Re: Update on Disturbing Case from Houston

August 1, 2000

In a message dated 08/01/2000 12:25:04 PM Central Daylight Time,

scapuchino@... writes:

<<

What about the Fire CHief? I strongly believe he need s to go too. 3

separate incidents and all they have done is fire the medics. This is

too common. He needs to be held accountable as well. Perhaps he should

step down.

>>

While all of us believe in accountability, and yes, I do know that a life was

lost, even a Doctor who loses a malpractice suit gets to go on and practice

another day. I believe that a firefighter with an impeccable record, 2

months short of retirement, should not lose his entire pension. I have a

feeling that I will not be the only one either, that thinks this way. No way

he, nor his superiors, should go unpunished. There is a lawsuit pending and

other punishments available. These are my opinions and mine alone.

The Medical Director and those under him, have a huge amount of

accountability for their people. Chiefs, Capts., QA and QC all play a big

part in the line of responsibility. Waiting to see what else comes

down..............

Andy Foote, EMTP

August 1, 2000

Please remove me from this subscription list. Thank you.

napper285

August 1, 2000

Okay, the following is MY OPINION.

It sounds as though the system failed. Unfortunatly the American response to

failure is to fire/kill the failing person (killing currently being frowned

upon it is generally firing), using said fired person as the 'scape goat',

and closing the issue by claiming the situation as been corrected. *BUZZ*

Not the right answer.

Yes, if this guy screwed up big time he needs disciplinary action. But ONE

failure in 20 years, come-on, that is NOT worth termination over. Maybe loss

of wages, demotion, LOTS of EMT remediation, but not termination and loss of

pension.

The BIG thing that needs to occur here is that HFD needs to find out HOW the

system failed and fix the failure point. Is the failure point lack of

training? Is the failure point unclear protocols? Is the failure point

inability to communicate with the patient? I don't know. But I suspect the

ACTUAL problem will probably not be fixed, the fire-fighter will get his

pension back, and the other two medics will get reinstated once this 'quiets

down'. But then again, I am a cynic (sp) who thinks the worst of everything.

At least I always get pleasant surprises. =)

Webb....ah, you all know what I am where I work by now.

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August 1, 2000

What about the Fire CHief? I strongly believe he need s to go too. 3

separate incidents and all they have done is fire the medics. This is

too common. He needs to be held accountable as well. Perhaps he should

step down.

On Tue, 1 Aug 2000 11:47:50 EDT wegandy@... writes:

> Houston FD has fired a 20 year veteran firefighter/EMT and taken away

> his

> pension as a result of the failure to properly deal with the 12 year

> old

> patient who later died of an aneurism. The fire chief described the

> reason

> for the firing of the FF/EMT with an otherwise spotless record as

> " complacency. " The report outlined failure to follow guidelines.

> It is

> ironic that the FF/EMT fired was the only Spanish speaking FF

> present. The

> FF/EMT will appeal the dismissal, according to the news article.

>

> This is the 3rd firefighter to be fired recently over patient care

> issues.

> Two more were fired for a previous and separate incident.

>

> To read the latest newspaper article go to HoustonChronicle.com.

>

> Gene Gandy, JD, LP

> " Just the messenger. "

>

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August 1, 2000

Everyone loses in this case. It never fails one screw up and everyone will pay.

It's not fair, but that's the way it is. We are held to a higher standard by

choice of our own. These things happen all the time in this country ,and

shouldn't be rewarded with retirement . The medics still haven't had their

appeal heard. Time will tell. This one just hopefully gave everyone a wake up

call, and a strong message. The medics will get their fair hearing and day in

court. Perhaps they will be proven innocent and perhaps not. Just ask yourself

one question: " If it were your child what would you recommend happen to the

people involved " ? Don't forget the other two case in which one was a child ,and

one was and adult. If you were in a room with the medic, the family, and had to

make a decision what would your decision be? What about the lawsuit you'll go

through just because your the Chief with 3,300 employee's running 100,000's of

calls a year. If this all becomes true, then what dollar figure would think the

family should be compensated with? If it were Doe on the street would he

have done anything? Would you have done anything? From the news reports the

system is fine. All the policies and procedures were in place to deal with all

the situations, and they just weren't followed. It appears the system is fine,

but the policies have to be enforced. A 20 year veteran must set the highest

standard. At last we are all human,and we make human mistakes. We all have to

pay consequences for our actions, intentional or not.

Ron

Re: [texasems-L] Update on Disturbing Case from Houston

Okay, the following is MY OPINION.

It sounds as though the system failed. Unfortunatly the American response to

failure is to fire/kill the failing person (killing currently being frowned

upon it is generally firing), using said fired person as the 'scape goat',

and closing the issue by claiming the situation as been corrected. *BUZZ*

Not the right answer.

Yes, if this guy screwed up big time he needs disciplinary action. But ONE

failure in 20 years, come-on, that is NOT worth termination over. Maybe loss

of wages, demotion, LOTS of EMT remediation, but not termination and loss of

pension.

The BIG thing that needs to occur here is that HFD needs to find out HOW the

system failed and fix the failure point. Is the failure point lack of

training? Is the failure point unclear protocols? Is the failure point

inability to communicate with the patient? I don't know. But I suspect the

ACTUAL problem will probably not be fixed, the fire-fighter will get his

pension back, and the other two medics will get reinstated once this 'quiets

down'. But then again, I am a cynic (sp) who thinks the worst of everything.

At least I always get pleasant surprises. =)

Webb....ah, you all know what I am where I work by now.

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August 1, 2000

I Thank you so much for trying to help me recover the original story

from the Houston Chronical. However I am still unable to do so. Being in

the Panhandle sometimes it is difficult to recover News from such

sources. If you don't mind, could I impose on you another time and have

you recap,or ??? It would be very helpful to our department.

Thank You so much. PJDEMT@...

Fritch EMS

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August 1, 2000

Right, however the Chief stated the reason for firing the emt was because

of complacency. Shouldn't the shift supervisors, Lt, Cpt, and Chief also

be held liable for this " complacency? " At a time like this the Chief

shouldn't be making any decisions. it should be the city manager

reviewing the case from the Chief on down. iT LOOKS LIKE ANOTHER CASE OF

HANGING SOMEONE OUT TO DRY. IA should be looking into this one.

On Tue, 1 Aug 2000 18:29:33 -0500 " "

writes:

> Everyone loses in this case. It never fails one screw up and everyone

> will pay. It's not fair, but that's the way it is. We are held to a

> higher standard by choice of our own. These things happen all the

> time in this country ,and shouldn't be rewarded with retirement .

> The medics still haven't had their appeal heard. Time will tell.

> This one just hopefully gave everyone a wake up call, and a strong

> message. The medics will get their fair hearing and day in court.

> Perhaps they will be proven innocent and perhaps not. Just ask

> yourself one question: " If it were your child what would you

> recommend happen to the people involved " ? Don't forget the other two

> case in which one was a child ,and one was and adult. If you were in

> a room with the medic, the family, and had to make a decision what

> would your decision be? What about the lawsuit you'll go through

> just because your the Chief with 3,300 employee's running 100,000's

> of calls a year. If this all becomes true, then what dollar figure

> would think the family should be compensated with? If it were

> Doe on the street would he have done anything? Would you have done

> anything? From the news reports the system is fine. All the

> policies and procedures were in place to deal with all the

> situations, and they just weren't followed. It appears the system is

> fine, but the policies have to be enforced. A 20 year veteran must

> set the highest standard. At last we are all human,and we make human

> mistakes. We all have to pay consequences for our actions,

> intentional or not.

> Ron

> Re: [texasems-L] Update on Disturbing Case from Houston

>

> Okay, the following is MY OPINION.

>

> It sounds as though the system failed. Unfortunatly the American

> response to

> failure is to fire/kill the failing person (killing currently

> being frowned

> upon it is generally firing), using said fired person as the

> 'scape goat',

> and closing the issue by claiming the situation as been corrected.

> *BUZZ*

> Not the right answer.

>

> Yes, if this guy screwed up big time he needs disciplinary action.

> But ONE

> failure in 20 years, come-on, that is NOT worth termination over.

> Maybe loss

> of wages, demotion, LOTS of EMT remediation, but not termination

> and loss of

> pension.

>

> The BIG thing that needs to occur here is that HFD needs to find

> out HOW the

> system failed and fix the failure point. Is the failure point lack

> of

> training? Is the failure point unclear protocols? Is the failure

> point

> inability to communicate with the patient? I don't know. But I

> suspect the

> ACTUAL problem will probably not be fixed, the fire-fighter will

> get his

> pension back, and the other two medics will get reinstated once

> this 'quiets

> down'. But then again, I am a cynic (sp) who thinks the worst of

> everything.

> At least I always get pleasant surprises. =)

>

> Webb....ah, you all know what I am where I work by now.

>

________________________________________________________________________

> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at

> http://www.hotmail.com

>

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>

August 2, 2000

As usual the system reminds me of the tail wagging the dog syndrome....I do

not advocate a shrug of the shoulders and slap on the hand for those

involved in this tragic event...however, It kinda makes one wonder if the

public was ever looking when this guy climbed into a burning house to search

for someone who was thought to be home by the lay public..risking his life

on a guess...Yea, it was his job..and yes he did screw up this time...guess

he'll just have to wait until he stands at the pearly gates to be recognized

for anything right he has done...Your so right Matt...

>

>Reply-To: egroups

>To: egroups

>Subject: Re: [texasems-L] Update on Disturbing Case from Houston

>Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 16:05:44 CDT

>

>Okay, the following is MY OPINION.

>

>It sounds as though the system failed. Unfortunatly the American response

>to

>failure is to fire/kill the failing person (killing currently being frowned

>upon it is generally firing), using said fired person as the 'scape goat',

>and closing the issue by claiming the situation as been corrected. *BUZZ*

>Not the right answer.

>

>Yes, if this guy screwed up big time he needs disciplinary action. But ONE

>failure in 20 years, come-on, that is NOT worth termination over. Maybe

>loss

>of wages, demotion, LOTS of EMT remediation, but not termination and loss

>of

>pension.

>

>The BIG thing that needs to occur here is that HFD needs to find out HOW

>the

>system failed and fix the failure point. Is the failure point lack of

>training? Is the failure point unclear protocols? Is the failure point

>inability to communicate with the patient? I don't know. But I suspect the

>ACTUAL problem will probably not be fixed, the fire-fighter will get his

>pension back, and the other two medics will get reinstated once this

>'quiets

>down'. But then again, I am a cynic (sp) who thinks the worst of

>everything.

>At least I always get pleasant surprises. =)

>

> Webb....ah, you all know what I am where I work by now.

>

>________________________________________________________________________

>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

>

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August 2, 2000

The chief did not make the pt decision in this case, the medic did. If the

medic does not follow policy then we should fire the chief?? No. We are

all held accountable for our own actions. If that was my child I would be

upset.

Re: [texasems-L] Update on Disturbing Case from Houston

> >

> > Okay, the following is MY OPINION.

> >

> > It sounds as though the system failed. Unfortunatly the American

> > response to

> > failure is to fire/kill the failing person (killing currently

> > being frowned

> > upon it is generally firing), using said fired person as the

> > 'scape goat',

> > and closing the issue by claiming the situation as been corrected.

> > *BUZZ*

> > Not the right answer.

> >

> > Yes, if this guy screwed up big time he needs disciplinary action.

> > But ONE

> > failure in 20 years, come-on, that is NOT worth termination over.

> > Maybe loss

> > of wages, demotion, LOTS of EMT remediation, but not termination

> > and loss of

> > pension.

> >

> > The BIG thing that needs to occur here is that HFD needs to find

> > out HOW the

> > system failed and fix the failure point. Is the failure point lack

> > of

> > training? Is the failure point unclear protocols? Is the failure

> > point

> > inability to communicate with the patient? I don't know. But I

> > suspect the

> > ACTUAL problem will probably not be fixed, the fire-fighter will

> > get his

> > pension back, and the other two medics will get reinstated once

> > this 'quiets

> > down'. But then again, I am a cynic (sp) who thinks the worst of

> > everything.

> > At least I always get pleasant surprises. =)

> >

> > Webb....ah, you all know what I am where I work by now.

> >

> ________________________________________________________________________

> > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at

> > http://www.hotmail.com

> >

> -------------------------------------------------------------------------

> -----

> >

> -------------------------------------------------------------------------

> -----

> >

August 2, 2000

The news report was the reason for firing was not following department, and

Medical Directors policy, protocol, SOP, which has been long standing and well

known. There is no City Manager. The Chief is a fine man, and will be the first

to step up the the batters box for his personnel when they are right. No one can

really say what should happen unless your there in their shoes. We all can be a

Monday morning quarterback, but it doesn't change two people are dead. Who did

they talk to about getting help? Would you want a captain to pay a price when he

wasn't even informed? If he was and he took care of the patient would that

change what should happen to the medic? It sounds like there are some post that

want someone else to pay the price for something they didn't do. I won't judge

since there is a internal, external, investigation, and civil lawsuits. There

may be criminal charges before it's over for all we know. So anything I've said

is just based on opinions from the news articles I've read that may be all

correct or all wrong. There is still some families without their loved ones, who

asked Emergency Professionals for help. The families are grieving and HFD

morale is rock bottom. No winners, and we probably aren't helping on this

server. What I do support is their is a massive effort to get to the truth and

that DOES say allot for HFD, the Chief, TDH, the Medical Director, countless

others, and Texas regardless of what happens. HFD is the finest Urban Dept in

the Country. As large as they are there will be mistakes, and people will pay a

price. HFD is not alone in this, since the Hospital did have the patient for a

long time. Is anyone looking into that? If so who? The media hasn't said

anything about their part,nor have you heard of any investigations. I bet there

are, but your not hearing it.

Ron

Re: [texasems-L] Update on Disturbing Case from Houston

>

> Okay, the following is MY OPINION.

>

> It sounds as though the system failed. Unfortunatly the American

> response to

> failure is to fire/kill the failing person (killing currently

> being frowned

> upon it is generally firing), using said fired person as the

> 'scape goat',

> and closing the issue by claiming the situation as been corrected.

> *BUZZ*

> Not the right answer.

>

> Yes, if this guy screwed up big time he needs disciplinary action.

> But ONE

> failure in 20 years, come-on, that is NOT worth termination over.

> Maybe loss

> of wages, demotion, LOTS of EMT remediation, but not termination

> and loss of

> pension.

>

> The BIG thing that needs to occur here is that HFD needs to find

> out HOW the

> system failed and fix the failure point. Is the failure point lack

> of

> training? Is the failure point unclear protocols? Is the failure

> point

> inability to communicate with the patient? I don't know. But I

> suspect the

> ACTUAL problem will probably not be fixed, the fire-fighter will

> get his

> pension back, and the other two medics will get reinstated once

> this 'quiets

> down'. But then again, I am a cynic (sp) who thinks the worst of

> everything.

> At least I always get pleasant surprises. =)

>

> Webb....ah, you all know what I am where I work by now.

>

________________________________________________________________________

> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at

> http://www.hotmail.com

>

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>

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>

August 2, 2000

I cannot help but feel for a man with that much time in. Nevertheless, if he

was the commanding officer of the station or the person in charge of making

the medical decision that was made, it is right that he should pay a penalty

commensurate with the fact that his action (or inaction) contributed to a

death. Holding people accountable for their actions and decisions sometimes

means we are forced to make them pay in bitter coin. It is a hard lesson and

sends a loud message to other members of the department. I agree with some

others that the problem goes deeper than a few guys at a station. It

suggests to me that there is a dysfunctional attitude about people in the

community on the part of the service, paid for by taxes, that is charged

with looking out for their emergency medical needs. That responsibility was

breeched and I think some much fatter sparrows, of the chief variety, should

also fall. I am not sure of the significance of the person fired being

hispanic. Personally, I am sick and tired that we immediately look for a

racial or ethnicity-related motivation for any negative behavior toward

others in our society or assume automatically that it is there. I suspect,

more often than not, these things happen because the culprits just don't

care, period. That is my personal opinion.

Dave

[texasems-L] Update on Disturbing Case from Houston

> Houston FD has fired a 20 year veteran firefighter/EMT and taken away his

> pension as a result of the failure to properly deal with the 12 year old

> patient who later died of an aneurism. The fire chief described the

reason

> for the firing of the FF/EMT with an otherwise spotless record as

> " complacency. " The report outlined failure to follow guidelines. It is

> ironic that the FF/EMT fired was the only Spanish speaking FF present.

The

> FF/EMT will appeal the dismissal, according to the news article.

>

> This is the 3rd firefighter to be fired recently over patient care issues.

> Two more were fired for a previous and separate incident.

>

> To read the latest newspaper article go to HoustonChronicle.com.

>

> Gene Gandy, JD, LP

> " Just the messenger. "

>

August 2, 2000

Just for the sake of discussion- one of the Houston TV stations reported

last night that there have been 2 resignations at HFD by rank and file- one

stated he was present at 18's when the boy was there. One thing he stated

was that as they were getting vitals, they asked the mother if she wanted

the boy to be taken to the hospital and she said no! He then directly

stated, " At that point, we did not have consent. " I am not attempting to

validate his comments, only reminding all that there are 2 (or more) sides

to a story...

The other resignation was by a medic who decried the manpower (er, sorry-

personnel) shortage as one of his reasons for quitting.

Food for thought.....

Randy Pitts

August 2, 2000

Not that long ago, the ranger in charge of the Los Alamos Nat. Forest

gave the order to start a " prescribed burn " that did a lot of damage, and

if my memory is correct, cost two firefighters their lives. The ranger

was allowed to retire.

The HFD veteran who has been " indefinitely suspended " has worked, in the

past 20 years, an estimated 54,000 hours for the citizens of Houston. 6

hours of a mistake shouldn't cost this man a deserved pension for a

lifetime of service.

And I wonder... is the punishment equal to other violations of the same

department rules?

Or has this man been made an example of for political purposes?

" Leadership is action, not position "

Larry RN CFRN LEMT-P

....and some other stuff

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August 2, 2000

I agree with Ron, but yet disagree. A professional, regardless of time in

service must set the highest standards, not just professioanlly but

personally. If you cannot maintain high standards in your personal life,

then how can you maintain high standards in your professional life? Let's

raise the bar.

Sloan

-via Grafenwohr, Germany

- Re: [texasems-L] Update on Disturbing Case from Houston

Everyone loses in this case. It never fails one screw up and everyone will

pay. It's not fair, but that's the way it is. We are held to a higher

standard by choice of our own. These things happen all the time in this

country ,and shouldn't be rewarded with retirement . The medics still

haven't had their appeal heard. Time will tell. This one just hopefully gave

everyone a wake up call, and a strong message. The medics will get their

fair hearing and day in court. Perhaps they will be proven innocent and

perhaps not. Just ask yourself one question: " If it were your child what

would you recommend happen to the people involved " ? Don't forget the other

two case in which one was a child ,and one was and adult. If you were in a

room with the medic, the family, and had to make a decision what would your

decision be? What about the lawsuit you'll go through just because your the

Chief with 3,300 employee's running 100,000's of calls a year. If this all

becomes true, then what dollar figure would think the family should be

compensated with? If it were Doe on the street would he have done

anything? Would you have done anything? From the news reports the system is

fine. All the policies and procedures were in place to deal with all the

situations, and they just weren't followed. It appears the system is fine,

but the policies have to be enforced. A 20 year veteran must set the highest

standard. At last we are all human,and we make human mistakes. We all have

to pay consequences for our actions, intentional or not.

Ron

Re: [texasems-L] Update on Disturbing Case from Houston

Okay, the following is MY OPINION.

It sounds as though the system failed. Unfortunatly the American response to

failure is to fire/kill the failing person (killing currently being frowned

upon it is generally firing), using said fired person as the 'scape goat',

and closing the issue by claiming the situation as been corrected. *BUZZ*

Not the right answer.

Yes, if this guy screwed up big time he needs disciplinary action. But ONE

failure in 20 years, come-on, that is NOT worth termination over. Maybe loss

of wages, demotion, LOTS of EMT remediation, but not termination and loss of

pension.

The BIG thing that needs to occur here is that HFD needs to find out HOW the

system failed and fix the failure point. Is the failure point lack of

training? Is the failure point unclear protocols? Is the failure point

inability to communicate with the patient? I don't know. But I suspect the

ACTUAL problem will probably not be fixed, the fire-fighter will get his

pension back, and the other two medics will get reinstated once this 'quiets

down'. But then again, I am a cynic (sp) who thinks the worst of everything.

At least I always get pleasant surprises. =)

Webb....ah, you all know what I am where I work by now.

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August 2, 2000