Guest guest Posted September 22, 2006 Report Share Posted September 22, 2006 In a message dated 9/22/2006 1:15:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, linnmiller@... writes: > The chemical make-up of Prometrium doesn't match exactly the chemical > make-up of progesterone though. It was my understanding that a > patent cannot be given unless the product is slightly altered. > Prometrium also lists some side effects similar to synthetic > progesterone. > > Linn > > You know, Linn, this is something that i've always had questions about, despite all the times that i've read that it's completely bio- identical. What you say does make sense to me, unfortunately. I'm going to look into this further. . . . When i first joined the NTH group last December, i remember reading a thread concerning T3 and the alterations invovled in patenting Cytomel. Was that you who was providing some of those posts about the chemical drug structure? In the case of Armour, there is no patent, correct? What does this mean as far as marketing goes? Profits? And what about adrenal support? If what you're saying is true, then is something like Cortef really not bio-identical? That's a little scary to me. Hollis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2006 Report Share Posted September 22, 2006 The product can be slightly altered by adding different fillers or components. The chemical make up of the progesterone used in Prometrium, is identical to the human progesterone hormone. It is engineered to be identical even if it is not identical in wild yams, by the time the lab is done with it, it will be bioidentical to human progesterone, in order to qualify for FDA approval as a bioidentical hormone. Like the growth hormone I use is bioidentical to human growth hormone. Growth hormone used to be natural and unsynthesized in that it came from human cadavers. Unfortunately it also contained the deadly neurological disorder similar to mad cow disease. The company got sued and developed recombinant DNA produced bioidentical growth hormone. Several companies have patents on this due to adding an amino acid at the end of the chemical compound, that was inactive. To me this is silly to mess with a chemical structure but organically, it is 181 amino acids in exactly the same configuration as human growth hormone. There must be 8 companies that have patents on bioidentical growth hormone but the hormone is identical in all companies except for this non active extra amino acid or two. How they accomplish this, I do not know. I have used 3 different brands of growth hormone and they all worked the same. Growth hormone manufacturers play another little patent game. Using the same hormone but suspending it in a different liquid. One company provides sterile water, another company provides water with some kind of additive in it that I cannot recall. Even sterile water has additives. Another difference with growth hormone manufacturing of the bioidentical hormone is that some companies use pig cells and reprogram the cell's DNA to make growth hormone. Some companies use bacteria and reprogram the bacteria to make the growth hormone. This was explained to me by my endocrinologist, who used to work in research at a pharma company so I might not have all the details correct. There was no natural progesterone pill that had a patent................... ...until Prometrium. It cannot be called bioidentical unless it is the same chemical configuration of human progesterone. So if it were not the same bioidentical molecule, it would be false advertising and not marketed as bioidentical. Used to, one could only get the bioidentical progesterone, at a compounding pharmacy. Women who had bad reactions to synthetic progesterones from horse urine, could instead get the bioidentical hormone compounded for a huge price. The drug company that markets Prometrium got smart and marketed this adding peanut oil or coconut oil. Horse urine derived-hormones had contaminants and other forms of estrogens or progestins, that did not occur in humans, which makes them not bioidentical. -- Re: Prometrium The chemical make-up of Prometrium doesn't match exactly the chemical make-up of progesterone though. It was my understanding that a patent cannot be given unless the product is slightly altered. Prometrium also lists some side effects similar to synthetic progesterone. Linn > In a message dated 9/22/2006 8:25:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > linnmiller@... writes: > > > > > Prometrium is a synthetic progesterone. > > > , > > Technically, Linn is right: Bio-identical does not always equal > " natural " -- as in naturally occuring in nature. Prometrium > IS synthetic, made in a lab. But, while it's not " natural, " the > end result IS bio-identical to the hormone that the body > naturally produces. The semantics of differentiating between > the terms " synthetic, " " natural, " and " bio-identical " can get > very confusing! For example, Premarin, derived from mare's > urine is completely " natural, " but certainly NOT bio-identical > to any hormone a female human produces. > >> . > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2006 Report Share Posted September 22, 2006 You'd have to ask for the manufacturer's fine print when you get your prescription filled. They don't automatically give it out anymore. I have to run out right now, but I'll look for the info I found when I get back. There's always a chemical make-up included in the fine print. If you compare that to the chemical make-up of progesterone, it is not identical. Linn On Sep 22, 2006, at 12:13 PM, C. Mannelli, Ed.D. wrote: > I would be interested in seeing where you looked this up. I would > like to > see the chemical make up you are referring to. > > > Here is the following source: http://www.obgyn.net/women/women > asp?page=/industry/articles/980107_solvay > > PROMETRIUM Capsules is a natural micronized progesterone that is > identical > in chemical structure to endogenous (naturally occurring) > progesterone, and > thus should mimic the hormone that women produce naturally. It is > currently > under review by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA), and has > received an > approvable letter from the agency for the treatment of secondary > amenorrhea. > Unlike progestins (synthetic forms of progesterone), PROMETRIUM > Capsules, > when approved, will be the only oral progesterone available in the > U.S. > PROMETRIUM Capsules are intended to be taken orally, once-a-day > with the > evening meal. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2006 Report Share Posted September 22, 2006 Then we should sue the company for false advertising, since they clearly advertise that it is bioidentical, lol! I do have the full print out from the manufacturer.......................... ....... -- Re: Prometrium You'd have to ask for the manufacturer's fine print when you get your prescription filled. They don't automatically give it out anymore. I have to run out right now, but I'll look for the info I found when I get back. There's always a chemical make-up included in the fine print. If you compare that to the chemical make-up of progesterone, it is not identical. Linn On Sep 22, 2006, at 12:13 PM, C. Mannelli, Ed.D. wrote: > I would be interested in seeing where you looked this up. I would > like to > see the chemical make up you are referring to. > > > Here is the following source: http://www.obgyn.net/women/women > asp?page=/industry/articles/980107_solvay > > PROMETRIUM Capsules is a natural micronized progesterone that is > identical > in chemical structure to endogenous (naturally occurring) > progesterone, and > thus should mimic the hormone that women produce naturally. It is > currently > under review by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA), and has > received an > approvable letter from the agency for the treatment of secondary > amenorrhea. > Unlike progestins (synthetic forms of progesterone), PROMETRIUM > Capsules, > when approved, will be the only oral progesterone available in the > U.S. > PROMETRIUM Capsules are intended to be taken orally, once-a-day > with the > evening meal. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2006 Report Share Posted September 22, 2006 It IS bioidentical. See my other post about it, hopefully it will clear all this up. Happy Birthday Linn! Hope you have a great one! --- " C. Mannelli, Ed.D. " wrote: > Then we should sue the company for false > advertising, since they clearly > advertise that it is bioidentical, lol! > > I do have the full print out from the > manufacturer.......................... > ...... > > -- Re: Prometrium > > You'd have to ask for the manufacturer's fine print > when you get your > prescription filled. They don't automatically give > it out anymore. > I have to run out right now, but I'll look for the > info I found when > I get back. There's always a chemical make-up > included in the fine > print. If you compare that to the chemical make-up > of progesterone, > it is not identical. > > Linn > > On Sep 22, 2006, at 12:13 PM, C. Mannelli, > Ed.D. wrote: > > > I would be interested in seeing where you looked > this up. I would > > like to > > see the chemical make up you are referring to. > > > > > > Here is the following source: > http://www.obgyn.net/women/women > > asp?page=/industry/articles/980107_solvay > > > > PROMETRIUM Capsules is a natural micronized > progesterone that is > > identical > > in chemical structure to endogenous (naturally > occurring) > > progesterone, and > > thus should mimic the hormone that women produce > naturally. It is > > currently > > under review by the Food and Drug Administration > (FDA), and has > > received an > > approvable letter from the agency for the > treatment of secondary > > amenorrhea. > > Unlike progestins (synthetic forms of > progesterone), PROMETRIUM > > Capsules, > > when approved, will be the only oral progesterone > available in the > > U.S. > > PROMETRIUM Capsules are intended to be taken > orally, once-a-day > > with the > > evening meal. __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2006 Report Share Posted September 22, 2006 I know!! I have said that all along!!!! I agree it is bioidentical. I never thought it was not. ; ) -- Re: Prometrium > > You'd have to ask for the manufacturer's fine print > when you get your > prescription filled. They don't automatically give > it out anymore. > I have to run out right now, but I'll look for the > info I found when > I get back. There's always a chemical make-up > included in the fine > print. If you compare that to the chemical make-up > of progesterone, > it is not identical. > > Linn > > On Sep 22, 2006, at 12:13 PM, C. Mannelli, > Ed.D. wrote: > > > I would be interested in seeing where you looked > this up. I would > > like to > > see the chemical make up you are referring to. > > > > > > Here is the following source: > http://www.obgyn.net/women/women > > asp?page=/industry/articles/980107_solvay > > > > PROMETRIUM Capsules is a natural micronized > progesterone that is > > identical > > in chemical structure to endogenous (naturally > occurring) > > progesterone, and > > thus should mimic the hormone that women produce > naturally. It is > > currently > > under review by the Food and Drug Administration > (FDA), and has > > received an > > approvable letter from the agency for the > treatment of secondary > > amenorrhea. > > Unlike progestins (synthetic forms of > progesterone), PROMETRIUM > > Capsules, > > when approved, will be the only oral progesterone > available in the > > U.S. > > PROMETRIUM Capsules are intended to be taken > orally, once-a-day > > with the > > evening meal. __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2006 Report Share Posted September 22, 2006 If you look up the chemical structure of human progesterone and compare it with the chemical structure of Prometrium, they are not the same. There are also other ingredients in Prometrium. I've found this numerous times in looking up info. I don't know how they explain it, but you can look it up and see for yourself. No, it wasn't me on the Cytomel. I haven't looked up the Cortef, but it wouldn't surprise me to find that it's not identical. Patents only last for a certain number of years (not sure anymore how long that is but I think it used be around 18 - 20 years). As long as a manufacturer has the patent no others can financially benefit, once the patent expires other manufacturers, usually generics step in and can financially profit also, that's when you see the cost drastically reduce and usually the old manufacturer comes out with a new and better product, i.e. just about the time Prilosec's patent ran out they introduced Nexium. Linn This info is from a link at What are the risks associated with PROMETRIUM Capsules? * Risk to the Fetus: Rare cases of cleft palate, cleft lip, and congenital heart defects have been reported in the infants of women using PROMETRIUM Capsules during early pregnancy. Although it is not clear that these events were drug related, you should check with your healthcare provider about the risks to your unborn child of any medication taken during pregnancy. * Abnormal Blood Clotting: Use of progestational drugs has been associated with changes in the blood-clotting system. These changes allow the blood to clot more easily, possibly allowing clots to form in the bloodstream. If blood clots do form in your bloodstream, they can cut off the blood supply to vital organs, causing serious problems. These problems may include a stroke (by cutting off blood to part of the brain), a heart attack (by cutting off blood to part of the heart), a pulmonary embolus (by cutting off blood to part of the lungs), visual loss or blindness (by cutting off blood vessels in the eye), or other problems. Any of these conditions may cause death or serious longterm disability. Call your healthcare provider immediately if you suspect you have any of these conditions. He or she may advise you to stop using this drug. * Eye Abnormalities: Discontinue medication and call your healthcare provider immediately if you experience sudden partial or complete loss of vision, blurred vision, or sudden onset of bulging eyes, double vision, or migraine. What are the possible side effects of PROMETRIUM Capsules? Consult your healthcare provider if you experience any of the side effects mentioned below or other side effects. SIDE EFFECTS REPORTED IN STUDIES OF PATIENTS AT DOSES OF 100 MG/DAY to 400 MG/DAY: Blood and Lymphatic System: swelling of the lymph nodes Cardiovascular System: high blood pressure, hot flashes, pounding or racing of the heart Digestive System: bloating, constipation, diarrhea, dry mouth, heartburn, indigestion, nausea/vomiting General Disorders: abdominal pain (cramping), back pain, chest pain, fatigue, fever, fluid retention, headache, intestinal pain, stomach pain, swelling, swelling of the legs and arms Infections: bronchitis, fungal vaginal infection, infections, inflammation of the vagina, upper respiratory tract infection, urinary tract infection, viral infection Musculoskeletal System: arthritis, joint pain, muscle or bone pain, leg cramps, muscle cramps Nervous/Psychiatric System: anxiety, confusion, decreased concentration, depression, dizziness*, drowsiness*, irritability, mood swings, personality disorder, sleep disorder, worry Respiratory System: coughing, fluid in sinus cavities, nasal congestion, sore throat, fluid in the lungs Reproductive System: breast pain, breast tenderness, vaginal discharge, vaginal dryness, uterine fibroid Skin: acne, night sweats Eyes: blurred vision Kidney and Urinary System: urinary problems * Use caution when driving a motor vehicle or operating machinery as dizziness or drowsiness may occur. During the marketing of PROMETRIUM Capsules, other adverse events have been reported, including reversible cases of liver problems, particularly in patients taking high doses. Additionally, rare occurrences of fainting and/or low blood pressure have also been reported. These are some of the warning signs of serious side effects: Be alert for unusual signs and symptoms. If any of these warning signals (or any other unusual symptoms) happen while you are using PROMETRIUM Capsules, call your healthcare provider immediately: * Breast lumps (Ask your healthcare provider to show you how to examine your breasts monthly.) * Pain, swelling, or tenderness in the abdomen * Tremors or seizures, migraine headaches, shortness of breath or asthma, heart problems, or kidney problems * Abnormal bleeding from the vagina * Feelings of depression * Pains in the calves or chest; a sudden shortness of breath; or coughing blood, indicating possible clots in the legs, heart or lungs * Severe headache, vomiting, dizziness, faintness, or changes in vision or speech; weakness or numbness in an arm or leg, indicating possible clots in the brain or eye General information about safe and effective use of PROMETRIUM Capsules * Medicines are sometimes prescribed for conditions that are not mentioned in patient information leaflets. Do not take PROMETRIUM Capsules for conditions for which it was not prescribed. * Your healthcare provider has prescribed this drug for you and you alone. Do not give PROMETRIUM Capsules to other people, even if they have the same symptoms you have. It may harm them. * PROMETRIUM Capsules should be taken as a single daily dose at bedtime. Some women may experience extreme dizziness and/or drowsiness during initial therapy. In a small percentage of women, these effects may be increased including blurred vision, difficulty speaking, difficulty walking, and feeling abnormal. If you experience these symptoms, discuss them with your healthcare provider immediately. A single bedtime dose may reduce the impact of these symptoms. * Use caution when driving a motor vehicle or operating machinery as dizziness or drowsiness may occur. Keep PROMETRIUM Capsules out of the reach of children. This leaflet provides a summary of the most important information about PROMETRIUM Capsules. If you would like more information, talk with your healthcare provider or pharmacist. You can ask for information about PROMETRIUM Capsules that is written for health professionals. You can get more information by calling the toll free number 1-. What are the ingredients in PROMETRIUM Capsules? Active ingredient: 100 mg or 200 mg micronized progesterone The inactive ingredients for PROMETRIUM Capsules 100 mg include: peanut oil NF, gelatin NF, glycerin USP, lecithin NF, titanium dioxide USP, D & C Yellow No. 10, and FD & C Red No. 40. The inactive ingredients for PROMETRIUM Capsules 200 mg include: peanut oil NF, gelatin NF, glycerin USP, lecithin NF, titanium dioxide USP, D & C Yellow No. 10, and FD & C Yellow No. > In a message dated 9/22/2006 1:15:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > linnmiller@... writes: > > > The chemical make-up of Prometrium doesn't match exactly the > chemical > > make-up of progesterone though. It was my understanding that a > > patent cannot be given unless the product is slightly altered. > > Prometrium also lists some side effects similar to synthetic > > progesterone. > > > > Linn > > > > > > You know, Linn, this is something that i've always had questions > about, despite all the times that i've read that it's completely bio- > identical. What you say does make sense to me, unfortunately. > I'm going to look into this further. . . . When i first joined the NTH > group last December, i remember reading a thread concerning T3 > and the alterations invovled in patenting Cytomel. Was that you > who was providing some of those posts about the chemical drug > structure? > > In the case of Armour, there is no patent, correct? What does this > mean as far as marketing goes? Profits? And what about adrenal > support? If what you're saying is true, then is something like Cortef > really not bio-identical? That's a little scary to me. > > Hollis > > . > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2006 Report Share Posted September 22, 2006 Thanks, I've decided to call it the 21st anniversary of my 29th birthday instead!!! Linn > It IS bioidentical. See my other post about it, > hopefully it will clear all this up. > > Happy Birthday Linn! Hope you have a great one! > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2006 Report Share Posted September 22, 2006 I have looked it up, as I said in previous posts. There are many metabolites of progesterone and I am convinced the progesterone they are making, is as identical as any can claim, with our present knowledge. But Prometrium is bioidentical to ovarian progesterone in humans. In regard to the side effects, it has not been on the market long enough to show these side effects, and the side effects you posted are general side effects from synthetic horse urine-made progestins. It is like the side effects that you can read about hydrocortisone. The warnings are for huge amounts of HC that are not generally usedbut they still post those side effects and warnings even if you take a minimal amount of HC for a day or two. That is how they cover their butts from law suits. I understand you are convinced that it is not identical. I am convinced it is as bioidentical as we are capable of producing in a lab right now. I also do not like the fact that my growth hormone is said to be bioidentical even tho it is identical to human growth hormone, 181 atoms and all. But one type is made by bacteria and another type is made from pig cells. There is not alternative at this time so we can only use what we hope is bioidentical.......................... In the future, we may see that anything synthesized in a lab still carries micro remnants of where it came from, like Vit C being made from corn may still possess some remnants of corn so if you are allergic to corn, you may have a reaction to C made from corn but not to Vit C made from potatoes. From your definition nothing is capable of being made bioidentical. But like growth hormone, there are a set number of carbons, hydrogens, in a particular configuration, that can be seen in the lab and mimicked to show the same hormone configuration and structure, making it bioidentical. To detect some hidden aspect that is not detected at this time, we cannot say anything is identical. -- Re: Prometrium If you look up the chemical structure of human progesterone and compare it with the chemical structure of Prometrium, they are not the same. There are also other ingredients in Prometrium. I've found this numerous times in looking up info. I don't know how they explain it, but you can look it up and see for yourself. No, it wasn't me on the Cytomel. I haven't looked up the Cortef, but it wouldn't surprise me to find that it's not identical. Patents only last for a certain number of years (not sure anymore how long that is but I think it used be around 18 - 20 years). As long as a manufacturer has the patent no others can financially benefit, once the patent expires other manufacturers, usually generics step in and can financially profit also, that's when you see the cost drastically reduce and usually the old manufacturer comes out with a new and better product, i.e. just about the time Prilosec's patent ran out they introduced Nexium. Linn This info is from a link at What are the risks associated with PROMETRIUM Capsules? * Risk to the Fetus: Rare cases of cleft palate, cleft lip, and congenital heart defects have been reported in the infants of women using PROMETRIUM Capsules during early pregnancy. Although it is not clear that these events were drug related, you should check with your healthcare provider about the risks to your unborn child of any medication taken during pregnancy. * Abnormal Blood Clotting: Use of progestational drugs has been associated with changes in the blood-clotting system. These changes allow the blood to clot more easily, possibly allowing clots to form in the bloodstream. If blood clots do form in your bloodstream, they can cut off the blood supply to vital organs, causing serious problems. These problems may include a stroke (by cutting off blood to part of the brain), a heart attack (by cutting off blood to part of the heart), a pulmonary embolus (by cutting off blood to part of the lungs), visual loss or blindness (by cutting off blood vessels in the eye), or other problems. Any of these conditions may cause death or serious longterm disability. Call your healthcare provider immediately if you suspect you have any of these conditions. He or she may advise you to stop using this drug. * Eye Abnormalities: Discontinue medication and call your healthcare provider immediately if you experience sudden partial or complete loss of vision, blurred vision, or sudden onset of bulging eyes, double vision, or migraine. What are the possible side effects of PROMETRIUM Capsules? Consult your healthcare provider if you experience any of the side effects mentioned below or other side effects. SIDE EFFECTS REPORTED IN STUDIES OF PATIENTS AT DOSES OF 100 MG/DAY to 400 MG/DAY: Blood and Lymphatic System: swelling of the lymph nodes Cardiovascular System: high blood pressure, hot flashes, pounding or racing of the heart Digestive System: bloating, constipation, diarrhea, dry mouth, heartburn, indigestion, nausea/vomiting General Disorders: abdominal pain (cramping), back pain, chest pain, fatigue, fever, fluid retention, headache, intestinal pain, stomach pain, swelling, swelling of the legs and arms Infections: bronchitis, fungal vaginal infection, infections, inflammation of the vagina, upper respiratory tract infection, urinary tract infection, viral infection Musculoskeletal System: arthritis, joint pain, muscle or bone pain, leg cramps, muscle cramps Nervous/Psychiatric System: anxiety, confusion, decreased concentration, depression, dizziness*, drowsiness*, irritability, mood swings, personality disorder, sleep disorder, worry Respiratory System: coughing, fluid in sinus cavities, nasal congestion, sore throat, fluid in the lungs Reproductive System: breast pain, breast tenderness, vaginal discharge, vaginal dryness, uterine fibroid Skin: acne, night sweats Eyes: blurred vision Kidney and Urinary System: urinary problems * Use caution when driving a motor vehicle or operating machinery as dizziness or drowsiness may occur. During the marketing of PROMETRIUM Capsules, other adverse events have been reported, including reversible cases of liver problems, particularly in patients taking high doses. Additionally, rare occurrences of fainting and/or low blood pressure have also been reported. These are some of the warning signs of serious side effects: Be alert for unusual signs and symptoms. If any of these warning signals (or any other unusual symptoms) happen while you are using PROMETRIUM Capsules, call your healthcare provider immediately: * Breast lumps (Ask your healthcare provider to show you how to examine your breasts monthly.) * Pain, swelling, or tenderness in the abdomen * Tremors or seizures, migraine headaches, shortness of breath or asthma, heart problems, or kidney problems * Abnormal bleeding from the vagina * Feelings of depression * Pains in the calves or chest; a sudden shortness of breath; or coughing blood, indicating possible clots in the legs, heart or lungs * Severe headache, vomiting, dizziness, faintness, or changes in vision or speech; weakness or numbness in an arm or leg, indicating possible clots in the brain or eye General information about safe and effective use of PROMETRIUM Capsules * Medicines are sometimes prescribed for conditions that are not mentioned in patient information leaflets. Do not take PROMETRIUM Capsules for conditions for which it was not prescribed. * Your healthcare provider has prescribed this drug for you and you alone. Do not give PROMETRIUM Capsules to other people, even if they have the same symptoms you have. It may harm them. * PROMETRIUM Capsules should be taken as a single daily dose at bedtime. Some women may experience extreme dizziness and/or drowsiness during initial therapy. In a small percentage of women, these effects may be increased including blurred vision, difficulty speaking, difficulty walking, and feeling abnormal. If you experience these symptoms, discuss them with your healthcare provider immediately. A single bedtime dose may reduce the impact of these symptoms. * Use caution when driving a motor vehicle or operating machinery as dizziness or drowsiness may occur. Keep PROMETRIUM Capsules out of the reach of children. This leaflet provides a summary of the most important information about PROMETRIUM Capsules. If you would like more information, talk with your healthcare provider or pharmacist. You can ask for information about PROMETRIUM Capsules that is written for health professionals. You can get more information by calling the toll free number 1-. What are the ingredients in PROMETRIUM Capsules? Active ingredient: 100 mg or 200 mg micronized progesterone The inactive ingredients for PROMETRIUM Capsules 100 mg include: peanut oil NF, gelatin NF, glycerin USP, lecithin NF, titanium dioxide USP, D & C Yellow No. 10, and FD & C Red No. 40. The inactive ingredients for PROMETRIUM Capsules 200 mg include: peanut oil NF, gelatin NF, glycerin USP, lecithin NF, titanium dioxide USP, D & C Yellow No. 10, and FD & C Yellow No. > In a message dated 9/22/2006 1:15:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > linnmiller@... writes: > > > The chemical make-up of Prometrium doesn't match exactly the > chemical > > make-up of progesterone though. It was my understanding that a > > patent cannot be given unless the product is slightly altered. > > Prometrium also lists some side effects similar to synthetic > > progesterone. > > > > Linn > > > > > > You know, Linn, this is something that i've always had questions > about, despite all the times that i've read that it's completely bio- > identical. What you say does make sense to me, unfortunately. > I'm going to look into this further. . . . When i first joined the NTH > group last December, i remember reading a thread concerning T3 > and the alterations invovled in patenting Cytomel. Was that you > who was providing some of those posts about the chemical drug > structure? > > In the case of Armour, there is no patent, correct? What does this > mean as far as marketing goes? Profits? And what about adrenal > support? If what you're saying is true, then is something like Cortef > really not bio-identical? That's a little scary to me. > > Hollis > > . > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2006 Report Share Posted September 22, 2006 LOLOL! I had to look twice at that one! lolol good one. :-) --- Linn wrote: > Thanks, I've decided to call it the 21st anniversary > of my 29th > birthday instead!!! > > Linn > > > > > It IS bioidentical. See my other post about it, > > hopefully it will clear all this up. > > > > Happy Birthday Linn! Hope you have a great one! > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2006 Report Share Posted September 22, 2006 Perhaps the picture of the chemical structure of what you viewed, was of another of the progestogens? If you cannot post both pics for us to see, all I can go by is what I see on-line or in my biochem book. What I compared on-line has the same number of carbons, hydrogens, same double-bonded oxygens, but some of the bonds were not drawn in on one picture, but were drawn on another. I taught organic chem for 9 years at Texas A & M. I am not saying this to one-up. I am saying it cause I can tell from a picture if both compounds are identical. but only to a point. Isomers look identical but are not identical in action. Mirror image isomers may not look identical if they are not superimposed and flopped in position but may be very similar in action or one isomer may be completely inactive. But one cannot tell by looking at them particularly if the drawings are done stick as opposed to dot. All I can go by is the literature, which states it is bioidentical. I do acknowledge that labs may think they are making bioidentical but really not be. But at this time, this is all we know and I myself cannot analyze with the info available, if the makers are lying or not. I also know that T3 is said to be 'bioidentical'. Val has made some comments to me about the T3 SR that I don't understand as of yet. But all the sources say the same so far. http://www.3dchem.com/molecules.asp?id=248 Look at this interesting stuff about progesterone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2006 Report Share Posted September 22, 2006 Oh sorry! My mistake . I thought your remark about suing indicated you were agreeing that it wasn't bio-id. Now I understand it was just a point you were making - my brain is a bit tired the last two days so I didn't catch that the first time. Sorry! :-) --- " C. Mannelli, Ed.D. " wrote: > I know!! I have said that all along!!!! I agree it > is bioidentical. I > never thought it was not. ; ) > > -- Re: Prometrium > > > > You'd have to ask for the manufacturer's fine > print > > when you get your > > prescription filled. They don't automatically give > > it out anymore. > > I have to run out right now, but I'll look for the > > info I found when > > I get back. There's always a chemical make-up > > included in the fine > > print. If you compare that to the chemical make-up > > of progesterone, > > it is not identical. > > > > Linn __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2006 Report Share Posted September 22, 2006 I didn't know that's how they used to get GH, good grief! Let's see....prions, right? Kuru and all that? Wowwwwwwww. Well, those people hopefully enjoyed their free GH for at least a short time before they croaked?! Oh I meant to mention to you, did you know that there is a pharmacy in Nevada that has come up with a generic version of HGH? It's only about 250.00 a month from what I understand, and very comparable to the brand name. --- " C. Mannelli, Ed.D. " wrote: > : > > The original growth hormone was not synthesized from > plants or anything. It > was spun off human cadaver blood. It was patented. > So I am not sure that > what you said here has always been the case. > > What a gig, spinning off plasma from cadavers and > selling the growth hormone > and killing a lot of people with mad cow-like > disease. I cannot remember > the company, Humatrope I think was the brand. (I > used to have to iodinate > it for research purposes.) The company got sued and > the survivors have been > provided free GH for the rest of their lives. > > > > -- Re: Prometrium > > It is altered and synthesized - from plants. That is > why it is patentable. It is not " naturally occuring > Progesterone " that we make in our bodies. > > However, the end result is exactly the same, > chemically and structurally bioidentical to human > Progesterone. > > Because they synthesize it from plants and move the > molecules around to make it match human > Progesterone, > it is patentable. > > I think that they were required by the FDA to put > those warnings on their product or they wouldn't > have > been able to market it. The warnings are applicable > to > synthetic Progesterone, not bioidentical > Progesterone, > but that wouldn't stop the FDA from requiring them > from putting the same warnings on the Bio-Id stuff. > > The FDA and big pharmaceutical companies are VERY > hostile to bioidentical hormonal products and it is > not unusual at all for them to refer to bioidentical > Progesterone as having the same risks that synthetic > Progesterone has - when it doesn't. > > __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2006 Report Share Posted September 22, 2006 Well that's interesting. I can find out more about the GH made by Teva in Israel. I suppose it requires a prescription, but I wonder if they would accept one from a US doc? If it doesn't require a prescription, that would be awesome. --- " C. Mannelli, Ed.D. " wrote: > : > > Also there was a big stink regarding even making > generic estrogen or provera > The big drug companies yelled that the generic had > the very same > contaminant (delta estrogen or some such) that they > had but pretended they > did not have. So basically big pharma kept the > generics off the market. I > am actually very surprised that Prometrium made it. > > There has been a generic growth hormone made by Teva > in Israel. It is not > allowed to be used here because it is so much > cheaper. China has an > extremely cheap generic growth hormone. Not allowed > here. There was a > generic growth hormone slated to be accepted here. > If it has I have not > heard and have not kept up with it. One doc in a > state advertised he was > selling it but I think he lost his license. > > The body builders use generic GH from China. Most > times they get it and it > does not get seized. Sometimes it is seized. Lots > of games as you know. > > __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2006 Report Share Posted September 22, 2006 : I knew someone was supposed to get their generic approved. I was counting on Teva. Their product has had no problems. Do you know what pharmacy? I actually did try the stuff from China. I was scared and warned but the only side effect I noticed was redness at the injection site. It worked very well. I just could not deal with getting it from China, too risky. It was about two dollars an IU as compared to 10 or more dollars an IU. I was paying cash for my prescription GH and it cost 600. oo a month back then. My insurance would not cover it.......................why it is covering it now, when there is generic, is crazy. -- Re: Prometrium > > It is altered and synthesized - from plants. That is > why it is patentable. It is not " naturally occuring > Progesterone " that we make in our bodies. > > However, the end result is exactly the same, > chemically and structurally bioidentical to human > Progesterone. > > Because they synthesize it from plants and move the > molecules around to make it match human > Progesterone, > it is patentable. > > I think that they were required by the FDA to put > those warnings on their product or they wouldn't > have > been able to market it. The warnings are applicable > to > synthetic Progesterone, not bioidentical > Progesterone, > but that wouldn't stop the FDA from requiring them > from putting the same warnings on the Bio-Id stuff. > > The FDA and big pharmaceutical companies are VERY > hostile to bioidentical hormonal products and it is > not unusual at all for them to refer to bioidentical > Progesterone as having the same risks that synthetic > Progesterone has - when it doesn't. > > __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2006 Report Share Posted September 22, 2006 You cannot order it from Israel from what I hear. Teva will not risk selling it to us. This all may have changed as I have not tracked it and Teva was the company that was supposed to get the approval. Were you the one asking about GH? If you have PPO insurance and if your doc will prescribe it, starting out low it is not that expensive. I started out very very high dose from a rejuvenation clinic. Those clinics were giving out scripts right and left. My doc there stopped doing it after I was on it a year. It was very hard to scrape up the money and I had to use my credit card. Starting on a high dose was a mistake. Now after being on this list, I realize I stressed my adrenals. I was started on about twice what I take now. Email me off group and I can give you more info on it. Sanrda -- Re: Prometrium Well that's interesting. I can find out more about the GH made by Teva in Israel. I suppose it requires a prescription, but I wonder if they would accept one from a US doc? If it doesn't require a prescription, that would be awesome. --- " C. Mannelli, Ed.D. " wrote: > : > > Also there was a big stink regarding even making > generic estrogen or provera > The big drug companies yelled that the generic had > the very same > contaminant (delta estrogen or some such) that they > had but pretended they > did not have. So basically big pharma kept the > generics off the market. I > am actually very surprised that Prometrium made it. > > There has been a generic growth hormone made by Teva > in Israel. It is not > allowed to be used here because it is so much > cheaper. China has an > extremely cheap generic growth hormone. Not allowed > here. There was a > generic growth hormone slated to be accepted here. > If it has I have not > heard and have not kept up with it. One doc in a > state advertised he was > selling it but I think he lost his license. > > The body builders use generic GH from China. Most > times they get it and it > does not get seized. Sometimes it is seized. Lots > of games as you know. > > __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2006 Report Share Posted September 22, 2006 , Not trying to give you a hard time, I'm just leery. My bio-identical Cortisol carries the same warnings that I see on mainstream prescriptions for HC, yet my compounded progesterone does not. That makes me suspicious, especially when the literature lists the side effects as Prometrium users, not just studies reflecting all synthetic progestins. The only side effects listed for my compounded progesterone are possible sore breasts and sleepiness in case you take too much. I read that Prometrium is a 200 mg dose, is that correct? That is way more than my doc would prescribe in the bio- identical. I was taking 75 mg at one point which was the highest dose they like to prescribe. 200 mgs is a lot for your liver to be processing. I'm still leery and feel more comfortable with compounded. Linn On Sep 22, 2006, at 9:45 PM, C. Mannelli, Ed.D. wrote: > I don't know what else to say. All of this is incorrect. I used to > do drug > studies as well. It has stated here many times, that the warnings > for HC > are for huge doses and for steroids in general and that HC in > physiological > doses does not have these side effects. Same with Prometrium. Like > I said, > they are listing these things to cover themselves. > > Again, I looked at Solvay and several other sites as well as my > books. The > chemical structures shown, are identical. Prometrium is identical to > progesterone produced by the human ovaries. > > It is incorrect that a natural item has to have its very chemical > structure > altered to get a patent. Something can be added, like the multiple > patents > on the various bioidentical growth hormones, which are all the same > exact > chemical structure with inactive additions. > >> . > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 23, 2006 Report Share Posted September 23, 2006 : That is expensive. Mexico sells Saizen over the counter for about that much or less. Hum, I wonder who the manufacturer is. I will look this up. Too bad the China stuff isn't legal. I actually liked that brand the best. You could finely tune your dose since you mixed it yourself. I never could figure out why the red marks after injection. They would disappear in a day or two. Someone told me pH of the mixture. I preferred the red marks to the bruising from some American brands. And the China stuff was so cheap it was unbelievable. But the harassment from it getting seized in the mail, even with a prescription, just was not worth it to me. I did see a body builder selling it to other weight lifters for profit. Interestingly, I did not have a weight problem on that particular brand but the brand I am on now has not reduced my weight. -- Re: Prometrium > > > > It is altered and synthesized - from plants. That > is > > why it is patentable. It is not " naturally > occuring > > Progesterone " that we make in our bodies. > > > > However, the end result is exactly the same, > > chemically and structurally bioidentical to human > > Progesterone. > > > > Because they synthesize it from plants and move > the > > molecules around to make it match human > > Progesterone, > > it is patentable. > > > > I think that they were required by the FDA to put > > those warnings on their product or they wouldn't > > have > > been able to market it. The warnings are > applicable > > to > > synthetic Progesterone, not bioidentical > > Progesterone, > > but that wouldn't stop the FDA from requiring them > > from putting the same warnings on the Bio-Id > stuff. > > > > The FDA and big pharmaceutical companies are VERY > > hostile to bioidentical hormonal products and it > is > > not unusual at all for them to refer to > bioidentical > > Progesterone as having the same risks that > synthetic > > Progesterone has - when it doesn't. > > > > __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 23, 2006 Report Share Posted September 23, 2006 : The people who croaked did so fairly quickly or suffered a long time. It is the survivors who did not develop the disease that continue to get free GH for the rest of their lives. Gee, like that is a huge thing for the drug manufacturer to pay for. I worked in a blood bank when I was in college. The only thing they screened for back then was cytomegalo virus. So no telling how many people got Lyme, AIDS, prions, etc. from receiving transfusions. These people were never penalized. My dad received a blood transfusion shortly before he died of lung cancer. They sent him a letter saying he had received some type of antigen from the donor blood. He broke out in hives. I always thought he got Lyme or some infection from this blood. Of course they have no responsibility or liability in damaging their patients. That is why it makes me so ill to see the poster children for chemo and radiation like Sherly Crow, ex New York mayor Giuliani (sorry cannot spell it), Lance Armstrong. Your average patient does not fair well with the treatments they say they went through. I watched my dad and sister die of treatment!! -- Re: Prometrium > > It is altered and synthesized - from plants. That is > why it is patentable. It is not " naturally occuring > Progesterone " that we make in our bodies. > > However, the end result is exactly the same, > chemically and structurally bioidentical to human > Progesterone. > > Because they synthesize it from plants and move the > molecules around to make it match human > Progesterone, > it is patentable. > > I think that they were required by the FDA to put > those warnings on their product or they wouldn't > have > been able to market it. The warnings are applicable > to > synthetic Progesterone, not bioidentical > Progesterone, > but that wouldn't stop the FDA from requiring them > from putting the same warnings on the Bio-Id stuff. > > The FDA and big pharmaceutical companies are VERY > hostile to bioidentical hormonal products and it is > not unusual at all for them to refer to bioidentical > Progesterone as having the same risks that synthetic > Progesterone has - when it doesn't. > > __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 23, 2006 Report Share Posted September 23, 2006 --- Linn wrote: > , > > Not trying to give you a hard time, I'm just leery. > My bio-identical > Cortisol carries the same warnings that I see on > mainstream > prescriptions for HC, yet my compounded progesterone > does not. That's a part of a lawsuit with the FDA, filed by Wyeth, a big Pharma company. Their synthetic products ARE required by the FDA to have those warnings but in their lawsuit to get compounding pharmacies banned, they also tried to force the FDA to make compounding pharmacies put the SAME warning labels on their bio-Id hormones. However, the compounding pharmacies and women all across the country fought back hard, well armed with proof that bio-id hormones do NOT cause the same side effects and illnesses as big pharma company's synthetics, and so far the FDA has not been able to require the warnings to be put on the bioId hormones and make it stick. It's still an ongoing battle though. Big pharma is not backing down, and compounding pharmacies and women all over the country are still fighting back. The ultimate goal of big pharma is to completely ban compounding pharmacies altogether, including their making bio-id hormones. __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 23, 2006 Report Share Posted September 23, 2006 I participated in that at request of Hotze clinic. All connected to Codex isn't it? Linn > --- Linn wrote: > > > , > > > > Not trying to give you a hard time, I'm just leery. > > My bio-identical > > Cortisol carries the same warnings that I see on > > mainstream > > prescriptions for HC, yet my compounded progesterone > > does not. > > That's a part of a lawsuit with the FDA, filed by > Wyeth, a big Pharma company. Their synthetic products > ARE required by the FDA to have those warnings but in > their lawsuit to get compounding pharmacies banned, > they also tried to force the FDA to make compounding > pharmacies put the SAME warning labels on their bio-Id > hormones. > >> . > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 23, 2006 Report Share Posted September 23, 2006 I know exactly what you mean. I lost a 5 year old daughter to aplastic anemia, went through several horrendous problems with blood banks and hemotologists, etc. Linn On Sep 23, 2006, at 10:30 AM, C. Mannelli, Ed.D. wrote: > : > > The people who croaked did so fairly quickly or suffered a long > time. It is > the survivors who did not develop the disease that continue to get > free GH > for the rest of their lives. Gee, like that is a huge thing for the > drug > manufacturer to pay for. > > I worked in a blood bank when I was in college. The only thing they > screened > for back then was cytomegalo virus. So no telling how many people > got Lyme, > AIDS, prions, etc. from receiving transfusions. These people were > never > penalized. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 23, 2006 Report Share Posted September 23, 2006 : When I worked at a hospital for 13 years, one job I had was drug study coordinator or some such title. I did the paperwork for subjects enrolled in the studies. I flew to Chicago for one study with the company in Kalamazoo. Anyway, the money they gave me and all associated with the study was sickening. I was able to buy a car with it!! oh not to mention the drug had already been marketed (ironically, it is one I have taken for Lyme, with great success). They wanted the drug to be approved for the treatment of childhood ear infections. It was not enough for it to be approved for almost everything else. It was found not to work and my boss wrote an article saying so. It still got approved and marketed for that. The subjects got paid pennies. They were usually very poor and needed the money so badly. For 25 dollars a session, the small children and babies were put through meringotimies, where the eardrum is puntured and fluid sucked off. Horrible painful AND deadner (lidocaine) could be used and infused painlessly by an electrical current pulling the lidocaine into the eardrum. The docs elected to not use the deadner. Evil evil! Needless to say I got out of that position asap. -- Re: Prometrium --- Linn wrote: > , > > Not trying to give you a hard time, I'm just leery. > My bio-identical > Cortisol carries the same warnings that I see on > mainstream > prescriptions for HC, yet my compounded progesterone > does not. That's a part of a lawsuit with the FDA, filed by Wyeth, a big Pharma company. Their synthetic products ARE required by the FDA to have those warnings but in their lawsuit to get compounding pharmacies banned, they also tried to force the FDA to make compounding pharmacies put the SAME warning labels on their bio-Id hormones. However, the compounding pharmacies and women all across the country fought back hard, well armed with proof that bio-id hormones do NOT cause the same side effects and illnesses as big pharma company's synthetics, and so far the FDA has not been able to require the warnings to be put on the bioId hormones and make it stick. It's still an ongoing battle though. Big pharma is not backing down, and compounding pharmacies and women all over the country are still fighting back. The ultimate goal of big pharma is to completely ban compounding pharmacies altogether, including their making bio-id hormones. __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 23, 2006 Report Share Posted September 23, 2006 The Teva product was slated to be approved for generic use in the US in Feb of 2005. I remember cause my endocrinologist who I travelled to Kansas to see, told me this. And I went to see her when my dad was ill so that was summer 2004. I heard it did not get to market in the states but that another company got the generic approval. I will have to search around to see who got the approval. One of my docs was thinking of selling it at his practice since he has some patients on it who are unable to obtain it. His prices are similar to what was posted here earlier for generics. With my insurance I pay a co pay of 75 bucks a month but now I will be switching insurances with a new job coming up. -- Re: Prometrium Here is an interesting bit on Teva in the lower half of this article. The article states that the maker of this pen, Novo Nordisk, sued Teva and it's licensor Savient Pharmaceuticals, to keep them from being able to market their generic HGH in the US, saying that Teva/Savient had infringed on Novo's patenting of genetic HGH. Teva/Savient appealed and the lawsuit by Novo was struck down as the courts said Novo's patent was invalid and unenforceable on a biological product. This was in 2004. http://www.drugresearcher.com/news/ng.asp?id=55327-novo-launches-first --- " C. Mannelli, Ed.D. " wrote: > You cannot order it from Israel from what I hear. > Teva will not risk > selling it to us. This all may have changed as I > have not tracked it and > Teva was the company that was supposed to get the > approval. > > Were you the one asking about GH? If you have PPO > insurance and if your doc > will prescribe it, starting out low it is not that > expensive. > > I started out very very high dose from a > rejuvenation clinic. Those clinics > were giving out scripts right and left. My doc > there stopped doing it after > I was on it a year. It was very hard to scrape up > the money and I had to > use my credit card. > > > Starting on a high dose was a mistake. Now after > being on this list, I > realize I stressed my adrenals. I was started on > about twice what I take > now. > > > Email me off group and I can give you more info on > it. > > Sanrda __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 23, 2006 Report Share Posted September 23, 2006 : I think the amount prescribed for creme use is 20 mgs. Are you allergic to peanuts? -- Re: Prometrium Oh thats good to know about peanuts. I used to eat peanut butter toast for hypoglycemia a lot, but won't be doing that in the future if the hypoglycemia ever comes back in force. 200 mgs Progesterone isn't high, taken orally. Most of that gets destroyed in the liver. The cream form is absorbed much better through your skin and capillaries, so that doesn't happen. So a 200 mg. amount in cream would mostly get through into your body, but a 200 mg. amount orally would have a large portion of it destroyed. --- Linn wrote: > The other concern to me is the peanut oil. Peanuts > are a goitregen, > and also the chemical process to produce the oil > itself. It's a > really high dosage at 200 mgs., that's a lot of > excess for your body > to process. I don't know, I'd still be very leery > of using this. > I'm a fan of Dr. Tim O'Shea, only what the body > needs and nothing > leftover to process out. Even good things become a > problem when in > excess. > > Linn > > On Sep 22, 2006, at 8:26 AM, C. Mannelli, > Ed.D. wrote: > > > > > > http://www.families-first.com/hotflash/faq/prometrium.htm > > -------Original Message------- > > > >> . > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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