Re: Some things...

August 10, 2002

Hi Pierre

Gawd blimey mate, what a concoction!!! Boiled celery leaves, yuk!!!!

Like you I too before I discovered the group, was ramming all sorts of

rubbish down my neck, then I started to see my current Neph, who shall

we say had a little word in my shell like, and that was when I decided

to let him take control.

Some of the stuff I was taking, and most of it was homeopathic or

herbal, either gave me chronic diahorrea or the complete opposite

constipation. And the headaches, they were dreadful. Nowadays as I

have mentioned everyone, all I take is Cranberry Juice (Tablets and

Juice), and Echinacea after periods of prolonged illness, like a cold or

virus.

Your experiences below Pierre do not surprise me, I remember my Neph

telling me that it was highly likely that I would develop sensitivities

to many things that previously did not bother me. How right he was, I

now have to watch many things that I eat, dairy products have always

been difficult, but my tolerance to them is nil now, and a few others

too many to mention.

I also found that unlike conventional medicines, alternatives very

rarely come with written contraindications which I now realise is very

disconcerting, I assumed that as they were supposed to be healthy, there

were none, whoops steep learning curve on that one for me.

Anyway as time goes on and you get to live with this condition, you

learn by your mistakes I guess, but I for one am so grateful for hearing

about your experiences, and I am happy to share mine, in the hope that

we might spare some other person or persons who are contemplating going

down this road, that it is not always the easy ride they might expect or

hope.

Of course we are all in charge of our own destinies, but for I

personally bitterly regret messing about with stuff I had not

researched, or ran by my medical team, a lot of it was I was in denial

at the time, and was so pig headed that I knew better.....ahem ! I knew

nothing and a week in a renal ward while they tried to sort out why my

white cell count was all over the place, and that the fact that my BP

was well out of control, taught me a lesson.

I am seriously not trying to scare people but as is usual adding a word

of caution.

I hope this clarifies my position on alternatives, and now to be honest

think I have put my feelings on this matter across as fair as I can.

Bye for now.

Some things...

Well, the crisis has passed, and, I think I should let all of you in on

a

little secret. It's not really a secret, as I've mentioned it before, a

long

time ago, I think. Or maybe it was on another group.

Anyway, when you've had 25 years to get to the point I am now, you don't

get

there without ever having some, shall we say, experiences with

alternative

meds along the way.

Things I have tried in the past (but not within the last 8-10 years or

more):

- boiled celery leaves

That was the first thing anyone ever told me to try as being good for

the

kidneys. Well, I tried it. I boiled some celery leaves and made " tea "

with

the liquid. Later that day, I was so sick I thought I was going to die,

literally. I remember being sick the whole weekend, and I was alone with

the

2 kids at the time (wife was away to visit parents). I was so sick I had

to

get a neighbour to feed the kids. I was too embarrassed to go to the

hospital! This one, I would REALLY abvise you to totally not try!!!!

- garlic

I eat garlic. Always have, in cooking, often chopped raw. Renal diet

even

suggests it as a way of adding flavour to foods. But what I'm talking

about

is concentrated garlic pills. I had read somewhere that (a) it was good

for

blood pressure, and ( kidney diseases might be related to yeast

infections

in the kidneys, and that large doses of garlic extract might help. Well,

it

didn't help my BP at all, and after a couple of weeks, not only did I

have

terrible esophagitis, but I literally smelled like I'd fallen in a

garlic

patch. It just oozed out of my pores. People couldn't stand to be near

me.

By the way, it's probably not harmful, but did you know that megadoses

of

concentrated garlic can cause anemia?

- flax oil

This is before anyone ever heard of fish oil. I have a known allergy to

sunflower seeds and oil, nuts and such, and as luck would have it, I

didn't

do very well with flax oil either. For one thing, I couldn't digest it.

Pretty much just passed the oil unmodified, if you know what I mean.

- some kind of herbal tea which I forget, with honey to sweeten it.

Ended up in Emergency after that one. No kidding! My throat swelled up

until

it was almost shut, within two minutes of drinking it. They had to give

me

Benadryl through an IV. I still don't know if it was the tea itself or

the

honey, and I didn't repeat the experiment. Luckily, we lived not far

from

the local hospital at the time.

- co-enzyme Q10

Supposed to be good for bloodpressure. Didn't work.

- Hawthorne berry extract.

Supposed to be good for bloodpressure. Didn't work either.

- Stresstabs

After a couple of days, developed a large red dry, scaley rash on my

hands.

Stopped it and it went away within a few days. Tried the Stresstabs

again.

Same thing. So, never tried them again, and never got the rash again.

- Selenium, and other things I can't even remember. Now, this is all

long

before the World Wide Web came along. I don't know what I might have

tried

had the Internet been available at the time. Well, what can I say. We

all

learn from our mistakes. Unfortunately, with kidney disease, some of

those

mistakes could be very harmful indeed. Luckily, other than the

life-threatening herbal tea episode (and possibly the celery), nothing

too

serious ever happened to me. But, after that phase, I just decided to

settle

in and let my doctor do the work.

Pierre

August 10, 2002

Pierre,

BRILLIANT e-mail it made me laugh out loud all the way through!!!!!!!

This is one 'homeopathic' remedy anyone can take with tested side

affects....... laughter.

Sally.

Some things...

Well, the crisis has passed, and, I think I should let all of you in on a

little secret. It's not really a secret, as I've mentioned it before, a long

time ago, I think. Or maybe it was on another group.

Anyway, when you've had 25 years to get to the point I am now, you don't get

there without ever having some, shall we say, experiences with alternative

meds along the way.

Things I have tried in the past (but not within the last 8-10 years or

more):

- boiled celery leaves

That was the first thing anyone ever told me to try as being good for the

kidneys. Well, I tried it. I boiled some celery leaves and made " tea " with

the liquid. Later that day, I was so sick I thought I was going to die,

literally. I remember being sick the whole weekend, and I was alone with the

2 kids at the time (wife was away to visit parents). I was so sick I had to

get a neighbour to feed the kids. I was too embarrassed to go to the

hospital! This one, I would REALLY abvise you to totally not try!!!!

- garlic

I eat garlic. Always have, in cooking, often chopped raw. Renal diet even

suggests it as a way of adding flavour to foods. But what I'm talking about

is concentrated garlic pills. I had read somewhere that (a) it was good for

blood pressure, and ( kidney diseases might be related to yeast infections

in the kidneys, and that large doses of garlic extract might help. Well, it

didn't help my BP at all, and after a couple of weeks, not only did I have

terrible esophagitis, but I literally smelled like I'd fallen in a garlic

patch. It just oozed out of my pores. People couldn't stand to be near me.

By the way, it's probably not harmful, but did you know that megadoses of

concentrated garlic can cause anemia?

- flax oil

This is before anyone ever heard of fish oil. I have a known allergy to

sunflower seeds and oil, nuts and such, and as luck would have it, I didn't

do very well with flax oil either. For one thing, I couldn't digest it.

Pretty much just passed the oil unmodified, if you know what I mean.

- some kind of herbal tea which I forget, with honey to sweeten it.

Ended up in Emergency after that one. No kidding! My throat swelled up until

it was almost shut, within two minutes of drinking it. They had to give me

Benadryl through an IV. I still don't know if it was the tea itself or the

honey, and I didn't repeat the experiment. Luckily, we lived not far from

the local hospital at the time.

- co-enzyme Q10

Supposed to be good for bloodpressure. Didn't work.

- Hawthorne berry extract.

Supposed to be good for bloodpressure. Didn't work either.

- Stresstabs

After a couple of days, developed a large red dry, scaley rash on my hands.

Stopped it and it went away within a few days. Tried the Stresstabs again.

Same thing. So, never tried them again, and never got the rash again.

- Selenium, and other things I can't even remember. Now, this is all long

before the World Wide Web came along. I don't know what I might have tried

had the Internet been available at the time. Well, what can I say. We all

learn from our mistakes. Unfortunately, with kidney disease, some of those

mistakes could be very harmful indeed. Luckily, other than the

life-threatening herbal tea episode (and possibly the celery), nothing too

serious ever happened to me. But, after that phase, I just decided to settle

in and let my doctor do the work.

Pierre

August 10, 2002

Hi Sally. I'm really glad you saw the humour in it. That's how I intended

it, but, sometimes, without a voice behind it, humour doesn't come through

as well in email. All of it is true, though.

Pierre

Some things...

>

> Well, the crisis has passed, and, I think I should let all of you in on a

> little secret. It's not really a secret, as I've mentioned it before, a

long

> time ago, I think. Or maybe it was on another group.

>

> Anyway, when you've had 25 years to get to the point I am now, you don't

get

> there without ever having some, shall we say, experiences with alternative

> meds along the way.

>

> Things I have tried in the past (but not within the last 8-10 years or

> more):

>

> - boiled celery leaves

> That was the first thing anyone ever told me to try as being good for the

> kidneys. Well, I tried it. I boiled some celery leaves and made " tea " with

> the liquid. Later that day, I was so sick I thought I was going to die,

> literally. I remember being sick the whole weekend, and I was alone with

the

> 2 kids at the time (wife was away to visit parents). I was so sick I had

to

> get a neighbour to feed the kids. I was too embarrassed to go to the

> hospital! This one, I would REALLY abvise you to totally not try!!!!

>

> - garlic

> I eat garlic. Always have, in cooking, often chopped raw. Renal diet even

> suggests it as a way of adding flavour to foods. But what I'm talking

about

> is concentrated garlic pills. I had read somewhere that (a) it was good

for

> blood pressure, and ( kidney diseases might be related to yeast

infections

> in the kidneys, and that large doses of garlic extract might help. Well,

it

> didn't help my BP at all, and after a couple of weeks, not only did I have

> terrible esophagitis, but I literally smelled like I'd fallen in a garlic

> patch. It just oozed out of my pores. People couldn't stand to be near me.

> By the way, it's probably not harmful, but did you know that megadoses of

> concentrated garlic can cause anemia?

>

> - flax oil

> This is before anyone ever heard of fish oil. I have a known allergy to

> sunflower seeds and oil, nuts and such, and as luck would have it, I

didn't

> do very well with flax oil either. For one thing, I couldn't digest it.

> Pretty much just passed the oil unmodified, if you know what I mean.

>

> - some kind of herbal tea which I forget, with honey to sweeten it.

> Ended up in Emergency after that one. No kidding! My throat swelled up

until

> it was almost shut, within two minutes of drinking it. They had to give me

> Benadryl through an IV. I still don't know if it was the tea itself or the

> honey, and I didn't repeat the experiment. Luckily, we lived not far from

> the local hospital at the time.

>

> - co-enzyme Q10

> Supposed to be good for bloodpressure. Didn't work.

>

> - Hawthorne berry extract.

> Supposed to be good for bloodpressure. Didn't work either.

>

> - Stresstabs

> After a couple of days, developed a large red dry, scaley rash on my

hands.

> Stopped it and it went away within a few days. Tried the Stresstabs again.

> Same thing. So, never tried them again, and never got the rash again.

>

> - Selenium, and other things I can't even remember. Now, this is all long

> before the World Wide Web came along. I don't know what I might have tried

> had the Internet been available at the time. Well, what can I say. We all

> learn from our mistakes. Unfortunately, with kidney disease, some of those

> mistakes could be very harmful indeed. Luckily, other than the

> life-threatening herbal tea episode (and possibly the celery), nothing too

> serious ever happened to me. But, after that phase, I just decided to

settle

> in and let my doctor do the work.

>

> Pierre

>

August 10, 2002

The renal dieticians I've seen love cranberry juice (well, cranberry

cocktail actually, since that's readily available), and they recommend it.

And it's not for any beneficial effect on the kidneys, but because it's a

good source of calories (from the sugar used to sweeten it), and because, as

fruit juices go, it's very low in potassium - only 30mg in a one cup

serving. Altogether a very healthy drink for people with advanced renal

failure.

Pierre

RE: Some things...

> Hi Pierre

>

> Gawd blimey mate, what a concoction!!! Boiled celery leaves, yuk!!!!

> Like you I too before I discovered the group, was ramming all sorts of

> rubbish down my neck, then I started to see my current Neph, who shall

> we say had a little word in my shell like, and that was when I decided

> to let him take control.

>

> Some of the stuff I was taking, and most of it was homeopathic or

> herbal, either gave me chronic diahorrea or the complete opposite

> constipation. And the headaches, they were dreadful. Nowadays as I

> have mentioned everyone, all I take is Cranberry Juice (Tablets and

> Juice), and Echinacea after periods of prolonged illness, like a cold or

> virus.

>

> Your experiences below Pierre do not surprise me, I remember my Neph

> telling me that it was highly likely that I would develop sensitivities

> to many things that previously did not bother me. How right he was, I

> now have to watch many things that I eat, dairy products have always

> been difficult, but my tolerance to them is nil now, and a few others

> too many to mention.

>

> I also found that unlike conventional medicines, alternatives very

> rarely come with written contraindications which I now realise is very

> disconcerting, I assumed that as they were supposed to be healthy, there

> were none, whoops steep learning curve on that one for me.

>

> Anyway as time goes on and you get to live with this condition, you

> learn by your mistakes I guess, but I for one am so grateful for hearing

> about your experiences, and I am happy to share mine, in the hope that

> we might spare some other person or persons who are contemplating going

> down this road, that it is not always the easy ride they might expect or

> hope.

>

> Of course we are all in charge of our own destinies, but for I

> personally bitterly regret messing about with stuff I had not

> researched, or ran by my medical team, a lot of it was I was in denial

> at the time, and was so pig headed that I knew better.....ahem ! I knew

> nothing and a week in a renal ward while they tried to sort out why my

> white cell count was all over the place, and that the fact that my BP

> was well out of control, taught me a lesson.

>

> I am seriously not trying to scare people but as is usual adding a word

> of caution.

>

> I hope this clarifies my position on alternatives, and now to be honest

> think I have put my feelings on this matter across as fair as I can.

>

> Bye for now.

>

August 10, 2002

Pierre,

I used (but only for a month) some homeopathic products in a

desperate attempt to find something by chance useful for my IGAN. It

was a cocktail of many meds. The one described for

glomerulonephritis was called Albumoheel and among its components

there was a mercury containing compound. I know that the amount of

it was ridiculous, however I was not happy at all taking something

containing such a nephrotoxic element like mercury. Also I was

having a prep of Echinacea and it does cointain also " mercury

solubilis " , and I did not like either, so I stopped them both. Maybe

If my renal fuction were still normal I would try those, but with an

impaired renal function like mine I decided not to try anything

without proved scientific evidence of their benefits for kidney

desease.

I take garlic pills daily and was very concerned when I read

Pierre´s message stating that they can cause anemia. Where did you

find this information Pierre? In which amount are they suppossed to

cause anemia?

I decided to take garlic for two reasons: for blood pressure and for

its natural antibiotic activity protecting the body against

bacteria and fungi.

Thanks

Rita

> Pierre

>

> RE: Some things...

>

> > Hi Pierre

> >

> > Gawd blimey mate, what a concoction!!! Boiled celery leaves,

yuk!!!!

> > Like you I too before I discovered the group, was ramming all

sorts of

> > rubbish down my neck, then I started to see my current Neph, who

shall

> > we say had a little word in my shell like, and that was when I

decided

> > to let him take control.

> >

> > Some of the stuff I was taking, and most of it was homeopathic or

> > herbal, either gave me chronic diahorrea or the complete opposite

> > constipation. And the headaches, they were dreadful. Nowadays

as I

> > have mentioned everyone, all I take is Cranberry Juice (Tablets

and

> > Juice), and Echinacea after periods of prolonged illness, like a

cold or

> > virus.

> >

> > Your experiences below Pierre do not surprise me, I remember my

Neph

> > telling me that it was highly likely that I would develop

sensitivities

> > to many things that previously did not bother me. How right he

was, I

> > now have to watch many things that I eat, dairy products have

always

> > been difficult, but my tolerance to them is nil now, and a few

others

> > too many to mention.

> >

> > I also found that unlike conventional medicines, alternatives

very

> > rarely come with written contraindications which I now realise

is very

> > disconcerting, I assumed that as they were supposed to be

healthy, there

> > were none, whoops steep learning curve on that one for me.

> >

> > Anyway as time goes on and you get to live with this condition,

you

> > learn by your mistakes I guess, but I for one am so grateful for

hearing

> > about your experiences, and I am happy to share mine, in the

hope that

> > we might spare some other person or persons who are

contemplating going

> > down this road, that it is not always the easy ride they might

expect or

> > hope.

> >

> > Of course we are all in charge of our own destinies, but for I

> > personally bitterly regret messing about with stuff I had not

> > researched, or ran by my medical team, a lot of it was I was in

denial

> > at the time, and was so pig headed that I knew better.....ahem !

I knew

> > nothing and a week in a renal ward while they tried to sort out

why my

> > white cell count was all over the place, and that the fact that

my BP

> > was well out of control, taught me a lesson.

> >

> > I am seriously not trying to scare people but as is usual adding

a word

> > of caution.

> >

> > I hope this clarifies my position on alternatives, and now to be

honest

> > think I have put my feelings on this matter across as fair as I

can.

> >

> > Bye for now.

> >

August 10, 2002

I remember reading it long ago Rita. There are many sources though. Just one

quick search of medline gives this abstract, for example (one of many):

Nippon Yakurigaku Zasshi 1997 Oct;110 Suppl 1:93P-97P

Sumiyoshi H

Wakunaga Pharmaceutical Co., Ltd., Hiroshima, Japan.

According to the recent pharmacological findings, garlic is a

preventive rather than therapeutic. Epidemiological studies in China, Italy

and USA showed the inverse relationship between stomach and colon cancer

incidences and dietary garlic intake. Anti-carcinogenic activities of garlic

and its constituents including sulfides and S-allyl cysteine, have been

demonstrated using several animal models. Garlic preparations has been also

shown to lower serum cholesterol and triglyceride levels, which are major

risk factors of cardiovascular diseases, through inhibition of their

bio-synthesis in the liver, and to inhibit oxidation of low density

lipoprotein. Furthermore, in vitro and in vivo studies have revealed that

aged garlic extract stimulated immune functions, such as proliferation of

lymphocyte, cytokine release, NK activity and phagocytosis. More recently,

aged garlic extract has been demonstrated to prolong life span of senescence

accelerated mice and prevent brain atrophy. Manufacturing processes

significantly affect chemical constituents in garlic preparations. Different

forms contain different phytochemicals and may have different effects and

toxicities. For example, aged garlic extract inhibited t-BuOOH-induced

oxidation, whereas raw garlic stimulated the oxidation. Although garlic has

been used as a condiment and folklore for a long time, it has been noted to

cause adverse reactions, such as stomach ulcer and anemia. Among the garlic

preparations, only aged garlic extract has been proven to be safe through

toxicological studies. Thus, aged garlic extract could be the most promising

garlic preparation for disease prevention.

Pierre

Re: Some things...

Pierre,

[snip]I take garlic pills daily and was very concerned when I read

Pierre´s message stating that they can cause anemia. Where did you

find this information Pierre? In which amount are they suppossed to

cause anemia?

[snip]Thanks

Rita

August 11, 2002

Pierre,

I can't believe you did all of that!

I did get the humor.

Is that all true?

Margie

> Well, the crisis has passed, and, I think I should let all of you

in on a

> little secret. It's not really a secret, as I've mentioned it

before, a long

> time ago, I think. Or maybe it was on another group.

>

> Anyway, when you've had 25 years to get to the point I am now, you

don't get

> there without ever having some, shall we say, experiences with

alternative

> meds along the way.

>

> Things I have tried in the past (but not within the last 8-10 years

or

> more):

>

> - boiled celery leaves

> That was the first thing anyone ever told me to try as being good

for the

> kidneys. Well, I tried it. I boiled some celery leaves and

made " tea " with

> the liquid. Later that day, I was so sick I thought I was going to

die,

> literally. I remember being sick the whole weekend, and I was alone

with the

> 2 kids at the time (wife was away to visit parents). I was so sick

I had to

> get a neighbour to feed the kids. I was too embarrassed to go to the

> hospital! This one, I would REALLY abvise you to totally not try!!!!

>

> - garlic

> I eat garlic. Always have, in cooking, often chopped raw. Renal

diet even

> suggests it as a way of adding flavour to foods. But what I'm

talking about

> is concentrated garlic pills. I had read somewhere that (a) it was

good for

> blood pressure, and ( kidney diseases might be related to yeast

infections

> in the kidneys, and that large doses of garlic extract might help.

Well, it

> didn't help my BP at all, and after a couple of weeks, not only did

I have

> terrible esophagitis, but I literally smelled like I'd fallen in a

garlic

> patch. It just oozed out of my pores. People couldn't stand to be

near me.

> By the way, it's probably not harmful, but did you know that

megadoses of

> concentrated garlic can cause anemia?

>

> - flax oil

> This is before anyone ever heard of fish oil. I have a known

allergy to

> sunflower seeds and oil, nuts and such, and as luck would have it,

I didn't

> do very well with flax oil either. For one thing, I couldn't digest

it.

> Pretty much just passed the oil unmodified, if you know what I mean.

>

> - some kind of herbal tea which I forget, with honey to sweeten it.

> Ended up in Emergency after that one. No kidding! My throat swelled

up until

> it was almost shut, within two minutes of drinking it. They had to

give me

> Benadryl through an IV. I still don't know if it was the tea itself

or the

> honey, and I didn't repeat the experiment. Luckily, we lived not

far from

> the local hospital at the time.

>

> - co-enzyme Q10

> Supposed to be good for bloodpressure. Didn't work.

>

> - Hawthorne berry extract.

> Supposed to be good for bloodpressure. Didn't work either.

>

> - Stresstabs

> After a couple of days, developed a large red dry, scaley rash on

my hands.

> Stopped it and it went away within a few days. Tried the Stresstabs

again.

> Same thing. So, never tried them again, and never got the rash

again.

>

> - Selenium, and other things I can't even remember. Now, this is

all long

> before the World Wide Web came along. I don't know what I might

have tried

> had the Internet been available at the time. Well, what can I say.

We all

> learn from our mistakes. Unfortunately, with kidney disease, some

of those

> mistakes could be very harmful indeed. Luckily, other than the

> life-threatening herbal tea episode (and possibly the celery),

nothing too

> serious ever happened to me. But, after that phase, I just decided

to settle

> in and let my doctor do the work.

>

> Pierre

August 12, 2002

That's worth noting for me Pierre!

Derrick,

Sydney, Australia

> The renal dieticians I've seen love cranberry juice (well, cranberry

> cocktail actually, since that's readily available), and they

recommend it.

> And it's not for any beneficial effect on the kidneys, but because

it's a

> good source of calories (from the sugar used to sweeten it), and

because, as

> fruit juices go, it's very low in potassium - only 30mg in a one cup

> serving. Altogether a very healthy drink for people with advanced

renal

> failure.

> Pierre

>

> RE: Some things...

>

> > Hi Pierre

> >

> > Gawd blimey mate, what a concoction!!! Boiled celery leaves,

yuk!!!!

> > Like you I too before I discovered the group, was ramming all

sorts of

> > rubbish down my neck, then I started to see my current Neph, who

shall

> > we say had a little word in my shell like, and that was when I

decided

> > to let him take control.

> >

> > Some of the stuff I was taking, and most of it was homeopathic or

> > herbal, either gave me chronic diahorrea or the complete opposite

> > constipation. And the headaches, they were dreadful. Nowadays

as I

> > have mentioned everyone, all I take is Cranberry Juice (Tablets

and

> > Juice), and Echinacea after periods of prolonged illness, like a

cold or

> > virus.

> >

> > Your experiences below Pierre do not surprise me, I remember my

Neph

> > telling me that it was highly likely that I would develop

sensitivities

> > to many things that previously did not bother me. How right he

was, I

> > now have to watch many things that I eat, dairy products have

always

> > been difficult, but my tolerance to them is nil now, and a few

others

> > too many to mention.

> >

> > I also found that unlike conventional medicines, alternatives very

> > rarely come with written contraindications which I now realise is

very

> > disconcerting, I assumed that as they were supposed to be

healthy, there

> > were none, whoops steep learning curve on that one for me.

> >

> > Anyway as time goes on and you get to live with this condition,

you

> > learn by your mistakes I guess, but I for one am so grateful for

hearing

> > about your experiences, and I am happy to share mine, in the hope

that

> > we might spare some other person or persons who are contemplating

going

> > down this road, that it is not always the easy ride they might

expect or

> > hope.

> >

> > Of course we are all in charge of our own destinies, but for I

> > personally bitterly regret messing about with stuff I had not

> > researched, or ran by my medical team, a lot of it was I was in

denial

> > at the time, and was so pig headed that I knew better.....ahem !

I knew

> > nothing and a week in a renal ward while they tried to sort out

why my

> > white cell count was all over the place, and that the fact that

my BP

> > was well out of control, taught me a lesson.

> >

> > I am seriously not trying to scare people but as is usual adding

a word

> > of caution.

> >

> > I hope this clarifies my position on alternatives, and now to be

honest

> > think I have put my feelings on this matter across as fair as I

can.

> >

> > Bye for now.

> >

August 19, 2002

It made me crack up laughing too - especially the bit about the garlic!!! I'm

glad I wasn't living anywhere near you then!!! (no offence meant, of course!!).

" and Sally L. " wrote: