Re: Starlix Prescription/Ressy numbers

[Guest guest]

>Again, i ask what's the big deal?

****The big deal for me is that 138 is high for an fbg, and spikes can occur

at 1 hour, or 2 hours, or in between, depending on what is eaten. In this

case, it was bread alone, which can easily spike at an hour, check a

glycemic index. I understand the concern here for anyone whose goal is 100,

and admire the desire for better control.

Barb

[Guest guest]

>>My bloodsugar reads over 200 9 out of ten times so how is that harmful? I

don;t understand that. I went back to my doctor on thursday and he didn't

seem concerned. Just said my bloodsugars were high. Am I missing something?

Bobbie>>

***Bobbie, there are studies stating that permanent damage leading to

serious complications can occur with readings as low as 126. Sustained high

readings can lead to complicatoins like blindness, painful neuropathy,

amputation, heart disease, etc. I really feel that it would be excellent

for you to pick up Dr. Bernstein's Diabetes Solution. I do not feel your

doctor is giving you enough information about the consequences of high bg

readings. Good diabetes control (with numbers around 100) can literally

save your life and allow you to live a longer and happy one.

Barb

t2, hbA1c: 5.8, moderate carbs, insulin by choice, hard work

[Guest guest]

> Barb, where can I get that book? I am just not intelligent enough to cope

> with this disease. There is som many things I don't understand. Bobbie

www.amazon.com or any book store, and you might try the library. Of course

you are intelligent enough, Bobbie. I just don't think you've been given

very good information. You are on the right track, though, by joining this

list and reading, and researching. It's " Diabetes Solution " by

Bernstein, and some of it is online at

http://www.diabetes-normalsugars.com/ Hang in there, Bobbie, it takes

awhile to get the gist of the thing, as well as to learn how your body

responds to what foods. I'd also suggest that you write everything down:

meds, what you eat, times, exercise, bg readings. This will be very

informative, acting as a guideline for future planning.

We are here :-)

Barb

[Guest guest]

My doctor has told me that a *very* occasional high reading may not be harmful,

but if the are happening even a few times a month, the cumulative effects can be

harmful. I've never had a reading of 233. It would probably panic me just

because I've never had one that high.

Teri

Re: Re: Starlix Prescription/Ressy numbers

In a message dated 3/26/01 10:15:45 PM Eastern Standard Time,

fencible@... writes:

<< Again, i ask what's the big deal?

Well, the big deal is that a reading of 233 is harmful. >>

A sustained reading of 233 is harmful, but a momentary reading of 233 is

NOT!!!!

[Guest guest]

GayRghts@... wrote:

>

> In a message dated 3/26/01 9:22:59 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> kimderry@... writes:

>

> << I'm with you. I don't see what the problem is. Aren't you supposed to

> wait 2 hours after eating to test? Isn't that the number you go by? >>

>

> Yes Kim..... but they are all in a tizz over the peak she had that went up to

> 233 or something inbetween the intake, and the 2 hr pp.

> However even the note sent for me to print out and bring to my dr, states the

> 2 hr pp NOT the 30 min pp, or the 60 min pp or even the 90 min pp but the 2

> hr one, 120 min one.... is the one that is valid.....

>

> I for one am not an advocate of insulin for type 2's unless they are close to

> becoming type1's, but when you get a response like Ressy did, ie a peak, and

> then the insulin to cause the drop, well i think that is a good thing.... she

> only ended up 17 points higher after the 2 hr pp.

>

> Again, i ask what's the big deal?

Well, the big deal is that a reading of 233 is harmful.

--

Dave - 10:17:23 PM

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[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/27/01 10:04:45 AM Eastern Standard Time,

fencible@... writes:

<< This is only one that I have seen, and I've seen quite a few others. It

appears that PP readings are even more important than FBG readings

according to recent research. >>

HELLO!!!!

I've never once disagreed that PP readings are important....

what i've stressed is that PP readings are traditionally discussed as being 2

hr PP readings..... not earlier.... its generally accepted that the reading

that they are concerned with is the 2 hr pp reading. This is what these

studies are discussing...

[Guest guest]

wrote:

<< A sustained reading of 233 is harmful, but a momentary reading of 233 is

NOT!!!! >>

Diabetes is a humbling experience. We don't have all the answers. I think it

is better to be safe than sorry. This discussion has wandered far afield. I

think a spike of 233 from what was supposedly 10-11 net grams of

carbohydrates is unusual. I understand the original poster's concerns. I am

not nearly as certain as that readings above 200 are harmless - even

if they don't last long.

Susie

[Guest guest]

Bobbie wrote:

<< My bloodsugar reads over 200 9 out of ten times so how is that harmful?

.... I went back to my doctor on thursday and he didn't seem concerned. Just

said my bloodsugars were high. Am I missing something? >>

Yes you are, Bobbie. On average, diabetics - both 1's and 2's - die 15 years

after diagnosis. That's the sword hanging over our heads ... the reason

we're such fanatics about good control, to dodge that bullet. Diabetes

complications rank between the 3rd and 7th leading cause of death (depending

upon how you count).

Susie

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 03/27/2001 3:07:37 PM Eastern Standard Time,

maryato@... writes:

> It is clear to me that quality of life is important. I'd rather lose

> a few months or even years off of my life than spend all of my life

> obsessing about every up and down of 10 or 20 points in my post-

> prandial bg's.

>

Thats fine for you, except it doesn't always mean end of life, quality of

life isn't death it can be debilitating, some complications don't kill you,

they make you dependent on other people, living on disability, way below the

way one is acustomed to, some in poverty, thats not something most people

would want to chance.

You really might do well to talk to some even on this list who wish they

could go back and take every spike seriously. JMHO of course.

carol

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 03/27/2001 2:07:31 PM Central Standard Time,

maryato@... writes:

<< I'd rather lose

a few months or even years off of my life than spend all of my life

obsessing about every up and down of 10 or 20 points in my post-

prandial bg's. >>

I can understand your point of view....some of ths comes very close to

obsessing.....but I gladly do it for my dd who is now 6.....I have already

lost my mother...I am the first in my circle of friends to go through this.

I don't want my dd to go through that. If I live to 63 as my mom did

......my dd will be 26....If the reports of 15 years after diagnosis for

average lifespan of diabetics is correct I will be 57 she will be 20.

I am not afraid of dying as I believe in a wonderful afterlife. I am afraid

of her pain....

So I do obsess hopefully not compulsively....but those numbers are important

and when they get out of control I always wonder how many minutes....hours....

ressy

[Guest guest]

GayRghts@... wrote:

>

> In a message dated 3/26/01 10:15:45 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> fencible@... writes:

>

> << Again, i ask what's the big deal?

>

> Well, the big deal is that a reading of 233 is harmful. >>

>

> A sustained reading of 233 is harmful, but a momentary reading of 233 is

> NOT!!!!

>

Cites please ? Where are you getting this (mis)information?

Recent research has shown that postprandial readings are very important,

if not the most important determining factor for progression of this

disease.

CITE:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_uid\

s=11187396 & dopt=Abstract

Resolving the glucose response curve: the

underestimated importance of postprandial glucose.

Brancati F

Although the measures fasting plasma glucose, postprandial glucose,

and hemoglobin A1c are accepted methods for identifying clinical

diabetes, discussion has arisen over which measure is the most

informative and the precise role of each in the disease. The American

Diabetes Association and the World Health Organization have chosen

different metrics for their categorization of clinical diabetes, and

their

respective classification systems identify substantially different

populations of patients with diabetes. Increasing evidence has

suggested that elevated postprandial glucose has a significant role in

the progression of diabetes and as an independent risk factor for

diabetes-related complications. Glycemic metrics in terms of their

physiological basis and ability to identify populations at risk of

diabetes and diabetes-related complications are discussed.

PMID: 11187396

This is only one that I have seen, and I've seen quite a few others. It

appears that PP readings are even more important than FBG readings

according to recent research.

--

Dave - 9:53:43 AM

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[Guest guest]

GayRghts@... wrote:

>

> In a message dated 3/27/01 10:04:45 AM Eastern Standard Time,

> fencible@... writes:

>

> << This is only one that I have seen, and I've seen quite a few others. It

> appears that PP readings are even more important than FBG readings

> according to recent research. >>

>

> HELLO!!!!

> I've never once disagreed that PP readings are important....

> what i've stressed is that PP readings are traditionally discussed as being 2

> hr PP readings..... not earlier.... its generally accepted that the reading

> that they are concerned with is the 2 hr pp reading. This is what these

> studies are discussing...

>

Touched a nerve, huh?

Wrong .. Yes, the 2 hr PP reading is a very important reading,

and most sources say to aim for under 160 at 2 hr PP, although many are

saying that 140 is magic number. The ADA used to recommend 180, but have

quickly changed their tune.

What I am referring to is the amount of " spike " after eating,

irrespective of whatever reading you get at the 2 hour PP mark. The

spike (1 hour reading) is a very important predictor of complication.

You can't stick your head in the sand and say that 233 is fine at one

hour as long as my 2 hr PP reading is acceptable.

Use your search engine.

--

Dave - 10:38:44 AM

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[Guest guest]

DaveO wrote:

>

> GayRghts@... wrote:

> >

> > In a message dated 3/27/01 10:04:45 AM Eastern Standard Time,

> > fencible@... writes:

> >

> > << This is only one that I have seen, and I've seen quite a few others. It

> > appears that PP readings are even more important than FBG readings

> > according to recent research. >>

> >

> > HELLO!!!!

> > I've never once disagreed that PP readings are important....

> > what i've stressed is that PP readings are traditionally discussed as being

2

> > hr PP readings..... not earlier.... its generally accepted that the reading

> > that they are concerned with is the 2 hr pp reading. This is what these

> > studies are discussing...

> >

>

>

> Touched a nerve, huh?

>

> Wrong .. Yes, the 2 hr PP reading is a very important reading,

> and most sources say to aim for under 160 at 2 hr PP, although many are

> saying that 140 is magic number. The ADA used to recommend 180, but have

> quickly changed their tune.

>

> What I am referring to is the amount of " spike " after eating,

> irrespective of whatever reading you get at the 2 hour PP mark. The

> spike (1 hour reading) is a very important predictor of complication.

>

> You can't stick your head in the sand and say that 233 is fine at one

> hour as long as my 2 hr PP reading is acceptable.

>

> Use your search engine.

Gee, I find myself repsponding to myself..Is that an indicator of

something?

Using *my* search engine I came up with this:

http://www.medscape.com/Medscape/endocrinology/TreatmentUpdate/2000/tu05/tu05-07\

..html

(note that you have to join medscape *free* to read the full article)

Table 4. The Emerging Importance of Postprandial Glucose (PPG).

In a study by Avignon and colleagues[20] postmeal glucose levels

predicted overall glycemic

control better than did fasting glucose levels, and they were correlated

better with HbA1c.

Hanefeld and colleagues[21] showed that postprandial blood glucose was

an independent risk

factor for MI in patients with type 2 diabetes. At 11 years follow-up,

the incidence of and

mortality from MI was not significant, based on fasting blood glucose,

but when based on

postprandial blood glucose, it reached statistical significance.

Other studies show a strong correlation between high postprandial blood

glucose levels and

the increased risk of cardiovascular and coronary heart disease (CHD)

both in patients with

diabetes and in the general population.[22-26]

************* NOTE THE FOLLOWING **************

In the Honolulu Heart Study, patients with

1-hour postmeal plasma glucose levels of 190-532 mg/dL were

significantly more likely to

die from CHD than were patients with a 1-hour postmeal glucose level of

40-114 mg/dL.[22]

The Paris Prospective Study[23] showed a progressive increase in CHD

mortality associated

with increased glucose intolerance.

*************************************************

A study by de Venciana and colleagues[27] highlights the importance of

postprandial

glycemic control. In this trial, 66 patients with gestational diabetes

who required insulin

therapy at 30-weeks gestation or earlier were randomized to 2 groups.

Both groups were

monitored by fasting glucose, but 1 group adjusted insulin therapy to a

preprandial blood

glucose concentration range of 60-105 mg/dL, whereas the other group

aimed for a 1-hour

postprandial blood glucose level below 140 mg/dL. Compared with the

preprandial

monitoring group, the postprandial monitoring group exhibited a

significantly greater

reduction in HbA1c over 6 weeks. The improved HbA1c with postprandial

monitoring

resulted in decreased risk of neonatal hypoglycemia, macrosomia, and

cesarean delivery.

It's very important to be accurate when posting to a list.

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[Guest guest]

> >>My bloodsugar reads over 200 9 out of ten times so how is that

harmful? I

> don;t understand that. I went back to my doctor on thursday and he

didn't

> seem concerned. Just said my bloodsugars were high. Am I missing

something?

> Bobbie>>

>

> ***Bobbie, there are studies stating that permanent damage leading

to

> serious complications can occur with readings as low as 126.

Sustained high

> readings can lead to complicatoins like blindness, painful

neuropathy,

> amputation, heart disease, etc. I really feel that it would be

excellent

> for you to pick up Dr. Bernstein's Diabetes Solution. I do not

feel your

> doctor is giving you enough information about the consequences of

high bg

> readings. Good diabetes control (with numbers around 100) can

literally

> save your life and allow you to live a longer and happy one.

>

> Barb

> t2, hbA1c: 5.8, moderate carbs, insulin by choice, hard work

[Guest guest]

Dave wrote,

> Recent research has shown that postprandial readings are very

important,

> if not the most important determining factor for progression of this

> disease.

>

The studies that have been noted so far measure post-prandials on

average across many individuals long-term. They do NOT talk about

individual rare spikes in individuals. There's no evidence that I

know of that rare individual random spikes are harmful. Might be,

might not be.

Individuals with frequent spikes may be eating very poor diets, not

exercising, skipping med doses, etc.

It is clear to me that quality of life is important. I'd rather lose

a few months or even years off of my life than spend all of my life

obsessing about every up and down of 10 or 20 points in my post-

prandial bg's.

T

[Guest guest]

maryato@... wrote:

>

> Dave wrote,

>

> > Recent research has shown that postprandial readings are very

> important,

> > if not the most important determining factor for progression of this

> > disease.

> >

>

> The studies that have been noted so far measure post-prandials on

> average across many individuals long-term. They do NOT talk about

> individual rare spikes in individuals. There's no evidence that I

> know of that rare individual random spikes are harmful. Might be,

> might not be.

>

> Individuals with frequent spikes may be eating very poor diets, not

> exercising, skipping med doses, etc.

Right, and this statement is what I was referring to when I said that

high numbers are damaging:

<<

My bloodsugar reads over 200 9 out of ten times so how is that harmful?

I

don;t understand that. I went back to my doctor on thursday and he

didn't

seem concerned. Just said my bloodsugars were high. Am I missing

something?

Bobbie

>>

Those are not " individual spikes " , it's a lack of control.

--

Dave - 10:39:06 PM

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