Re: Need Advice on how to handle please

[Guest guest]

Tony,

Based on my experience I would apologize. Not to prove they are right and you

are wrong but instead just to do the good and decent thing most humans do for

one another after they hurt someone. Would you apologize to your friend if you

had called her a bitch? I bet you would. THis helps me because the apology is

not seen as something that keeps me entangled in their mess but instead

something I do as a human being. You could even tell her you are apologizing to

her because you made a mistake by calling her a bitch. I would keep it short and

sweet. Then when she tries to lay the guilt on you, remain disconnected to her.

I know what you mean by witholding apologies from BPD people because they assume

when you apologize then it is there right to drag you over the hot burning

coals. This is not part of an apology. An apology is a single focused act on

your behalf and that is it. Her response doesn't matter. In doing this you are

acting as you would like someone in this situation to act toward you and you are

also helping your Grandma (although I don't see how your apology should help

your Grandma but this is how enmeshed families operate). My father also did what

your Grandma did to you after my mother's last insult. He told me she was crying

all day, depressed, and he had never seen her like this before in his life and

wanted to know what I was going to do about it. I had in fact done nothing

except set up boundaries with her to protect my son and just a day before gave

birth to my second child. He called me in my hospital bed to ask me how I was

going to clear up the situation with my mother. Families who are dysfunctional

always want you to solve their problems which is by in fact not solving them but

just brushing them under the rug and moving on. Your apology is up to you these

are just my thoughts.

Kelley

To: WTOAdultChildren1@...: tmess9@...: Fri, 28 Dec

2007 12:58:21 +0000Subject: Need Advice on how to handle

please

So last I told you guys was how my grandma tried talking to me about " doing the

kind thing, not whats right " and i was stressed about it. Well, i picked her up

from her house to bring her over for dinner with my wife and I. I was very

stressed out doing this because I was worried that she would bring it up again.

I felt like I did when I was meeting with my parents prior to going NC, very

anxious knowing that something stressful was going to be brought up.Well I was

right that she was going to bring it up. She told me that I need to appologize,

because it is the kind thing to do. She said that she has never seen my dad so

sad, he isnt sleeping, and he crys all the time and she hates seeing him like

this. (by the way, the thing she wants me to appologize for is calling my mom a

bitch, after my mom had already called my wife a bitch, and me an ungrateful

bitch, and stormed into my house uninvited). So I told her I am sorry that she

has been hurt by this, but my parents have hurt me too. She then said well didnt

they appologize to you in an email, and I told her that my mom did, but only to

my wife, I did not get any appology. She said that I need to be the bigger

person, and tell them to put this all behind us so we can move on. I told her

that I have attempted this, and they have not been able to move on, and now my

mom has sent me an email that she said very hurtful things in and I am still

trying to get over it. She just kept saying that I need to be the bigger person

here and appologize to them.I do not know how to take this. My grandma started

crying at many points of this conversation, which killed me to see her so sad. I

tried telling her that I am sorry she has been involved in this, but to please

not worry about it, she should be happy and thinking happy things like about her

grandchildren and great grandchildren. She told me she cannnot be happy with all

of this going on.I am so mad at my parents for bringing her into this, and

making me look like the bad person to my grandma. Part of me last night wanted

to call and yell at my parents for this, but I know it would not have

accomplished anything. Another part of me wanted to call and just appologize for

calling my mom a bitch, and that is all i would say, so then they couldnt tell

anything negative to my grandma anymore. But then I thought, who is to know if

they will stop there, maybe they will tell her something else I have done

horrible. I started to think that this was just their way of controlling me

through another person, to get me to contact them. And if i do what my grandma

wants, then they know again another way to have control over me. But at the same

time, I hate seeing my grandma sad, she is 85 and this is the last thing she

should be worrying about. It is also so sad that it is me that is thinking of

her feelings, and not my parents (her child).Any advice on how to handle this

would be appreciated? Should I just remain NC with my parents, or call and

appologize for calling my mom the name? Do I bring up them talking so negatively

to my Grandma? Do I just ignore them, but then what do I do for my Grandma so

she isnt worrying about this? Just feel like there is no good answer to this

situation. Thanks again for everyones help!Tony

_________________________________________________________________

Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary!

http://club.live.com/chicktionary.aspx?icid=chick_wlhmtextlink1_dec

[Guest guest]

Tony,

This is a tough one. From what I understand you are NC with Nada. Do you want

to start

contact again, or would this just be an apology for grandma's sake and then no

contact

I guess the really important question is, do you want to apologize? do you feel

the need to

apologize? Is the fact that you haven't apologized keeping you up at night (not

including

how it is making your grandma feel).

I know it is hard when grandmas get in the mix -- mine is 94 and currently

living with

Nada but you have to do what is right for you. IMO doing what is right for

everyone else

is what got us here so to speak. I would do anything for grandma, except

something I

don't want to do involving Nada

For example they have been begging me to come visit, my last visit with Nada so

so

emotionally draining, I felt like I lost my soul. It took me 2 months to get

over it and feel

human again. So while I love my grandma, and know she is not going to be around

forever, I can't jeopardize my well being to go visit her until I am strong

enough to deal

with Nada. my grandma came over from poland and in her teens and never really

assimilated so she would never understand. Instead I just tell her, I will

come visit soon,

it usually buys me a couple of weeks before the question is asked again

Oh, and from your posts is this your dad's mother? Maybe you can explain what

is going

on, since it isn't her biological child?

I think the most important thing to remember, is that at this point of your

life, you are

trying to get your life back, and the only person you should worry about

dissapointing is

your yourself. with that in mind, do you think you should apologize?

Hope this helps,

L

[Guest guest]

Yes it is my dad's mom, and I really do not know why this is affecting me dad so

much, except maybe he is just really enmeshed, or feels like he failed as a

father, i really do not know. A day after my mom wrote the appology email to my

wife for calling her a bitch, my dad left me a voicemail telling me that he

cannot believe i had not appologized yet, and I am out of his life until I do

so. i did not give in to this threat since i as well felt i deserved an

appology for all the nasty things my mom said to me. Then a day after that is

when i got that very long, hurtful email from my mom. Besides a breif

interaction at a family get together a month ago, we have not seen or talked to

eachother. Hopefully that clears up the situation. This whole thing just seems

so F'd up to me.

Anyways, I guess if i appologized, i would be breaking the NC, but it would be

for my grandma. I would keep to just a minimal conversation, and just

appologize and get off. but i know in the past i have had great difficulty

getting off the phone with them. They have always said, well I am not getting

off the phone, I am not done speaking, so does that mean you are hanging up on

your parents? i know i would hopefully handle this better now, but I do not

know. I guess I would be doing it more for my grandma then for myself. I think

my mom was being a bitch, and she deserved to hear it. Although i should not

have said it, and it was wrong. i am torn what to do here because i see the

benefits and negative aspects of both. i appreciate all the input so far.

T

Re: Need Advice on how to handle please

Tony,

This is a tough one. From what I understand you are NC with Nada. Do you want to

start

contact again, or would this just be an apology for grandma's sake and then no

contact

I guess the really important question is, do you want to apologize? do you feel

the need to

apologize? Is the fact that you haven't apologized keeping you up at night (not

including

how it is making your grandma feel).

I know it is hard when grandmas get in the mix -- mine is 94 and currently

living with

Nada but you have to do what is right for you. IMO doing what is right for

everyone else

is what got us here so to speak. I would do anything for grandma, except

something I

don't want to do involving Nada

For example they have been begging me to come visit, my last visit with Nada so

so

emotionally draining, I felt like I lost my soul. It took me 2 months to get

over it and feel

human again. So while I love my grandma, and know she is not going to be around

forever, I can't jeopardize my well being to go visit her until I am strong

enough to deal

with Nada. my grandma came over from poland and in her teens and never really

assimilated so she would never understand. Instead I just tell her, I will come

visit soon,

it usually buys me a couple of weeks before the question is asked again

Oh, and from your posts is this your dad's mother? Maybe you can explain what is

going

on, since it isn't her biological child?

I think the most important thing to remember, is that at this point of your

life, you are

trying to get your life back, and the only person you should worry about

dissapointing is

your yourself. with that in mind, do you think you should apologize?

Hope this helps,

L

________________________________________________________________________________\

____

Be a better friend, newshound, and

know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ

[Guest guest]

Yes, Tony you COULD briefly break your NC to apologize for your

calling your mom a bitch -- for 3 reasons:

1) It clears up what you did -- that way you've done the right thing

and they can't continually hang you for it. It clears your

conscience. I'd make it brief and to the point -- a full apology

that really transmits that you're sorry you used that term. Then,

get off the phone. Politely disengage and hang up.

2) By clearing the slate with the apology, you can resume NC --

which will baffle them if they intended for your apology to be a

victory for them. If they think your apology to mom is an

indication you're back in their " game " and bent to their will, time

will prove them sadly mistaken. This is a marathon, not a sprint --

the occasional apology won't hurt, and it will preserve your dignity

and integrity. You can learn from it to stay disengaged from your

mother's name-calling rages -- because getting you to react and get

as down and dirty as she is, is a victory for her.

After throwing them an apology -- wish them a great day and get off

the phone. Boom -- get on with your life! Apologizing for an

unfortunate choice of words doesn't mean you haven't correctly

identified that they are a SICK system, and you have wisely chosen

to stay out of that storm.

NC is more of a lifestyle choice for you -- a turning point in your

relationship with them. A single apology won't change that.

As for your grandmother, I'd cut off her constant harping on your

relationship with the broken record technique -- when she starts in,

you can pat her on the hand and lovingly say " Grandma, I know you

care, but I'm doing the best I can. Let's not talk about

that. " ......When she says " Yes, but... " cut her off again.

If she gets angry with you and cuts herself off from you, sadly

she's too enmeshed with your parents' drama to be present in a

relationship with you. Take whatever she can give and don't let her

work on your mind. She already knows she can wear you down with

repeating the message over and over -- politely, firmly nip that in

the bud. She might be getting a payoff over " reuniting " the family,

but you are not a sacrifice in that effort. Your relationship with

your parents is a separate entity from Grandma, and she doesn't get

to endlessly give orders from the sidelines.

-Kyla

[Guest guest]

Tony,

I totally agree with Kyla, while difficult, it is possible to just get off the

phone.

One thing I would have to be careful with for myself (this may not apply to

you) is that with

my Nada, doesn't accept a simple anything, so I would have to psych myself up

for the event,

almost like preparing to speak to an auditorium of 10,000.

I wish you luck.

Another thought, wouldn't it be great to start the New Year, knowing you

apologized, and not

having to think about that incident any more. Kind of like tying up all loose

ends?

L

[Guest guest]

My main concern is that they see that well we can get to me through my Grandma,

so they will continue to do so. When I posted that letter, i forget who here

had kind of interpreted it for me. And the part where my mom talked about how i

should be ashamed for using one of their friends to help do my housework, was

interpreted as my parents trying to control me through anyone that they can. So

i kind of feel like this is just another way of them to control me. That if all

that they are upset about is me calling my mom that one bad word, then that is

pretty sad. If i do appologize, i feel it is maybe a trap to open up other ways

for them to try and manipulate my grandma into getting me to do things. I dont

know if that makes any sense. I guess i would like to be sure it is the best

move for me, and making boundaries with my parents to call them and appologize

for this, when i have gotten no sort of thing from them. Thanks for all your

input so far.

T

Re: Need Advice on how to handle please

Tony,

I totally agree with Kyla, while difficult, it is possible to just get off the

phone.

One thing I would have to be careful with for myself (this may not apply to you)

is that with

my Nada, doesn't accept a simple anything, so I would have to psych myself up

for the event,

almost like preparing to speak to an auditorium of 10,000.

I wish you luck.

Another thought, wouldn't it be great to start the New Year, knowing you

apologized, and not

having to think about that incident any more. Kind of like tying up all loose

ends?

L

________________________________________________________________________________\

____

Looking for last minute shopping deals?

Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping

[Guest guest]

T,

I hear you, you can look at it this way, if you apologize and then have no

further contact

they won't have anything else to try and get through your grandma.

This is logically thinking which doesn't necessarily blend with BPD so it is

possible that

they will come up with something to try to manipulate through your grandma, but

at that

point you could feel comfortable saying, Grandma, no -- I apologized, I am

done!

As for the trap, I think the more aware you are --- the less likely you are of

falling into

the traps they lay, at least that has been my experience with Nada

L

>

> My main concern is that they see that well we can get to me through my

Grandma, so

they will continue to do so. When I posted that letter, i forget who here had

kind of

interpreted it for me. And the part where my mom talked about how i should be

ashamed

for using one of their friends to help do my housework, was interpreted as my

parents

trying to control me through anyone that they can. So i kind of feel like this

is just another

way of them to control me. That if all that they are upset about is me calling

my mom that

one bad word, then that is pretty sad. If i do appologize, i feel it is maybe a

trap to open

up other ways for them to try and manipulate my grandma into getting me to do

things. I

dont know if that makes any sense. I guess i would like to be sure it is the

best move for

me, and making boundaries with my parents to call them and appologize for this,

when i

have gotten no sort of thing from them. Thanks for all your input so far.

> T

>

>

[Guest guest]

Tony, For what it is worth, after her sending that scathing letter via

email to you, I would just hold my peace. Even an apology from you

will not change anything. They are the ones at fault for involving

grandma, and they are the ones who need to apologize to her. I truly

don't see an apology from you making things ok. You are completely

justified in letting them stew in their own self designed problem and

just going on with your life. And you are right. If they find out it

works to involve grandma, they will do it again and again. Give

yourself a break your indescression of calling names pales when

compared to the email you received. Do what your gut tells you to do.

Just my thoughts on this. Dee

>

> My main concern is that they see that well we can get to me through

my Grandma, so they will continue to do so. When I posted that

letter, i forget who here had kind of interpreted it for me. And the

part where my mom talked about how i should be ashamed for using one

of their friends to help do my housework, was interpreted as my

parents trying to control me through anyone that they can. So i kind

of feel like this is just another way of them to control me. That if

all that they are upset about is me calling my mom that one bad word,

then that is pretty sad. If i do appologize, i feel it is maybe a

trap to open up other ways for them to try and manipulate my grandma

into getting me to do things. I dont know if that makes any sense. I

guess i would like to be sure it is the best move for me, and making

boundaries with my parents to call them and appologize for this, when

i have gotten no sort of thing from them. Thanks for all your input

so far.

> T

>

>

> Re: Need Advice on how to handle please

>

> Tony,

>

> I totally agree with Kyla, while difficult, it is possible to just

get off the phone.

>

> One thing I would have to be careful with for myself (this may not

apply to you) is that with

> my Nada, doesn't accept a simple anything, so I would have to psych

myself up for the event,

> almost like preparing to speak to an auditorium of 10,000.

>

> I wish you luck.

>

> Another thought, wouldn't it be great to start the New Year, knowing

you apologized, and not

> having to think about that incident any more. Kind of like tying up

all loose ends?

>

> L

>

>

>

>

>

>

________________________________________________________________________________\

____

> Looking for last minute shopping deals?

> Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping

>

>

[Guest guest]

Then you have to cut off the " Grandma " railroad! Tony, sometimes

they send in a sweet little old grandma as the perfect trojan horse -

- and I don't know your grandmother, but many, many elderly people

KNOW they can play this card and play it to the hilt to get what

they want. After all, who doesn't feel sorry for a little old

lady? My grandmother used that role to the hilt -- and sometimes it

angered me that she could use people that way. She was a very

selfish woman all her life. She had her wonderful, sweet, laughter

filled moments with me, too. But there were times when I saw her

dig in and expect a LOT from her children -- good mothers don't do

that.

I posted earlier that using the broken record works wonders -- just

keep cutting off any further discussion of that subject. If she

won't move on, then she's as agenda driven as your parents are --

and that's really a selfish way to behave: cramming your single

agenda down everyone's throats, despite them stating their wish not

to talk about it.

So, I'd close the door of conversation every time Grandma tries to

steer it to any " issue " with your parents.

And be careful of this " issue by issue " trap with your parents.

Stop addressing each insult your mother throws your way -- in a way,

that means you have to stop " feeling " it. I know that seems hard,

but getting into a point by point discussion or argument with them

is pointless. Detach from caring whether your mother thinks you

have the right housekeeper, or the right car, or the right debt

plan, etc. You're all grown up now and don't need that kind of

strife heaped on you -- whether it's by a stranger or your mother or

grandmother is no matter. Respect yourself and command respect from

all in your circle. You can do it politely, firmly and with

detachment.

Your suspicion is correct: YES -- they're using your grandmother to

get to you. My mother uses my dad. It's standard operating

procedure in a personality disorder. Using your grandmother? You

can stand up to that, too.

-Kyla

>

> My main concern is that they see that well we can get to me

through my Grandma, so they will continue to do so. When I posted

that letter, i forget who here had kind of interpreted it for me.

And the part where my mom talked about how i should be ashamed for

using one of their friends to help do my housework, was interpreted

as my parents trying to control me through anyone that they can. So

i kind of feel like this is just another way of them to control me.

That if all that they are upset about is me calling my mom that one

bad word, then that is pretty sad. If i do appologize, i feel it is

maybe a trap to open up other ways for them to try and manipulate my

grandma into getting me to do things. I dont know if that makes any

sense. I guess i would like to be sure it is the best move for me,

and making boundaries with my parents to call them and appologize

for this, when i have gotten no sort of thing from them. Thanks for

all your input so far.

> T

>

>

> Re: Need Advice on how to handle

please

>

> Tony,

>

> I totally agree with Kyla, while difficult, it is possible to just

get off the phone.

>

> One thing I would have to be careful with for myself (this may not

apply to you) is that with

> my Nada, doesn't accept a simple anything, so I would have to

psych myself up for the event,

> almost like preparing to speak to an auditorium of 10,000.

>

> I wish you luck.

>

> Another thought, wouldn't it be great to start the New Year,

knowing you apologized, and not

> having to think about that incident any more. Kind of like tying

up all loose ends?

>

> L

>

>

>

>

>

>

_____________________________________________________________________

_______________

> Looking for last minute shopping deals?

> Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?

category=shopping

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Tony,

I'm sorry you're going through this painful situation with your family. I agree

that a quick and to-the-point apology would suffice. And since your parents

won't let you off the phone easily -- could you just send the apology by email -

- perhaps as a 'reply' to the nasty-gram your mom sent to you?

That way you would have done your part, without getting drawn back in to the

drama/trauma.

Good luck -- we're all rooting for you!

AZClown

Re: Need Advice on how to handle please

Tony,

This is a tough one. From what I understand you are NC with Nada. Do you want to

start

contact again, or would this just be an apology for grandma's sake and then no

contact

I guess the really important question is, do you want to apologize? do you feel

the need to

apologize? Is the fact that you haven't apologized keeping you up at night (not

including

how it is making your grandma feel).

I know it is hard when grandmas get in the mix -- mine is 94 and currently

living with

Nada but you have to do what is right for you. IMO doing what is right for

everyone else

is what got us here so to speak. I would do anything for grandma, except

something I

don't want to do involving Nada

For example they have been begging me to come visit, my last visit with Nada so

so

emotionally draining, I felt like I lost my soul. It took me 2 months to get

over it and feel

human again. So while I love my grandma, and know she is not going to be around

forever, I can't jeopardize my well being to go visit her until I am strong

enough to deal

with Nada. my grandma came over from poland and in her teens and never really

assimilated so she would never understand. Instead I just tell her, I will come

visit soon,

it usually buys me a couple of weeks before the question is asked again

Oh, and from your posts is this your dad's mother? Maybe you can explain what is

going

on, since it isn't her biological child?

I think the most important thing to remember, is that at this point of your

life, you are

trying to get your life back, and the only person you should worry about

dissapointing is

your yourself. with that in mind, do you think you should apologize?

Hope this helps,

L

________________________________________________________________________________\

____

Be a better friend, newshound, and

know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ