Re: define low carb and leaving group was: Introducing

[Guest guest]

You're sure right about that, Dave...I tried one of n's Pure D-Lite

one-carb dark chocolate bars last week, checked my BG and it didn't seem to

make it rise at all so I bought 36 of 'em...today I had one in the middle of

the afternoon, no other food on board, an hour later I was higher by 60 than

before the chocolate! Maybe it has to do with the time of day I ate it?

Darn, and they were good! What am I going to do with 33 lowcarb chocolate

bars that I (maybe) can't eat??? Vicki

In a message dated 01-02-24 20:24:22 EST, you write:

<<

Hell, I'm different day to day.

Today I had some Quaker Puffed Wheat (air cereal), 10 carbs, with

nutrasweet and 1/2 cup 2% milk, which I didn't even use all of, and I

spiked to 164 one hour after eating. I was really surprised as this does

not generally affect me more than 20 points or so.

Each day is different and I just deal with what comes.

>>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/24/01 6:31:14 PM Eastern Standard Time,

ang123@... writes:

<< Some of us say we " low carb " . But low carb can be different things to

different people. To Dr. Bernstein, it is around 30 carbs per day. I

think Teri has stated before that she eats around 100 carbs per day. I

approximate I eat around 100 to 120 carbs per day, and with moderation in

exercise and some medicine, I am gradually gaining good control. Most

people would not say I am " low carb " . I, myself define what I am doing as

" moderate carbing " . But is there an " official " scale? I mean, to me 80

carbs a day, is low carb! Perhaps it would be better to say that " lowering

your carbohydrate intake " can lead to better control, than to say people

ought to be strictly low carb. I mean, I do not think everyone has to eat

30 carbs a day to be a healty diabetic, I just dont. As for the 350-400

people in the group and only finding 2 who do not low carb, I do not know

how this statement could be accurate. all 400 of us do not post messages.

Some are permant lurkers. So how do we know what diet the others follow?

A better statement might have been: of all the people that post to this

group, I have found only 2 who do not low carb. I mean, what is low carb?

30-50 carbs per day? what is moderate carb? 50-100 carbs per day? There

is no way to " define " it for everyone.

I thought this was supposed to be a supportive group, no matter what

methods you choose to treat your diabetes. I am finding that this is

frequently not the case. For all the people that have helped me, I thank

you. Nan, Terri, Dave and Barb especially. I feel that I have to leave

the group though and maybe find another one that is more geared towards my

needs.

>>

Dear ang, and all other lurkers .......,

I don't post a lot, because when i do, i have gotten jumped on for a variety

of reasons.... because my food intake is not " LOW CARB " enough for some of

the regular posters.... but here goes... this is what i do....

I experiemented.... tested, ate something (just one type of food or one thing

that i'd consider eating as a combo) and tested again in 2 hrs.... ie pasta

with sause, mashed potatoes, rice and beef and broccoli stir fry. Sweet

potatoe, steak, pizza, frosted flakes, donut, brownie, cookies, crackers,

cake, icecream, broccoli, etc.

I did this for bout 2 weeks, most of the time.... from mid January, -

beginning of feb, and on occasion i'll do it again, now.

Then i knew how MY body reacted to those certain foods...

i emphase MY body, because we all have different bodys, and we all react

differently. I also learned that if i eat protein, and veggies first, at

times i can get away with more carb, than other times. At times i need to

eat foods that would not be considered low carb.... due to finances.

I try to keep my carbs as low as i can. But i dont avoid them like the

plague....

Just as an example....

Here is what i had today....

12noon blood sugar 126 (fasting) ate a large bowl of frosted flakes, and

milk,

5pm bld sugar 136 had been snacking on potatoe chips for bout 2

hrs... about half a large bag (half a 13 oz bag)

napped....

9pm 127 sweetpotatoe with margarine, nuked in the microwave. and bout

3-4 oz cheddar cheese chunks.

(i'm knowing that my blood sugar will go to about 160 now by 11pm, and then

go back down, and be like 120 or less by am.)

beverage all day water....

This is adequate per my dr and diabetic educator at present...

i'm on glucophage 500 mg twice a day.... and i'm type 2 diagnosed in Nov

2000.

I stay on this list because there are some great tips, and some great

ideas... and some great people....

Don't bother flaming this email.... its just not worth it, some of you did

this back in January.

[Guest guest]

Some of us feel that the " lowered carb " way saves lives. My son is Dr.

Bernstein's patient, but he eats closer to 50-60 grams carb per day. There

was no way we could get control with the ADA diet.

I have learned not to push the low carb thing. But if you keep to yourself,

then you haven't helped anyone. If even one person benefits from hearing

that there is an " alternative " to the ADA, then I have helped one person.

I am furious that our doctors before Dr. Bernstein never even considered or

mentioned that by lowering carb we could get control.

Last HBA1C (August ) was 6. Ron is helping us and I think we will do even

better next time.

n

[Guest guest]

I wish they were " my " Pure Delight bars. They contain 3.4 grams of carb and

a small amount of protein. GABE NEVER EATS THEM WITHOUT INSULIN. So how

much it raises sugar is not the issue as much as how much insulin is needed

to cover it and if the label appears correct. I have used the bars for

months and they appear to be accurately labelled.

NOT WITHOUT INSULIN. FYI, Gabe literally does not eat anything without

insulin.

Occasionally a piece of cheese (about 3 grams glucose from protein), but not

much else.

n

[Guest guest]

><< As for the 350-400 people in the group and only finding 2 who do not

>low carb >>

>... Whoopsy-daisy. That's not what I said. I said that I've been unable to

>find more than two people in our group who can eat the " white stuff " ...

><< I do not know how this statement could be accurate. all 400 of us do

>not post messages. Some are permant lurkers. So how do we know what diet

>the others follow? >>

>... Because twice recently I've specifically requested that anyone who can

>eat like Edwin can please respond, and no one did. ...

Whoopsy-daisy again. That " no one did " doesn't mean that it follows that

no one can.

><< I thought this was supposed to be a supportive group, no matter what

>methods you choose to treat your diabetes. >>

>... You bet it is. We're trying to offer more than support. We're trying

>to save each others' lives. ...

Um, cough, might be a better word would have been " I " versus " we " . That's

not *my purpose for being here. I'm here to offer and gain support and

information and points of view. I have neither the power nor the authority

to try to save other's lives. Heaven knows, I would if I could. But I'm

neither all-knowing nor omnipotent; I doubt that any of us here

are. Besides, nowhere on the list info do I recall it saying or implying

" we're here to try to save each other's lives, " so to make this blanket

statement as if it were an agreed upon list purpose seems to me to be a

incorrect assertion.

><< I feel that I have to leave the group though and maybe find another one

>that is more geared towards my needs. >>

>... And I wish you and all diabetics well. I hope you find a group that

>feels compatible. There are many on the internet, and you can even form

>your own. ...

Ah, such gentle acceptance of a newbie-diagnosed. I'm in awe at the depth

of compassion expressed here. Truly. ;->

and other new persons, please don't leave. There aren't that many

quality DM info and support lists out there. Believe me, I've tried a

bunch. They all have their faults, and they all have their particular

posters' points of view. We each speak only for ourselves when we

write. I understand that it's hard not to, but I'd urge that we all not

take the remarks of one to be representative of the whole.

I remember my first days after diagnosis. I remember how frightened and

lonely I felt, and how I longed for knowledgeable community and informed

support. Really, you will find that here. There are several things

happening however.

1) Some of us get zealous over the way that works for us and advise it for

everyone. Some of us are zealous in pushing one view or another. We're

human, in that regard.

2) As a newly diagnosed person, your own sensibilities are likely to be

quite tender just now, and strongly phrased opinions and remarks may be

taken to heart in ways that they mightn't be if you were in any other place

in your life.

3) Part of the struggle in managing our disease is to wear comfortably the

responsibility to sort through all the information and advice offered from

whatever source to find what works for you. A sense of humor helps, but

sometimes it's hard to come by. A sense that you can do this helps, but

that takes time to acquire. A sense that not all authority is the right

authority for you helps, but that takes time and accommodation, too.

I venture the opinion, and it's my opinion only, that most of us here offer

to each new person here the space and time to come to grips with all of

this. I would urge you not to leave, but to hang in and let the words

roll, to take what's useful and leave the rest.

By and large, I think this really is a pretty decent list.

jo

mailto:jo_harper@...

[Guest guest]

>I'm an emotional eater. I'm wondering if there are people like me on this

>list?

yeah ;- ))

jo

mailto:jo_harper@...

[Guest guest]

has unsubscribed.

Re: define " low carb " and leaving group was:

Introducing

Good post Jo. I sincerely hope that stays also. I know how one

can get frustrated by " the other team " , but I've pretty much learned to

do as you say, let the words roll. I really hate to see good folks

leave.

There are far more than two people here that are able to deal with some

of the unmentionables.

And, I am too old and crotchety to EVER commit myself to eating like a

damn rabbit most of the time.

We are managing our own disease here, and everyone is different.

Hell, I'm different day to day.

Today I had some Quaker Puffed Wheat (air cereal), 10 carbs, with

nutrasweet and 1/2 cup 2% milk, which I didn't even use all of, and I

spiked to 164 one hour after eating. I was really surprised as this does

not generally affect me more than 20 points or so.

Each day is different and I just deal with what comes.

To hell with the naysayers..

--

Dave - 8:15:52 PM

T2 - 8/98 Glucophage, NPH

-

Davors Daily Aphorism:

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[Guest guest]

> has unsubscribed.

>

> >>> I sincerely hope that stays also.

I sent my post directly to , as well as to the list. I hope she

comes back. We need the newbies. They refresh us.

jo

mailto:jo_harper@...

[Guest guest]

DaveO wrote:

whimsy2@... wrote:

>

> Darn, and they were good! What am I going to do with 33 lowcarb chocolate

> bars that I (maybe) can't eat??? Vicki

Bummer..

Save them for Halloween??

--

Dave - 9:36:54 PM

LOL!! Eat it, and inject for 60 points? :-) But of course might not go up 60

every time, what were the circumstances around the first time you ate it?

carol

---------------------------------

[Guest guest]

I eat the white stuff. I've conducted an experiment and found if I have

Papa s garden pizza, it's not as bad as if I had the pepperoni or

sausage. I take 2000 mg Glucophage XR and 15 mg Actos.

Why don't the low carbers create " Low carb diabetes list " ? Yes, lowering

carbs does help, but I still have a donut once in a while (maybe 1 a month).

Re: define " low carb " and leaving group was:

Introducing

>

>><< As for the 350-400 people in the group and only finding 2 who do not

>>low carb >>

>>... Whoopsy-daisy. That's not what I said. I said that I've been unable to

>>find more than two people in our group who can eat the " white stuff " ...

>><< I do not know how this statement could be accurate. all 400 of us do

>>not post messages. Some are permant lurkers. So how do we know what diet

>>the others follow? >>

>>... Because twice recently I've specifically requested that anyone who can

>>eat like Edwin can please respond, and no one did. ...

>

>

>Whoopsy-daisy again. That " no one did " doesn't mean that it follows that

>no one can.

>

>

>><< I thought this was supposed to be a supportive group, no matter what

>>methods you choose to treat your diabetes. >>

>>... You bet it is. We're trying to offer more than support. We're trying

>>to save each others' lives. ...

>

>Um, cough, might be a better word would have been " I " versus " we " . That's

>not *my purpose for being here. I'm here to offer and gain support and

>information and points of view. I have neither the power nor the authority

>to try to save other's lives. Heaven knows, I would if I could. But I'm

>neither all-knowing nor omnipotent; I doubt that any of us here

>are. Besides, nowhere on the list info do I recall it saying or implying

> " we're here to try to save each other's lives, " so to make this blanket

>statement as if it were an agreed upon list purpose seems to me to be a

>incorrect assertion.

>

>

>><< I feel that I have to leave the group though and maybe find another one

>>that is more geared towards my needs. >>

>>... And I wish you and all diabetics well. I hope you find a group that

>>feels compatible. There are many on the internet, and you can even form

>>your own. ...

>

>

>Ah, such gentle acceptance of a newbie-diagnosed. I'm in awe at the depth

>of compassion expressed here. Truly. ;->

>

> and other new persons, please don't leave. There aren't that many

>quality DM info and support lists out there. Believe me, I've tried a

>bunch. They all have their faults, and they all have their particular

>posters' points of view. We each speak only for ourselves when we

>write. I understand that it's hard not to, but I'd urge that we all not

>take the remarks of one to be representative of the whole.

>

>I remember my first days after diagnosis. I remember how frightened and

>lonely I felt, and how I longed for knowledgeable community and informed

>support. Really, you will find that here. There are several things

>happening however.

>

>1) Some of us get zealous over the way that works for us and advise it for

>everyone. Some of us are zealous in pushing one view or another. We're

>human, in that regard.

>

>2) As a newly diagnosed person, your own sensibilities are likely to be

>quite tender just now, and strongly phrased opinions and remarks may be

>taken to heart in ways that they mightn't be if you were in any other place

>in your life.

>

>3) Part of the struggle in managing our disease is to wear comfortably the

>responsibility to sort through all the information and advice offered from

>whatever source to find what works for you. A sense of humor helps, but

>sometimes it's hard to come by. A sense that you can do this helps, but

>that takes time to acquire. A sense that not all authority is the right

>authority for you helps, but that takes time and accommodation, too.

>

>I venture the opinion, and it's my opinion only, that most of us here offer

>to each new person here the space and time to come to grips with all of

>this. I would urge you not to leave, but to hang in and let the words

>roll, to take what's useful and leave the rest.

>

>By and large, I think this really is a pretty decent list.

>

>jo

>

>mailto:jo_harper@...

>

>

>

>Public website for Diabetes International:

>http://www.msteri.com/diabetes-info/diabetes_int

>

>Post message: diabetes_integroups

>Subscribe: diabetes_int-subscribeegroups

>Unsubscribe: diabetes_int-unsubscribeegroups

>List owner: diabetes_int-owneregroups

>

>URL: /group/diabetes_int

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>I have learned not to push the low carb thing. But if you keep to

>yourself, then you haven't helped anyone. If even one person benefits

>from hearing that there is an " alternative " to the ADA, then I have helped

>one person.

n,

truly, I think it's not so much *what's said, as *how it's said.

jo

mailto:jo_harper@...

[Guest guest]

jo harper wrote:

<lotsa snippage>

>

> I venture the opinion, and it's my opinion only, that most of us here offer

> to each new person here the space and time to come to grips with all of

> this. I would urge you not to leave, but to hang in and let the words

> roll, to take what's useful and leave the rest.

>

> By and large, I think this really is a pretty decent list.

>

> jo

Good post Jo. I sincerely hope that stays also. I know how one

can get frustrated by " the other team " , but I've pretty much learned to

do as you say, let the words roll. I really hate to see good folks

leave.

There are far more than two people here that are able to deal with some

of the unmentionables.

And, I am too old and crotchety to EVER commit myself to eating like a

damn rabbit most of the time.

We are managing our own disease here, and everyone is different.

Hell, I'm different day to day.

Today I had some Quaker Puffed Wheat (air cereal), 10 carbs, with

nutrasweet and 1/2 cup 2% milk, which I didn't even use all of, and I

spiked to 164 one hour after eating. I was really surprised as this does

not generally affect me more than 20 points or so.

Each day is different and I just deal with what comes.

To hell with the naysayers..

--

Dave - 8:15:52 PM

T2 - 8/98 Glucophage, NPH

-

Davors Daily Aphorism:

In mathematics or physics, simplifying can be complicated.

--

Visit my HomePage:

http://dorcutt.homepage.com

[Guest guest]

whimsy2@... wrote:

>

> You're sure right about that, Dave...I tried one of n's Pure D-Lite

> one-carb dark chocolate bars last week, checked my BG and it didn't seem to

> make it rise at all so I bought 36 of 'em...today I had one in the middle of

> the afternoon, no other food on board, an hour later I was higher by 60 than

> before the chocolate! Maybe it has to do with the time of day I ate it?

> Darn, and they were good! What am I going to do with 33 lowcarb chocolate

> bars that I (maybe) can't eat??? Vicki

Bummer..

Save them for Halloween??

--

Dave - 9:36:54 PM

T2 - 8/98 Glucophage, NPH

-

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Support bacteria - it's the only culture some people have!

--

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[Guest guest]

Teri wrote:

>

> has unsubscribed.

>

--

Dave - 9:36:54 PM

T2 - 8/98 Glucophage, NPH

-

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[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/25/01 5:57:55 AM Pacific Standard Time, fencible@...

writes:

> Right, and you can't choose it and it has to be tough. I'm wondering how

> you yourself manage your diet when he is having to be so tightly

> controlled. He must have problems when he sees how his siblings and

> parents can eat " without penalty " . How do you handle that if you don't

> mind me asking?

At first we all went on the low carb diet with Gabe. I lost about 40 pounds.

The younger children did not low carb, but for a couple of months I did not

buy chips and etc.

As we found low carb substitutes, I allowed more of the other foods in the

house.

I still ask Gabe if it is okay with him if I eat a potato or rice near him

and he always looks at me as if I am crazy and says " Mom, you don't have

diabetes; eat what you want. "

Biggest problem is when the family wants a late night pizza or snack. Gabe

eats so well, that he really is not hungry between meals. But by 10 pm or so

that pizza looks good to him. I have to negotiate these times one day at a

time. Last time I gave a bedtime snack and tried to guess the dose (extra

shot of H for the snack) he woke up with a b.g. of 217. Guess was obviously

wrong.

I tell Gabe this (when he gets neurotic about worrying about carbs, which he

very occasionally does and will say " it's too much carb): " Gabe YOU ARE NOT A

BLOOD SUGAR READING, YOU ARE A HUMAN BEING " He gets it.

I just try to use my judgement and intutition which sometimes fail me. If he

just wants something because it is there and looks tasty, I try to get him to

wait til a meal. If everyone is eating it, then he gets some too.

Thanks for asking

n

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/25/01 9:08:06 AM Pacific Standard Time, whimsy2@...

writes:

> Well, I guess that's what I'll do, n. But that excludes them as a

> between-meal snack since I can't dose between meals because of overlapping

> insulin activity and the fact that it takes 6-1/2 hours for H to finish for

> me :-( Guess I can still have 'em with a meal. :-) Vicki

>

>

Hi Vicki;

There is no such thing as " in-between meal snacks " without insulin for Gabe

and per Dr. Bernstein's instructions. Gabe has little or no beta cells. But

even if he did, eating without injecting insulin taxes those cells.

You know that all food requires insulin, so I am not sure why you ask?

n

[Guest guest]

<< Whoopsy-daisy again. That " no one did " doesn't mean that it follows that

no one can. >>

And I never said nobody in our group can eat all the " white stuff " without

spiking and without meds. I just said I hadn't found any.

Susie

[Guest guest]

Re: bragging

I believe you are missing the point.

Some folks seem very sensitive about the low carb posts....

Well how to you think it felt to the low carbers when there were dozens of

posts about Krispy Kreme donuts and Dave's chocolate?

Did the low carbers pitch a fit and leave the list.

No

I am trying to point out to you that the posts about such foods give me a

" twinge " just as a low carb post may give someone else an uncomfortable

feeling.

So the heck what?

No one is flaming; just being emphatic and maybe a little controversial.

I think Teri was doing a great job; but people are bound to have strong

emotions and that is not bad.

" Bragging " was just a way of pointing out that it feels that same to hear

someone disagrees strongly with you whether you do or don't eat carbs.

Do you understand?

If I tell you to cut out potatoes or bread and you tell me to eat a Krispy

Kreme donut and dose it with insulin then we both are okay.

n

[Guest guest]

carol wrote:

>

>

>

> DaveO wrote:

>

> whimsy2@... wrote:

> >

> > Darn, and they were good! What am I going to do with 33 lowcarb chocolate

> > bars that I (maybe) can't eat??? Vicki

>

> Bummer..

>

> Save them for Halloween??

>

> --

> Dave - 9:36:54 PM

>

> LOL!! Eat it, and inject for 60 points? :-) But of course might not go up 60

every time, what were the circumstances around the first time you ate it?

>

> carol

Surprisingly, I'm affected very little by them. Food does not affect me

the same all the time either. I had Complete (cereal) again today. It

has 23carbs with 5g of fiber, so 18 + 1/2 cup of 2% milk. I've had it

spike me very quickly to 160+, but today it didn't get over 144. I can

live with that.

If my doc ever agrees to meal injections (I'll know when I see her next

month), I hope that when I get to " covering carbs " that I cover what I

should be eating, not what I can because of the insulin.

--

Dave - 8:37:10 AM

T2 - 8/98 Glucophage, NPH

-

Davors Daily Aphorism:

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[Guest guest]

drmarion12@... wrote:

>

> I wish they were " my " Pure Delight bars. They contain 3.4 grams of carb and

> a small amount of protein. GABE NEVER EATS THEM WITHOUT INSULIN. So how

> much it raises sugar is not the issue as much as how much insulin is needed

> to cover it and if the label appears correct. I have used the bars for

> months and they appear to be accurately labelled.

>

> NOT WITHOUT INSULIN. FYI, Gabe literally does not eat anything without

> insulin.

> Occasionally a piece of cheese (about 3 grams glucose from protein), but not

> much else.

You are so lucky to have a kid that is so compliant when it comes to

insulin. I've heard horror stories about kids having a real time with

needles. Does he give his own shots? Did you ever get him to inject in

his abdomen?

--

Dave - 8:42:48 AM

T2 - 8/98 Glucophage, NPH

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[Guest guest]

Bill Eastman wrote:

>

> I eat the white stuff. I've conducted an experiment and found if I have

> Papa s garden pizza, it's not as bad as if I had the pepperoni or

> sausage. I take 2000 mg Glucophage XR and 15 mg Actos.

> Why don't the low carbers create " Low carb diabetes list " ? Yes, lowering

> carbs does help, but I still have a donut once in a while (maybe 1 a month).

I agree, lowering carbs does help, and I don't eat the number of carbs

that I used to.

I also have a donut, but more frequently than you. I get one every

Wednesday when I take my Mom food shopping as a reward. Hasn't killed me

yet.

--

Dave - 8:48:49 AM

T2 - 8/98 Glucophage, NPH

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[Guest guest]

drmarion12@... wrote:

>

> I assume you have BETA cells. Some diabetics including my son HAVE NO BETA

> CELLS. Lucky you. Every gram of glucose, carb or protein, raises his b.g.

> ten points. So " just eat the donut " is a big deal and requires a bigger shot

> of insulin. All injected Insulin carries a 25% random variation. If the

> random variation is towards a hypo and a large dose is injected...well you

> know the outcome.

>

> So it sounds like bragging to me when you all post that you can eat donuts

> and hershey bars and pasta. Just my opinion, of course.

>

> Long live Beta Cells!!!

Yep, and I wish I could donate some to Gabe.

I think what's so important here is that Gabe is only 65 lbs, and carbs

and insulin have such a dramatic effect on his small body, where the

effect is not so significant on us big folks. As he grows, things should

get easier to manage for you/him.

--

Dave - 8:51:49 AM

T2 - 8/98 Glucophage, NPH

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[Guest guest]

drmarion12@... wrote:

>

> Re: bragging

>

> Post whatever you want. But recognize that most people talking about low

> carb and tight control are Type I without Beta cells and have to inject for

> every little bit of food that some Type II can eat while their pancreases

> smooth over the missing insulin.

>

> If you think the low carb thing is bothersome, how do you think I feel when I

> hear you talking about eating pasta, rice, potatoes and hershey bars? Do you

> know the size insulin shot I would have to give my kid for that food?

>

> It works both ways. I respect you and you way of management although I don't

> choose it for my son.

Right, and you can't choose it and it has to be tough. I'm wondering how

you yourself manage your diet when he is having to be so tightly

controlled. He must have problems when he sees how his siblings and

parents can eat " without penalty " . How do you handle that if you don't

mind me asking?

--

Dave - 8:54:49 AM

T2 - 8/98 Glucophage, NPH

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Davors Daily Aphorism:

Funny off-topic messages are always on-topic.

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[Guest guest]

In a message dated 01-02-25 13:13:08 EST, you write:

<< But since

I come from a large family (6 kids) and I have five kids of my own, well,

the

arguing is part of the territory of people living (internet chatting)

together. >>

Now, that's an interesting point, n...I'm " practically " an only child

(brother 8 years younger) and I find these sorts of squabbles very upsetting.

But I guess if you grew up in a larger family it might not bother you as

much. Informal survey here? Vicki

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 01-02-25 13:52:26 EST, you write:

<< You know that all food requires insulin, so I am not sure why you ask?

>>

Wasn't really asking, it was a rhetorical question :-) Vicki