Re: Talking to my teens about leaving/mom

[Guest guest]

Hey ,

Wow, thank you for all that you are doing. I really admire you for standing

up to your wife and taking care of your kids.

Interesting questions, I'd never thought of how much to talk about the

issues with your kids, but I wouldn't talk too much about mom's sickness

during the process of the divorce. The kids are going to be more interested

in and concerned about immediate issues. You say more with your actions than

with your words. So, if - errr when - their mother does something

outlandish, if you have their back, then that says it all. Another thing

that I believe really helps kids, esp that age, is to have an adult friend

who is supportive. I relyed a LOT on my teachers and my dad's friends for

support and positive reinforcement. I took guitar and music lessons and that

really helped me find a " sane " place and I also took sewing and other art

classes. Having sane adults in my life outside the family gave me some of

what I needed.

That said, I also wouldn't hide anything or keep any secrets. Your kids are

old enough to understand, I understood that my mother was seriously mentally

ill by kindergarten because she told me and told me often! So I know your

kids will " get it. " There are a lot of fiction books with similar story

lines, and I spent a lot of time alone and reading as a kid. That could help

them understand too. Now that I'm grown, I teach kids part time and I spend

a lot of time researching this kind of stuff so let me know if you want book

recomends for your kids. I would honestly answer any questions that they

have, and give them books that are age-appropriate that will make them feel

less alone. I wouldn't chase them down with the info though, because

honestly, their lives are so much more important than their Nadas and they

have so many more immediate concerns.

When you have moved and the kids are settled in, let your kids make the

choice of whether or not to talk about mom's sickness. Bring it up casually

and gently, and if they are interested, discuss it. If not, let it drop and

talk about soccer practice instead. I bet each of your kids will have a

totally different perspective. I am from a family of 2 and my brother, the

golden child, had a very different life than I did as the black child. I

knew a lot, in fact, way way way too much graphic detail about my mother's

health when I was a kid. I think you will be surprised by how mature they

will probably be.

I admire you and thank you for leaving. That action alone makes a huge huge

statement and will teach your daughters that LEAVING is an option. Through

your example, you can prevent them from ending up in an abusive relationship

in the future.

My dad was the most important person in my life and my best friend when I

was a child, but he made so so so many mistakes. Staying and enabling were

the top. Thanks for being a great dad, the world needs more men like you.

Hugs to you and especially to your kids! girlscout

>

> Hello All - Kyla & Girlscout in particular,

>

> Below is exactly the kind of father I am trying not to be. I always take

> my kids (14 & 17) side when they are right, AND my wife side when she is

> right -which seems to be less and less. I cant fathom kissing my wifes ass

> at the emotional expense of my kids.

>

> Im not sure if I have updated this list of my happenings lately. I have

> told both kids that I am planning on leaving in the near future, along with

> my parents and a few close friends. Everyone has been supportive.. I

> recently got in touch with my old Pastor who recently got his PhD in " family

> therapy " or somehting simlilar. He is VERY familiar with BPD. As I went over

> things with him he didnt seem hopeful (she refuses therapy), but was very

> validating and supportive too.

>

> Both kids have indicated that they would like to stay with me more than

> mom. I am thinking of trying for a " 60-40 " arrangement I have read up on and

> seems reachable.

>

> My question is this: the kids dont ask alot about " moms illness " even

> though we have talked about it in the past in general terms.They have more

> specific questoins about living conditions and things like that. I would

> like to tell them more things like " when she does X, this is how she

> probably sees things, which is different from how most people do " , so that

> they can better understand things. I dont know if it is a good thing to

> " lead " a conversation or wait for them to want to talk about things. My T

> says this is because my whole life I have always wanted to be the " good guy "

> and please everyone, and am worried too much about what the kids think of

> me. (he knows I am a thoughful considerate guy and am not going to trash

> talk her type of thing).

>

> So whats all of your input being grown kids of BPD's, do yu wish you had

> more info right away, or absorb it slowly?

>

> Thanks,

>

> DKC

>

>

>

>

>

>

> I see that you could identify with having a passive father when it

> came to a failure to protect you. I had not focused in before on the

> apologizing aspect, but, yes, my gosh! It's utterly sick to tell

> one's innocent child to go apologize (to the very person who should

> be apologizing to them)!

>

> It's a crime that you were cheated out of what could have been one of

> the most joyous moments of your life!! Announcing your engagement at

> Thanksgiving with your grandparents there COULD have made such a

> beautiful memory!! Instead of sharing a time of family bonding,

> making your fiance feel welcomed to the family, and rightfully

> celebrating the occasion... it sounded like such a deflating

> experience to sit there, holding it all in -- being told to act in

> denial of something exciting and precious... all to appease

> the " angry god. " What twisted " white-collar " evil!

>

> You hit the nail on the head in describing our fathers -- using us so

> they are not inconvenienced and do not have to face reality.

>

> Thank you for opening my eyes to more of what was going on, while

> lending your support, and helping to further the healing process.

>

> I am wishing you all the best on this journey -- and sending a hug in

> return!

>

> Everwaiteing

>

>

> > > >

> > > > Yeaaah. But as the parent it is his job to make sure the all of

> > the

> > > 90% was justified and not just her popping off at vulnerable

> kids.

> > > Was he getting ready for bed or was he ducking? >

> > > =========

> > >

> > > As the " twin sister " in ton2's story, I'd say our dad was

> > > ducking. I think he kind of felt sorry for us on one level, but

> > > decided we could handle it, and did not dare intervene - ever. I

> > > think he knew that if he did not allow her to vent her drama and

> > > emotions on us, then it could shift to him. On one occasion, my

> > > stepmom gave me the silent treatment for a prolonged time because

> > a

> > > small hole was discovered in the silverware tray of the

> > dishwasher --

> > > and I had been the last person to load the dishwasher. My dad was

> > > well aware of her silent treatment, and on the third morning that

> > she

> > > was ignoring me, he tipped me off that I should go tell her I was

> > > sorry. So, I did. It was confounding to me that she turned it

> > into

> > > an emotional scene as if she needed an apology fitting for a

> > sitution

> > > of personal betrayal -- rather than it just being a small hole in

> > the

> > > silverware tray. The personal offense she had taken and the drama

> > > that resulted were too weird for me to process in any logical

> way.

> > >

> > > In another instance, I was making salad for dinner per

> > instructions.

> > > I was deep in thought and probably appeared glum as I prepared

> the

> > > lettuce. Suddenly, she told me to " Get out of here! Go take a

> walk

> > > and don't come back until your heart is changed! " Feeling like I

> > was

> > > in the Twilight Zone, I headed out the door and started walking.

> > My

> > > dad happened to drive by on his way home. He stopped and rolled

> > down

> > > his window and ask where I was going. I told him that I was

> > supposed

> > > to stay out until my heart was changed. He just told me not to

> > stay

> > > out long and continued on home.

> > >

> > > My stepmom was my dad's second wife, and I think he firmly

> > committed

> > > himself to her, because starting over again was unthinkable to

> > him. I

> > > got the impression that he was determined to make the best of it.

> > > Some years after I left home, he made the comment to me that he

> > had

> > > married someone who was " over-reactive, " but that this was better

> > > than being with someone who was " under-reactive. " I got the

> > > impression that, at some point, he had to talk himself into

> > believing

> > > that.

> > >

> >

>

> __.._,_.___

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>

> To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

> () for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

> Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

> find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

>

> From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE

> and the SWOE Workbook.

>

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[Guest guest]

I'm so glad you're watching out for your kids, .

I don't have much time to write, so I'm going to dash off a couple

of thoughts --

If I had to pick the most hurtful thing of my childhood, it was that

my dad always took her side. I felt abandoned and alone. They were

a team -- I was left to twist in the wind. You're already a dad who

listens and takes their side (when necessary -- don't let them run

all over you!)

Let your kids know (which I'm sure they already do, but keep that

line open) that they can ask you questions and you'll answer them

(if appropriate, of course).

Your kids are older, they know by now that mom's not " right " (or it

will dawn on them eventually) and your leaving should'nt come as a

surprise -- I think they'll handle it fine.

They're almost grown, and your wife won't have the power to

interfere as much as each year goes by.

Offer them counseling if you can -- or if they want it.

Offer support and love and do the best you can. That's all anybody

can do. If your children know they are truly loved, they'll weather

this fine.

Oh, and to answer your question: I absorbed things slowly, but it

always stung when my dad didn't take up for me. I never thought he

was a safe place to unload my feelings and frustrations about mom.

If you are willing to talk, that would have made me feel valued and

validated. But, I'd wait for the questions to form in THEM -- don't

just hit them with a lot of information that's foremost in YOUR

mind. Let it play out like it plays out.

Take a breath. Just love your kids and answer the question that are

important to THEM. There's no time limit -- you can still be

answering questions 10 years from now. Listen to them. Show

empathy. (that's a BIG one)

Don't overthink it -- you know your kids better than anyone. It's

great you've got an advisor (the old pastor) who is familiar with

BPD. Keep his number closeby!

Good luck on this next " chapter " -- you'll be fine.

-Kyla

> > > >

> > > > Yeaaah. But as the parent it is his job to make sure the all

of

> > the

> > > 90% was justified and not just her popping off at vulnerable

> kids.

> > > Was he getting ready for bed or was he ducking? >

> > > =========

> > >

> > > As the " twin sister " in ton2's story, I'd say our dad

was

> > > ducking. I think he kind of felt sorry for us on one level,

but

> > > decided we could handle it, and did not dare intervene - ever.

I

> > > think he knew that if he did not allow her to vent her drama

and

> > > emotions on us, then it could shift to him. On one occasion,

my

> > > stepmom gave me the silent treatment for a prolonged time

because

> > a

> > > small hole was discovered in the silverware tray of the

> > dishwasher --

> > > and I had been the last person to load the dishwasher. My dad

was

> > > well aware of her silent treatment, and on the third morning

that

> > she

> > > was ignoring me, he tipped me off that I should go tell her I

was

> > > sorry. So, I did. It was confounding to me that she turned

it

> > into

> > > an emotional scene as if she needed an apology fitting for a

> > sitution

> > > of personal betrayal -- rather than it just being a small hole

in

> > the

> > > silverware tray. The personal offense she had taken and the

drama

> > > that resulted were too weird for me to process in any logical

> way.

> > >

> > > In another instance, I was making salad for dinner per

> > instructions.

> > > I was deep in thought and probably appeared glum as I prepared

> the

> > > lettuce. Suddenly, she told me to " Get out of here! Go take a

> walk

> > > and don't come back until your heart is changed! " Feeling like

I

> > was

> > > in the Twilight Zone, I headed out the door and started

walking.

> > My

> > > dad happened to drive by on his way home. He stopped and

rolled

> > down

> > > his window and ask where I was going. I told him that I was

> > supposed

> > > to stay out until my heart was changed. He just told me not to

> > stay

> > > out long and continued on home.

> > >

> > > My stepmom was my dad's second wife, and I think he firmly

> > committed

> > > himself to her, because starting over again was unthinkable to

> > him. I

> > > got the impression that he was determined to make the best of

it.

> > > Some years after I left home, he made the comment to me that

he

> > had

> > > married someone who was " over-reactive, " but that this was

better

> > > than being with someone who was " under-reactive. " I got the

> > > impression that, at some point, he had to talk himself into

> > believing

> > > that.

> > >

> >

>

> __.._,_.___

> Messages in this topic (24) Reply (via web post) | Start a new

topic

> Messages

> Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @...

SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

>

> To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-

SHELL () for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding

the Borderline Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline

Parent, " (Roth) which you can find at any bookstore. Welcome to the

WTO community!

>

> From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and

author SWOE and the SWOE Workbook.

>

> Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required)

> Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest |

Switch format to Traditional

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> Yahoo! Groups

> Find balance

> between nutrition,

> activity & well-being.

> .

>

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[Guest guest]

--

Another quick thought and then I've REALLY got to go to bed!

You might think about not getting into another relationship for

awhile, so that you can keep your focus on your daughters, their

emotional health, and your relationship with them. If a new lady is

on the scene, I think they will feel your attention is fractured,

and they might see it as a rejection.

Make these next few years the ones you devote to your kids' welfare,

until they are strong and sure that they are unconditionally loved

by their dad -- and they go to college or whatever they set out to

do -- then you can turn your attention to your own love life.

Just my two cents' worth. If I had a great dad that I knew I could

turn to after my parents' divorce -- I would be hurt if he was

distracted by a new love. It's a sacrifice for you at the moment,

but I think in the long run, well worth it.

-Kyla

> > > >

> > > > Yeaaah. But as the parent it is his job to make sure the all

of

> > the

> > > 90% was justified and not just her popping off at vulnerable

> kids.

> > > Was he getting ready for bed or was he ducking? >

> > > =========

> > >

> > > As the " twin sister " in ton2's story, I'd say our dad

was

> > > ducking. I think he kind of felt sorry for us on one level,

but

> > > decided we could handle it, and did not dare intervene - ever.

I

> > > think he knew that if he did not allow her to vent her drama

and

> > > emotions on us, then it could shift to him. On one occasion,

my

> > > stepmom gave me the silent treatment for a prolonged time

because

> > a

> > > small hole was discovered in the silverware tray of the

> > dishwasher --

> > > and I had been the last person to load the dishwasher. My dad

was

> > > well aware of her silent treatment, and on the third morning

that

> > she

> > > was ignoring me, he tipped me off that I should go tell her I

was

> > > sorry. So, I did. It was confounding to me that she turned

it

> > into

> > > an emotional scene as if she needed an apology fitting for a

> > sitution

> > > of personal betrayal -- rather than it just being a small hole

in

> > the

> > > silverware tray. The personal offense she had taken and the

drama

> > > that resulted were too weird for me to process in any logical

> way.

> > >

> > > In another instance, I was making salad for dinner per

> > instructions.

> > > I was deep in thought and probably appeared glum as I prepared

> the

> > > lettuce. Suddenly, she told me to " Get out of here! Go take a

> walk

> > > and don't come back until your heart is changed! " Feeling like

I

> > was

> > > in the Twilight Zone, I headed out the door and started

walking.

> > My

> > > dad happened to drive by on his way home. He stopped and

rolled

> > down

> > > his window and ask where I was going. I told him that I was

> > supposed

> > > to stay out until my heart was changed. He just told me not to

> > stay

> > > out long and continued on home.

> > >

> > > My stepmom was my dad's second wife, and I think he firmly

> > committed

> > > himself to her, because starting over again was unthinkable to

> > him. I

> > > got the impression that he was determined to make the best of

it.

> > > Some years after I left home, he made the comment to me that

he

> > had

> > > married someone who was " over-reactive, " but that this was

better

> > > than being with someone who was " under-reactive. " I got the

> > > impression that, at some point, he had to talk himself into

> > believing

> > > that.

> > >

> >

>

> __.._,_.___

> Messages in this topic (24) Reply (via web post) | Start a new

topic

> Messages

> Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @...

SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

>

> To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-

SHELL () for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding

the Borderline Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline

Parent, " (Roth) which you can find at any bookstore. Welcome to the

WTO community!

>

> From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and

author SWOE and the SWOE Workbook.

>

> Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required)

> Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest |

Switch format to Traditional

> Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe

> Recent Activity

> * 27

> New MembersVisit Your Group

> Yahoo! Health

> Memory Loss

> Are you at risk

> for Alzheimers?

> Meditation and

> Lovingkindness

> A Yahoo! Group

> to share and learn.

> Yahoo! Groups

> Find balance

> between nutrition,

> activity & well-being.

> .

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks to ALL of you who answered my questions today. It helps so much to talk

to all of you who grew up in this type of situation. Coming form such a great

childhood, its hard for me to imagine what they must think about it sometimes.

As a summary to some of your comments, I am plannig on all of us going to a T. I

am amazed at how good they seem to do in spite of it all. I think I hear you all

saying dont force the issue. I guess deep down I want them to understand her

illness, without seeming like I am bad mouthing her or belittling her, so that

in the long run with me validating them, and then understanding her, that they

can keep as good of a relationship as possible with her. But I will need to take

the issues more slowly than I seem to want to - and thanks for reminding me of

that.

DKC

Re: Talking to my teens about leaving/mom

I agree with what Abby has to say. I would add that if you say too

much about their mom's illness and such, you risk looking like a

parent who is bad-mouthing the other parent, which doesn't go over

well in court. The most important thing is to stand up for your

kids, be a good role model of what unconditional love really is, and

be there to listen when they need to talk (as well as taking them to

therapy). Hang in there!

> > > > >

> > > > > Yeaaah. But as the parent it is his job to make sure the

all

> of

> > > the

> > > > 90% was justified and not just her popping off at vulnerable

> > kids.

> > > > Was he getting ready for bed or was he ducking? >

> > > > =========

> > > >

> > > > As the " twin sister " in ton2's story, I'd say our dad

was

> > > > ducking. I think he kind of felt sorry for us on one level,

but

> > > > decided we could handle it, and did not dare intervene -

ever.

> I

> > > > think he knew that if he did not allow her to vent her drama

> and

> > > > emotions on us, then it could shift to him.. On one occasion,

my

> > > > stepmom gave me the silent treatment for a prolonged time

> because

> > > a

> > > > small hole was discovered in the silverware tray of the

> > > dishwasher --

> > > > and I had been the last person to load the dishwasher. My dad

> was

> > > > well aware of her silent treatment, and on the third morning

> that

> > > she

> > > > was ignoring me, he tipped me off that I should go tell her I

> was

> > > > sorry. So, I did. It was confounding to me that she turned

it

> > > into

> > > > an emotional scene as if she needed an apology fitting for a

> > > sitution

> > > > of personal betrayal -- rather than it just being a small

hole

> in

> > > the

> > > > silverware tray. The personal offense she had taken and the

> drama

> > > > that resulted were too weird for me to process in any logical

> > way.

> > > >

> > > > In another instance, I was making salad for dinner per

> > > instructions.

> > > > I was deep in thought and probably appeared glum as I

prepared

> > the

> > > > lettuce. Suddenly, she told me to " Get out of here! Go take a

> > walk

> > > > and don't come back until your heart is changed! " Feeling

like

> I

> > > was

> > > > in the Twilight Zone, I headed out the door and started

> walking.

> > > My

> > > > dad happened to drive by on his way home. He stopped and

rolled

> > > down

> > > > his window and ask where I was going. I told him that I was

> > > supposed

> > > > to stay out until my heart was changed. He just told me not

to

> > > stay

> > > > out long and continued on home.

> > > >

> > > > My stepmom was my dad's second wife, and I think he firmly

> > > committed

> > > > himself to her, because starting over again was unthinkable

to

> > > him. I

> > > > got the impression that he was determined to make the best of

> it.

> > > > Some years after I left home, he made the comment to me that

he

> > > had

> > > > married someone who was " over-reactive, " but that this was

> better

> > > > than being with someone who was " under-reactive. " I got the

> > > > impression that, at some point, he had to talk himself into

> > > believing

> > > > that.

> > > >

> > >

> >

> > __.._,_.___

> > Messages in this topic (24) Reply (via web post) | Start a

new

> topic

> > Messages

> > Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @

> SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

> >

> > To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-

> SHELL () for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding

> the Borderline Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline

> Parent, " (Roth) which you can find at any bookstore. Welcome to the

> WTO community!

> >

> > From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and

> author SWOE and the SWOE Workbook.

> >

> > Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required)

> > Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest |

Switch

> format to Traditional

> > Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe

> > Recent Activity

> > * 27

> > New MembersVisit Your Group

> > Yahoo! Health

> > Memory Loss

> > Are you at risk

> > for Alzheimers?

> > Meditation and

> > Lovingkindness

> > A Yahoo! Group

> > to share and learn.

> > Yahoo! Groups

> > Find balance

> > between nutrition,

> > activity & well-being.

> > .

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Kyla,

Your advice is pretty much what I have been thinking. As of now I have no

immediate desire to get into another relationship. My T implies (do they ever

say things outright?) that I should work on getting back to doing things I love,

that because I let her control me I quit doing such as recreation, socilaizing

etc..... Many of the things I want to get back to we could do as a family too.

Thanks for reminding me where my focus should be..

DKC

Re: Talking to my teens about leaving/mom

--

Another quick thought and then I've REALLY got to go to bed!

You might think about not getting into another relationship for

awhile, so that you can keep your focus on your daughters, their

emotional health, and your relationship with them. If a new lady is

on the scene, I think they will feel your attention is fractured,

and they might see it as a rejection.

Make these next few years the ones you devote to your kids' welfare,

until they are strong and sure that they are unconditionally loved

by their dad -- and they go to college or whatever they set out to

do -- then you can turn your attention to your own love life.

Just my two cents' worth. If I had a great dad that I knew I could

turn to after my parents' divorce -- I would be hurt if he was

distracted by a new love. It's a sacrifice for you at the moment,

but I think in the long run, well worth it.

-Kyla

> > > >

> > > > Yeaaah. But as the parent it is his job to make sure the all

of

> > the

> > > 90% was justified and not just her popping off at vulnerable

> kids.

> > > Was he getting ready for bed or was he ducking? >

> > > =========

> > >

> > > As the " twin sister " in ton2's story, I'd say our dad

was

> > > ducking. I think he kind of felt sorry for us on one level,

but

> > > decided we could handle it, and did not dare intervene - ever.

I

> > > think he knew that if he did not allow her to vent her drama

and

> > > emotions on us, then it could shift to him. On one occasion,

my

> > > stepmom gave me the silent treatment for a prolonged time

because

> > a

> > > small hole was discovered in the silverware tray of the

> > dishwasher --

> > > and I had been the last person to load the dishwasher. My dad

was

> > > well aware of her silent treatment, and on the third morning

that

> > she

> > > was ignoring me, he tipped me off that I should go tell her I

was

> > > sorry. So, I did. It was confounding to me that she turned

it

> > into

> > > an emotional scene as if she needed an apology fitting for a

> > sitution

> > > of personal betrayal -- rather than it just being a small hole

in

> > the

> > > silverware tray. The personal offense she had taken and the

drama

> > > that resulted were too weird for me to process in any logical

> way.

> > >

> > > In another instance, I was making salad for dinner per

> > instructions.

> > > I was deep in thought and probably appeared glum as I prepared

> the

> > > lettuce. Suddenly, she told me to " Get out of here! Go take a

> walk

> > > and don't come back until your heart is changed! " Feeling like

I

> > was

> > > in the Twilight Zone, I headed out the door and started

walking.

> > My

> > > dad happened to drive by on his way home. He stopped and

rolled

> > down

> > > his window and ask where I was going. I told him that I was

> > supposed

> > > to stay out until my heart was changed. He just told me not to

> > stay

> > > out long and continued on home.

> > >

> > > My stepmom was my dad's second wife, and I think he firmly

> > committed

> > > himself to her, because starting over again was unthinkable to

> > him. I

> > > got the impression that he was determined to make the best of

it.

> > > Some years after I left home, he made the comment to me that

he

> > had

> > > married someone who was " over-reactive, " but that this was

better

> > > than being with someone who was " under-reactive. " I got the

> > > impression that, at some point, he had to talk himself into

> > believing

> > > that.

> > >

> >

>

> __.._,_.___

> Messages in this topic (24) Reply (via web post) | Start a new

topic

> Messages

> Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @...

SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

>

> To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-

SHELL () for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding

the Borderline Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline

Parent, " (Roth) which you can find at any bookstore. Welcome to the

WTO community!

>

> From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and

author SWOE and the SWOE Workbook.

>

> Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required)

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Switch format to Traditional

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[Guest guest]

Dear ,

You are being a true and wonderful father for taking your kids out of

what may be a confusing environment. While, at first, it will be hard,

and of course you are dealing with teenagers too, you are providing a

good, strong role model that will be there for your children. It took

me several years (and bad experiences) to get the right counseling to

NOT recreate my home environment by seeking out toxic boyfriends,

working for manipulative people, and well, it was bad. Yeah for you!

You are my hero! It sounds like you have a strong community and I wish

you the best of luck.

It's late at night for me, but I would write more. I wish you luck

with the next few months.

~lulu

[Guest guest]

I dont mind you being blunt, I am the one who asked for opinions

I have told them because I want them to be prepared for the changes to come. I

plan of sharing custody until we can get things settled. My wife and I have had

the discusion in more of a " fight " ' format where I have told her " if you refuse

to go to counsoling with me, I refuse to stay in this marriage " to which she

says " I wish you would just stop talking about it and leave then " . The last

couple of times we discussed it I told her I was working on getting things

figured out to go, to which she had no comment. So I do feel that i have let her

know. I tried to let the kids know that this was MY decision and I hoped that

they would chose to spend at least some of thier time with me - to which they

pretty much asked " how much can we " .

As far as the 60-40 arrangement, I dont feel that it is BS. When I talked to my

lawyer, he said it would be very hard to get full custody with only emotional

abuse. The 60-40 seemed reasonalble to try for, and one of the benefits is that

it put them with me for 2 weekends in a row everyother time they would be with

me. Another way to look at it is that they would have 50% more time with me than

her, giving them a significant amount of additional time with the more stable

parent. I also worry that if I tried for full custody it would send my wife

completey over the edge (she is high functioning now and they do have some good

times together on occasion. Where with 60-40 she wouldnt feel as abandond maybe?

Although our opinion differ on that, I DO appreciate seeing your thoughts too.

Thanks,

DKC

Re: Talking to my teens about leaving/mom

A couple of things come to mind. I'm going to be blunt, but these 2

issues are at the heart of the difficulties I still have in the

relationship with my father who left my BP mother when I was 15, and

you did ask!

You say you have told your kids that you are leaving in the near

future. Have you told your wife you are leaving? Because, if not,

you have unwittingly placed them in a role where they are being

forced to keep a secret from their mother. That's not right or fair

to them. I can understand not wanting to completely blindside them,

but basically divorce is an adult decision that kids are informed of

once the logistics have been worked out. Taking them into your

confidence " adultifies " them & communicates they have some

responsibility in the decision. Since you've already done this, you

might want to explore with a therapist how to un-do the damage &

miniminze the impact on them, as well as have them go to a therapist

individually during this transition. In my childhood specifically,

dad told me in October he was leaving BP mom, which he didn't do

until May. I pretty much fell apart under the strain of knowing his

secret and keeping it from her even as SHE fell apart, knowing

something was up but unable to deal with it appropriately as she

grappled with her own abandonment issues.

Second thing: 60/40 is baloney.. If your wife is bad enough to

leave, she's bad enough to get them out of there on a fulltime

basis. She will take out your " abandonment " on them, pick them

apart for any traits that resemble yours, etc. My dad preferred the

illusion that somehow mom would get her act together once he left,

that " children belong with their mothers " etc., but the reality is,

he just wanted out & didn't want the baggage & responsibility of the

children he helped bring into this world; or the conflict with her

over us. The message was: we weren't worth his trouble, and he

ultimately protected himself and not us by leaving. I would suggest

evaluating, once again, with a therapist, your motives in leaving

them there, and the wisdom of doing so. I myself fought my own BP

ex for custody of my daughter for over 9 years. So from this angle,

and having been on both sides of it, it looks like a cop-out. You

don't leave your kids with someone crazy. Period.

[Guest guest]

Absolutely! Give it some time and find out who you are now. I'm

sure you've got some healing to do.

I just went to my niece's wedding last night. I always get choked

up at the point where the dad hands over the daughter to the groom.

Picture that and enjoy this time of " exclusivity " with your

children. Once they're grown and making households of their own,

you'll take a step back and the relationship will change.

Good for you -- you're going to be fine. I wish you the best.

-Kyla

> > > > >

> > > > > Yeaaah. But as the parent it is his job to make sure the

all

> of

> > > the

> > > > 90% was justified and not just her popping off at vulnerable

> > kids.

> > > > Was he getting ready for bed or was he ducking? >

> > > > =========

> > > >

> > > > As the " twin sister " in ton2's story, I'd say our dad

> was

> > > > ducking. I think he kind of felt sorry for us on one level,

> but

> > > > decided we could handle it, and did not dare intervene -

ever.

> I

> > > > think he knew that if he did not allow her to vent her drama

> and

> > > > emotions on us, then it could shift to him. On one occasion,

> my

> > > > stepmom gave me the silent treatment for a prolonged time

> because

> > > a

> > > > small hole was discovered in the silverware tray of the

> > > dishwasher --

> > > > and I had been the last person to load the dishwasher. My

dad

> was

> > > > well aware of her silent treatment, and on the third morning

> that

> > > she

> > > > was ignoring me, he tipped me off that I should go tell her

I

> was

> > > > sorry. So, I did. It was confounding to me that she turned

> it

> > > into

> > > > an emotional scene as if she needed an apology fitting for a

> > > sitution

> > > > of personal betrayal -- rather than it just being a small

hole

> in

> > > the

> > > > silverware tray. The personal offense she had taken and the

> drama

> > > > that resulted were too weird for me to process in any

logical

> > way.

> > > >

> > > > In another instance, I was making salad for dinner per

> > > instructions.

> > > > I was deep in thought and probably appeared glum as I

prepared

> > the

> > > > lettuce. Suddenly, she told me to " Get out of here! Go take

a

> > walk

> > > > and don't come back until your heart is changed! " Feeling

like

> I

> > > was

> > > > in the Twilight Zone, I headed out the door and started

> walking.

> > > My

> > > > dad happened to drive by on his way home. He stopped and

> rolled

> > > down

> > > > his window and ask where I was going. I told him that I was

> > > supposed

> > > > to stay out until my heart was changed. He just told me not

to

> > > stay

> > > > out long and continued on home.

> > > >

> > > > My stepmom was my dad's second wife, and I think he firmly

> > > committed

> > > > himself to her, because starting over again was unthinkable

to

> > > him. I

> > > > got the impression that he was determined to make the best

of

> it.

> > > > Some years after I left home, he made the comment to me that

> he

> > > had

> > > > married someone who was " over-reactive, " but that this was

> better

> > > > than being with someone who was " under-reactive. " I got the

> > > > impression that, at some point, he had to talk himself into

> > > believing

> > > > that.

> > > >

> > >

> >

> > __.._,_.___

> > Messages in this topic (24) Reply (via web post) | Start a

new

> topic

> > Messages

> > Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @

> SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

> >

> > To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-

> SHELL () for your copy. We also refer

to " Understanding

> the Borderline Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline

> Parent, " (Roth) which you can find at any bookstore. Welcome to

the

> WTO community!

> >

> > From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and

> author SWOE and the SWOE Workbook.

> >

> > Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required)

> > Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest |

> Switch format to Traditional

> > Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe

> > Recent Activity

> > * 27

> > New MembersVisit Your Group

> > Yahoo! Health

> > Memory Loss

> > Are you at risk

> > for Alzheimers?

> > Meditation and

> > Lovingkindness

> > A Yahoo! Group

> > to share and learn.

> > Yahoo! Groups

> > Find balance

> > between nutrition,

> > activity & well-being.

> > .

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Hey , Sounds like you need to talk about your wifes BPD. Is there

someone you can talk to about it? You can of course talk to us. I'm thinking

if you have an outlet, it will be easier for you to let your kids set the

pace concerning mom discussions.

Just a thought, girlscout

>

> Hey ,

> Wow, thank you for all that you are doing. I really admire you for standing

> up to your wife and taking care of your kids.

>

> Interesting questions, I'd never thought of how much to talk about the

> issues with your kids, but I wouldn't talk too much about mom's sickness

> during the process of the divorce. The kids are going to be more interested

> in and concerned about immediate issues. You say more with your actions than

> with your words. So, if - errr when - their mother does something

> outlandish, if you have their back, then that says it all. Another thing

> that I believe really helps kids, esp that age, is to have an adult friend

> who is supportive. I relyed a LOT on my teachers and my dad's friends for

> support and positive reinforcement. I took guitar and music lessons and that

> really helped me find a " sane " place and I also took sewing and other art

> classes. Having sane adults in my life outside the family gave me some of

> what I needed.

>

> That said, I also wouldn't hide anything or keep any secrets. Your kids are

> old enough to understand, I understood that my mother was seriously mentally

> ill by kindergarten because she told me and told me often! So I know your

> kids will " get it. " There are a lot of fiction books with similar story

> lines, and I spent a lot of time alone and reading as a kid. That could help

> them understand too. Now that I'm grown, I teach kids part time and I spend

> a lot of time researching this kind of stuff so let me know if you want book

> recomends for your kids. I would honestly answer any questions that they

> have, and give them books that are age-appropriate that will make them feel

> less alone. I wouldn't chase them down with the info though, because

> honestly, their lives are so much more important than their Nadas and they

> have so many more immediate concerns.

>

> When you have moved and the kids are settled in, let your kids make the

> choice of whether or not to talk about mom's sickness. Bring it up casually

> and gently, and if they are interested, discuss it. If not, let it drop and

> talk about soccer practice instead. I bet each of your kids will have a

> totally different perspective. I am from a family of 2 and my brother, the

> golden child, had a very different life than I did as the black child. I

> knew a lot, in fact, way way way too much graphic detail about my mother's

> health when I was a kid. I think you will be surprised by how mature they

> will probably be.

>

> I admire you and thank you for leaving. That action alone makes a huge huge

> statement and will teach your daughters that LEAVING is an option. Through

> your example, you can prevent them from ending up in an abusive relationship

> in the future.

>

> My dad was the most important person in my life and my best friend when I

> was a child, but he made so so so many mistakes. Staying and enabling were

> the top. Thanks for being a great dad, the world needs more men like you.

>

> Hugs to you and especially to your kids! girlscout

>

>

>

>>

>> Hello All - Kyla & Girlscout in particular,

>>

>> Below is exactly the kind of father I am trying not to be. I always take

>> my kids (14 & 17) side when they are right, AND my wife side when she is

>> right -which seems to be less and less. I cant fathom kissing my wifes ass

>> at the emotional expense of my kids.

>>

>> Im not sure if I have updated this list of my happenings lately. I have

>> told both kids that I am planning on leaving in the near future, along with

>> my parents and a few close friends. Everyone has been supportive.. I

>> recently got in touch with my old Pastor who recently got his PhD in " family

>> therapy " or somehting simlilar. He is VERY familiar with BPD. As I went over

>> things with him he didnt seem hopeful (she refuses therapy), but was very

>> validating and supportive too.

>>

>> Both kids have indicated that they would like to stay with me more than

>> mom. I am thinking of trying for a " 60-40 " arrangement I have read up on and

>> seems reachable.

>>

>> My question is this: the kids dont ask alot about " moms illness " even

>> though we have talked about it in the past in general terms.They have more

>> specific questoins about living conditions and things like that. I would

>> like to tell them more things like " when she does X, this is how she

>> probably sees things, which is different from how most people do " , so that

>> they can better understand things. I dont know if it is a good thing to

>> " lead " a conversation or wait for them to want to talk about things. My T

>> says this is because my whole life I have always wanted to be the " good guy "

>> and please everyone, and am worried too much about what the kids think of

>> me. (he knows I am a thoughful considerate guy and am not going to trash

>> talk her type of thing).

>>

>> So whats all of your input being grown kids of BPD's, do yu wish you had

>> more info right away, or absorb it slowly?

>>

>> Thanks,

>>

>> DKC

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> I see that you could identify with having a passive father when it

>> came to a failure to protect you. I had not focused in before on the

>> apologizing aspect, but, yes, my gosh! It's utterly sick to tell

>> one's innocent child to go apologize (to the very person who should

>> be apologizing to them)!

>>

>> It's a crime that you were cheated out of what could have been one of

>> the most joyous moments of your life!! Announcing your engagement at

>> Thanksgiving with your grandparents there COULD have made such a

>> beautiful memory!! Instead of sharing a time of family bonding,

>> making your fiance feel welcomed to the family, and rightfully

>> celebrating the occasion... it sounded like such a deflating

>> experience to sit there, holding it all in -- being told to act in

>> denial of something exciting and precious... all to appease

>> the " angry god. " What twisted " white-collar " evil!

>>

>> You hit the nail on the head in describing our fathers -- using us so

>> they are not inconvenienced and do not have to face reality.

>>

>> Thank you for opening my eyes to more of what was going on, while

>> lending your support, and helping to further the healing process.

>>

>> I am wishing you all the best on this journey -- and sending a hug in

>> return!

>>

>> Everwaiteing

>>

>>

>> > > >

>> > > > Yeaaah. But as the parent it is his job to make sure the all of

>> > the

>> > > 90% was justified and not just her popping off at vulnerable

>> kids.

>> > > Was he getting ready for bed or was he ducking? >

>> > > =========

>> > >

>> > > As the " twin sister " in ton2's story, I'd say our dad was

>> > > ducking. I think he kind of felt sorry for us on one level, but

>> > > decided we could handle it, and did not dare intervene - ever. I

>> > > think he knew that if he did not allow her to vent her drama and

>> > > emotions on us, then it could shift to him. On one occasion, my

>> > > stepmom gave me the silent treatment for a prolonged time because

>> > a

>> > > small hole was discovered in the silverware tray of the

>> > dishwasher --

>> > > and I had been the last person to load the dishwasher. My dad was

>> > > well aware of her silent treatment, and on the third morning that

>> > she

>> > > was ignoring me, he tipped me off that I should go tell her I was

>> > > sorry. So, I did. It was confounding to me that she turned it

>> > into

>> > > an emotional scene as if she needed an apology fitting for a

>> > sitution

>> > > of personal betrayal -- rather than it just being a small hole in

>> > the

>> > > silverware tray. The personal offense she had taken and the drama

>> > > that resulted were too weird for me to process in any logical

>> way.

>> > >

>> > > In another instance, I was making salad for dinner per

>> > instructions.

>> > > I was deep in thought and probably appeared glum as I prepared

>> the

>> > > lettuce. Suddenly, she told me to " Get out of here! Go take a

>> walk

>> > > and don't come back until your heart is changed! " Feeling like I

>> > was

>> > > in the Twilight Zone, I headed out the door and started walking.

>> > My

>> > > dad happened to drive by on his way home. He stopped and rolled

>> > down

>> > > his window and ask where I was going. I told him that I was

>> > supposed

>> > > to stay out until my heart was changed. He just told me not to

>> > stay

>> > > out long and continued on home.

>> > >

>> > > My stepmom was my dad's second wife, and I think he firmly

>> > committed

>> > > himself to her, because starting over again was unthinkable to

>> > him. I

>> > > got the impression that he was determined to make the best of it.

>> > > Some years after I left home, he made the comment to me that he

>> > had

>> > > married someone who was " over-reactive, " but that this was better

>> > > than being with someone who was " under-reactive. " I got the

>> > > impression that, at some point, he had to talk himself into

>> > believing

>> > > that.

>> > >

>> >

>>

>> __.._,_.___

>> Messages in this topic (24) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic

>> Messages

>> Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at

>> @.... SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond

>> ON THE GROUP.

>>

>> To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

>> () for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

>> Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

>> find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

>>

>> From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE

>> and the SWOE Workbook.

>>

>> Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required)

>> Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch format

>> to Traditional

>> Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe

>> Recent Activity

>> * 27

>> New MembersVisit Your Group

>> Yahoo! Health

>> Memory Loss

>> Are you at risk

>> for Alzheimers?

>> Meditation and

>> Lovingkindness

>> A Yahoo! Group

>> to share and learn.

>> Yahoo! Groups

>> Find balance

>> between nutrition,

>> activity & well-being.

>> .

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>