Re: I've been wondering...

September 20, 2006

Simply Awesome. Looking forward to the answers your ND

provides on these questions. Thanks Steve.

And thanks for the q and a between you and Cindi and

Pam, etc. giving us the height/weight body chart and

the different dosage amounts between the types of

Cortisols (Isocort, HC, Pred)

The greatest impediment to patients getting well imo

is a lack of education on the part of the Dr. as far

as what adrenal fatigue/exhaustion is, its cause and

its symptoms when it is NOT 's, but for ANY

stage, and how it is connected to the Thyroid and the

Sex Hormones as well as the brain axis involved.

The second greatest impediment to patients getting

well imo would be the patients themselves not

following their optimal protocol once it is found, and

also not destressing their lives - making the

lifestyle changes necessary for recovery.

--- Steve wrote:

> All,

>

> I am slated to talk to my ND in another week or so,

> and have a list

> of 10 questions I intend to ask him. I'll post what

> I learn for the

> benefit of all. In the meantime, I'm guessing many

> of you have

> similar questions...

__________________________________________________

September 20, 2006

Steve,

I have a few responses for a couple of your questions. We didn't get

into in on Sunday but it took awhile for my body to adjust to the

hydrocortisone. I had hoped for the " magic bullet " but it didn't turn

out that way. I had to go slowly because of my thyroid mecications

which isn't an issue for you. For questions #8...I don't think you

gave it enough time or enough hydrocortisone. I was VERY reluctant to

take steriods but after reading all of the things I read, good and

bad, I decided to do it. I really felt I couldn't make things much

worse. I do think if you don't take enough that can be just as bad.

I started at 17.5mg for about a month. Actually it was working up to

that amount in a month. Then, I just knew I needed more. I took

12.5mg in the morning then 5mg at lunch. I really need more and my

doc gave me 25mg per day. That helped a lot! Then I stress dosed up

to 30mg and that was the key. I stayed at that dose. Some days I

need even more. Some days I take an extra 5mg. My symptoms of

needing more are just as Val describes. Shaky then nauseated. I know

you said you get shaky when you are tired but maybe you need more

hydrocortisone. I also believe it depends on your body type and since

you are a man you probably do need more. I am tall and normal weight

but I am big boned. Nobody laugh please, it is true! I think my body

size dictates the amount of hydrocortisone that I need.

I completely get the idea of how important it is for each of us to

decide what to do for our bodies. You were on the medication for 3

weeks and I honestly can tell you that I didn't see much change for

several more weeks and they were very subtle changes. I do respect

your decision to research other options. Being at stage 7 my adrenals

are pretty tired so I decided a total vacation was in order for them.

They are suppressed as it is so my suppressing them chemically

probably can't do much more harm. At least I hope so....

As far as question #10 is concerned I read quite a bit on the

's site that one of the main problems with the STIM test is

that the doctors don't know how to interpret the results. The best

description I have seen on result interpetation has been from Chris

. I think it is over on the StopTheThyroidMadness site. Surf

around there and you will probably see quiet a few items on the STIM

test. He describes how it should be interpreted. I researched this

test because I wanted one, as you know. To have one now I would have

to take a month to wean off then be off the medicine long enough for

my adrenals to kick back in. Who knows how long that could take. I

have been making myself crazy trying to figure out another way of

testing to prove or disprove a dignosis of 's Disease. I found

this yesterday on a link from the Clymer Clinic:

Small Adrenal Glands in CFS- The first study to use imaging methods to

measure adrenal gland size in CFS revealed significant adrenal atrophy

in a group of 8 CFS patients with abnormal endocrine parameters. The

right and left adrenal gland bodies were reduced by over 50% in the

CFS subjects compared to those from a group of 55 healthy subjects.

( et al, Psychoneuroendocrinology 1999 Oct;24 (7):759-68)

I think an imaging scan of my adrenals might tell a telling tale?

What do you think?

Hopefully some day I can answer question 7.

a in North Idaho.

> of 10 questions I intend to ask him. I'll post what I learn for the

> benefit of all. In the meantime, I'm guessing many of you have

> similar questions...

>

> 1) If you fail to respond to hydrocortisone, is this de-facto proof

> that you DON'T have adrenal fatigue? Or is a saliva test a more

> sure-fire way to confirm/deny the diagnosis? Are some people " slow

> reactors " who can take a month or more to respond to HC therapy?

>

> 2) What is the difference between " glandulars " and Adrenal Corticol

> Extract (ACE)? Some have hormones, and some do not. What is the

> purpose of taking both? Is IsoCort considered an ACE? What is it

> about non-hormonal glandulars that is supposed to be beneficial? If

> my heart is weak, I don't go home and eat heart/lungs. Why is it

> then that ingesting adrenal tissues is recommended for rebuilding my

> own?

>

> 3) What percentage of people get better on the glandulars? What is

> it about HC that causes you to avoid it except in the most extreme

> circumstances?

>

> 4) If someone has elevated PM cortisol levels, how is this treated.

> Or, if their circadian rhythm is shifted (such as they work

> graveyard and sleep during the day), what treatment is used to shift

> it back?

>

> 5) From what stages of adrenal fatigue can people recover by simply

> reducing stress...without the use of any meds or supplements? Stage

> 1 only?

>

> 6) What, in your experience, in the single biggest impediment that

> patients face in getting well?

>

> 7) What percentage of patients enjoy a full recovery using your

> protocol?

>

> 8) Why is it that my saliva test (and my symptoms) are so compelling

> that I have adrenal fatigue, yet I didn't respond to even relatively

> large (30 mg/day) doses of HC? Did I not give it sufficient time?

>

> 9) If Isocort contains hormones, why is this recommended rather than

> HC?

>

> 10) What is it about an ACTH Stim test that can yield false negative

> or false positive results? Why doesn't it catch hypo-functioning

> adrenia in many cases? It seems like a no-brainer to stimulate the

> adrenals and see if they respond. Where is the flaw in the

> reasoning that an ACTH Stim test is the only way to " properly "

> detect underfunctioning adrenals?

>

> --Steve

>

September 21, 2006

>> In spite of the fact that this

action can produce dramatic initial improvements in your symptoms,

these symptomatic improvements come with a heavy price. " <<

And this is one of the reasons I dislike this man's book. He refuses to

acknowledge the fact that many people are getting WELL using HC and other

steroids for treating adrenal fatigue. I have no doubt his methods have merit,

but there is a place for replacing missing cortisol in this treatment, and many

of us would spend YEARS as opposed to months on this protocol and then there

will still be some that even after years on this extracts protocol that will not

improve. And where is the heavy price? I certainly feel no price from the 18

months I was on HC. I feel nothing but better. While I realize some people may

need HC for life, maybe these same people could suffer 5-10 years on extracts

and still find they need HC for life at that point. Sorry I don;t have another

5-10 years of feeling rotten to give.

--

Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

My Ebay Jewelry Store http://stores.ebay.com/valeriescrystalcreations

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

September 21, 2006

What book is this? Also, ACTH will not likely be suppressed by

physiological levels of cortisol, it just won't be elevated.

It is kinda like estrogen replacement. FSH will be elevated and lowered

when using estrogen. That is just the natural feedback loop. We would not

want high FSH or ACTH so I don't see a problem with this suppression.

-- Re: Re: I've been wondering...

>> In spite of the fact that this

action can produce dramatic initial improvements in your symptoms,

these symptomatic improvements come with a heavy price. " <<

And this is one of the reasons I dislike this man's book. He refuses to

acknowledge the fact that many people are getting WELL using HC and other

steroids for treating adrenal fatigue. I have no doubt his methods have

merit, but there is a place for replacing missing cortisol in this treatment

and many of us would spend YEARS as opposed to months on this protocol and

then there will still be some that even after years on this extracts

protocol that will not improve. And where is the heavy price? I certainly

feel no price from the 18 months I was on HC. I feel nothing but better.

While I realize some people may need HC for life, maybe these same people

could suffer 5-10 years on extracts and still find they need HC for life at

that point. Sorry I don;t have another 5-10 years of feeling rotten to give.

--

Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

My Ebay Jewelry Store http://stores.ebay.com/valeriescrystalcreations

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

September 21, 2006

nevermind, I see the book reference.

-- Re: I've been wondering...

>

> All,

>

> I am slated to talk to my ND in another week or so, and have a list

> of 10 questions I intend to ask him. I'll post what I learn for the

> benefit of all. In the meantime, I'm guessing many of you have

> similar questions...

>

Hi Steve,

I am new here and quite the neophyte! I'm doing my best to learn all

I can and I'm looking forward to the answers your ND provides you. In

the meantime, may I share a bit of information from the book " Adrenal

Fatigue The 21st Century Stress Syndrome " by L. , ND, DC,

PhD with you? He has an 8-page chapter entitled " Adrenal Cell

Extracts " in which he gives the history of the use of these items --

going back to 1898.

Here's an excerpt from page 211:

" Adrenal Cortical Extracts

Also known as adrenal cell extracts, adrenal cortical extracts are the

liquid or powder extracts of the adrenal cortex. Their action is to

support, fortify and restore normal adrenal function, there by

enhancing adrenal activity and speeding recovery. Adrenal cell

extracts are not replacement hormones, but instead provide the

essential constituents for adrenal repair. They include all the

adrenal cell contents, such as nucleic acids (adrenal cell RNA and

DNA) and concentrated nutrients in the form and proportion used by the

adrenals to properly function and recover, but contain only tiny

amounts of the actual hormones in the adrenal gland. "

Here's an excerpt from page 212:

" Cortisol vs. Adrenal Cell Extracts

It is important to understand the difference between adrenal cell

exracts and natural or synthetic cortisol and cortisol type steroids

such as cortisone, prednisone, prednisolone and many other forms of

adrenal steroid hormones. Adrenal cell extracts nourish and help

rebuild your adrenal cells. As these cells recover, they can once

again produce the proper amount of the various hormones needed for the

many functions performed by your adrenal glands. By this means they

tend to normalize adrenal function. In contrast, corticosteroids,

whether natural or synthetic, tend to reduce or shut down the activity

of your adrenal glands. This happens because your brain senses the

presence of these cortisol substitutes and, in response, withholds the

signal (ACTH) it would otherwise send to your adrenal glands to make

more adrenal hormones. Thus corticosteroids suppress the functions of

your adrenal glands, over-riding the normal feed back loops that

regulate and balance adrenal hormones. In spite of the fact that this

action can produce dramatic initial improvements in your symptoms,

these symptomatic improvements come with a heavy price. "

I hope this sheds a bit of light for you.

Dana

September 21, 2006

>

>>

> And this is one of the reasons I dislike this man's book. He

refuses to acknowledge the fact that many people are getting WELL

using HC and other steroids for treating adrenal fatigue.

Hi Val,

Let me add to what I've shared so a more complete picture of Dr.

's approach is revealed.

From page 214:

" If corticosteroid therapy is necessary, it is best to use the

natural form of cortisol, hydrocortisone, available by

prescription. Even though this natural hormone also diminishes or

shuts down the adrenals while it is being taken and for several

weeks after it is discontinued, it can be used effectively as a

therapy for severe adrenal fatigue. When administered in

physiological doese of approximately 20 mg per day to emulate the

natural daily secretion of cortisol, it can give the adrenals a rest

for a period of time, thereby providing an opportunity to recover. "

From page 218:

" Cortisol Combined with Adrenal Cell Extracts

In several cases, natural cortisol has been taken simultaneously

with adnrenal cell extracts. This regimen for severe hypoadrenia

often allows the adrenals to rest and rebuild much faster than with

either therapy alone. After 2-3 months on both cortisol and adrenal

extracts, the daily dose of cortisol is slowly withdrawn while a

vatmin C complex, the adrenal cell extracts and other supplements

are increased. This allows the adrenal glands to recover more

quickly and to strengthen enough that when the cortisol is

discontinued, the adrenals can function adequately on their own.

For people with severe adrenal fatigue, and even some cases of

's disease, this can be a very satisfactory combination

therapy. "

If I understand Dr. , I think he's opposed to synthetic

corticosteroids.

I've read enough group messages to know you are absolutely the voice

of experience on this issue! I defer to your wisdom.

Dana

September 21, 2006

Yes but he encourages people to literally waste years trying the

extracts even when their labs show stage 5+ adrenal fatigue. To me the

equation is this:

Suffer 5 years maybe heal adrenals maybe have to resort to HC which it

may then be too late for healing

verses:

Feel decent for up to 2 years on HC while your adrenal s have a very

good chance of healing.

No contest that I can see.

--

Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

My Ebay Jewelry Store http://stores.ebay.com/valeriescrystalcreations

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

September 21, 2006

Thanks Dana. I have that book, but managed to either forget that

part or miss it. That at least explains the theory behind taking

the hormone-free glandulars.

Still strikes me as strange that to rebuild the adrenal, you

would " eat " adrenals. But perhaps no more strange than eating

animal muscles to rebuild our muscles.

--Steve

> >

> > All,

> >

> > I am slated to talk to my ND in another week or so, and have a

list

> > of 10 questions I intend to ask him. I'll post what I learn for

the

> > benefit of all. In the meantime, I'm guessing many of you have

> > similar questions...

> >

> Hi Steve,

>

> I am new here and quite the neophyte! I'm doing my best to learn

all

> I can and I'm looking forward to the answers your ND provides

you. In

> the meantime, may I share a bit of information from the

book " Adrenal

> Fatigue The 21st Century Stress Syndrome " by L. , ND,

DC,

> PhD with you? He has an 8-page chapter entitled " Adrenal Cell

> Extracts " in which he gives the history of the use of these items -

-

> going back to 1898.

>

> Here's an excerpt from page 211:

>

> " Adrenal Cortical Extracts

> Also known as adrenal cell extracts, adrenal cortical extracts are

the

> liquid or powder extracts of the adrenal cortex. Their action is

to

> support, fortify and restore normal adrenal function, there by

> enhancing adrenal activity and speeding recovery. Adrenal cell

> extracts are not replacement hormones, but instead provide the

> essential constituents for adrenal repair. They include all the

> adrenal cell contents, such as nucleic acids (adrenal cell RNA and

> DNA) and concentrated nutrients in the form and proportion used by

the

> adrenals to properly function and recover, but contain only tiny

> amounts of the actual hormones in the adrenal gland. "

>

> Here's an excerpt from page 212:

>

> " Cortisol vs. Adrenal Cell Extracts

> It is important to understand the difference between adrenal cell

> exracts and natural or synthetic cortisol and cortisol type

steroids

> such as cortisone, prednisone, prednisolone and many other forms

of

> adrenal steroid hormones. Adrenal cell extracts nourish and help

> rebuild your adrenal cells. As these cells recover, they can once

> again produce the proper amount of the various hormones needed for

the

> many functions performed by your adrenal glands. By this means

they

> tend to normalize adrenal function. In contrast, corticosteroids,

> whether natural or synthetic, tend to reduce or shut down the

activity

> of your adrenal glands. This happens because your brain senses

the

> presence of these cortisol substitutes and, in response, withholds

the

> signal (ACTH) it would otherwise send to your adrenal glands to

make

> more adrenal hormones. Thus corticosteroids suppress the

functions of

> your adrenal glands, over-riding the normal feed back loops that

> regulate and balance adrenal hormones. In spite of the fact that

this

> action can produce dramatic initial improvements in your symptoms,

> these symptomatic improvements come with a heavy price. "

>

> I hope this sheds a bit of light for you.

>

> Dana

>

September 25, 2006

>

> All,

>

> I am slated to talk to my ND in another week or so, and have a

> list of 10 questions I intend to ask him. I'll post what I learn

> for the benefit of all. In the meantime, I'm guessing many of you

> have similar questions...

All,

Further to my earliest post dated Sept 19th with my " top 10 "

questions, I talked to my ND today. Here's his reply to all of the

questions I remembered to ask (I didn't have my list with me at the

time).

Q1) If you fail to respond to hydrocortisone, is this de-facto proof

that you DON'T have adrenal fatigue? Or is a saliva test a more

sure-fire way to confirm/deny the diagnosis? Are some people " slow

reactors " who can take a month or more to respond to HC therapy?

A1) HC undoubtedly has an effect on your adrenals and HPA axis, but

we all respond somewhat differently. A failure to respond to HC

after a few weeks is not defacto proof that the AF diagnosis was

false. The saliva test combined with your symptoms is a far more

objective, compelling, and quantitative measure.

Q2) What is the difference between " glandulars " and Adrenal Corticol

Extract (ACE)? Some have hormones, and some do not. What is the

purpose of taking both? Is IsoCort considered an ACE? What is it

about non-hormonal glandulars that is supposed to be beneficial? If

my heart is weak, I don't go home and eat heart/lungs. Why is it

then that ingesting adrenal tissues is recommended for rebuilding my

own?

A2) " Glandulars " contain all part of the gland...cortex and medula.

They are intended primarily as " food " for your adrenals. Adernal

Corticol Extracts contain only the cortex, and are considerably more

concentrated. They contains a higher percentage of the hormones.

Isocort is an ACE. Non-ACE glandulars focus on rebuilding your

adrenals, while ACE provides a similar purpose but is more

concentrated and also supplies a complex mix of the 30+ hormones

your adrenals manufacture...not just cortisol.

Q3) What percentage of people get better on the glandulars? What is

it about HC that causes you to avoid it except in the most extreme

circumstances?

A3) As to percentages the get better, see A7. If people use

glandulars alone without addressing lifestyle/stress issues, very

few recover. The reason we avoid HC is because *so* many people

seem to have such a hard time getting off of it. We don't encounter

the same withdrawl problems with glandulars. Glandulars work, but

they take longer, and they don't have associated withdrawl issues to

the degree that HC does.

Q4) If someone has elevated PM cortisol levels, how is this treated.

Or, if their circadian rhythm is shifted (such as they work

graveyard and sleep during the day), what treatment is used to shift

it back?

A4) A product called Seriphos is used. It helps lower cortisol

levels. (I forgot to ask about " shifting " circadian rhythms.)

Q5) From what stages of adrenal fatigue can people recover by simply

reducing stress...without the use of any meds or supplements? Stage

1 only?

A5) Forgot to ask...sorry!

Q6) What, in your experience, in the single biggest impediment that

patients face in getting well?

A6) Failure to deal with stress and FAMILY. Family is often the

single biggest source of stress because they do not understand the

nature of AF and just want the affected person to " snap out of it "

after a few weeks or months. They are well-meaning and keep

asking " are you better yet? " which only serves to add stress to the

AF sufferer.

Q7) What percentage of patients enjoy a full recovery using your

protocol?

A7) IF they fully address the stresses that put them in AF in the

first place AND they follow the supplement protocol, the recovery

success rate is 95%.

Q8) Why is it that my saliva test (and my symptoms) are so compelling

that I have adrenal fatigue, yet I didn't respond to even relatively

large (30 mg/day) doses of HC? Did I not give it sufficient time?

A8) See A1.

Q9) If Isocort contains hormones, why is this recommended rather than

HC?

A9) Because it contains *all* of the hormones in the adrenal cortex

in the correct proportions...not just cortisol. We believe that if

nature put all 30+ in there, it did so for a reason...even if they

are only in trace amounts. Also, we do not prescribe Isocort in

dosages that approach the 20-30 mg/day that most people on HC are

at. Isocort plays both a nutritional role and a hormone supplement

role in AF treatment. HC plays only a hormone supplement role.

Q10) What is it about an ACTH Stim test that can yield false negative

or false positive results? Why doesn't it catch hypo-functioning

adrenia in many cases? It seems like a no-brainer to stimulate the

adrenals and see if they respond. Where is the flaw in the

reasoning that an ACTH Stim test is the only way to " properly "

detect underfunctioning adrenals?

A10) Forgot to ask!

--Steve

September 25, 2006

Hi Steve,

Thanks so much for sharing your Q & A session.

I have a dificult time falling and staying asleep at night. I suspect a high

bed-time cortisol level.

What is the product he mentioned, Seriphos?

Thanks & Love,

Pamela

Steve wrote: