) myself, citing

the

> > > examples that I cited in my post here.

> > >

> > > I did a google search on boundaries, and used what I learned. I

> > > explained that his actions led to my feelings and told him if

he

> > > pushes me I will say, " I've had enough. " I also said that if

he

> > > continues I will have to cut the evening short.

> > >

> > > So he replied to my email:

> > >

> > > I'm sorry.

> > >

> > > I fully acknowledge my behavior. I guess I've always thought

of

> > it as

> > > cute,

> > > but maybe I need to re-evaluate. I know I take it too far

some

> > times. I

> > > think most people find it mildly annoying from time to time.

> > Perhaps

> > > they

> > > are more annoyed than I admit to myself. I did not realize

you

> > find

> > > it much

> > > more than annoying. I will have to work on this. However, it

is

> > an

> > > ingrained part of my annoying self and will not be easy to

fix. I

> > > don't say

> > > this to make excuses for myself. I am not asking you to

accept

> > something

> > > that bothers you this much. I am only asking for some

patience

> > and

> > > early/firm reminders when I lapse. I will lapse. But I will

make

> > an

> > > effort

> > > to improve over time. And I will stop when you point it out

to

> > me. I'm

> > > glad you said something now instead of waiting until it got

> > unbearable.

> > > Thank you. Very mature. I'm impressed and jealous.

> > >

> > >

> > > Overall, my hope is that this problem (which is 99% pushing

food on

> > > me) is just a bad habit that he can work on, and not some kind

of

> > > indication of overall jerkiness. The guy really, really loves

> > food.

> > > He wants me to enjoy what he's enjoying.

> > >

> > > Usually, he goes out of his way to make sure I am comfortable

and

> > that

> > > I have what I want. He doesn't like me to get up and get him

a

> > glass

> > > of water when he comes over. My light switch wasn't working

so he

> > > went out and bought me one to install himself.

> > >

> > > So I guess only time will tell.

> > >

> > > Thank you all so much, again, for helping me with fleas and

general

> > > learning-how-to-be-safe-and-care-for-myself-ness.

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

You are definitely on your way, honey. Good for you.

Re: Sometimes I think nobody hears me

thanks for that, what a raging hemorrhoidal jerk that guy was.

I think it's true that they can read us, people who have had our

boundaries violated. Predators are always looking for prey. My own

personal belief, which is just for me, is that there is no real

satisfaction in that kind of behavior. It may make them feel good on

the surface if they feel they can dispel negative energy onto a

vulnerable person, but spiritually it is abominable and since I

believe in karma I truly believe it comes back on them.. I think you

reacted just fine. I am finding that I can't change my personality,

and I am trying to accept that I have been violated in some ways

that might be somewhat obvious to predatory people, but that if I am

violated by them in these little ways it is on *them*, spiritually,

not on *me* and that I don't have to let myself be baited into

behaving back towards them in a way that I will feel bad about. I

have always had horrible interactions with mechanics, mechanics and

I are like oil and water. The last two disasterous interactions I've

had with mechanics I tried something different, which was a kind

of " I will not be moved " assertiveness. I can't use physical power,

and I am not a " street-wise " or physically imposing woman, nor do I

have a gift for snappy comebacks, but I can refuse to be moved.

Because in the past I would get nervous and talk a lot and the other

person would pick up on my anxiety. I had a mechanic a few months

ago get my window stuck rolled down, and I stood there and said very

little and just maintained eye contact with them, and for the first

time in my life I could feel the power shift, when I was calm and

unmoved. He started to get uncomfortable with the silence, and

started talking, which lead to his eventually ordering me a new part

for my window, and fixed it. Of course I am just learning this with

strangers, with family I think my learning curve is much slower.

But it is all so alien to me, this assertiveness stuff, because I

thought it was something I had to *do*. I am realizing more and more

that silence, and non-response is much more effective for me anyway,

it's like that line from Sylvia Plath, (paraphrase) " I listen to the

old brag of my heart/ I am....I am...I am... I think before I thought

I had to control people because if someone was an arsehole to me it

said something about *me*. I'm getting to the point of refusing to

believe that anymore, and trying to focus on how I conduct myself in

response to it. People know when they are being jerks and sometimes

you have to give them space and quiet for it to really sink in, or

at least for it to be obvious to bystanders that they are in the

wrong. I'm sure if you could ask that guy's higher self he would be

like 'lady, please don't take me personally, I was being a big jerk

and that has nothing to do with you.'

________________________________________________________________________________\

____

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[Guest guest]

So what is the answer? I want to know too! why aren't " nice " people

drawn to me, or do i reject them?? I'm a nice person as far as I'm

concerned. Doesn't seem to make a difference though. I mean as far as

the boyfriend types are concerned ( I must admit I do have wonderful

friends)

-

> >

> > Your problem is not your problem. Your problem is that the people

> in

> > your life are violating you, and you had to 'not see' this

> behavior in

> > order to maintain a relationship with your mother, and you

> are 'not

> > seeing' it in the people in your life in order to maintain those

> > relationships too. To the problem at hand you need to explain to

> your

> > boyfriend not to do the behavior of bull-dozing you or it will be

> over

> > with. You are better off alone. The act he did during sex was a

> huge

> > violation, to say the least. What an idiot, sorry.

> >

> > With the friend in the car, you were a victim of sexual assault.

> You

> > could have pressed charges. This is a compulsion on his part and

> he is

> > doubtless doing it elsewhere, and thought he'd give it a shot

with

> > you. His compulsion is probably escalating and at some point it

> will

> > most likely get him in trouble with the law. In that instance

what

> you

> > did is 'blaming the victim'...it is relatively common for victims

> of

> > rape and sexual assault to blame themselves, when the situation

> was

> > out of their control from the beginning, as that is part of what

> gives

> > the rapist or perpetrator a rush in the first place, taking away

> > someone's control and violating their sexual boundaries. It makes

> him

> > a perpetrator, which is about HIM and trust me that has nothing

to

> do

> > with you. When he eventually has charges pressed against him and

> goes

> > to jail, they aren't going to ask you to serve his time. This is

> HIS

> > very serious and dangerous problem.

> >

> > Same with your mom, violation of your boundaries. Cat-declawing

is

> a

> > barbaric surgery. There are claw-covers you can get for them now

> that

> > eliminate the scratching. I am glad you stood your ground. In

that

> > relationship is the genesis of your problems, your reluctance to

> see

> > how she violates your wishes and boundaries, and when these

things

> > happen with a parent it gives us a 'blank spot' so that we don't

> see

> > the same characteristics in other people and we keep drawing

these

> > types of folks into our lives. What we need is the ability to

heed

> the

> > red flags, and talking about how you feel about it is the first

> step.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I think anyone would have been upset by this behavior. What a stupid jerk.

Three strategies leap to mind:

1) Calmly point out his behavior. " You are out of line and out of control. If

you do not settle down we will call the manager. " Turn to the clerk and do not

pay any more attention to the Screamer.

If the Dip continues to yell,

2) Get your phone out and tell him you are calling the police because he is

verbally abusing you and you are feeling threatened. You look at the person

behind the counter and tell them you want the manager out in front to deal with

an unreasonable customer. Do not ask them, you tell them " I want the manager out

here now. " If that person is slow to respond let them know that you will begin

telling everyone you know what BAD Customer Service they provide, and based on

your experience you will reccommend that no one use that store. USE those words.

Stores live and die by the way their customers perceive their service, by this

time if the manager is not giving you FREE stuff, you need to shop somewhere

else and you let them know about it. Put it in writing and address it to the

corporate head quarters of the store chain. There WILL be something done.

If your cell phone can take digital images you start recording.. THIS should

shut him up.

If at this time he does not get it and follows you out of the store,

3) It is time to call the police and let them deal with it.

One of the things that never ceases to amaze me is how much your posture plays

into how people treat you. If you walk into a store hunched over and with a

generally weak posture, people will pick up on it. If however, you throw your

shoulders back and point your chin forward you would be surprised by how

" normal " jerks will leave you alone. Take a look at yourself in the mirror and

access your posture. If it is hunched, this may be why predators key in on the

likes of us. A confident stride and a direct look will make you a smaller

target.

I have a suggestion and I hope you do it. Go back to that store. Ask to see the

manager and tell them your experience with this monumental jerk, also tell them

that the person who waited on you DID NOTHING to call this jerk off. Be factual

and not emotional. Don't assess blame, that is the manager's job. Ask the

manager to explain to you their procedure on what to do with unreasonable and

out of control customers who are harassing other customers. Who do you need to

contact to register a complaint about both the customer and the clerk. Take back

control, honey. No one is going to do it for you and you deserve to know how to

protect yourself. Trust me these people have regular training sessions on how to

deliver superior customer service and you did not get that.

Just my opinion. You did not deserve that treatment by either the jerk or the

clerk. Hope this helps.

Sometimes I think nobody hears me

>

> About a year ago, my close friend of over 20 years exposed himself

to

> me while I was driving us back to his shop from the movies. He said

> something like, " Hey, look, I have a tumor on my leg " and I looked

> and there he was. This was a 15 minute drive, maybe, and I told him

> " no " and " I'm not interested " and " put it away " about, oh, 50 times

or

> more.

>

> I remained very calm and did not look at him again, but he kept

> insisting I look and would not listen to my repeated assertions of

> disinterest. I thought of *yelling* at him, but I have a huge

> aversion to yelling, due to being yelled at by both my parents many

> times when it was not called for, just very out of proportion

yelling.

>

> When we reached his shop I told him over and over to " get the fuck

out

> of my car " and he would not. Then he grabbed my breast and at this

> point I pushed him off but was too afraid to hit him, as he seemed

to

> be in a " zone " where he just *had to* get what he wanted, and I

feared

> he would hurt me. He had never exposed himself to me before, and I

> believe he has always had severe sexual problems/issues stemming

from

> being molested.

>

> He finally got out of my car and I never spoke to him again. He did

> leave me a message an hour later saying he was " kind of a dick " , so

he

> got that he went overboard but I don't think he knew how bad it was.

>

> So it felt *familiar* and it took me some months to realize that the

> first person who didn't hear me was my nada. Like when I had to go

to

> the bathroom and she wouldn't take me until I crapped my pants. Or

> when my period was so painful and she wouldn't take me to the doctor

> and I had endometriosis.

>

> Or the most bizarre one, when she wanted to declaw my cat when I was

> 29 and living at home again for 6 weeks while I bought a house.. No

> amount of saying no would get through to her. She got this glazed,

> happy look as she mumbled to herself over and over again " I'll do it

> while you're on your trip, I'll pay for it, you'll never know it

> happened. " In this case, I finally told her that if she did it, I

> would never speak to her again. Of course, the next day I was

> punished by her crying all day that I loved *a cat* more than I

loved

> my *own mother*.

>

> Both with the assault and this cat instance, I continually asked

> myself, " WHY is this person not hearing me? What did I do wrong that

> they could not understand? Am I saying no wrong? " I know now that I

> should have *screamed* with this " friend " and even pulled over the

> car, told him to get out or I would call 911.

>

> I fear crossing over into crazy screaming nada-land, and I also

don't

> think a person should *have to* yell to be heard.

>

> So......as usual, I wonder if *normal* people have this problem and

I

> don't know why I want to ask you all, because you know as little

about

> normal as I do.

>

> My new boyfriend, who is so considerate in so many ways, ways that

are

> surprising, has a problem with pushing me.

>

> Mainly it's with food, and I've told him a few times already that

when

> I say no the first time, I would like him to not ask me again. But

he

> keeps asking. One time he brought me to a vegetarian restaurant and

I

> ordered a salad. I know I had a lot more choices than normal there,

> but I was *in the mood* for a salad. This really bothered him and I

> did confess to him that I had eaten too much at lunch and needed to

> eat something light now. He kept pushing that there were all these

> other options and he wanted me to try this food and I began to feel

> backed against a wall.

>

> Recently (sorry to be so direct here) it happened in bed. I climaxed

> really soon. He felt like it was too soon and wanted me to really

> enjoy myself again. I said I was fine and didn't want to. He tried

> to stimulate me anyway. I said, " what are you doing? " and he said

> " women are multi-orgasmic " and I said, " I don't want to " but he

tried

> some more.

>

> Now, there was a time when I would not take no for an answer with

> people on occasion but I learned to stop doing it.

>

> My problem is, it seems like I have said many times like with the

food

> that I only wish to say no once. This is reasonable, right? I

> shouldn't have to keep saying no. It's reaching a point where I feel

> like I might blow up eventually, and I don't want to do that.

>

> It just feels like sometimes people don't listen to me and I don't

> know HOW to say " stop doing this " without yelling, as when I say it

> softly, people don't seem to listen.

>

> Has anyone else experienced this?

>

> -Deanna

>

>

>

>

>

>

____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

____________ __

> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.

> http://www.yahoo. com/r/hs

>

>

[Guest guest]

spot on

Sometimes I think nobody hears me

>

> About a year ago, my close friend of over 20 years exposed himself

to

> me while I was driving us back to his shop from the movies. He said

> something like, " Hey, look, I have a tumor on my leg " and I looked

> and there he was. This was a 15 minute drive, maybe, and I told him

> " no " and " I'm not interested " and " put it away " about, oh, 50 times

or

> more.

>

> I remained very calm and did not look at him again, but he kept

> insisting I look and would not listen to my repeated assertions of

> disinterest. I thought of *yelling* at him, but I have a huge

> aversion to yelling, due to being yelled at by both my parents many

> times when it was not called for, just very out of proportion

yelling.

>

> When we reached his shop I told him over and over to " get the fuck

out

> of my car " and he would not. Then he grabbed my breast and at this

> point I pushed him off but was too afraid to hit him, as he seemed

to

> be in a " zone " where he just *had to* get what he wanted, and I

feared

> he would hurt me. He had never exposed himself to me before, and I

> believe he has always had severe sexual problems/issues stemming

from

> being molested.

>

> He finally got out of my car and I never spoke to him again. He did

> leave me a message an hour later saying he was " kind of a dick " , so

he

> got that he went overboard but I don't think he knew how bad it was.

>

> So it felt *familiar* and it took me some months to realize that the

> first person who didn't hear me was my nada. Like when I had to go

to

> the bathroom and she wouldn't take me until I crapped my pants. Or

> when my period was so painful and she wouldn't take me to the doctor

> and I had endometriosis.

>

> Or the most bizarre one, when she wanted to declaw my cat when I was

> 29 and living at home again for 6 weeks while I bought a house. No

> amount of saying no would get through to her. She got this glazed,

> happy look as she mumbled to herself over and over again " I'll do it

> while you're on your trip, I'll pay for it, you'll never know it

> happened. " In this case, I finally told her that if she did it, I

> would never speak to her again. Of course, the next day I was

> punished by her crying all day that I loved *a cat* more than I

loved

> my *own mother*.

>

> Both with the assault and this cat instance, I continually asked

> myself, " WHY is this person not hearing me? What did I do wrong that

> they could not understand? Am I saying no wrong? " I know now that I

> should have *screamed* with this " friend " and even pulled over the

> car, told him to get out or I would call 911.

>

> I fear crossing over into crazy screaming nada-land, and I also

don't

> think a person should *have to* yell to be heard.

>

> So......as usual, I wonder if *normal* people have this problem and

I

> don't know why I want to ask you all, because you know as little

about

> normal as I do.

>

> My new boyfriend, who is so considerate in so many ways, ways that

are

> surprising, has a problem with pushing me.

>

> Mainly it's with food, and I've told him a few times already that

when

> I say no the first time, I would like him to not ask me again. But

he

> keeps asking. One time he brought me to a vegetarian restaurant and

I

> ordered a salad. I know I had a lot more choices than normal there,

> but I was *in the mood* for a salad. This really bothered him and I

> did confess to him that I had eaten too much at lunch and needed to

> eat something light now. He kept pushing that there were all these

> other options and he wanted me to try this food and I began to feel

> backed against a wall.

>

> Recently (sorry to be so direct here) it happened in bed. I climaxed

> really soon. He felt like it was too soon and wanted me to really

> enjoy myself again. I said I was fine and didn't want to. He tried

> to stimulate me anyway. I said, " what are you doing? " and he said

> " women are multi-orgasmic " and I said, " I don't want to " but he

tried

> some more.

>

> Now, there was a time when I would not take no for an answer with

> people on occasion but I learned to stop doing it.

>

> My problem is, it seems like I have said many times like with the

food

> that I only wish to say no once. This is reasonable, right? I

> shouldn't have to keep saying no. It's reaching a point where I feel

> like I might blow up eventually, and I don't want to do that.

>

> It just feels like sometimes people don't listen to me and I don't

> know HOW to say " stop doing this " without yelling, as when I say it

> softly, people don't seem to listen.

>

> Has anyone else experienced this?

>

> -Deanna

>

>

>

>

>

>

____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

____________ __

> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.

> http://www.yahoo. com/r/hs

>

>

[Guest guest]

I think on some levels we sift through people and hook up with the ones who are

most familar even if it is in a bad way. When you are with someone who is

" normal " that is out of your depth of experience and oddly enough out of your

comfort zone!!???? It is odd beyond words, but I think that some of us get

something out of being hurt. It is as if we cannot accept genuine and

appropriate realtionships because they would deprive us of the " excuse " of

failure. Attracting the BPD gives some of us an out. It is twisted and

unfortunately too true. I think the reason I cannot let go of my weight is that

it fills a need, so that when I fail I have something to blame the failure on. I

didn't get the job because I was fat, I didn't do well on an exam because I was

fat, nobody likes me and I have no friends because I am fat. I have a lot of

work to do to undo this line of thinking because it is all BS. I didn't get the

job because I was competing with 400 other

applicants, I didn't do well on an exam because I couldn't remember the right

information in time, I don't have friends because I don't seek friends out.

I met someone tonight who had lost 100 lbs and she looked FABULOUS. Took her 3

years to take it off. By damn if she could do it, then so can I. I just don't

want to work at it for 3 years. Just another hang up, just another excuse. At

least I recognize it for what it is. Now I can work on it.

Be strong

Re: Sometimes I think nobody hears me

So what is the answer? I want to know too! why aren't " nice " people

drawn to me, or do i reject them?? I'm a nice person as far as I'm

concerned. Doesn't seem to make a difference though. I mean as far as

the boyfriend types are concerned ( I must admit I do have wonderful

friends)

-

> >

> > Your problem is not your problem. Your problem is that the people

> in

> > your life are violating you, and you had to 'not see' this

> behavior in

> > order to maintain a relationship with your mother, and you

> are 'not

> > seeing' it in the people in your life in order to maintain those

> > relationships too. To the problem at hand you need to explain to

> your

> > boyfriend not to do the behavior of bull-dozing you or it will be

> over

> > with. You are better off alone. The act he did during sex was a

> huge

> > violation, to say the least. What an idiot, sorry.

> >

> > With the friend in the car, you were a victim of sexual assault.

> You

> > could have pressed charges. This is a compulsion on his part and

> he is

> > doubtless doing it elsewhere, and thought he'd give it a shot

with

> > you. His compulsion is probably escalating and at some point it

> will

> > most likely get him in trouble with the law. In that instance

what

> you

> > did is 'blaming the victim'...it is relatively common for victims

> of

> > rape and sexual assault to blame themselves, when the situation

> was

> > out of their control from the beginning, as that is part of what

> gives

> > the rapist or perpetrator a rush in the first place, taking away

> > someone's control and violating their sexual boundaries. It makes

> him

> > a perpetrator, which is about HIM and trust me that has nothing

to

> do

> > with you. When he eventually has charges pressed against him and

> goes

> > to jail, they aren't going to ask you to serve his time. This is

> HIS

> > very serious and dangerous problem.

> >

> > Same with your mom, violation of your boundaries. Cat-declawing

is

> a

> > barbaric surgery. There are claw-covers you can get for them now

> that

> > eliminate the scratching. I am glad you stood your ground. In

that

> > relationship is the genesis of your problems, your reluctance to

> see

> > how she violates your wishes and boundaries, and when these

things

> > happen with a parent it gives us a 'blank spot' so that we don't

> see

> > the same characteristics in other people and we keep drawing

these

> > types of folks into our lives. What we need is the ability to

heed

> the

> > red flags, and talking about how you feel about it is the first

> step.

> >

>

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[Guest guest]

I agree about going back to the store. It is very possible that

happened is on video tape. I worked in a grocery store bakery and

while I was there one of the employees said he'd fallen in the store

and hurt his back. They replayed the video in the section where he

said he fell and proved him wrong. Also they have video in the aisles

to protect themselves from lawsuits; I saw a video the other night of

a woman who poured cooking oil on the floor in a grocery store aisle

and then pretended to slip and fall in it. It's possible they might

have cameras in the parking lot too, you never know. That man should

be banned from the store.