Re: NT=AS does not compute.

[Guest guest]

Kellie wrote:

>...They don't

>understand that infections

>as a result of really bad scratches and the resulting tetnus shot at

>the emergency room is

>more expensive (and painful) than the fake nails to begin with.

I've always thought it was not necessary to get more than one

tetanus shot about every ten years or so. Is that not true?

Jane

[Guest guest]

>

> I've always thought it was not necessary to get more than one

> tetanus shot about every ten years or so. Is that not true?

>

> Jane

>

I'm not sure. I just know that I have had 3 in the last 10 years. Perhaps it was

because of the

severity of the wound.

Kellie

[Guest guest]

I wrote:

> > I've always thought it was not necessary to get more than one

> > tetanus shot about every ten years or so. Is that not true?

and Kellie responded:

>I'm not sure. I just know that I have had 3 in the last 10 years.

>Perhaps it was because of the

>severity of the wound.

Maybe so. A quick Google turned up this (from

http://www.kidsource.com/health/tetan.html):

Anyone who has an open wound injury should determine the date of his

or her last tetanus booster. A person who has not had a booster

within the past 10 years, should receive a booster dose of vaccine

and/or other medications to prevent tetanus disease. For some wounds,

a person may need a booster if more than 5 years have elapsed since

the last dose.

Jane

[Guest guest]

I think the key to understanding NT concepts of " what's best for

everyone, " is to look at war, as well as the concept of prejudice.

Each group of NTs has their own ideas of what is right, how to do

things, etc. They will kill each other over it, either in direct

conflict over the concepts, or for resources because a group doesn't

have enough resources, and combining with a neighbor who has those

resources into the same group is impossible due to an inability for

NT leaders to share control, or to reconcile and compromise on

beliefs and group definitions.

Swift made fun of this in Gulliver's Travels. So, which end

of the egg do you crack? Which is more important... to focus on

intellect or on feeling? To believe your life is perfect and all

others are imperfect, or to recognize the flaws in your own life and

work on them? It is an incredible book.

If you comply with the group expectations for appearance, behavioral

choices, " likes, " and ideas, (soical-cuing markers like flags on a

battlefield) then you are part of the group. People who are not part

of the group cause an " instinctual " reaction on the part of NTs to

reject them for resources and so on.

Therefore, an NT who wants to be your friend will struggle with

accepting your differences, and encourage you to adopt as many same

things as their own group definitions, in order to be better able to

comfortably accept you. Explaining real and logical purpose for

anything you do won't be all that effective, because this is working

on that " mirror neuron " level for them. Do go ahead and explain, but

don't expect a quick or comfortable understanding or acceptance of

your explanation.

School indoctrination, national pride, faith-based groupings, etc.,

are all tribalism behavior on the part of NTs.

Studies have found that NT tribalism instinct works in concentric

cirlces, from the closest crowd of " best friends " to local, regional,

and national community identifiers. The more you share with the

closest circles, the more accepting an NT will feel toward you... and

there are actual population tolerance limits for each circle, with

the closest circles being smallest.

I studied this in classroom management classes when getting my

teaching degree, because it affects classroom dynamics, and

understanding it helps " set up the classroom " to take advantage of

those groupings, as well as moving students around and acting as

mediator in disputes, to increase the number of people in each

student's closest groups with differences (especially targeting

ethnicity tolerance, etc.).

The more a person gets others to accept his/her ideas for a group's

rules for being in the group, the more of a leader he/she

is. " Leadership " qualities are all about getting people to

emotionally accept your ideas and to incorporate them into their

group definition... and this involves things like making them feel

like they are important to you, being able to do the mirror-neuron

empathy dance (nanosecond reaction and demonstration of similar

feelings), etc.

An NT has great difficulty reconciling your signals ... you want to

be their friend, but do not want to redifine yourself by their

groups' definitions. They do NOT ever truly interact as individuals,

but as elements of the different groups to which they belong... and

friends are fellow members of their groups.

Of course, there are NTs who have made the transition to being able

to truly interact individual to individual without a sense that you

belong to any wider shared social grouping; these are the people with

whom you want to interact and build friendships.... on the common

ground of shared intellectually and emotionally-defined interests

rather than shared socially-defined groups. However, be careful,

because they have a much more tenuous hold on those interests than

they do on their definition of self as part of social groupings. If

asked to make a choice ... very few will choose a long-term

individual friendship without the consistent social group-defining

behaviors and signals. They need that as much as we need structured

routine and predictable events and environments.

S.

>

> I couldn't resist throwing in a different topic with all the heavy

ones being discussed at the

> moment.

>

> I agree that in politics the majority wins in a vote but since when

does NT=AS..? Why do

> NT's think they know better what is good for me/you/us than we do?

Where do they get off

> thinking that what is good for them is also good for AS people? Why

do they always think

> that I should do what they tell me to do? If I were NT myself they

would leave me alone but

> I am an Aspie not an NT.

>

> I do one thing that drives most NT's I know crazy. I have very thin

and sharp finger nails.

> As a result I tend to seriously scratch myself on (frequent)

occasion. To combat drawing

> blood without realizing it I have my nails done. I don't get them

done because it's pretty

> or the thing to do and I can't really afford them but I get them

done for safety reasons.

> Fake nails are blunt and rounded on the ends as opposed to really

sharp and dangerous

> real nails. All the NT's I know say " You can't afford that. You

know your being really

> frivalous with your money. You shouldn't do that. " They don't

understand that infections

> as a result of really bad scratches and the resulting tetnus shot

at the emergency room is

> more expensive (and painful) than the fake nails to begin with.

When I try to explain this to

> them they say I'm just trying to justify getting my nails done.

>

> The thing is that if they do something I don't agree with they tell

me to bug off. But if I tell

> them to bug off for the same reason they get really offended and

tell me I'm being

> unreasonable.

>

> Does anyone else have experiences like this?

>

> Kellie

>

[Guest guest]

> Therefore, an NT who wants to be your friend will struggle with

> accepting your differences, and encourage you to adopt as many same

> things as their own group definitions, in order to be better able to

> comfortably accept you. Explaining real and logical purpose for

> anything you do won't be all that effective, because this is working

> on that " mirror neuron " level for them.

I think you have some of the right concept but the wrong reasoning.

Humans evolved from herd animals who were also prey animals. In a

herd the animal that stands out or wanders too far from the crowd is

vulnerable to predators. Therefore the rest of the herd, or the

compassionate ones anyway, want to draw that vulnerable one back into

the herd for xyr safety.

This instinct is buried well below the conscious level, and therefore

not particularly amenable to learning that it is no longer a life or

death issue to be different/same.

NTs aren't being mean, they are being kind. But to those of us who

want/need acknowledgement of our difference, validation of our

difference, it *feels to us* like meaness. Meaness received though

not meaness put out. In other words well meaning, good intentions -

those same things as pave the road to hell.

What is needed is gradual education of NTs by people who are

different, not condemning them because their protective nature gets it

wrong. When autistics get angry about this kind of thing NTs get

defensive and find us unreasonable. So we need to be reasonable in

how we go about it.

It is not productive to hate NTs, even the Autism Speaks, CAN, DAN,

etc ones. We need to show them how to do it differently. It *isn't*

a war.

Genyin

--

" I know the answer! The answer lies within the heart of all mankind!

The answer is twelve? I think I'm in the wrong building. "

M. Schultz

[Guest guest]

I like this! It makes lots of sense! )

>

>

> > Therefore, an NT who wants to be your friend will struggle with

> > accepting your differences, and encourage you to adopt as many

same

> > things as their own group definitions, in order to be better able

to

> > comfortably accept you. Explaining real and logical purpose for

> > anything you do won't be all that effective, because this is

working

> > on that " mirror neuron " level for them.

>

>

> I think you have some of the right concept but the wrong reasoning.

> Humans evolved from herd animals who were also prey animals. In a

> herd the animal that stands out or wanders too far from the crowd is

> vulnerable to predators. Therefore the rest of the herd, or the

> compassionate ones anyway, want to draw that vulnerable one back

into

> the herd for xyr safety.

>

> This instinct is buried well below the conscious level, and

therefore

> not particularly amenable to learning that it is no longer a life or

> death issue to be different/same.

>

> NTs aren't being mean, they are being kind. But to those of us who

> want/need acknowledgement of our difference, validation of our

> difference, it *feels to us* like meaness. Meaness received though

> not meaness put out. In other words well meaning, good intentions -

> those same things as pave the road to hell.

>

> What is needed is gradual education of NTs by people who are

> different, not condemning them because their protective nature gets

it

> wrong. When autistics get angry about this kind of thing NTs get

> defensive and find us unreasonable. So we need to be reasonable in

> how we go about it.

>

> It is not productive to hate NTs, even the Autism Speaks, CAN, DAN,

> etc ones. We need to show them how to do it differently. It

*isn't*

> a war.

>

> Genyin

>

> --

> " I know the answer! The answer lies within the heart of all mankind!

> The answer is twelve? I think I'm in the wrong building. "

> M. Schultz

>

[Guest guest]

Genyin wrote:

>I think you have some of the right concept but the wrong reasoning.

>Humans evolved from herd animals who were also prey animals. In a

>herd the animal that stands out or wanders too far from the crowd is

>vulnerable to predators. Therefore the rest of the herd, or the

>compassionate ones anyway, want to draw that vulnerable one back into

>the herd for xyr safety.

If you substitute the word " pack " for the word " herd, " I'd feel more

comfortable with your post. My impression is that we evolved from

social-pack animals (e.g., baboons), not from herd animals like

zebras.

Jane

[Guest guest]

I used to get fake ones until my husband was ill and then my life just got

busy, dishwashing, etc. they just pop right off, I'm afraid the fake ones

would not last a day with all i do. But i think it would be nice.

I also think, that scratching aside, if its what you like, you dont have to

justify it to anyone.

I should let more than my white roots show.

I enjoy the texture of my hair after a coloring. Its a personal choice that

I dont have to justify because I think ladies with silver or white hair are

admirable and gorgeous in their own right.

As for your nails, its your money, your body, your choice. I'd make a funny

voive and wiggle them under their noses " I think theyre simply gorgeous

darling! "

No need to have a diatribe, monologue explanation or lecture on finance.

K

> I couldn't resist throwing in a different topic with all the heavy ones

> being discussed at the

> moment.

>

> I agree that in politics the majority wins in a vote but since when does

> NT=AS..? Why do

> NT's think they know better what is good for me/you/us than we do? Where

> do they get off

> thinking that what is good for them is also good for AS people? Why do

> they always think

> that I should do what they tell me to do? If I were NT myself they would

> leave me alone but

> I am an Aspie not an NT.

>

> I do one thing that drives most NT's I know crazy. I have very thin and

> sharp finger nails.

> As a result I tend to seriously scratch myself on (frequent) occasion. To

> combat drawing

> blood without realizing it I have my nails done. I don't get them done

> because it's pretty

> or the thing to do and I can't really afford them but I get them done for

> safety reasons.

> Fake nails are blunt and rounded on the ends as opposed to really sharp

> and dangerous

> real nails. All the NT's I know say " You can't afford that. You know your

> being really

> frivalous with your money. You shouldn't do that. " They don't understand

> that infections

> as a result of really bad scratches and the resulting tetnus shot at the

> emergency room is

> more expensive (and painful) than the fake nails to begin with. When I try

> to explain this to

> them they say I'm just trying to justify getting my nails done.

>

> The thing is that if they do something I don't agree with they tell me to

> bug off. But if I tell

> them to bug off for the same reason they get really offended and tell me

> I'm being

> unreasonable.

>

> Does anyone else have experiences like this?

>

> Kellie

>

>

>

--

" Sometimes the world seems like a big hole. You spend all your life shouting

down it and all you hear are echoes of some idiot yelling nonsense down a

hole. "

Adam Duritz

[Guest guest]

Lots of typos. No excuse. And I call myself a writer. Sorry.

K

> I used to get fake ones until my husband was ill and then my life just got

> busy, dishwashing, etc. they just pop right off, I'm afraid the fake ones

> would not last a day with all i do. But i think it would be nice.

> I also think, that scratching aside, if its what you like, you dont have

> to justify it to anyone.

> I should let more than my white roots show.

> I enjoy the texture of my hair after a coloring. Its a personal choice

> that I dont have to justify because I think ladies with silver or white hair

> are admirable and gorgeous in their own right.

> As for your nails, its your money, your body, your choice. I'd make a

> funny voive and wiggle them under their noses " I think theyre simply

> gorgeous darling! "

> No need to have a diatribe, monologue explanation or lecture on finance.

> K

>

>

>

> > I couldn't resist throwing in a different topic with all the heavy

> > ones being discussed at the

> > moment.

> >

> > I agree that in politics the majority wins in a vote but since when does

> > NT=AS..? Why do

> > NT's think they know better what is good for me/you/us than we do? Where

> > do they get off

> > thinking that what is good for them is also good for AS people? Why do

> > they always think

> > that I should do what they tell me to do? If I were NT myself they would

> > leave me alone but

> > I am an Aspie not an NT.

> >

> > I do one thing that drives most NT's I know crazy. I have very thin and

> > sharp finger nails.

> > As a result I tend to seriously scratch myself on (frequent) occasion.

> > To combat drawing

> > blood without realizing it I have my nails done. I don't get them done

> > because it's pretty

> > or the thing to do and I can't really afford them but I get them done

> > for safety reasons.

> > Fake nails are blunt and rounded on the ends as opposed to really sharp

> > and dangerous

> > real nails. All the NT's I know say " You can't afford that. You know

> > your being really

> > frivalous with your money. You shouldn't do that. " They don't understand

> > that infections

> > as a result of really bad scratches and the resulting tetnus shot at the

> > emergency room is

> > more expensive (and painful) than the fake nails to begin with. When I

> > try to explain this to

> > them they say I'm just trying to justify getting my nails done.

> >

> > The thing is that if they do something I don't agree with they tell me

> > to bug off. But if I tell

> > them to bug off for the same reason they get really offended and tell me

> > I'm being

> > unreasonable.

> >

> > Does anyone else have experiences like this?

> >

> > Kellie

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

> --

> " Sometimes the world seems like a big hole. You spend all your life

> shouting down it and all you hear are echoes of some idiot yelling nonsense

> down a hole. "

> Adam Duritz

>

--

" Sometimes the world seems like a big hole. You spend all your life shouting

down it and all you hear are echoes of some idiot yelling nonsense down a

hole. "

Adam Duritz

[Guest guest]

You can not blame War on NTs, yes the people starting them are NT but

that doesnt mean ALL of them are that way. Most wars are started by a

handful of people in charge that only care about their own personal

gains. Sure lots of them say they want war but they also lie a lot,

they will lie about anything to fit in.

They may talk like they want war but if they all really loved to go

to war the military would be fighting to keep people out, not fighting

to get them in.

And Wars can only be avoided normally by the offensive side. Can we

blame WWII on everyone? or just the group of extreamist trying to wipe

out entire races?

Your nail thing is only a problem because the NT group your

assosiating with finds it foolish, there are many that would tell you

its perfectly fine even with not having enough money for it, but even

then only if you said because you liked the look.

Acording to everything I have seen/read they believe humans where at

one time primarly an animal that did not stay in groups. Everything we

know of humans today would make it seem that they have no idea what

they are talking about but logic tends to fail for most people.

[Guest guest]

The point I was trying to make about NTs and Wars is that they arnt

all war lovers. The people is group mentality, if someone well

respected in a group says lets have a war they are likely to not argue it.

Hating autism and curing it is the cool thing to do right now, so it

will take a lot of work to get them away from it.

[Guest guest]

> If you substitute the word " pack " for the word " herd, " I'd feel more

> comfortable with your post. My impression is that we evolved from

> social-pack animals (e.g., baboons), not from herd animals like

> zebras.

I associate " pack " with the likes of dogs and wolves and hyenas -

killers - so " herd " is more comfortable for me. I guess we agree to

differ :-)

Genyin

--

" I know the answer! The answer lies within the heart of all mankind!

The answer is twelve? I think I'm in the wrong building. "

M. Schultz

[Guest guest]

There are distinct and particular differences between pack animals and herd

animals -- the two terms are not interchangeable based on which you're more

comfortable with. Cows, for example, are herd animals, and you cannot call

them pack animals. Wolves, conversely, are pack animals, and you cannot

call them herd animals.

Humans are descended from pack animals, not herd animals. (In fact, I'd say

that humans still are pack animals.)

On Jan 24, 2008 2:03 PM, Kelsang Genyin

wrote:

>

>

> > If you substitute the word " pack " for the word " herd, " I'd feel more

> > comfortable with your post. My impression is that we evolved from

> > social-pack animals (e.g., baboons), not from herd animals like

> > zebras.

>

>

> I associate " pack " with the likes of dogs and wolves and hyenas -

> killers - so " herd " is more comfortable for me. I guess we agree to

> differ :-)

>

> Genyin

>

>

> --

> " I know the answer! The answer lies within the heart of all mankind!

> The answer is twelve? I think I'm in the wrong building. "

> M. Schultz

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> There are distinct and particular differences between pack animals and herd

> animals -- the two terms are not interchangeable based on which you're more

> comfortable with.

However I am likely to continue to use terminology I am comfortable

with. I don't use words that don't feel right to me. And as long as

everyone gets the gist - that humans try to protect potential

outsiders by drawing them back in - then it seems all is well to me

:-)

Words are just symbols after all, and language can never truly convey

an individual's experience, only an outline that others relate to in

their individual ways.

Genyin

--

" I know the answer! The answer lies within the heart of all mankind!

The answer is twelve? I think I'm in the wrong building. "

M. Schultz

[Guest guest]

> I think you have some of the right concept but the wrong reasoning.

> Humans evolved from herd animals who were also prey animals. In a

> herd the animal that stands out or wanders too far from the crowd is

> vulnerable to predators. Therefore the rest of the herd, or the

> compassionate ones anyway, want to draw that vulnerable one back into

> the herd for xyr safety.

>

That makes no sense.

People do tend to want to stick around other people - even now, it

makes you safer. But to apply that to acting differently? That doesn't

make sense to me.

Ettina

[Guest guest]

> That makes no sense.

> People do tend to want to stick around other people - even now, it

> makes you safer. But to apply that to acting differently? That doesn't

> make sense to me.

They are scared at a quite primal level for the safety of the

different one who is standing out. They try to draw that one back in,

glossing over xyr differences. Not for their own sake but for the

sake of the different one.

Does that make more sense? (They above is NT folk)

Genyin

--

" I know the answer! The answer lies within the heart of all mankind!

The answer is twelve? I think I'm in the wrong building. "

M. Schultz

[Guest guest]

> I think you have some of the right concept but the wrong reasoning.

> Humans evolved from herd animals who were also prey animals. In a

> herd the animal that stands out or wanders too far from the crowd is

> vulnerable to predators. Therefore the rest of the herd, or the

> compassionate ones anyway, want to draw that vulnerable one back into

> the herd for xyr safety

Sounds like anthropomorphic Disney cuteness has taken a fatal hold of

someone's brain. Animals in the wild are not compassionate. Pets

may vary.

In real life, herds and packs ABANDON the old and sick and bent

individuals who cannot keep up to the predators to keep the rest of

the herd safe. The herd culls itself and stays healthy this way. Any

individual acting oddly is shunned by the herd or pack as an easy

decoy, predator-bait.

The only weak animals ever protected are the healthy young, for this

is maternal instinct and the logical continuation of their prime

directive to successfully mate, not " compassion " .

--.-

trk

--.-

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

>

> In real life, herds and packs ABANDON the old and sick and bent

> individuals who cannot keep up to the predators to keep the rest of

> the herd safe.

Not elephants. I've seen documentaries were elephants that were injured or

otherwise crippled were kept in the middle of the herd to prtest them.

D.

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

>

>

> Not elephants. I've seen documentaries were elephants that were injured or

> otherwise crippled were kept in the middle of the herd to prtest them.

Sorry, that should be 'protect' them.

D.

[Guest guest]

>

> Not elephants. I've seen documentaries were elephants that were injured or

> otherwise crippled were kept in the middle of the herd to prtest them.

From a standpoint of evolution, " protest " may be close to accurate (in a

manner of speaking). If predators learn that it's not really a good idea

to stalk an injured elephant, that means that " smart " predators will avoid

elephants entirely until the elephant herd abandons the elephant.

Therefore elephants are less vulnerable to the " pack " strategy because the

packs of predators are unlikely to attempt to find a weak elephant within

the herd.

In a way, this is similar to gazelles abandoning weak gazelles, because in

the case of gazelles, a herd can be attacked by a pack of predators if it

were to protect weak individuals, so the best strategy for success is to

limit the number of weak individuals that are protected.

- s~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

in 2008 primaries ...

too deceptive.

too scripted.

too disingenuous.

not electable.

(Repeating that candidate's name would be redundant.)

[Guest guest]

Wow, you're right about elephants, i didn't have them in my 'pack/

herd' mental picture, of course they fit. my mistake. !

ELephants are complex and misunderstood beings. I saw a program on

" elephant rage " on TV last year that really opened my eyes to the

huge wisdom and intelligence of elephants. Being a rural north

American who doesn't get out much, elephants just weren't in my

conscious mind. When would i ever see one? i won't go to zoos, too

many beings being driven insane for human entertainment, the mental

screaming is unbearable. It was sobering to learn about how badly

humans have decimated elephants as a species and a culture. Some

righteous revenge, they actually track down and kill humans who harm

and kidnap their babies, and do all other kinds of wild raging things

theywhen they've been abused too far, like squashing their keepers

flat. Google " elephant rage " . Yikes.

--.-

trk

--.-

[Guest guest]

>

>

> ----- Original Message -----

>

> >

> > In real life, herds and packs ABANDON the old and sick and bent

> > individuals who cannot keep up to the predators to keep the rest

> > of the herd safe.

>

>

> Not elephants. I've seen documentaries were elephants that were

> injured or otherwise crippled were kept in the middle of the herd

> to prtest them.

>

Chimpanzees, too, care for the sick and injured. I heard of some

chimpanzees 'attacking' a sick elderly chimpanzee female (hitting her

with small sticks and pushing her), and people who knew those

chimpanzees knew that in fact they were prodding her to move because

she was lying there and not eating anything.

In fact, contrary to popular belief, compassion is very common among

animals, domestic or wild. One theory is that being compassionate to

family members helps your genes survive in them as well, another

theory (because not all cases of animal compassion are with family)

is that it helps increase the likelihood that you will be helped when

you are in need.

For example, common vampire bats can starve if they go a single day

and night without eating. If they don't manage to get a meal one

night, they will beg one from another vampire bat - usually not a

family member, but always someone they know fairly well - who will

regurgitate part of their meal to feed the other bat. The

evolutionary explanation for this is that if they are willing to feed

the other vampire bat, that bat will be more likely to feed them on

another occasion.

Although compassion towards strangers is present in many species, it

is generally much less common than compassion towards acquaintances

or co-members of a group.

Ettina

[Guest guest]

I've been sidetracked from posting lately, but I've been wanting to add

to the herd/pack thing.

Evidence suggests that we don't come from either herd or pack animals.

Our evolutionary path, as far as mammals go, would have begun with a

creature much like a rodent. Rodents live in family groups, which is

different from a pack or a herd. In nature today, we can look to

wolves and coyotes for the difference. Wolves live in packs and

coyotes live in family groups. For coyotes, the family group is

comprised of the parents and their offspring. For wolves, a pack will

include related and unrelated members.

There is a fine line between packs, herd and family groups. However,

family groups find it easier to adapt to new environments and move from

a bad situation, hence the widespread success of rodents, coyotes and

homo sapiens.

Okay, that's all I have time to say!

a

[Guest guest]

> There is a fine line between packs, herd and family groups. However,

> family groups find it easier to adapt to new environments and move from

> a bad situation, hence the widespread success of rodents, coyotes and

> homo sapiens.

That's interesting :-)

I'm not saying you're wrong, but when you say " evidence suggests " what

evidence is this? It's worth a look at, but I've not come across it

before.

Genyin

--

" I know the answer! The answer lies within the heart of all mankind!

The answer is twelve? I think I'm in the wrong building. "

M. Schultz

[Guest guest]

>

>

> > There is a fine line between packs, herd and family groups. However,

> > family groups find it easier to adapt to new environments and move

> from

> > a bad situation, hence the widespread success of rodents, coyotes

> and

> > homo sapiens.

>

> That's interesting :-)

>

> I'm not saying you're wrong, but when you say " evidence suggests " what

> evidence is this? It's worth a look at, but I've not come across it

> before.

>

> Genyin

Well, I've always been a student of evolution, so I can't be any more

exact about or provide the " evidence " than anyone else who's been

posting, unless I spent a couple of days collecting it and I don't have

the time nor the desire if I did. I've got an extensive library of

science books (physics, astronomy, biology/evolution, viruses), not to

mention a lot of history books regarding the arts, sexuality,

computers, etc. Guess you could say I'm a bookworm from way back,

especially non-fiction (and science fiction). I also watch a lot of

nature shows, and I did recently see a show on coyotes that explained

the difference between them and wolves.

With evolution, there's no definitive answers anyway. We can't say for

sure that we come from herbivores anymore than we can say we started

out as omnivores, unless we're going as far back to our marine and

single-celled ancestors, and even then it's even more unclear. (Coming

from another thread you posted in.) From what I've learned, it goes

back and forth. There are no hard and fast rules in nature, especially

when talking about something like evolution, due to the fact that not

all the evidence is in, far from it.

But, back herds/packs/family groups. Humankind (homo sapiens) were

never " packs " or " herds " . If we seem to behave like either, it's only

because we share some basic commonalities with the rest of the animal

kingdom (coincidence comes into play as well), and as I mentioned,

there are very fine lines between herds, packs and family groups, but

especially between packs and family groups. Eg., chimps don't live in

packs (but they sometimes " behave like packs " , especially when ganging

up on another chimp or animal), they are family groups that have come

together as one community of chimps, which is not the same thing as one

sees with wolves. And humans, like chimps, are intelligent enough to

" ape " the behaviors of other animals. For instance, when humans became

organized and skilled hunters, they did so by watching and learning

from other animals who hunted in packs, therefore what you call " pack

behavior " is a combination of learned and instinctual behavior, not

wholly one or the other.

I'll try to reply back sooner next time, but no promises! ;-)

a