Re: richard's first nada story

[Guest guest]

--

That is indeed, disturbing. And your mother was mentally ill. I'm

glad you took the steps to save yourself. It gives everyone hope.

-Kyla

>

> Warning: long post. Although the following contains

> no 'explicit graphic' language, some of you will find

> it very disturbing to read. If so, you can just scroll

> down to the next post. My mother passed on over twenty

> years ago. I have had great therapists. One psychiatrist

> spontaneously burst into tears when I told her about my

> nada. I have worked through these events many times in

> my adult life. I wanted to hear myself tell this story

> to 1900 people, in the hopes that it might be helpful to

> someone else out there in Oz. She was never officially

> diagnosed, so you can think about that if you like ...

>

> I believe I was 6 years old, circa 1960. The rowhouse

> next door shared a small porch with ours, the two front

> doors were barely an arm's length away from one another.

> In our house, nada was burning mad. The little friend

> of mine who lived next door, and who was the same age

> as me, was driving her crazy ...

>

> Nada: , I am very upset. That bad little boy

> next door has been poking his fingers at my screen door!

> Why does he HAVE TO DO THAT? I want you to go over

> there RIGHT NOW AND POKE YOUR FINGERS AT THEIR SCREEN

> DOOR. GO ON -- YOU GO OVER THERE! ...

>

> As you can guess, I had no idea what nada was talking

> about, and I had no idea what it meant to go poke

> fingers at a screen door. She demanded that I go ...

>

> The neighbors had a simple, aluminum screen door,

> what they used to call a 'storm door'. The inside

> door was open, as it was summer. Across the screen

> was a bent metal decorative grating. I tried to do

> what my nada wanted me to do. I put my hands on the

> curved metal, and scratched at the screening that

> was covered by the metal. My friend's mother, the

> neighbor lady, came to the door (of course). She

> was looking at me through the aluminum screen ...

>

> Lady: , what are you doing there?

>

> , nervously: I-I'm poking at the screen

> door.

>

> Lady: , why are you doing that?

>

> : Be-be-cause, my mommy said to ...

>

> Back in the house, nada was extremely hurt and

> angry at me. How could I have betrayed her like

> that in front of the neighbors? Didn't I know

> any better? How could I have been so bad --

> she was absolutely devastated ...

>

> During my childhood, my nada would sometimes

> tell me to do something in public -- AND DON'T

> SAY 'MY MOMMY SAYS' !!! I was supposed to do

> what she says, but it was supposed to be ME

> doing it -- NOT HER. I don't recall if my fada

> ever understood what this phrase was all about ...

>

> Flash forward to 1984 (perfect timing, huh)?

> My mother has been bed-ridden for months in a

> city hospital. She's 69 years old and has been

> wasting away from inoperative stomach cancer.

> She never mentions that she is dying, and neither

> do we. She claims that she has a hiatal hernia

> and that she will be getting out soon. On her

> deathbed, she reiterates to me how disappointed

> in me she had been, after I had betrayed her

> in front of the neighbor lady. I never should

> have said to the lady, MY MOMMY SAYS! That

> had been troubling her for over 20 years ...

>

> Nada passed away on the night before my 30th

> birthday. Soon after that, I started reading

> the DSM and other medical literature, and I

> determined, unofficially, that she had been

> afflicted with Borderline Personality Disorder.

> No other family or friends helped me with the

> diagnosis. I found myself an extraordinary

> ACoA meeting, and a great therapist. Today I

> have a wonderful, beautiful girlfriend, much

> serenity and joy in my life. I hope that I

> can help, on occasion, other adult children in

> recovery from BPD families -- out there in Oz.

> Thanks for listening. Peace and love to all ...

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> --

>

> That is indeed, disturbing. And your mother was mentally ill. I'm

> glad you took the steps to save yourself. It gives everyone hope.

>

> -Kyla

Thank you Kyla and for your kind words.

You don't know what it's like to hear someone say:

your mother was mentally ill ...

I know -- of course you know!

For my entire childhood the family screamed constantly

about how bad a kid I was and all the problems I caused

in our home. Except they missed the most obvious

family problem of all: mom was a wack job. Nobody

ever seemed to talk about that little item.

I know I keep asking really complicated questions

here, and I'll try to shut up soon, but there's another

one about family members (KO-sibs) who have internalized

their nada's warped world-view. I'll bring this up

sometime later on, but it's so mystifying. Hope

everyone's seen the movie Gaslight w/ Ingrid Bergman!

[Guest guest]

Hey --

The other day, my therapist of 15 years (off and on) said " She's

CRAZY! " and I couldn't believe what I was hearing. Even though this

therapist is fantastic, and even though I LIVED it, my mind STILL

won't wrap around that she's " CRAZY " . SHe's also said flat out --

when I said about my dad " But he's a good dad " she challenged that,

too: " No, he's NOT a good dad -- why do you keep defending him? "

Again, it took awhile for that truth to sink in.

But, when you think about it -- they really are disturbed people.

But, to us, this was normal! We did what we had to do to survive.

I imagine you even blamed yourself, especially since a chorus of

people was too willing to tell you it was your fault. I'm finding

that in this book " Leaving Home " that is so fascinating. A kid will

blame himself (even with NO help from an angry chorus!), to keep the

parent blameless, because the parent is his only anchor in a scary

world.

It stands to reason, that when we grow up and hopefully look to

figure ourselves out, that we get ANGRY when we realize what they

put over on us!

Oh, and I use the term " gaslight " all the time, but have never

actually sat down to watch the movie. I might need to do that.

Another one I like is " Ordinary People " , not only does Tyler

act like my mom, she LOOKS like her!

-Kyla

[Guest guest]

Kyla,

My therapist does the same thing. The only difference is that my dad died when

I was 13

so I don't know if he would have become a dishrag or not. He was an amazing man

but I

am not sure how he would have handled her in her " bad times " Although I think

it is all

circular, she got bad when he died so who knows.

By the way I never new why I loved Ordinary People when I saw it my junior year

of HS. I

think I need to rent it again!

>

> Hey --

>

> The other day, my therapist of 15 years (off and on) said " She's

> CRAZY! " and I couldn't believe what I was hearing. Even though this

> therapist is fantastic, and even though I LIVED it, my mind STILL

> won't wrap around that she's " CRAZY " . SHe's also said flat out --

> when I said about my dad " But he's a good dad " she challenged that,

> too: " No, he's NOT a good dad -- why do you keep defending him? "

> Again, it took awhile for that truth to sink in.

>

> But, when you think about it -- they really are disturbed people.

> But, to us, this was normal! We did what we had to do to survive.

> I imagine you even blamed yourself, especially since a chorus of

> people was too willing to tell you it was your fault. I'm finding

> that in this book " Leaving Home " that is so fascinating. A kid will

> blame himself (even with NO help from an angry chorus!), to keep the

> parent blameless, because the parent is his only anchor in a scary

> world.

>

> It stands to reason, that when we grow up and hopefully look to

> figure ourselves out, that we get ANGRY when we realize what they

> put over on us!

>

> Oh, and I use the term " gaslight " all the time, but have never

> actually sat down to watch the movie. I might need to do that.

> Another one I like is " Ordinary People " , not only does Tyler

> act like my mom, she LOOKS like her!

>

> -Kyla

>

[Guest guest]

--- In WTOAdultChildren1 , " richard_f00 "

>

> I know I keep asking really complicated questions

> here, and I'll try to shut up soon,

No need to shut up ever, . This here's the KO lounge... pull up

a chair, grab a drink, and stay a while. You can ask as many simple or

complicated questions as you want .

> but there's another

> one about family members (KO-sibs) who have internalized

> their nada's warped world-view. I'll bring this up

> sometime later on, but it's so mystifying.

Yep, I've got one of those. Apparently, he's decided that his

daughter's recently diagnosed health problem is my fault. Guess whom

I'm no longer talking to?

We used to be friends, my younger brother and I. Allies, even. To some

extent, I helped to raise him. But he's bought our nada's bill of

goods and married a BPD of his own. That's it... the brother I knew is

gone. He lives under the thumb of his wife, and to a lesser extent,

his mother. So he's just a cog in the dysfunctional machine that

paints me as the bad daughter/sister. He can't/won't take

responsibility for himself or confront his wife, so he does what he's

been trained to do--blame me. Great. He can blame me as much as he

likes far away from me. I won't be calling him any time soon and will

be very wary of accepting any phone calls from him.

> Hope

> everyone's seen the movie Gaslight w/ Ingrid Bergman!

Hmm... I haven't. Is it related? I'll put it in my Netflix queue.

qwerty

[Guest guest]

:

> > but there's another

> > one about family members (KO-sibs) who have internalized

> > their nada's warped world-view. I'll bring this up

> > sometime later on, but it's so mystifying.

Qwerty:

> Yep, I've got one of those. Apparently, he's decided that his

> daughter's recently diagnosed health problem is my fault. Guess

> whom I'm no longer talking to?

>

> We used to be friends, my younger brother and I. Allies, even. To

> some extent, I helped to raise him. But he's bought our nada's bill

> of goods and married a BPD of his own. That's it... the brother I

> knew is gone ...

Thanks for the nice reply Qwerty -

And as says, sorry you qualify. Presuming here

that you and I both have a younger brother who is fully

adult and not BPD, and yet, they've absorbed the

world-according-to-nada. I call this The Fiction.

This really is the welcome-to-Oz stuff for me. Why

doesn't bro get it? What could be in it for him, to

hold onto things that are clearly and obviously not

real? It's a mystery ...

Couple other comments. In the Hollywood classic

Gaslight (1944) Boyer mentally manipulates

his wife, played by Ingrid Bergman. The triangle

is completed with good-guy ph Cotton as the

rescuer. Technically, the psychopathic Boyer is

not BPD, but his techniques of mind control will

ring true enough to anyone in this group! The

brilliant script introduced the term 'gaslighting'

someone into common English usage. A must-see ...

http://www.netflix.com/Movie/Gaslight/60010385

Also, I've changed my yahoo handle a couple

of times. I'll try to stick with richard_ak0 --

standing for something like, Adult Kid of ...

[Guest guest]

>

> This really is the welcome-to-Oz stuff for me. Why

> doesn't bro get it? What could be in it for him, to

> hold onto things that are clearly and obviously not

> real? It's a mystery ...

Thanks for your reply as well, .

In the case of my younger brother, I think he's too lazy to " get it. "

He married a woman from a very wealthy family, so they've got a condo

and car paid for by her parents. He's studying at uni on their dime,

and working in drips and drabs when he feels like it to make a little

money for food and bills. So it's all very convenient for him.

My younger brother was generally split good. Children who are split

good are taught to blame others for their problems or mistakes. They

are taught to be dependent on their nadas/fadas--after all, nada and

fada are the ones who think they're great even when they've done

something that isn't so great. As you can imagine, this is more often

a handicap than anything else. How can children learn to be

responsible for their actions if they're never held accountable?

Worse, how can they learn from their own mistakes if they never make

any? How can they develop an independent sense of self if they are

coddled and protected from the world?

There are some people who are able to recognize and work through this

handicap. (We recently did a poll here on the list about whether

members were split bad or good.) Some people cannot or do not. It's

comforting to think that you can do no wrong, that you're the

smartest, that you're the best and that your parents love you. It's

much more difficult to accept that you can make mistakes, you are not

the smartest person out there, and that your parents only love the

image of you they've built over the years. That is a hard and painful

realization to make, and a difficult process to unlearn all those

damaging lessons.

Naturally, my younger brother has never been to therapy, although he

did see an acupuncturist for a while as a child. Apparently the

acupuncturist provided counseling in addition to medical acupuncture.

Until my nada decided to split the acupuncturist bad and that was the

end of that.

But I digress. The point is, my younger brother is pretty comfortable

in this system, although I can hear the anxiety in his voice when his

wife is around. But to him, that anxiety and his wife's craziness are

normal. He appears to be unaware that relationships can be better,

that not all women are like that. This is a pattern I have seen

repeated to an equal or lesser extent among my half-siblings.

It's really hard to examine who you are, and essentially pick yourself

apart and put yourself back together. Sometimes I wish I had been born

into a better family so that this process wouldn't be so difficult, so

that the negative perceptions of myself wouldn't be so ingrained. But

that's the hand I was dealt, and I'd rather be dead than be like my

nada. So I've chosen to go to therapy and work this out at a very

fundamental level. A lot of people aren't prepared to do that, and I

don't blame them. It sucks .

qwerty

[Guest guest]

QZ,

What you said is amazingly similar to my sister's story.......

Children who are split

good are taught to blame others for their problems or mistakes. They

are taught to be dependent on their nadas/fadas--after all, nada and

fada are the ones who think they're great even when they've done

something that isn't so great. As you can imagine, this is more often

a handicap than anything else. How can children learn to be

responsible for their actions if they're never held accountable?

Worse, how can they learn from their own mistakes if they never make

any? How can they develop an independent sense of self if they are

coddled and protected from the world?

.........my sister has never been held accountable for her actions.

She has been given things, cars, money, bailed out of financial

responsibilities, lived with nada on and off since childhood, mostly

on. Lived 3 or 4 times away from nada......3 times only blocks

away, once in Cali (which she called nada everyday and nada visited

like 3 times in 9 months). She was home within a year only to move

her and her daughter back in with nada. She is currently living

within a stones throw. Can see each others driveway, cars, etc.

My sister won't ever be fully available to me and see nada's faults

as long as she is using nada as a crutch. Its just so twisted how

they are enmeshed. Sick really.

I am just so pissed that nada can't see sisters badness and yet

won't see my goodness. I know NOW nada thinks that by seeing me

good it is seeing sister bad.....or that it is taking away from

sister some how. Why can't nada be kind to us both........why is it

all or nothing??? I have seen her lavish sister with compassion and

love.....but then she takes from me and expects me to compensate in

other areas. I am supposed to be all responsible, all giving, while

she just takes, takes, takes. Its like nada takes from me and gives

to sister.....does this make an sence???

Rambling......drlingirl

> >

> > This really is the welcome-to-Oz stuff for me. Why

> > doesn't bro get it? What could be in it for him, to

> > hold onto things that are clearly and obviously not

> > real? It's a mystery ...

>

> Thanks for your reply as well, .

>

> In the case of my younger brother, I think he's too lazy to " get

it. "

> He married a woman from a very wealthy family, so they've got a

condo

> and car paid for by her parents. He's studying at uni on their

dime,

> and working in drips and drabs when he feels like it to make a

little

> money for food and bills. So it's all very convenient for him.

>

> My younger brother was generally split good. Children who are split

> good are taught to blame others for their problems or mistakes.

They

> are taught to be dependent on their nadas/fadas--after all, nada

and

> fada are the ones who think they're great even when they've done

> something that isn't so great. As you can imagine, this is more

often

> a handicap than anything else. How can children learn to be

> responsible for their actions if they're never held accountable?

> Worse, how can they learn from their own mistakes if they never

make

> any? How can they develop an independent sense of self if they are

> coddled and protected from the world?

>

> There are some people who are able to recognize and work through

this

> handicap. (We recently did a poll here on the list about whether

> members were split bad or good.) Some people cannot or do not. It's

> comforting to think that you can do no wrong, that you're the

> smartest, that you're the best and that your parents love you. It's

> much more difficult to accept that you can make mistakes, you are

not

> the smartest person out there, and that your parents only love the

> image of you they've built over the years. That is a hard and

painful

> realization to make, and a difficult process to unlearn all those

> damaging lessons.

>

> Naturally, my younger brother has never been to therapy, although

he

> did see an acupuncturist for a while as a child. Apparently the

> acupuncturist provided counseling in addition to medical

acupuncture.

> Until my nada decided to split the acupuncturist bad and that was

the

> end of that.

>

> But I digress. The point is, my younger brother is pretty

comfortable

> in this system, although I can hear the anxiety in his voice when

his

> wife is around. But to him, that anxiety and his wife's craziness

are

> normal. He appears to be unaware that relationships can be better,

> that not all women are like that. This is a pattern I have seen

> repeated to an equal or lesser extent among my half-siblings.

>

> It's really hard to examine who you are, and essentially pick

yourself

> apart and put yourself back together. Sometimes I wish I had been

born

> into a better family so that this process wouldn't be so

difficult, so

> that the negative perceptions of myself wouldn't be so ingrained.

But

> that's the hand I was dealt, and I'd rather be dead than be like my

> nada. So I've chosen to go to therapy and work this out at a very

> fundamental level. A lot of people aren't prepared to do that, and

I

> don't blame them. It sucks .

>

> qwerty

>

[Guest guest]

i have a question for you guys. i have this habit of being hyper-

objective about people. i can list the good things about a person

and in the same breath i can honestly assess their failures as

humans, and not really be too judgmental about it. the only time it

is a problem is when someone assumes i'm being judgmental and i have

to explain to them that i'm just calling it like i see it. i never

really thought about it, but maybe this is a reaction to my mom's

splitting tendencies. does anyone else do this, too?

also, gaslight is freaking awesome and definitely related to this

group.

>

> --- In WTOAdultChildren1 , " richard_f00 "

> >

> > I know I keep asking really complicated questions

> > here, and I'll try to shut up soon,

>

> No need to shut up ever, . This here's the KO lounge... pull

up

> a chair, grab a drink, and stay a while. You can ask as many simple

or

> complicated questions as you want .

>

> > but there's another

> > one about family members (KO-sibs) who have internalized

> > their nada's warped world-view. I'll bring this up

> > sometime later on, but it's so mystifying.

>

> Yep, I've got one of those. Apparently, he's decided that his

> daughter's recently diagnosed health problem is my fault. Guess whom

> I'm no longer talking to?

>

> We used to be friends, my younger brother and I. Allies, even. To

some

> extent, I helped to raise him. But he's bought our nada's bill of

> goods and married a BPD of his own. That's it... the brother I knew

is

> gone. He lives under the thumb of his wife, and to a lesser extent,

> his mother. So he's just a cog in the dysfunctional machine that

> paints me as the bad daughter/sister. He can't/won't take

> responsibility for himself or confront his wife, so he does what

he's

> been trained to do--blame me. Great. He can blame me as much as he

> likes far away from me. I won't be calling him any time soon and

will

> be very wary of accepting any phone calls from him.

>

> > Hope

> > everyone's seen the movie Gaslight w/ Ingrid Bergman!

>

> Hmm... I haven't. Is it related? I'll put it in my Netflix queue.

>

> qwerty

>

[Guest guest]

Blink,

Lets just say I would make a very good cop/detective. Although I

would have to hide cowardly behind my badge....because I could never

call people out on their sh*t!!! I'm learning though ;0)

drlingirl

> >

> > --- In WTOAdultChildren1 , " richard_f00 "

> > >

> > > I know I keep asking really complicated questions

> > > here, and I'll try to shut up soon,

> >

> > No need to shut up ever, . This here's the KO lounge...

pull

> up

> > a chair, grab a drink, and stay a while. You can ask as many

simple

> or

> > complicated questions as you want .

> >

> > > but there's another

> > > one about family members (KO-sibs) who have internalized

> > > their nada's warped world-view. I'll bring this up

> > > sometime later on, but it's so mystifying.

> >

> > Yep, I've got one of those. Apparently, he's decided that his

> > daughter's recently diagnosed health problem is my fault. Guess

whom

> > I'm no longer talking to?

> >

> > We used to be friends, my younger brother and I. Allies, even.

To

> some

> > extent, I helped to raise him. But he's bought our nada's bill of

> > goods and married a BPD of his own. That's it... the brother I

knew

> is

> > gone. He lives under the thumb of his wife, and to a lesser

extent,

> > his mother. So he's just a cog in the dysfunctional machine that

> > paints me as the bad daughter/sister. He can't/won't take

> > responsibility for himself or confront his wife, so he does what

> he's

> > been trained to do--blame me. Great. He can blame me as much as

he

> > likes far away from me. I won't be calling him any time soon and

> will

> > be very wary of accepting any phone calls from him.

> >

> > > Hope

> > > everyone's seen the movie Gaslight w/ Ingrid Bergman!

> >

> > Hmm... I haven't. Is it related? I'll put it in my Netflix queue.

> >

> > qwerty

> >

>

[Guest guest]

i don't usually do this to people's faces! that would be so harsh!

it's more like when i'm talking about people to other people, i give

them the entire low-down on someone. example: i could never

recommend anyone date my friends because i know the good things AND

the bad things about them.

> > >

> > > --- In WTOAdultChildren1 , " richard_f00 "

> > > >

> > > > I know I keep asking really complicated questions

> > > > here, and I'll try to shut up soon,

> > >

> > > No need to shut up ever, . This here's the KO lounge...

> pull

> > up

> > > a chair, grab a drink, and stay a while. You can ask as many

> simple

> > or

> > > complicated questions as you want .

> > >

> > > > but there's another

> > > > one about family members (KO-sibs) who have internalized

> > > > their nada's warped world-view. I'll bring this up

> > > > sometime later on, but it's so mystifying.

> > >

> > > Yep, I've got one of those. Apparently, he's decided that his

> > > daughter's recently diagnosed health problem is my fault. Guess

> whom

> > > I'm no longer talking to?

> > >

> > > We used to be friends, my younger brother and I. Allies, even.

> To

> > some

> > > extent, I helped to raise him. But he's bought our nada's bill

of

> > > goods and married a BPD of his own. That's it... the brother I

> knew

> > is

> > > gone. He lives under the thumb of his wife, and to a lesser

> extent,

> > > his mother. So he's just a cog in the dysfunctional machine that

> > > paints me as the bad daughter/sister. He can't/won't take

> > > responsibility for himself or confront his wife, so he does

what

> > he's

> > > been trained to do--blame me. Great. He can blame me as much as

> he

> > > likes far away from me. I won't be calling him any time soon

and

> > will

> > > be very wary of accepting any phone calls from him.

> > >

> > > > Hope

> > > > everyone's seen the movie Gaslight w/ Ingrid Bergman!

> > >

> > > Hmm... I haven't. Is it related? I'll put it in my Netflix

queue.

> > >

> > > qwerty

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

>

> I am just so pissed that nada can't see sisters badness and yet

> won't see my goodness. I know NOW nada thinks that by seeing me

> good it is seeing sister bad.....or that it is taking away from

> sister some how. Why can't nada be kind to us both........why is it

> all or nothing??? I have seen her lavish sister with compassion and

> love.....but then she takes from me and expects me to compensate in

> other areas. I am supposed to be all responsible, all giving, while

> she just takes, takes, takes. Its like nada takes from me and gives

> to sister.....does this make an sence???

It makes a lot of sense. Think of your nada as a 3 year old. Three

year olds can hate you one minute, and love you the next. There is no

rhyme or reason--only their feelings. In a three year old, this is

amusing behavior. In an adult with considerable power over the lives

of others, this is brutal, cruel, and scary.

The only thing to do about it is to build a new you outside the realm

of nada's twisted black and white mentality.

qwerty

[Guest guest]

Thanks Qz,

I struggle with these feelings and it doesn't help that nada has

calls me " selfish " , " too sensitive " and that I " overthink things " .

I wear this around like a hat sometimes......when I damn well know

what is right and wrong, what is selfish and what is not. I need to

take this hat off and stomp on it.

She IS just like a selfish 3 year old. " I want, I need, give me,

give me " . She isn't a giver, and I guess when I see her give to

sister......its a killer!!! It hurts!!!

Thanks again, drlingirl

> >

> > I am just so pissed that nada can't see sisters badness and yet

> > won't see my goodness. I know NOW nada thinks that by seeing me

> > good it is seeing sister bad.....or that it is taking away from

> > sister some how. Why can't nada be kind to us both........why

is it

> > all or nothing??? I have seen her lavish sister with compassion

and

> > love.....but then she takes from me and expects me to compensate

in

> > other areas. I am supposed to be all responsible, all giving,

while

> > she just takes, takes, takes. Its like nada takes from me and

gives

> > to sister.....does this make an sence???

>

> It makes a lot of sense. Think of your nada as a 3 year old. Three

> year olds can hate you one minute, and love you the next. There is

no

> rhyme or reason--only their feelings. In a three year old, this is

> amusing behavior. In an adult with considerable power over the

lives

> of others, this is brutal, cruel, and scary.

>

> The only thing to do about it is to build a new you outside the

realm

> of nada's twisted black and white mentality.

>

> qwerty

>