Re: Where are the Paramedics?

[Guest guest]

Just an observation about education for the group. I have been looking

through the job ads and do not recall seeing an ad that paid in the

neighborhood of $40,000 for a medic fresh out of school, liscensed or

certified. Services offering that level of money are looking for medics that

have at least one year of experience and have taken additional classes such

as PALS and PHTLS to name only two. It appears to me that increased

education does increase salary. Even without an increase in pay, I feel

these classes allow me to give my patients a higher level of care. Isn't

that what its all about. If we want to be recognized more as professionals

than we are now we will have to be more professional in our level of

education, the way we perform our job, and the way we present ourselves to

the public and other medical professionals. Until we do this we can expect

no increase in salaries or recognition from the medical community.

Ronnie Brown EMT-P

[Guest guest]

actually the starting hourly rate ~13/hr is about average here; we attract

most medics because of agressive treatment and service that is fairly user

friendly. several surrounding counties start paramedics at higher rate.

btw $12.8659 is for no experience just out of school.

john

> Re: [texasems-L] Where are the Paramedics?

> >

> >

> > I usually keep my mouth shut and don't say anything but........... I

> just

> > spent 3

> > hours helping a student so she could transfer from another college

> because

> > she

> > wants a degree in EMS. I have seen a significant increase in the amount

> of

> > students registering for credit rather than non credit EMS classes. The

> > breakdown

> > I have so far (folks are still registering) is this:

> > credit non-credit

> > Basic: 22 4

> > EMIT: 5 1

> > Par: 5 1

> >

> > Now I want to address some comments Jeff made.

> > 1. I do not think you should have to go through a 4 year or even two

> years

> > of

> > college to be a paramedic.

> > WE: you don't

> >

> > 2. Who in thier right mind would go through 2 or 4 years of college for

> a

> > job

> > that pays as little or less than

> > the local Mcs.

> > WE: Well look at the numbers and you see there a few that think an

> > education is

> > worth their time, money and effort. After all, they probably won't be on

> a

> > truck

> > forever but with an educational background they can be your boss.

> Students

> > tell

> > me that they take the A & P classes so they can understand the human body

> > better.

> > If they know what the body is doing or suppose to do in a situation,

> they

> > may be

> > better prepared to prevent a person from getting worse on them. They

> take

> > computer classes so they will be able to type their reports. They take

> > English

> > classes so they can communicate better with others and write concise

> > reports.

> > They take Psychology classes to better understand others. They take EMS

> > classes

> > because they care.

> >

> > 3. I think if we are going to raise the standards we should raise the

> pay

> > first

> > and then work on the education part of it.

> > WE: This is a part of the problem now. It's like a student once said to

> > me, " I

> > paid my money for paramedic class so I should get a course completion

> > certificate. " WRONG! Just because I want a raise doesn't mean I'll get

> > one. How

> > many nurses would there be if the pay for them was the same as a

> > paramedic? I'm

> > thinking not much. If we want we pay we NEED to have the education. It's

> > taken

> > nursing a long time to get where they are and with attitudes like this I

> > don't

> > know if we will ever see EMS as a profession.

> >

> > Well I'll get off my rant. Jeff I have nothing personal against you,

> just

> > the

> > attitude.

> >

> > Eddie

> >

> > By the way Jeff, you are welcome to come to any of my classes and ask my

> > students

> > way they are pursuing a degree in EMS.

> > jple928228@... wrote:

> >

> > >

> > >

> > > I just have a couple of things to touch on! I do not think you should

> > have

> > > to go through a 4 year or even two years of college to be a paramedic.

> > Let

> > > me ask you this What can you do as a medic after an AAS that I as a

> > medic can

> > > do with just my completion course. I realize that we are trying to

> > raise the

> > > standards of EMS and I hope and pray that we get that done, but

> > personnally I

> > > think we are going about it the wrong way. Who in thier right mind

> > would go

> > > through 2 or 4 years of college for a job that pays as little or less

> > than

> > > the local Mcs. I think if we are going to raise the standards

> we

> > > should raise the pay first and then work on the education part of it.

> > That

> > > is just my opinion.

> > > Jeff

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

and if you remain negative like that....that is how the profession will remain

Jim, EMT-I, 91B18D

jple928228@... wrote:

>

> I understand this and I would be willing to go to school but when I got out

> of school I believe there would be no change. I would still be the same old

> ambulance driver that just wasted thousands of dollars going to get an AAS or

> BS for nothing.

[Guest guest]

Gene,

Can I hire you to lobby the politicians and citizens in my county? Most of

them don't even think we need an ambulance service, yet alone one they have

to pay MORE to receive, in order to PAY for people to work there.

Unfortunately, ignorance is bliss... " I don't get sick, why do I need to go

to the Doctor " has been replaced with " I NEVER get hurt, and we live way out

here in the country. We don't have accidents any worse than fender benders.

Why do we need them fancy Paramedics? "

Unfortunately, these people don't remember the 5 people that died west of

town in a head-on with fire. The woman that died after the car she was

riding in struck a culvert at high speed. The guy that got nasally

intubated after a bad wreck that recently required AirLife.

How many times have we called out the choppers? How many times have we run

a 12-lead because we KNEW we were working an active MI?

People forget, people don't care. " It ain't gonna happen to me! " is the

battlecry.

Sorry brother, you're DEAD WRONG! It will happen to YOU! You, Mr. Q.

Public, will need EMS someday. YOu will need us, and we may not be there.

We are getting older in the volunteer ranks, the young folks are moving to

the big city for REAL jobs. The city folks moving to the county and

commuting to the city don't care or don't have the time, or " don't want to

do your job " .

The services are both are fighting to keep and recruit volunteers. One is

begging for enough funding to maintain and expand the paid staff on hand.

I volunteer, and will continue to volunteer until I die, or get paid,

because I care about the people who don't care about us, who don't want us,

and especially for the people who love us, who did and do need us.

I volunteer because if I didn't, and if everyone else didn't, someone would

die. I won't allow that to happen because of ignorance or lack of concern

on the part of those we serve. For twenty years, that is how I have felt.

For the next twenty years I will still feel that way.

Barry McClung, EMT-P

[Guest guest]

Barry,

We've been doing this EMS thing for 30 years, and still, most people

just want a fast ride to the hospital. If you carry O2 that's even

better!

Despite statements like, " I'll never need an ambulance " , you and I know

that when you clutch your chest gasping for air ... you'll give

everything you own just to know that you'll see the sun come up

tomorrow. Another problem is the widespread belief that, " when it's your

time to go ... it's your time to go " . Imagine someone saying (when their

house is on fire), " Well, I guess it was time for my house to burn to

ashes " . People don't have the same opinion of the fire service.

Another problem we have lies in proving that what we do has any

beneficial effect (See: lack of randomized controlled trials). Without a

firm scientific foundation it's difficult to " sell " people on the value

of EMS. And yet, we are the people who should be developing the research

models and publishing peer-reviewed clinical findings.

BUT, remember that the majority doesn't want more education! I'll bet

that 99.999% of all EMS personnel couldn't construct a research model if

they had a gun held to their head.

So which comes first (chichen vs. egg):

* The public doesn't care about EMS.

* We don't want any further educational requirements.

* We lack the education to construct RCT activities.

* We want to be recognized as professionals.

* We deserve higher pay for what we do.

* We can't prove that what we do " works " .

* It's hard to get funding for anything in EMS.

Can you see the cycle here? We've been in it for 30 years!

Bob Kellow

Barry E. McClung wrote:

>

>

> Gene,

>

> Can I hire you to lobby the politicians and citizens in my county? Most of

> them don't even think we need an ambulance service, yet alone one they have

> to pay MORE to receive, in order to PAY for people to work there.

>

> Unfortunately, ignorance is bliss... " I don't get sick, why do I need to go

> to the Doctor " has been replaced with " I NEVER get hurt, and we live way out

> here in the country. We don't have accidents any worse than fender benders.

> Why do we need them fancy Paramedics? "

>

> Unfortunately, these people don't remember the 5 people that died west of

> town in a head-on with fire. The woman that died after the car she was

> riding in struck a culvert at high speed. The guy that got nasally

> intubated after a bad wreck that recently required AirLife.

>

> How many times have we called out the choppers? How many times have we run

> a 12-lead because we KNEW we were working an active MI?

>

> People forget, people don't care. " It ain't gonna happen to me! " is the

> battlecry.

>

> Sorry brother, you're DEAD WRONG! It will happen to YOU! You, Mr. Q.

> Public, will need EMS someday. YOu will need us, and we may not be there.

> We are getting older in the volunteer ranks, the young folks are moving to

> the big city for REAL jobs. The city folks moving to the county and

> commuting to the city don't care or don't have the time, or " don't want to

> do your job " .

>

> The services are both are fighting to keep and recruit volunteers. One is

> begging for enough funding to maintain and expand the paid staff on hand.

>

> I volunteer, and will continue to volunteer until I die, or get paid,

> because I care about the people who don't care about us, who don't want us,

> and especially for the people who love us, who did and do need us.

>

I volunteer because if I didn't, and if everyone else didn't, someone

would

> die. I won't allow that to happen because of ignorance or lack of concern

> on the part of those we serve. For twenty years, that is how I have felt.

> For the next twenty years I will still feel that way.

>

> Barry McClung, EMT-P

[Guest guest]

Bless you, Barry!!!!

This whole volunteer vs. paid discussion is like a really bad case of deja

vu--been through it all before, haven't we! There are very few fields or

professions (including the medical professions) that do not have folks who

volunteer their time in some way. From the local PTA to international

organizations like the Red Cross, volunteers are contributing thousands of

hours of their time every day to try to make this world a better place. If

this volunteer/paid argument is carried to the extreme, it could be said

that every one of those volunteers is causing someone else to be without a

job. After all, if someone wasn't volunteering then someone would have to

be paid to do the same work. Personally, I don't know that we (collectively

or as individuals--my taxes are high enough, thank you) could afford for all

of the volunteers to quit volunteering.

I intended to keep my mouth shut, so to speak, in this current discussion

about volunteers, but I just couldn't. There's nothing that gets this paid

person's dander up faster than for folks to knock the efforts of volunteers.

Been there, done that, paid now, but still depend on the volunteers and love

them to death!

Maxine

----- Original Message -----

>

> I volunteer, and will continue to volunteer until I die, or get paid,

> because I care about the people who don't care about us, who don't want

us,

> and especially for the people who love us, who did and do need us.

>

> I volunteer because if I didn't, and if everyone else didn't, someone

would

> die. I won't allow that to happen because of ignorance or lack of concern

> on the part of those we serve. For twenty years, that is how I have felt.

> For the next twenty years I will still feel that way.

>

> Barry McClung, EMT-P

[Guest guest]

That hit the nail right on the head, Bob. In fact, it ran it right through

the board and out the other side.

Barry McClung, EMT-P

[Guest guest]

,

Where are you located?

JD

Re: [texasems-L] Where are the Paramedics?

> >

> >

> > I usually keep my mouth shut and don't say anything but........... I

> just

> > spent 3

> > hours helping a student so she could transfer from another college

> because

> > she

> > wants a degree in EMS. I have seen a significant increase in the amount

> of

> > students registering for credit rather than non credit EMS classes. The

> > breakdown

> > I have so far (folks are still registering) is this:

> > credit non-credit

> > Basic: 22 4

> > EMIT: 5 1

> > Par: 5 1

> >

> > Now I want to address some comments Jeff made.

> > 1. I do not think you should have to go through a 4 year or even two

> years

> > of

> > college to be a paramedic.

> > WE: you don't

> >

> > 2. Who in thier right mind would go through 2 or 4 years of college for

> a

> > job

> > that pays as little or less than

> > the local Mcs.

> > WE: Well look at the numbers and you see there a few that think an

> > education is

> > worth their time, money and effort. After all, they probably won't be on

> a

> > truck

> > forever but with an educational background they can be your boss.

> Students

> > tell

> > me that they take the A & P classes so they can understand the human body

> > better.

> > If they know what the body is doing or suppose to do in a situation,

> they

> > may be

> > better prepared to prevent a person from getting worse on them. They

> take

> > computer classes so they will be able to type their reports. They take

> > English

> > classes so they can communicate better with others and write concise

> > reports.

> > They take Psychology classes to better understand others. They take EMS

> > classes

> > because they care.

> >

> > 3. I think if we are going to raise the standards we should raise the

> pay

> > first

> > and then work on the education part of it.

> > WE: This is a part of the problem now. It's like a student once said to

> > me, " I

> > paid my money for paramedic class so I should get a course completion

> > certificate. " WRONG! Just because I want a raise doesn't mean I'll get

> > one. How

> > many nurses would there be if the pay for them was the same as a

> > paramedic? I'm

> > thinking not much. If we want we pay we NEED to have the education. It's

> > taken

> > nursing a long time to get where they are and with attitudes like this I

> > don't

> > know if we will ever see EMS as a profession.

> >

> > Well I'll get off my rant. Jeff I have nothing personal against you,

> just

> > the

> > attitude.

> >

> > Eddie

> >

> > By the way Jeff, you are welcome to come to any of my classes and ask my

> > students

> > way they are pursuing a degree in EMS.

> > jple928228@... wrote:

> >

> > >

> > >

> > > I just have a couple of things to touch on! I do not think you should

> > have

> > > to go through a 4 year or even two years of college to be a paramedic.

> > Let

> > > me ask you this What can you do as a medic after an AAS that I as a

> > medic can

> > > do with just my completion course. I realize that we are trying to

> > raise the

> > > standards of EMS and I hope and pray that we get that done, but

> > personnally I

> > > think we are going about it the wrong way. Who in thier right mind

> > would go

> > > through 2 or 4 years of college for a job that pays as little or less

> > than

> > > the local Mcs. I think if we are going to raise the standards

> we

> > > should raise the pay first and then work on the education part of it.

> > That

> > > is just my opinion.

> > > Jeff

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Barry,

The reason it sailed through the group is because it's easier to bitch

and defend - than it is to think. Nothing will change until we are able

to out-think this problem. And, to out-think the problem and derive and

implement effective solutions we have to possess the intellectual

assets.

As an industry, we continue to resonate on a closed frequency - unheard

by the rest of the world. Perhaps if we agree to use their frequency

(AKA higher learning) we can move off of high center. I have my doubts.

Most folks are more interested in unleashing a fusillade of insults or

issuing territorial manifesto's.

Bob Kellow

Barry E. McClung wrote:

>

>

> That hit the nail right on the head, Bob. In fact, it ran it right through

> the board and out the other side.

>

> Barry McClung, EMT-P

[Guest guest]

Calhoun county pays $2,641 a year more to become licensed. When we catch

up with the higher salaries, the licensed medic in our department will

continue to make more per year because of the higher education and

licensure.

Henry

I know that others are also paying more for licensure.

jple928228@... wrote:

>

>

[eGroups] My Groups | Main Page | Start a new

group!

>

> Thank you for your input, but you still do not catch my drift. To put

> it

> simply this is how I feel: Show me where LP's are making more money

> and then

> I will see where it is worth the money to go to school and further my

> education. The way I look at it is the colleges are just wanting

> money so

> they decided to try and get their foot in the door and put their hands

> in our

> pockets and they care nothing about raising the standards of EMS they

> care

> about raising the standards of their college and their paychecks!

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 08/30/2000 05:29:07 PM Central Daylight Time,

paramedic1@... writes:

<< ----------------------------------------------------------------->

Why do physicians get degrees? And why are there degrees? Should we not

all just

get the minimum education we can, and don't say education, say training?

Minimal

trade schools is all we need. Shoot, since most physicians don't do much

more

than prescribe drugs anyway, wouldn't a year or so of direct training do for

them? And surgeons, how much is there to learn cutting anyway? And

teachers?

Heck, they're mostly paper pushers anyway.

And heck, as far as that goes, any school can teach anything with a book. So

let's have the same teachers for Paramedics, auto mechanics, refrigeration,

electronics, etc.

And while we're at it, let's ask for LOTS more money, since we've put so much

into learning our profession. I " m SURE the powers that be will buy that.

=Steve=

jple928228@... wrote:

>

> I just have a couple of things to touch on! I do not think you should have

> to go through a 4 year or even two years of college to be a paramedic. Let

> me ask you this What can you do as a medic after an AAS that I as a medic

can

> do with just my completion course. I realize that we are trying to raise

the

> standards of EMS and I hope and pray that we get that done, but personally

I

> think we are going about it the wrong way. Who in their right mind would

go

> through 2 or 4 years of college for a job that pays as little or less than

> the local Mcs. I think if we are going to raise the standards we

> should raise the pay first and then work on the education part of it. That

> is just my opinion.

> Jeff

--

P. , CCP, EMT-P

Instructor Trainer NSC, AHA, ASHI

SPT Enterprises, Inc.

PO Box 294136

ville, TX 75029-4136

Phone

>>

What a dreadful comparison. I don't think we want to start comparing my

degree with some of what you are referring to. This is not apples to apples.

Hell, I have people working for me without a degree that make 3 times more

than some teachers I know. I also know some Doctors that make hundreds of

thousands of dollars, I would not let touch me.

Besides, you have always had to have a degree to be a Doctor. Sometimes

people get too many letters after their names and they just start charging

money for things.

Andy Foote, EMTP

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 08/30/2000 05:57:19 PM Central Daylight Time,

jple928228@... writes:

<< Show me where LP's are making more money and then

I will see where it is worth the money to go to school and further my

education. >>

They make more money just about everywhere I know. At least a couple

thousand a year more.

Andy Foote, EMTP

[Guest guest]

Steve,

This is in no way meant to be a slam a against you personally. I belive

what you had to say was ludicrious at least. I feel that the hostility in

your opnion could only be because of a lack of understanding your self.

First of all physicians, and surgeons, do alot more than write prescriptions

and cutt on people all day long. Most of them are dedicated individuals whom

spend a vast amount of thier time interacting and getting to know those that

they treat. Secondly, as for the teachers and such if we were to just get

rid of them, whom exactly would shape and mold the youth of America today,

You. Without a strong influence of dedicated induviduals, some with

higer degrees of education, and others without, this world would fall apart.

[Guest guest]

Exactly. My point exactly. There is more to education, more to patient care,

more to teaching, than to learn the very few skills one applies on a regular

basis.

Ludicrous? Of Course it is! Similarly ludicrous is any statement like " I don't

need no education. It's not making me more money today, so I don't need no

stinkin' education " . That is my point. You have to learn constantly, and you

have to learn broadly, to make yourself more valuable to yourself, society, and

ultimately an employer.

=Steve=

EMTP04@... wrote:

>

> Steve,

>

> This is in no way meant to be a slam a against you personally. I belive

> what you had to say was ludicrious at least. I feel that the hostility in

> your opnion could only be because of a lack of understanding your self.

> First of all physicians, and surgeons, do alot more than write prescriptions

> and cutt on people all day long. Most of them are dedicated individuals whom

> spend a vast amount of thier time interacting and getting to know those that

> they treat. Secondly, as for the teachers and such if we were to just get

> rid of them, whom exactly would shape and mold the youth of America today,

> You. Without a strong influence of dedicated induviduals, some with

> higer degrees of education, and others without, this world would fall apart.

>

>

--

P. , CCP, EMT-P

Instructor Trainer NSC, AHA, ASHI

SPT Enterprises, Inc.

PO Box 294136

ville, TX 75029-4136

Phone

[Guest guest]

Andy:

Just an aside, you are wrong about it having always been necessary to have a

degree to become a doctor. I can't recall the reference now, but there was

an article not long back that mentioned less than 50% of physicians had any

college background at the turn of the century (last one). As I understand

it, more than a few of the medical schools operating at that time were more

like today's trade schools than like college professional degree programs.

Let's jump back even further. During most of the last thousand years,

physicians were uneducated, untrained butchers who had little idea of what

they were doing and who were consulted mostly as a last recourse. The

original middle-age surgeons were barbers. This only changed in the middle

1700s. Before that time, you were much better off going to the local witch

woman, who usually had done a great deal of empirical study of disease and

of the benefits of various natural medicines. In fact, one story suggests

that the original concept of witches touted by the catholic church and the

characteristics used to identify them (to say nothing of what was done to

alleged witches) was as a result of conspiracy between church officials and

some of those early physicians to eliminate the competition offered by the

herbalists. Most physicians during the days of republican and imperial Rome

were slaves and were held in relatively poor repute, with few noticable

exceptions. Most of them were graduates of Greek medical schools who sold

themselves into slavery to obtain a position because they weren't exactly

top-of-the-class. Even the term, doctor, was something physicians

appropriated from the great philosophical schools of ancient Greece as a way

to improve the status of their members in society. At that time, the title

was held by those members of the philosophical schools who had achieved

mastery and leadership in their college (doesn't mean the same thing now, a

college meant something more like a brotherhood or fraternity in those

days). These men were highly respected and acclaimed by the Greek citizens.

Physicians of the day appropriated the title for themselves in hope some of

the status and social respect would rub off on them. It did, but it didn't

last.

The point? DurnifIknow, but I have to do something with all those history

classes I've taken over the years.

Dave

> What a dreadful comparison. I don't think we want to start comparing my

> degree with some of what you are referring to. This is not apples to

apples.

> Hell, I have people working for me without a degree that make 3 times

more

> than some teachers I know. I also know some Doctors that make hundreds of

> thousands of dollars, I would not let touch me.

>

> Besides, you have always had to have a degree to be a Doctor. Sometimes

> people get too many letters after their names and they just start charging

> money for things.

>

> Andy Foote, EMTP

>

>

>

>