Guest guest Posted August 26, 2002 Report Share Posted August 26, 2002 Some in this forum have been discussing the subject of colds (from a runny nose and a sore throat to the flu) and, to a lesser extent, the subject of exercising. As previously noted by others, a cold, which is an inflammation of the upper respiratory tract usually caused by a viral infection, may cause one to relapse and one's symptoms of IgAN to (temporarily) worsen. As such, the article, Regular Exercise Helps Keep Colds at Bay: Study, which can be found at the URL below, may be of interest to some of you. The article states that a more active day and regular exercise apparently may help to keep a cold at bay. Being physically active may stimulate immune cells that target cold infections. The heightened stimulation may last only a few hours and then subsides. But day after day of making the immune system spike may lower the overall risk of catching cold. However, the best strategy for prevention is mainly non-exposure to the viruses. Given that most cannot hibernate or move to uninhabited islands, the next best strategy is to have as strong an immune system as possible. With a chronic, and possibly progressive, kidney disease, such as IgAN, keeping a comprised immune system at its best is something one can continually work on through lifestyle habits, including a well-balanced diet (proper food and adequate nutrition), minimal stress, adequate rest and sleep, and exercise. http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/news/fullstory_8936.html Question: While getting a flu shot does not guarantee one will not get the flu, how many actually get one and then find that it indeed prevents or lessens the symptoms associated with getting the flu (without also aggravating their symptoms of IgAN)? -IgAN New York " Our knowledge is the amassed thought and experience of innumerable minds. " Ralph Waldo Emerson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 26, 2002 Report Share Posted August 26, 2002 IgAN NY, I am a strong proponent of flu shots. I find that when I get them, I get sick less often, and if I do become ill, it doesn't seem to be as severe as it is on years I have missed. I must say that I never miss years after becoming very sick about 6 or 7 years ago. Also, it was shortly after that when I began running four days a week, so my exercise may also be contributing. I do have my fairly regular flare ups with my IgAN and HSP, but I have not had the all out flu since I have been taking the flu shot and exercising regularly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2002 Report Share Posted August 27, 2002 Very interesting........I've never had flu shots though because I tend to react to things like that. Sally Exercise May Reduce Risk of Colds Some in this forum have been discussing the subject of colds (from a runny nose and a sore throat to the flu) and, to a lesser extent, the subject of exercising. As previously noted by others, a cold, which is an inflammation of the upper respiratory tract usually caused by a viral infection, may cause one to relapse and one's symptoms of IgAN to (temporarily) worsen. As such, the article, Regular Exercise Helps Keep Colds at Bay: Study, which can be found at the URL below, may be of interest to some of you. The article states that a more active day and regular exercise apparently may help to keep a cold at bay. Being physically active may stimulate immune cells that target cold infections. The heightened stimulation may last only a few hours and then subsides. But day after day of making the immune system spike may lower the overall risk of catching cold. However, the best strategy for prevention is mainly non-exposure to the viruses. Given that most cannot hibernate or move to uninhabited islands, the next best strategy is to have as strong an immune system as possible. With a chronic, and possibly progressive, kidney disease, such as IgAN, keeping a comprised immune system at its best is something one can continually work on through lifestyle habits, including a well-balanced diet (proper food and adequate nutrition), minimal stress, adequate rest and sleep, and exercise. http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/news/fullstory_8936.html Question: While getting a flu shot does not guarantee one will not get the flu, how many actually get one and then find that it indeed prevents or lessens the symptoms associated with getting the flu (without also aggravating their symptoms of IgAN)? -IgAN New York " Our knowledge is the amassed thought and experience of innumerable minds. " Ralph Waldo Emerson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2002 Report Share Posted August 27, 2002 Hi , Like diet, I think an exercise routine must be discussed with your physician. My Nephrologist knows I run, and encourages me to keep it up as long as I can. I do run on a treadmill, so perhaps it is less jarring, and perhaps that is why he is in agreement with it. I just like running because it allows me to get my exercise over in half the time it would take me to walk three miles! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2002 Report Share Posted August 27, 2002 Hi , I agree, running on a treadmill IS boring! But at least it is not cold :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2002 Report Share Posted August 27, 2002 Hi and IgAN NY, My neph told me not to run because he said the constant pounding was not good for our kidneys. I know every doctor and every situation is different but I used to love to run and I am curious if your doctor advised you of the same? Also my neph suggested that I take 2,000 mg of vitamin C a day to help with my depleted immune system. I have felt as if I were going to get sick several times but I have not gotten sick since I started the vitamin C. I am just curious what you guys think about the running and the vitamin C? Best Regards, Re: Exercise May Reduce Risk of Colds IgAN NY, I am a strong proponent of flu shots. I find that when I get them, I get sick less often, and if I do become ill, it doesn't seem to be as severe as it is on years I have missed. I must say that I never miss years after becoming very sick about 6 or 7 years ago. Also, it was shortly after that when I began running four days a week, so my exercise may also be contributing. I do have my fairly regular flare ups with my IgAN and HSP, but I have not had the all out flu since I have been taking the flu shot and exercising regularly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2002 Report Share Posted August 27, 2002 You could always run in the water at the beach. When I was doing rehab for my knees I was told I could run in waist hight water. I found it gave me a better work out any way. Re: Exercise May Reduce Risk of Colds > > > IgAN NY, > > I am a strong proponent of flu shots. I find that when I get them, I get > sick less often, and if I do become ill, it doesn't seem to be as severe as > it is on years I have missed. I must say that I never miss years after > becoming very sick about 6 or 7 years ago. Also, it was shortly after that > when I began running four days a week, so my exercise may also be > contributing. I do have my fairly regular flare ups with my IgAN and HSP, > but I have not had the all out flu since I have been taking the flu shot and > > exercising regularly. > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2002 Report Share Posted August 27, 2002 , It is so funny you said that. I too had to run in water when I was rehabbing my knee. I hurt mine playing football. The only problem with running in the water is that I found I was getting nowhere fast and that drove me absolutely crazy and yes is was more difficult. Although, it did drive me crazy I might have to try running in the water again. Re: Exercise May Reduce Risk of Colds You could always run in the water at the beach. When I was doing rehab for my knees I was told I could run in waist hight water. I found it gave me a better work out any way. Re: Exercise May Reduce Risk of Colds > > > IgAN NY, > > I am a strong proponent of flu shots. I find that when I get them, I get > sick less often, and if I do become ill, it doesn't seem to be as severe as > it is on years I have missed. I must say that I never miss years after > becoming very sick about 6 or 7 years ago. Also, it was shortly after that > when I began running four days a week, so my exercise may also be > contributing. I do have my fairly regular flare ups with my IgAN and HSP, > but I have not had the all out flu since I have been taking the flu shot and > > exercising regularly. > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2002 Report Share Posted August 27, 2002 Did mine in field hockey. I was the goal keeper (back when I could do full splits both ways). Though it didn't help me playing rugby and cricket as well. :-) BTW It drove me crazy too, that why I suggested the beach. At least there is plenty to look at at the beach..... Re: Exercise May Reduce Risk of Colds > > > > > > IgAN NY, > > > > I am a strong proponent of flu shots. I find that when I get them, I get > > sick less often, and if I do become ill, it doesn't seem to be as severe > as > > it is on years I have missed. I must say that I never miss years after > > becoming very sick about 6 or 7 years ago. Also, it was shortly after > that > > when I began running four days a week, so my exercise may also be > > contributing. I do have my fairly regular flare ups with my IgAN and HSP, > > but I have not had the all out flu since I have been taking the flu shot > and > > > > exercising regularly. > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2002 Report Share Posted August 27, 2002 Hi New York, I would like to add to your list of lifestyle habits. In my opinion you can keep " germs at bay " by washing your hands many times a day. I do think that it has helped me with getting fewer colds. Experts may disagree, but I think it helps me! Connie, USA Exercise May Reduce Risk of Colds Some in this forum have been discussing the subject of colds (from a runny nose and a sore throat to the flu) and, to a lesser extent, the subject of exercising. As previously noted by others, a cold, which is an inflammation of the upper respiratory tract usually caused by a viral infection, may cause one to relapse and one's symptoms of IgAN to (temporarily) worsen. As such, the article, Regular Exercise Helps Keep Colds at Bay: Study, which can be found at the URL below, may be of interest to some of you. The article states that a more active day and regular exercise apparently may help to keep a cold at bay. Being physically active may stimulate immune cells that target cold infections. The heightened stimulation may last only a few hours and then subsides. But day after day of making the immune system spike may lower the overall risk of catching cold. However, the best strategy for prevention is mainly non-exposure to the viruses. Given that most cannot hibernate or move to uninhabited islands, the next best strategy is to have as strong an immune system as possible. With a chronic, and possibly progressive, kidney disease, such as IgAN, keeping a comprised immune system at its best is something one can continually work on through lifestyle habits, including a well-balanced diet (proper food and adequate nutrition), minimal stress, adequate rest and sleep, and exercise. http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/news/fullstory_8936.html Question: While getting a flu shot does not guarantee one will not get the flu, how many actually get one and then find that it indeed prevents or lessens the symptoms associated with getting the flu (without also aggravating their symptoms of IgAN)? -IgAN New York " Our knowledge is the amassed thought and experience of innumerable minds. " Ralph Waldo Emerson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2002 Report Share Posted August 27, 2002 Re: Exercise May Reduce Risk of Colds Did mine in field hockey. I was the goal keeper (back when I could do full splits both ways). Though it didn't help me playing rugby and cricket as well. :-) BTW It drove me crazy too, that why I suggested the beach. At least there is plenty to look at at the beach..... Re: Exercise May Reduce Risk of Colds > > > > > > IgAN NY, > > > > I am a strong proponent of flu shots. I find that when I get them, I get > > sick less often, and if I do become ill, it doesn't seem to be as severe > as > > it is on years I have missed. I must say that I never miss years after > > becoming very sick about 6 or 7 years ago. Also, it was shortly after > that > > when I began running four days a week, so my exercise may also be > > contributing. I do have my fairly regular flare ups with my IgAN and HSP, > > but I have not had the all out flu since I have been taking the flu shot > and > > > > exercising regularly. > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2002 Report Share Posted August 27, 2002 , Thank you for responding. My Nephrologist did tell me that I could run on a treadmill. For some reason I thought you were pounding the pavement rather than on a treadmill. Personally I like the Stairmaster but lately my knees have been really hurting so I haven't done the Stairmaster for a long time. I do have a treadmill and I do run on that but it is boring not going anywhere. LOL Re: Exercise May Reduce Risk of Colds Hi , Like diet, I think an exercise routine must be discussed with your physician. My Nephrologist knows I run, and encourages me to keep it up as long as I can. I do run on a treadmill, so perhaps it is less jarring, and perhaps that is why he is in agreement with it. I just like running because it allows me to get my exercise over in half the time it would take me to walk three miles! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2002 Report Share Posted August 27, 2002 In all the years I've had IgAN, I have never been told not to exercise or not do anything, not even now in esrd (of course now, I don't feel like doing much anyway). But it's always best to check with you doctor. Unless there's some specific reason, IgAN shouldn't be a barrier to doing anything, especially in the early years or decades. Pierre Re: Exercise May Reduce Risk of Colds > Hi , > > Like diet, I think an exercise routine must be discussed with your physician. > My Nephrologist knows I run, and encourages me to keep it up as long as I > can. I do run on a treadmill, so perhaps it is less jarring, and perhaps > that is why he is in agreement with it. I just like running because it > allows me to get my exercise over in half the time it would take me to walk > three miles! > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2002 Report Share Posted August 27, 2002 Pierre, That is my thinking as well. I don't want to be limited from doing anything. I know the last 3 months I have not done really anything physical and I need to get back in the gym. Thanks for you words on the previous e-mail. I thought it was normal for the proteinura to go up and down. Do you take any vitamins? Re: Exercise May Reduce Risk of Colds In all the years I've had IgAN, I have never been told not to exercise or not do anything, not even now in esrd (of course now, I don't feel like doing much anyway). But it's always best to check with you doctor. Unless there's some specific reason, IgAN shouldn't be a barrier to doing anything, especially in the early years or decades. Pierre Re: Exercise May Reduce Risk of Colds > Hi , > > Like diet, I think an exercise routine must be discussed with your physician. > My Nephrologist knows I run, and encourages me to keep it up as long as I > can. I do run on a treadmill, so perhaps it is less jarring, and perhaps > that is why he is in agreement with it. I just like running because it > allows me to get my exercise over in half the time it would take me to walk > three miles! > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2002 Report Share Posted August 27, 2002 , Just to cover all the bases, there may be some times when, if you have some particular major flare-up with proteinuria or acute glomerulonephritis (neither of which I've ever experienced myself), your nephrologist might, if you happen to ask, suggest limiting some thing. However, for the garden variety slowly progressive IgAN, exercise is strongly encouraged. I've always loved cycling (road bikes), so I've always done that, played some heavy squash up to 5 times per week, hiking, not to mention all the stuff you do as part of being in the army. I don't like the pounding on the legs that running does, so, I've never been much into jogging, and I've never owned a treadmill. However, bicycles are another story, and I've used a stationary exercycle for years (winter is to harsh for outdoor cycling here). So, as I said, I have absolutely never been discouraged from exercising, except one specific time when my BP was very high (I was told, only upon asking, not to overdo it until my BP was more under control), but I have been encouraged to exercise many times. The glomeruli in our kidneys are nothing but tiny little blood vessels, and, exercise benefits blood vessels in many ways. Even as I have been approaching end-stage, the people at the renal classes suggested doing whatever we are capable of doing. Pierre Re: Exercise May Reduce Risk of Colds > > > > Hi , > > > > Like diet, I think an exercise routine must be discussed with your > physician. > > My Nephrologist knows I run, and encourages me to keep it up as long as I > > can. I do run on a treadmill, so perhaps it is less jarring, and perhaps > > that is why he is in agreement with it. I just like running because it > > allows me to get my exercise over in half the time it would take me to > walk > > three miles! > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2002 Report Share Posted August 27, 2002 P.S. to my last below, the last thing you want to do when you have kidney disease is to let yourself get physically deconditioned! Pierre Re: Exercise May Reduce Risk of Colds > > > > > > > Hi , > > > > > > Like diet, I think an exercise routine must be discussed with your > > physician. > > > My Nephrologist knows I run, and encourages me to keep it up as long as > I > > > can. I do run on a treadmill, so perhaps it is less jarring, and > perhaps > > > that is why he is in agreement with it. I just like running because it > > > allows me to get my exercise over in half the time it would take me to > > walk > > > three miles! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2002 Report Share Posted August 27, 2002 Pierre, You are so correct in what you just said about not letting yourself get physically deconditioned. My problem, as I am sure with most, is that there is not enough time in a day. I know I need to move exercising higher up on my priority scale. The problem is that I have gotten good at coming up with excuses why I don't have time. :-) Thanks again Pierre!!!!! Re: Exercise May Reduce Risk of Colds P.S. to my last below, the last thing you want to do when you have kidney disease is to let yourself get physically deconditioned! Pierre Re: Exercise May Reduce Risk of Colds > > > > > > > Hi , > > > > > > Like diet, I think an exercise routine must be discussed with your > > physician. > > > My Nephrologist knows I run, and encourages me to keep it up as long as > I > > > can. I do run on a treadmill, so perhaps it is less jarring, and > perhaps > > > that is why he is in agreement with it. I just like running because it > > > allows me to get my exercise over in half the time it would take me to > > walk > > > three miles! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2002 Report Share Posted August 27, 2002 Connie you might be correct. Part of my psychology course deals with research methods, and as an illustration they discussed research into the spreading of colds (specifically how an isolated seaside village always came down a few days after the first boat came in). One of the things they did was introduce a coloured dye to track the movement of airborne particles and put the test group in the dark. When they turned the lights on the people had dye smeared all over their hands and faces, graphically illustrating how much we touch our eyes, nose and mouth while not being fully aware of it. Reply-To: iga-nephropathy To: <iga-nephropathy > Subject: RE: Exercise May Reduce Risk of Colds Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 11:01:01 -0400 Hi New York, I would like to add to your list of lifestyle habits. In my opinion you can keep " germs at bay " by washing your hands many times a day. I do think that it has helped me with getting fewer colds. Experts may disagree, but I think it helps me! Connie, USA Exercise May Reduce Risk of Colds Some in this forum have been discussing the subject of colds (from a runny nose and a sore throat to the flu) and, to a lesser extent, the subject of exercising. As previously noted by others, a cold, which is an inflammation of the upper respiratory tract usually caused by a viral infection, may cause one to relapse and one's symptoms of IgAN to (temporarily) worsen. As such, the article, Regular Exercise Helps Keep Colds at Bay: Study, which can be found at the URL below, may be of interest to some of you. The article states that a more active day and regular exercise apparently may help to keep a cold at bay. Being physically active may stimulate immune cells that target cold infections. The heightened stimulation may last only a few hours and then subsides. But day after day of making the immune system spike may lower the overall risk of catching cold. However, the best strategy for prevention is mainly non-exposure to the viruses. Given that most cannot hibernate or move to uninhabited islands, the next best strategy is to have as strong an immune system as possible. With a chronic, and possibly progressive, kidney disease, such as IgAN, keeping a comprised immune system at its best is something one can continually work on through lifestyle habits, including a well-balanced diet (proper food and adequate nutrition), minimal stress, adequate rest and sleep, and exercise. http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/news/fullstory_8936.html Question: While getting a flu shot does not guarantee one will not get the flu, how many actually get one and then find that it indeed prevents or lessens the symptoms associated with getting the flu (without also aggravating their symptoms of IgAN)? -IgAN New York " Our knowledge is the amassed thought and experience of innumerable minds. " Ralph Waldo Emerson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 28, 2002 Report Share Posted August 28, 2002 Thanks and for your comments. I agree with the study . If you even watch your associates at work, you'd be surprised at how many times a day people touch their faces. I read a long time ago, that many viruses enter the body through the tear ducts. I am a nut case about washing my hands before eating, when returning from any kind of shopping or after being in crowded public places. Connie, USA Exercise May Reduce Risk of Colds Some in this forum have been discussing the subject of colds (from a runny nose and a sore throat to the flu) and, to a lesser extent, the subject of exercising. As previously noted by others, a cold, which is an inflammation of the upper respiratory tract usually caused by a viral infection, may cause one to relapse and one's symptoms of IgAN to (temporarily) worsen. As such, the article, Regular Exercise Helps Keep Colds at Bay: Study, which can be found at the URL below, may be of interest to some of you. The article states that a more active day and regular exercise apparently may help to keep a cold at bay. Being physically active may stimulate immune cells that target cold infections. The heightened stimulation may last only a few hours and then subsides. But day after day of making the immune system spike may lower the overall risk of catching cold. However, the best strategy for prevention is mainly non-exposure to the viruses. Given that most cannot hibernate or move to uninhabited islands, the next best strategy is to have as strong an immune system as possible. With a chronic, and possibly progressive, kidney disease, such as IgAN, keeping a comprised immune system at its best is something one can continually work on through lifestyle habits, including a well-balanced diet (proper food and adequate nutrition), minimal stress, adequate rest and sleep, and exercise. http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/news/fullstory_8936.html Question: While getting a flu shot does not guarantee one will not get the flu, how many actually get one and then find that it indeed prevents or lessens the symptoms associated with getting the flu (without also aggravating their symptoms of IgAN)? -IgAN New York " Our knowledge is the amassed thought and experience of innumerable minds. " Ralph Waldo Emerson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 28, 2002 Report Share Posted August 28, 2002 Hi Connie, I do the exact same thing with washing after going to the grocery store, gas station or anywhere where my hands are where the general public also has their hands. I try so hard to never touch my face when I am out too! A bit of a germ fanatic I guess! It is just a precaution I take because for me, there is no such thing as a mild illness. It seems anything I get will cause a flare up in my kidneys, so I just try my best to avoid exposure! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 28, 2002 Report Share Posted August 28, 2002 I have had a flu shot anually for about 10 yrs and I find that if I don't catch the big influenza I can fight off the pesky little colds better too. I have had 3 sick days only in the last 2 years and that is because I lost my voice. I work on the phones all day so it was a really good excuse not to come to work. I have also have read, well my boyfriend too great delight in reading to me, that genital to genital contact 3 times/week also reduces the number of colds you get. Any excuse right? Sara H Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 28, 2002 Report Share Posted August 28, 2002 My son¹s nephrologist gave him similar advice when he was first diagnosed  no ³ground-pounding² activities, like running, basketball, etc. Swimming is a good, kidney-friendly activity. Betsy On 8/27/02 7:04 AM, " Aylward T TSgt Det 6 TRSS/CCM " wrote: > Hi and IgAN NY, > > My neph told me not to run because he said the constant pounding was not > good for our kidneys. I know every doctor and every situation is different > but I used to love to run and I am curious if your doctor advised you of the > same? Also my neph suggested that I take 2,000 mg of vitamin C a day to > help with my depleted immune system. I have felt as if I were going to get > sick several times but I have not gotten sick since I started the vitamin C. > I am just curious what you guys think about the running and the vitamin C? > > Best Regards, > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 28, 2002 Report Share Posted August 28, 2002 Connie, one of the tv stations here did a survey of various commonly touched things such as shopping trolleys, lift buttons, bathroom taps, escalator hand rails and found that high levels of staphlocuccus and other bacteria persist. Another good reason to wash hands thoroughly and often. Reply-To: iga-nephropathy To: <iga-nephropathy > Subject: RE: Exercise May Reduce Risk of Colds Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 08:50:55 -0400 Thanks and for your comments. I agree with the study . If you even watch your associates at work, you'd be surprised at how many times a day people touch their faces. I read a long time ago, that many viruses enter the body through the tear ducts. I am a nut case about washing my hands before eating, when returning from any kind of shopping or after being in crowded public places. Connie, USA _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2002 Report Share Posted September 4, 2002 Sara, and if you're boyfriend is like most men (when it comes to sex) I'm sure he is taking full credit for your stable numbers too! Connie, USA Re: Exercise May Reduce Risk of Colds I think it was quoted out of a Maxim or Cosmo magazine, so sorry not proper reference. I thinks it is worth a try anyway, my boyfriend thinks sex is a cure all for everything from headaches to fatigue to imsomnia. I must agree as we have been togther for 8 years and my reanl funtion has not declined. Sara H Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 2002 Report Share Posted September 5, 2002 I'm sure he would love to be part of any study that proves he is. Actually he does not ask alot of questions about my kidney function. He is very caring but I think he assumes things are ok unless I say otherwise. Sara H Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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