Re: Intro

July 19, 2002

megarobb@... wrote:

> ,

>

> Show this to your husband.

>

Wow.. thank you so much, I will give it to him as soon as I can get him to sit

still. <G>

> He can call me if he has questions... . Better yet, introduce him

to this group. There are too many freaking wimmen in here anyway. <big fat

grin>

>

> Robb Topolski

> http://www.singcerely.com/

>

lol I'll try! He doesn't get much computer time so he tends to resist joining

busy lists... can't blame him, I'm on far too many animal nutrition lists, and

now I get to start in with the human ones. I'll never leave this chair again!

<G>

--

~Jadzia D in Littleton, Colorado.

Owned by:

The pooches: da Pug, Tinimir the Pembroke Corgi, And Cari, the " Golden

Corgi "

The kitties: Tikki, black DSH, and Chance, black DSH.

See critter pictures here:

http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery.fcgi?username=sarahsong

July 19, 2002

susi hall wrote:

> Hi ,

> When I first found out I was diabetic, I was working graveyard shift, then was

transferred to swing shift. It is not easy at all to work strange hours, sleep

strange hours, and maintain this diet. I was told to eat at the same time every

day, and that just made matters worse.

That right there is my worry.. he never sleeps at the same time, how can he EAT

at the same time? He loves working nights, it'd be one more huge stress if he

had to switch to days.

--

~Jadzia D in Littleton, Colorado.

Owned by:

The pooches: da Pug, Tinimir the Pembroke Corgi, And Cari, the " Golden

Corgi "

The kitties: Tikki, black DSH, and Chance, black DSH.

See critter pictures here:

http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery.fcgi?username=sarahsong

July 19, 2002

This is just my opinion, I am FAR from being a doctor. I think that if he eats

the right stuff when he can and not worry too much about the time of day it

should be okay. Make sure he tests his blood sugar alot to make sure that it is

working okay. If he has you to help him with cooking and meal planning that

would be one less stress. Like I said, that is just my opinion, if you have a

diabetic educator handy than I would contact them and tell them your situation.

Good luck, and let me know what happens with him.

Susi

Jadzia and the Zoobrats wrote:

susi hall wrote:

> Hi ,

> When I first found out I was diabetic, I was working graveyard shift, then was

transferred to swing shift. It is not easy at all to work strange hours, sleep

strange hours, and maintain this diet. I was told to eat at the same time every

day, and that just made matters worse.

That right there is my worry.. he never sleeps at the same time, how can he EAT

at the same time? He loves working nights, it'd be one more huge stress if he

had to switch to days.

--

~Jadzia D in Littleton, Colorado.

Owned by:

The pooches: da Pug, Tinimir the Pembroke Corgi, And Cari, the " Golden

Corgi "

The kitties: Tikki, black DSH, and Chance, black DSH.

See critter pictures here:

http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery.fcgi?username=sarahsong

July 19, 2002

Jadzia,

What kind of insurance do you have? I've never heard of an

insurance company paying for only one class in a lifetime

especially since Diabetes is a lifelong condition. I would also

recommend that you get in touch with the American Diabetes

Association. Their webpage is: http://www.diabetes.org.

Also, the book that I'm working thru with my mom is Diabetes for

Dummies. It has a companion book called Diabetic Cookbook for

Dummies.

I have also heard of Avandia. My mom was on it for a time but

not regularly b/c of her being in denial at the time.

Also, make sure that your husband's dr tests his liver function

often b/c of the fact that it can affect the person's liver

after a while. This is what I've heard any way.

Ok, I'm off to read the rest of my e-mail. I've got over a

thousand still left to go b/c I had no phone or Internet service

yesterday.

=====

Kristy

http://www.geocities.com/sokokl/kristyspersonalpage.html

Hoping to be a nurse soon but for now just a Medical Secretary who does a lot of

learning from reading on the Net, books, my dr(s), as well as sharing my own

personal experiences.

__________________________________________________

July 19, 2002

More tortuous than all else are the vagaries of the insurance industry, beyond

remedy, who can understand them? Who knows what these guys & gals do in those

terrarium buildings with their mortality tables and actuarial assumptions?

My insurance company has the same allowance: ONCE CLASS PER INSURED PER

LIFETIME. The people who ran my class said that there is some lobbying in

Oregon to require insurance companies to reïmburse a periodic retread. If all

companies are required to do it, then there is no issue of " remaining

competetive " --the most competeive company will be the one that can provide the

best classes most efficiently.

I know that after only one year I would benefit from another class, especially

since there are so many diverse things to focus on. Three days barely covered

it all. The hospital where I had my class made room for a caregive or

significant other to accompany each person in the class at no additional fee.

Does anyone on this list have an insurance company with a different benefit with

regard to classes?

....cut...

Our insurance told us they'd pay for ONE class in a<BR>

LIFETIME. Better hope we don't get anything else that requires education,

eh?<BR>

....cut...

~Jadzia D in Littleton, Colorado.<BR>

--

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July 19, 2002

Yes,

My insurance company covers like two classes or something like

that. And we don't have a lifetime cap with ours. I don't know

if it's b/c of the fact that my insurance coverage thru this

company is thru the government but I have reason to think that

this may very well be the case. I hope that something can be

done to help you all out.

=====

Kristy

http://www.geocities.com/sokokl/kristyspersonalpage.html

Hoping to be a nurse soon but for now just a Medical Secretary who does a lot of

learning from reading on the Net, books, my dr(s), as well as sharing my own

personal experiences.

__________________________________________________

July 19, 2002

My insurance does not pay for diabetes education at all.

Lynne

Kristy wrote:

My insurance company covers like two classes or something like

that. And we don't have a lifetime cap with ours. I don't know

if it's b/c of the fact that my insurance coverage thru this

company is thru the government but I have reason to think that

this may very well be the case. I hope that something can be

done to help you all out.

=====

Kristy

http://www.geocities.com/sokokl/kristyspersonalpage.html

Hoping to be a nurse soon but for now just a Medical Secretary who does

a lot of learning from reading on the Net, books, my dr(s), as well as

sharing my own personal experiences.

__________________________________________________

July 19, 2002

My ins. company does not pay for education or ANY supplies. I checked into

this and found that if your ins. co. is self-funded, they do not have to

comply even if they are one of the 40 states that require ins. co's to pay

for diabetic supplies.

I have been considering buying my strips off Ebay. Sure are a lot on there

and more reasonably priced than any place else that I can purchase them.

Carole

RE: Intro

My insurance does not pay for diabetes education at all.

Lynne

Kristy wrote:

My insurance company covers like two classes or something like

that. And we don't have a lifetime cap with ours. I don't know

if it's b/c of the fact that my insurance coverage thru this

company is thru the government but I have reason to think that

this may very well be the case. I hope that something can be

done to help you all out.

=====

Kristy

http://www.geocities.com/sokokl/kristyspersonalpage.html

Hoping to be a nurse soon but for now just a Medical Secretary who does

a lot of learning from reading on the Net, books, my dr(s), as well as

sharing my own personal experiences.

__________________________________________________

July 21, 2002

Tell him to try being a Paramedic who works 48 hours on and 24 off. I never know

when or if I will sleep or eat.

Joe

Re: Intro

susi hall wrote:

> Hi ,

> When I first found out I was diabetic, I was working graveyard shift, then

was transferred to swing shift. It is not easy at all to work strange hours,

sleep strange hours, and maintain this diet. I was told to eat at the same time

every day, and that just made matters worse.

That right there is my worry.. he never sleeps at the same time, how can he

EAT at the same time? He loves working nights, it'd be one more huge stress if

he had to switch to days.

--

~Jadzia D in Littleton, Colorado.

Owned by:

The pooches: da Pug, Tinimir the Pembroke Corgi, And Cari, the

" Golden Corgi "

The kitties: Tikki, black DSH, and Chance, black DSH.

See critter pictures here:

http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery.fcgi?username=sarahsong

July 21, 2002

Carole,

Try contacting FreedoMed @ 1-. If you aren't an HMO they should be

able to take care of all of your needs. I use them and they are GREAT. If you

tell them I referred you they send me stuff. (supposedly) I a haven't referred

anyone yet so who knows. It will probably be a pen with their name.

Joe Lipshetz

RE: Intro

My insurance does not pay for diabetes education at all.

Lynne

Kristy wrote:

My insurance company covers like two classes or something like

that. And we don't have a lifetime cap with ours. I don't know

if it's b/c of the fact that my insurance coverage thru this

company is thru the government but I have reason to think that

this may very well be the case. I hope that something can be

done to help you all out.

=====

Kristy

http://www.geocities.com/sokokl/kristyspersonalpage.html

Hoping to be a nurse soon but for now just a Medical Secretary who does

a lot of learning from reading on the Net, books, my dr(s), as well as

sharing my own personal experiences.

__________________________________________________

July 21, 2002

Thanks Joe, I'll give FreedoMed a call on Monday.

Carole

Re: Intro

Carole,

Try contacting FreedoMed @ 1-. If you aren't an HMO they

should be able to take care of all of your needs. I use them and they are

GREAT. If you tell them I referred you they send me stuff. (supposedly) I a

haven't referred anyone yet so who knows. It will probably be a pen with

their name.

Joe Lipshetz

RE: Intro

My insurance does not pay for diabetes education at all.

Lynne

Kristy wrote:

My insurance company covers like two classes or something like

that. And we don't have a lifetime cap with ours. I don't know

if it's b/c of the fact that my insurance coverage thru this

company is thru the government but I have reason to think that

this may very well be the case. I hope that something can be

done to help you all out.

=====

Kristy

http://www.geocities.com/sokokl/kristyspersonalpage.html

Hoping to be a nurse soon but for now just a Medical Secretary who

does

a lot of learning from reading on the Net, books, my dr(s), as well as

sharing my own personal experiences.

__________________________________________________

July 23, 2002

In a message dated 7/23/2002 8:34:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

jddevney@... writes:

> . I've heard

> the low-carb thing can help a lot, but don't know if it's right for me. I

> grew up with diabetics all around me.

Hi Debbie,

Each of us are different, so what works for one person may or may not work

for another one. Low carbs may work for some people, but it didn't for me.

When I tried it, I stopped losing weight and was getting lows about every 2

hours.

You may want to ask your doctor for a prescription for a blood glucose

monitor and strips. You could start testing to see how different foods

effect you. Testing is the only way you will find out what you can and

cannot eat. Exercising will play a major role in reducing bg's.

Eunice

February 24, 2008

Hi Lyn,

I read your email & it rang a lot of bells to me. You see I suffer from

severe nerve damage, however when they did scans etc to make sure

nothing else was wrong it showed torn rotator cuff etc.

I was thankfully put on to a fantastic orthopedic surgeon who did bone

scans & an MRI & decided that he would have a look in my shoulder. He

did so via 4 very small incisions in my shoulder & took out bony growths

that had formed & had been causing me severe pain that was totally

different from the nerve pain. He did tell me that my right shoulder

looked worse than the left but the funny thing was my left doesn't hurt

so I told him to leave it well alone until he did.

However the pain was terrible from that problem before he fixed it for

me. After I had rehab & physio I was a new person. Yes I still have the

nerve pain, but the other pain that also used to have me screaming was

gone for good. It might be worth you following this through with a

really good orthopedic surgeon, but its just an idea.

Alison

Lynn wrote:

> Hi everyone,

>

> I decided to join the group because I'm feeling very alone right now

> and confused about what is going on in my body. I don't have a

> diagnosis right now except for carpal tunnel syndrome, but this has

> to do with my shoulders. I'm very tired of going from specialist to

> specialist only to never find out why I'm in such bad shoulder pain.

> It hurts to type but I have to express myself.

>

February 24, 2008

Awww...

((HUGS))

I've been to this party, too. It's very frustrating.

Eileen

Lynn wrote:

Hi everyone,

I decided to join the group because I'm feeling very alone right now

and confused about what is going on in my body.

February 26, 2008

Hi Lynn,

Welcome to the group! This group is great and is full of wonderful and

understanding people! I get tired of going from specialist to specialist as

well. I hope they can find out what is causing your shoulder pain!

What is Spasmodic Torticollis?

Love,

Becky in SD

Lynn wrote:

I decided to join the group because I'm feeling very alone right now

and confused about what is going on in my body. I'm very tired of going from

specialist to

specialist only to never find out why I'm in such bad shoulder pain.

It hurts to type but I have to express myself.

I found out I have spasmodic torticollis and had

botox injections, this actually helped my neck but not my shoulders.

---------------------------------

Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

February 29, 2008

Lynn,

Have they done MRI's on your shoulders? They couldn't figure out what was

wrong with mine until they figured out I had joint fluid leaking out and it was

causing big cysts. Hopefully, they have done all the test needed for you. If

they thought you had rotator cuff tear, there would not be a question because it

would show up on MRI, same with hernated disc and so on. Did you ever get a

final diagnosis?

Hope your doing better.

Caitlin

Lynn wrote:

. First the doctors thought I had tendonitis, then nerve impingement,

then torn rotator cuff, then herniated disc in my neck, double crush

syndrome, I could go on and on. I've been to physio for many months

and massage as well. I found out I have spasmodic torticollis and had

botox injections, this actually helped my neck but not my shoulders.

---------------------------------

Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

June 25, 2008

Hi and welcome to the group! It sounds to me like you've already taken

a great step in recognizing behaviors that you want to change. Do you see a

therapist at all? If you are interested in changing the behaviors that you

don't like and believe them to be engrained, you may want to work with a

professional in Dialectic Behavioral Therapy. As for Dad, we are here to help

validate your problems and feelings! Hope you find this group as fulfilling as

I do!

Take Care Of You,

JaneSoul

Intro

Hi all,

I found this group a few months ago, but never got around to posting.

So let me remedy that and introduce myself.

I'm 23, and I work as a computer programmer. It's been about a year

since I graduated from college and escaped from my family and my

hometown.

I believe my father has BPD or something similar. I've known for a

very long time that there was something wrong with him - that he was

never really a parent, and my family was never really a family, but

rather a rotting shack behind the facade of a somewhat normal-looking

house.

The manner in which he related to me was at *best* weird and creepy.

He tried to make me into whatever he needed at the moment: someone to

agree with his opinions, someone to affirm that he, or someone

associated with him, was *good* and others were *bad*, someone who

would take his side instead of my mom's...

And someone to do his work for him. He started making me do work on

the rental house he owned when I was six, and I think he started

making me give him back massages before that (I *had* to do it because

he was in *so* much *pain*, you see...). When I was seven or eight, he

started making me enter piles and piles of stock data into the

computer for him (because I was good with computers and he wasn't, you

see) and mark his tests (because he was *so busy*).

And someone to show off. I was a very precocious child, and he got a

charge out of showing me off to his colleagues, or his friends, or the

owner of the Chinese restaurant, or strangers in the supermarket. .. He

had me in all kinds of lessons, like foreign languages and music, and

made me demonstrate those skills to anyone who would watch. He tells

me he was doing this when I was still in diapers (demonstrating my

reading ability to customers at his friend's bar).

He constantly projected things onto me. He told me what I thought or

felt all the time and refused to listen when I said that wasn't true

(like, he would come back from the store and say, " Look, I got this

yogurt because you like it, " and I'd tell him that I *didn't* like it,

and three days later this exact thing would be repeated).

And the splitting... oh man, the splitting. Most of the time I was

*good* because I was smart (or at least, *better* than everyone else

because I was *smarter*; in his world all value is comparative) , but

if I got on his bad side he would *rage* at me. He'd have me up

against the wall, and tower over me, and scream that I was such a

rotten kid and he was never going to let me see my friends or go to

any activities again.

He never followed through on any of these threats, which made me feel

guilty because I thought I wasn't getting what I deserved. And he only

physically punished me once or twice, but he always implied that he

only refrained from doing so because my *mom* so unreasonably

forbade it.

And on occasion he would fluctuate from one extreme to the other, from

black to white and back again, so fast it scared me. I'm talking about

a time span of minutes.

And he could not tolerate any criticism; he'd always make himself

untouchable by saying he was in physical pain, or saying (in a tone of

voice that still terrifies me to this day) " Oh, *right*. I can't do

*anything* right. Everything I do is *wrong*. " (And he did the " Well,

why don't I just move *out* " thing to my mom. He did move out, twice,

for a couple of weeks.)

He was never really emotionally present for anyone. He and my mother

never really had a marriage; he never expressed any sort of affection

for her. And he hardly ever expressed any affection for me or my

brother (and it creeped me out when he did). He held himself separate,

sometimes not even coming when we went somewhere for Thanksgiving or

Christmas, and then whined about not being included and complained

about how my mom's side of the family hated him.

When I was in ninth grade (and my brother, who's 8 years younger than

me, had started really going to school, and my mom had a real

full-time job for the first time) he had a complete breakdown. He

acted like he was seriously physically ill and couldn't get out of

bed; he spent all his time either lying in bed moaning and groaning or

looking up diseases on the internet. He stopped going to work.

And he made me be his personal assistant - I had to make his food, act

as his chiropractor, walk with him (while he used a cane and pretended

to be really weak), get him food from the store, and listen for hours

on end as he whined and complained and cried. (I have *a lot* of

stories from that time period... I'll spare you them. Suffice it to

say all his behavior patterns were seriously intensified. )

(I know his illness was fake because he complained of logically

inconsistent symptoms that fluctuated depending on what he'd read on

the internet that day, and the " symptoms " that were visible, like

muscle twitches and nystagmus, he could consciously produce to

demonstrate. .. and he was *so* *very* *defensive* about his illness

and reacted with *such* rage when anyone challenged him on it.)

I went to college 500 miles away, but he still called me to whine, and

things were just the same when I was home. My mom finally kicked him

out my sophomore year (after he had spent tens of thousands of dollars

on quack treatments), but she still insisted I had to see him because

it was my familial duty, and he treated me just the same.

Then, the next year, the divorce was finalized, and he somehow became

sane enough to go back to work (he's still crazy, and he still

continues in these same behavior patterns, and he still acts like

*something's* physically wrong with him and takes a bunch of quack

supplements, and he has started manifesting some *new* crazinesses;

but he can do his job, and he can carry on a conversation without

mentioning his " illness " or quack treatments).

..... And now I'm independent and free. I haven't spoken to him in

months. I've ignored his phone calls and his emails, and I haven't

gone home. (I know I'm going to have to see him the next time I go

home, and I'm not sure how I'm going to deal with his response. It'll

either be anger or the pathetic whining that's almost worse.)

And the thing I'm *really* concerned about is that I'm afraid I'm just

like him. Over the past year, I've gained a lot of awareness of the

ways in which my behavior resembles his:

I can't deal with criticism, at all. I'm incapable of accepting it and

correcting my behavior; I argue it, and when I can't argue anymore,

I'll say something like, " All right, I know I'm a horrible person. "

I try to find excuses so that I can be let off the hook. I try very

hard not to, and try to force myself to go to work no matter how sick

I am, etc., but when someone tells me that I need to take time off, I

*seize* that opportunity. I actually yearn for an excuse so that I

don't have to deal with the responsibility of life any more. I don't

think I would ever fake an illness and force others to take care of

me, but I can feel that force pulling me.

I manufacture all kinds of misery in my own life. I complain endlessly

about problems and reject any fix that people suggest. I sequester

myself from people and then complain about not having a social life.

I've gotten my friends ensnared by projective identifications a bunch

of times.

I am (as I just recently admitted to myself) manipulative. Very much

so. I very often set it up so that other people will argue with me,

and they'll argue what I want to hear, and I'll get to wallow in

self-indulgent depressive misery. ( " Fishing for compliments " is a

subset of this.) I manipulate people into giving me reassurance and

mercy and support; I manipulate them into pronouncing me innocent,

which is what I want to hear but will never believe.

I've picked up his habit of splitting, and I can't get rid of it. I

can only see good or bad. If I squint hard enough, I can make myself

think I see shades of gray, but when I stop concentrating it all goes

back to black and white.

There are a lot more patterns like this.

And when I think about all these things, my first reaction is to want

to make a big confession to my friends, of the form " I'm such a stupid

idiot. I'm such a horrible person, " which is basically " Let me be down

on myself so you'll take me back. "

It's like these patterns have a hold on me and cannot let me go, like

they're written into me.. And every action falls into them - *even

trying to stop doing them*.

And I'm afraid my destiny is to turn into him, even though that is the

one thing I swore I would never do.

If anyone has advice on how to avoid that, and how to break these

patterns, I'd like to hear it.

Wow, sorry for the long post.

June 25, 2008

Hello -

I think your post deserves it's own thread, but I don't know how to do

that.

Wow! It sounds like my dad had a second family! Almost all of what you

describe is painfully familiar to me, even down to the walking with a

cane.

So, where to start? Probably with your fear of being " just like him " .

When I was a couple of years younger than you, which is about 20 years

ago now, I had very similar fears. In fact, at that point I was so

meshed with both of my parents it really didn't occur to me yet I was

my own separate person. They had both told me so repeatedly that I was

part of them that I actually began to believe it. Every trait I saw in

myself, for good or ill, seemed to come from them. I'd even do

something and then say " Was that more like mom, or dad? " as if I was

not even a free agent with an independent will, but a vessel just

channeling them. Writing that now seems incredible to me, but so it was.

So it's not surprising to me that you are afraid that you are like

your dad. You aren't. Superficially maybe, since you've recognized

certain similar habits. But essentially you are very very different.

You are different for two reasons: You are capable of introspection

and self-criticism. You are willing to change.

That alone pretty much guarantees you aren't suffering from this disorder.

We have a saying here " I'm not that dog, but I've caught some of his

fleas " . What you are probably seeing in yourself are the habits and

attitudes you quite naturally mimicked when you were a child. Fleas

are something you can eventually wash off.

I come from a family with three BPD people. When you are living with

people who are in intellectually advanced, yet have the emotional life

of a three year old, it's damn hard to learn how to be a pleasant,

reasonable, mature human being.

But 23 is definitely not too late to teach yourself this! It's

wonderful and amazing that you have come as far as you have. Stop and

give yourself some credit for being " independent and free " . There

aren't many people in this world, no matter what their background, who

can say that.

And, it will get better. More rapidly than you might now imagine. Now,

when I tell new friends a bit about my family, they are amazed. " You?

You grew up with crazy people? You are one of the sanest people I know!! "

It sounds like you are already so on the ball that I doubt it will

take you 20 years to get to that point.

But it is a process, and admitting the trouble you have is an

admirable first step. Why, anyone who can be as unflinchingly honest

as you just were has nothing to fear about their mental health. In

fact, it's just that kind of honesty that will be your savior. When I

discovered that an honest revelation of my hopes, fears, and weakness

actually endeared me to normal people, what realization that was! No

more lies, no more posturing, no more grandiosity!

The thing is to take little steps. Like when you feel yourself flare

up at a criticism, say something like " Thanks, I'll think about that "

Then go away and do it. If you have to, stomp around, talk out loud to

yourself, argue with the person, defend yourself. When you've totally

exhausted your self-justification, try to pretend to be the other

person for a while.

Ask yourself if the criticism has any merit. If it does, o-kay, it's

not the end of the world, it doesn't mean you are a horrible person,

it doesn't mean no one will love you. It might just mean that you,

like everyone else on this planet, has some annoying habit that could

be changed for the better. And try to do it. You can just do it

privately, don't have to make a big deal about it. You can keep a sort

of scorecard in your head, like o-kay, this is the sort of situation

in which I do that annoying thing - can I refrain from doing it this

time? Or can I do less of it?

Since you had your dad criticize you so harshly and unfairly, it's

natural that you'd bristle at it from anyone. Criticism used to be an

all-out attack. You might even be acting out some anger towards your

dad at a safer target (your friend). But it's important to realize

that the average person isn't trying (like our dad's did) to crush

your very soul with the force of their wrath. There just trying to

point out that they'd appreciate it if you took the trash out once in

a while, or whatever!

One thing that really helped me with this was treating myself to some

much-needed praise to counterbalance all that undeserved wacky

criticism. First was allowing myself to hear praise when it happened.

But then I also went so far as to give it to myself. This will sound

goofy, but it really worked. I remembered a certain incident in which

dad criticized me unfairly, and wrote a note to that little girl I had

been saying that it wasn't my fault and that I'd done the best I

could. I used really sweet friendly simple language like a normal dad

would have. I then I mailed it, to myself, in the actual U.S. postal

system.

I cannot tell you how much I looked forward to getting that letter! I

mean, I actually cried when I opened it, though I knew all the time of

course I had sent it myself. Now, 20 years later, I have so much love

in my life, and am so confident in myself that I feel full up with

praise and love, and have so much overflow it's easy to share and

spread it around. You'll get there, too.

I think finding a good therapist who understands the disorder is a

great next step. And stay on these boards - you'll be amazed at how

many people have been through this.

Remember, he has a disorder, that's why he acts this way. You have a

choice not to, and you won't. Best of luck and a giant hug to you, you

brave girl!

Letty

>

> Hi all,

>

> I found this group a few months ago, but never got around to posting.

>

> So let me remedy that and introduce myself.

>

> I'm 23, and I work as a computer programmer. It's been about a year

>

> since I graduated from college and escaped from my family and my

>

> hometown.

>

> I believe my father has BPD or something similar. I've known for a

>

> very long time that there was something wrong with him - that he was

>

> never really a parent, and my family was never really a family, but

>

> rather a rotting shack behind the facade of a somewhat normal-looking

>

> house.

>

> The manner in which he related to me was at *best* weird and creepy.

>

> He tried to make me into whatever he needed at the moment: someone to

>

> agree with his opinions, someone to affirm that he, or someone

>

> associated with him, was *good* and others were *bad*, someone who

>

> would take his side instead of my mom's...

>

> And someone to do his work for him. He started making me do work on

>

> the rental house he owned when I was six, and I think he started

>

> making me give him back massages before that (I *had* to do it because

>

> he was in *so* much *pain*, you see...). When I was seven or eight, he

>

> started making me enter piles and piles of stock data into the

>

> computer for him (because I was good with computers and he wasn't, you

>

> see) and mark his tests (because he was *so busy*).

>

> And someone to show off. I was a very precocious child, and he got a

>

> charge out of showing me off to his colleagues, or his friends, or the

>

> owner of the Chinese restaurant, or strangers in the supermarket... He

>

> had me in all kinds of lessons, like foreign languages and music, and

>

> made me demonstrate those skills to anyone who would watch. He tells

>

> me he was doing this when I was still in diapers (demonstrating my

>

> reading ability to customers at his friend's bar).

>

> He constantly projected things onto me. He told me what I thought or

>

> felt all the time and refused to listen when I said that wasn't true

>

> (like, he would come back from the store and say, " Look, I got this

>

> yogurt because you like it, " and I'd tell him that I *didn't* like it,

>

> and three days later this exact thing would be repeated).

>

> And the splitting... oh man, the splitting. Most of the time I was

>

> *good* because I was smart (or at least, *better* than everyone else

>

> because I was *smarter*; in his world all value is comparative), but

>

> if I got on his bad side he would *rage* at me. He'd have me up

>

> against the wall, and tower over me, and scream that I was such a

>

> rotten kid and he was never going to let me see my friends or go to

>

> any activities again.

>

> He never followed through on any of these threats, which made me feel

>

> guilty because I thought I wasn't getting what I deserved. And he only

>

> physically punished me once or twice, but he always implied that he

>

> only refrained from doing so because my *mom* so unreasonably

>

> forbade it.

>

> And on occasion he would fluctuate from one extreme to the other, from

>

> black to white and back again, so fast it scared me. I'm talking about

>

> a time span of minutes.

>

> And he could not tolerate any criticism; he'd always make himself

>

> untouchable by saying he was in physical pain, or saying (in a tone of

>

> voice that still terrifies me to this day) " Oh, *right*. I can't do

>

> *anything* right. Everything I do is *wrong*. " (And he did the " Well,

>

> why don't I just move *out* " thing to my mom. He did move out, twice,

>

> for a couple of weeks.)

>

> He was never really emotionally present for anyone. He and my mother

>

> never really had a marriage; he never expressed any sort of affection

>

> for her. And he hardly ever expressed any affection for me or my

>

> brother (and it creeped me out when he did). He held himself separate,

>

> sometimes not even coming when we went somewhere for Thanksgiving or

>

> Christmas, and then whined about not being included and complained

>

> about how my mom's side of the family hated him.

>

> When I was in ninth grade (and my brother, who's 8 years younger than

>

> me, had started really going to school, and my mom had a real

>

> full-time job for the first time) he had a complete breakdown. He

>

> acted like he was seriously physically ill and couldn't get out of

>

> bed; he spent all his time either lying in bed moaning and groaning or

>

> looking up diseases on the internet. He stopped going to work.

>

> And he made me be his personal assistant - I had to make his food, act

>

> as his chiropractor, walk with him (while he used a cane and pretended

>

> to be really weak), get him food from the store, and listen for hours

>

> on end as he whined and complained and cried. (I have *a lot* of

>

> stories from that time period... I'll spare you them. Suffice it to

>

> say all his behavior patterns were seriously intensified.)

>

> (I know his illness was fake because he complained of logically

>

> inconsistent symptoms that fluctuated depending on what he'd read on

>

> the internet that day, and the " symptoms " that were visible, like

>

> muscle twitches and nystagmus, he could consciously produce to

>

> demonstrate... and he was *so* *very* *defensive* about his illness

>

> and reacted with *such* rage when anyone challenged him on it.)

>

> I went to college 500 miles away, but he still called me to whine, and

>

> things were just the same when I was home. My mom finally kicked him

>

> out my sophomore year (after he had spent tens of thousands of dollars

>

> on quack treatments), but she still insisted I had to see him because

>

> it was my familial duty, and he treated me just the same.

>

> Then, the next year, the divorce was finalized, and he somehow became

>

> sane enough to go back to work (he's still crazy, and he still

>

> continues in these same behavior patterns, and he still acts like

>

> *something's* physically wrong with him and takes a bunch of quack

>

> supplements, and he has started manifesting some *new* crazinesses;

>

> but he can do his job, and he can carry on a conversation without

>

> mentioning his " illness " or quack treatments).

>

> .... And now I'm independent and free. I haven't spoken to him in

>

> months. I've ignored his phone calls and his emails, and I haven't

>

> gone home. (I know I'm going to have to see him the next time I go

>

> home, and I'm not sure how I'm going to deal with his response. It'll

>

> either be anger or the pathetic whining that's almost worse.)

>

> And the thing I'm *really* concerned about is that I'm afraid I'm just

>

> like him. Over the past year, I've gained a lot of awareness of the

>

> ways in which my behavior resembles his:

>

> I can't deal with criticism, at all. I'm incapable of accepting it and

>

> correcting my behavior; I argue it, and when I can't argue anymore,

>

> I'll say something like, " All right, I know I'm a horrible person. "

>

> I try to find excuses so that I can be let off the hook. I try very

>

> hard not to, and try to force myself to go to work no matter how sick

>

> I am, etc., but when someone tells me that I need to take time off, I

>

> *seize* that opportunity. I actually yearn for an excuse so that I

>

> don't have to deal with the responsibility of life any more. I don't

>

> think I would ever fake an illness and force others to take care of

>

> me, but I can feel that force pulling me.

>

> I manufacture all kinds of misery in my own life. I complain endlessly

>

> about problems and reject any fix that people suggest. I sequester

>

> myself from people and then complain about not having a social life.

>

> I've gotten my friends ensnared by projective identifications a bunch

>

> of times.

>

> I am (as I just recently admitted to myself) manipulative. Very much

>

> so. I very often set it up so that other people will argue with me,

>

> and they'll argue what I want to hear, and I'll get to wallow in

>

> self-indulgent depressive misery. ( " Fishing for compliments " is a

>

> subset of this.) I manipulate people into giving me reassurance and

>

> mercy and support; I manipulate them into pronouncing me innocent,

>

> which is what I want to hear but will never believe.

>

> I've picked up his habit of splitting, and I can't get rid of it. I

>

> can only see good or bad. If I squint hard enough, I can make myself

>

> think I see shades of gray, but when I stop concentrating it all goes

>

> back to black and white.

>

> There are a lot more patterns like this.

>

> And when I think about all these things, my first reaction is to want

>

> to make a big confession to my friends, of the form " I'm such a stupid

>

> idiot. I'm such a horrible person, " which is basically " Let me be down

>

> on myself so you'll take me back. "

>

> It's like these patterns have a hold on me and cannot let me go, like

>

> they're written into me. And every action falls into them - *even

>

> trying to stop doing them*.

>

> And I'm afraid my destiny is to turn into him, even though that is the

>

> one thing I swore I would never do.

>

> If anyone has advice on how to avoid that, and how to break these

>

> patterns, I'd like to hear it.

>

> Wow, sorry for the long post.

>

June 26, 2008

wow, , that sounds like an incredible amount to go through and

survive. You should pat yourself on the back that the man hasn't

driven you into a mental institution. I can relate to some of the

patterns you've talked about, I have a fada who has both bpd and npd

traits and that narcissism ( " you are about me " ) I can really relate

to, that was my dad's only way of relating to his children as well.

The thing is, bpd people don't do that kind of self-examination like

what you have done here. Most average every day people don't have the

kind of self-awareness that you do at 23, but especially a bpd will

blame all their problems on someone else. They don't have the maturity

to look inside. But it does seem to be a common thing with children of

bpd's to think they are bpd as well. I think you are on the right

path, being so aware of what you have been put through being treated

like your dad's 'mini-me' and knowing as well that you have picked up

some coping mechanisms and behaviors. Hugs.

June 26, 2008

Thanks!

Yes, I have a therapist; she's mostly psychodynamically oriented, and

I don't know what she thinks of DBT.

I just read the seminal work on it (_Cognitive-Behavioral Treatment of

Borderline Personality Disorder_). I found it very interesting and

informative, but reading it was quite emotionally difficult. There

were a lot of places where it stated, " Borderline individuals do X

because Y, " and my reaction was, " *I* do X because Y... does that mean

my dad also does X because Y? And if so, don't I have to judge myself

with the exact same measure that I judge him with? " And I also had to

keep repeating to myself, " I. Am. Not. Borderline. (... I hope...) "

And when it said, " They get that way because of Z, " I often thought,

" I know what Z is like, and it's pretty awful... does that mean I have

to cut him a lot of slack because of it? "

I'm still struggling with the issue of moral judgment, and what I have

a right to feel towards him. It seems like if I engage in similar

behaviors for similar reasons, I don't have a right to judge myself

any less harshly than I judge him. What I really *feel* like doing is

judging him to be 100% guilty and myself to be 100% innocent (can we

say splitting?); I know that's not reasonable, but I don't know what is...

And it seems like I ought to have compassion on him because he

probably got that way because he had a miserable childhood (which I

never heard much about, but his mother, who is now senile and whom I

never really knew, sounds like a narcissist or something from what

I've heard and seen of her... and you don't get as screwed up as he is

without going through some nasty stuff). And I really don't want to.

I don't know what to do with this. I'm afraid that if I let go of the

very harsh constraints I put on my feelings and stop forcing myself to

be " fair " and " nonjudgmental " and " enlightened, " I will judge him more

harshly than he deserves, and let myself off the hook when I am not

innocent and in fact am perpetuating the behaviors I learned from him.

And then maybe I'll turn into him, and become unreachable.

You all may think these fears are unfounded. I think there's at least

*something* to them.

>

> Hi and welcome to the group! It sounds to me like you've

already taken a great step in recognizing behaviors that you want to

change. Do you see a therapist at all? If you are interested in

changing the behaviors that you don't like and believe them to be

engrained, you may want to work with a professional in Dialectic

Behavioral Therapy. As for Dad, we are here to help validate your

problems and feelings! Hope you find this group as fulfilling as I do!

>

> Take Care Of You,

> JaneSoul

>

June 26, 2008

,

You wrote: What I really *feel* like doing is judging him to be 100%

guilty and myself to be 100% innocent (can we say splitting?); I know

that's not reasonable, but I don't know what is...

I don't think 100% guilty/100% innocent is all that unreasonable.

After all, he was an adult and you were a child. You were utterly

dependent upon him for survival and nurturing and he was responsible

for providing the means for your survival and nurturing; he brought

you into being. He had a crummy childhood and made choices to treat

you in a certain way, negating his responsibility and foisting it and

his pain upon you. You had a crummy childhood and you are making

very different choices now. It doesn't sound like splitting to me,

it just sounds pretty clear cut! Maybe you're not ready yet to let

him be on the hook (the hook he earned, by the way), but please

consider at least letting *yourself* off the hook.

Take the " flea " idea seriously. It's not just a simple matter of

having picked up his behaviors, it's also a matter of him having

rewarded your behaviors when they resembled his and punishing your

behaviors that didn't. You did a lot of learning, mostly learning

how to survive, and now there's some unlearning to do. You're waaaay

ahead of the game figuring it out in your 20s and you should take

some pride in that. I'm glad to hear you're in therapy as that will

help too. Welcome to our group. We're here for you.

June 26, 2008

---

,

I understand everything you're saying. It sounds like you have only

been out of this toxic system for a year. That's not very long. I

think that physical separation from the crazy parent/family is the

first step toward healing. Once away from it, you can start to see

things more objectively and really dissect it -how crazy it was and

how it affected you. Of course you are going to repeat some of the

behaviors. They were modeled for you, and the fears behind them (ex.

abandonment) instilled in you.

I think that being very smart, you are probably able

to " intellectually understand things " that are difficult to change

quickly. I think you really need to utilize a therapist to help you

with some of your relationships. As Kyla would say, you've been

given a faulty road map and are just setting out on your journey.

Some of these issues I think can only be worked out thru

relationships. For example, when I was married to my first H, I was

verbally abusive to him, much like my nada was to my father. But

with my second H (OK, so maybe this doesn't sound so good), I was not

like this at all - had none of these behaviors.

I think that as others have said, we tend to blame ourselves so

much.

I think you are just starting your journey.

Joanna

>

> Yes, I have a therapist; she's mostly psychodynamically oriented,

and

> I don't know what she thinks of DBT.

>

> I just read the seminal work on it (_Cognitive-Behavioral Treatment

of

> Borderline Personality Disorder_). I found it very interesting and

> informative, but reading it was quite emotionally difficult. There

> were a lot of places where it stated, " Borderline individuals do X

> because Y, " and my reaction was, " *I* do X because Y... does that

mean

> my dad also does X because Y? And if so, don't I have to judge

myself

> with the exact same measure that I judge him with? " And I also had

to

> keep repeating to myself, " I. Am. Not. Borderline. (... I hope...) "

>

> And when it said, " They get that way because of Z, " I often thought,

> " I know what Z is like, and it's pretty awful... does that mean I

have

> to cut him a lot of slack because of it? "

>

> I'm still struggling with the issue of moral judgment, and what I

have

> a right to feel towards him. It seems like if I engage in similar

> behaviors for similar reasons, I don't have a right to judge myself

> any less harshly than I judge him. What I really *feel* like doing

is

> judging him to be 100% guilty and myself to be 100% innocent (can we

> say splitting?); I know that's not reasonable, but I don't know

what is...

>

> And it seems like I ought to have compassion on him because he

> probably got that way because he had a miserable childhood (which I

> never heard much about, but his mother, who is now senile and whom I

> never really knew, sounds like a narcissist or something from what

> I've heard and seen of her... and you don't get as screwed up as he

is

> without going through some nasty stuff). And I really don't want to.

>

> I don't know what to do with this. I'm afraid that if I let go of

the

> very harsh constraints I put on my feelings and stop forcing myself

to

> be " fair " and " nonjudgmental " and " enlightened, " I will judge him

more

> harshly than he deserves, and let myself off the hook when I am not

> innocent and in fact am perpetuating the behaviors I learned from

him.

> And then maybe I'll turn into him, and become unreachable.

>

> You all may think these fears are unfounded. I think there's at

least

> *something* to them.

>

> >

> > Hi and welcome to the group! It sounds to me like you've

> already taken a great step in recognizing behaviors that you want to

> change. Do you see a therapist at all? If you are interested in

> changing the behaviors that you don't like and believe them to be

> engrained, you may want to work with a professional in Dialectic

> Behavioral Therapy. As for Dad, we are here to help validate your

> problems and feelings! Hope you find this group as fulfilling as I

do!

> >

> > Take Care Of You,

> > JaneSoul

> >

>

June 28, 2008

Hey there,

I had to think long and hard about how to respond to your post. I am 26, my

parents are BDP/NARC and it has taken me quite a while not only to understand

it, but to escape it. The interesting thing is that I was finally able to

understand how to escape it by returning home.

What you are going through now sounds like what I was going through years ago,

except that I didn't know about BDP. I just knew that my parents were being

abusive.

I too had the fear of turning into my parents, especially my father. That fear

finally disappeared this week when a very good friend of mine let me know about

psychosomatic conditioning, brainwashing and mind control.

For me I am able to escape emotionally because I understand that I am not

fighting them. I am recovering from my conditioning.

From your posting your father conditioned you to fulfill his needs from a very

early age. Step back and think about all the things that a child needs to learn

about him/herself in order to have a healthy view of life. Did you have the

opportunity to learn this from your father?

What I have come to accept is that I never had the opportunity to experience my

true self. I was simply trying to survive.

It sounds like now that you have escaped physically you are confronting how you

learned to survive and life is teaching you that what you learned in the past

won't work going forward. You are now confronted with escaping mentally.

When I reached this moment in my life it created a tremendous amount of fear.

Honestly I simply didn't know how to survive. I remember telling my friend that

I didn't know how to be human. I felt like I had to learn everything from

scratch.

This is also an important part of owning yourself. It is a difficult process,

you can feel insane sometimes...double guessing is this me or is this my father.

I.E. the fact that you see BDP tendencies in yourself and you remind yourself

that you are not BDP.

This is a difficult point. My advice to you is to remind yourself that you know

who you are. You are not your problems, you are not your trauma, you are not a

sum of your past. Remind yourself that you know who you are because then you

have choices. Once you acknowledge something you can choose to heal and overcome

it.

This doesn't mean that things will be easy. For example, I suffer from

depression. It has taken me years to accept this, years to acknowledge this

because I know that it is as a result of how I was conditioned. For a long time,

that label made me feel like less of a person. It reminded me that I couldn't

protect myself etc. Now I have gotten to the point where I have thrown all of

that overboard. I have accepted that I suffer from depression and I may always

suffer from it. I have had to start a process of coming to peace with it, so

that it doesn't control my life.

In your heart you know who you want to be. Discuss that with your therapist and

dedicate yourself to your recovery and you WILL be okay.

Recovery

Intro

Hi all,

I found this group a few months ago, but never got around to posting.

So let me remedy that and introduce myself.

I'm 23, and I work as a computer programmer. It's been about a year

since I graduated from college and escaped from my family and my

hometown.

I believe my father has BPD or something similar. I've known for a

very long time that there was something wrong with him - that he was

never really a parent, and my family was never really a family, but

rather a rotting shack behind the facade of a somewhat normal-looking

house.

The manner in which he related to me was at *best* weird and creepy.

He tried to make me into whatever he needed at the moment: someone to

agree with his opinions, someone to affirm that he, or someone

associated with him, was *good* and others were *bad*, someone who

would take his side instead of my mom's...

And someone to do his work for him. He started making me do work on

the rental house he owned when I was six, and I think he started

making me give him back massages before that (I *had* to do it because

he was in *so* much *pain*, you see...). When I was seven or eight, he

started making me enter piles and piles of stock data into the

computer for him (because I was good with computers and he wasn't, you

see) and mark his tests (because he was *so busy*).

And someone to show off. I was a very precocious child, and he got a

charge out of showing me off to his colleagues, or his friends, or the

owner of the Chinese restaurant, or strangers in the supermarket. .. He

had me in all kinds of lessons, like foreign languages and music, and

made me demonstrate those skills to anyone who would watch. He tells

me he was doing this when I was still in diapers (demonstrating my

reading ability to customers at his friend's bar).

He constantly projected things onto me. He told me what I thought or

felt all the time and refused to listen when I said that wasn't true

(like, he would come back from the store and say, " Look, I got this

yogurt because you like it, " and I'd tell him that I *didn't* like it,

and three days later this exact thing would be repeated).

And the splitting... oh man, the splitting. Most of the time I was

*good* because I was smart (or at least, *better* than everyone else

because I was *smarter*; in his world all value is comparative) , but

if I got on his bad side he would *rage* at me. He'd have me up

against the wall, and tower over me, and scream that I was such a

rotten kid and he was never going to let me see my friends or go to

any activities again.

He never followed through on any of these threats, which made me feel

guilty because I thought I wasn't getting what I deserved.. And he only