Re: QUestion about borderline and abandonment

[Guest guest]

Though it may seem counterproductive, one can avoid abandonment by

abandoning YOU FIRST. This IS fear of abandonment, played out by

beating you to the punch.

> > >> > > So, I think I know what I feel the answer is, but the

whole > thing > > > troubles me, and I'd be greatful for any different

> perspectives...> > > > > > Before that, though, I just also want to

say that reading other > > > peoples experiences has made me realise

that in many ways I had > it > > > easy... there was never any

physical abuse... there were times > whan > > > my mother was

supportive, and I've had to be physically seperate > > > from my

mother for most of my adult life - so besides making > > > excuses,

perspective has been easier, so in saying anything I > don't > > >

want to belittle or invalidate anyone else's experience.> > > > > >

So... to get to the point..> > > > > > Having started to deal with my

mother rather than continue the > same > > > old pattern .... one of

the most uncomfortable features is that > I > > > have to sift through

memories of my life, and see them from a > new > > > perspective.> > >

> > > This helps to understand some really troubling memories (such as

> my > > > mother threatening to leave my Dad when I was 12, then

agreeing > to > > > stay, but only on certain conditions, including

that " me and my > > > brother stop cuddling naked " - of course we

agreed, but silently > I > > > still remember the shock and " but we

don't!! - what are we > doing > > > wrong? we must be doing

*something* wrong??!! " and the shame > that > > > followed - I can

trace the lack of closeness with my brother > now, > > > back to that

point, and of course, that was the intention... > divide > > > and

conquer..)> > > > > > But... where does it end... was everything my

mother ever did > > > motivated by BPD ? - that just doesn't ring

true... there were > > times > > > when it wasn't all bad or all

good..> > > > > > .. I do think my mother's problems go back to

childhood... but I > > > think that we had such a chaotic lifestyle

anyway (not from > BPD.. > > > just that we would move every two

years.. we lived in Africa, > the > > > Far East, back in Scotland...

never stable, but all for good > > > reasons, and there were plenty of

good times and > opportunities... I > > > had a very happy childhood)>

> > > > > ... so the chaos - and that my Father did cheat on her (and

of > > > course, everything I'd taken for fact now needs to be re->

thought) > > > gave her a focus.... she could blame circumstances for

how she > > felt..> > > > > > Then when I was 12, she announced that

they were to be > divorced... > > > and then followed about 15 years

of 'breaking up' - again.. more > > > chaos she could blame..> > > > >

> In amongst that ... her car was stolen at gunpoint in Africa.. > she

> > > blacked out and came to with no car, and footprints on her >

chest.. > > > clearly a traumatic incident - she left Africa (where

the family > > > was) and refused to return, though my Father refused

to try to > find > > > work in Scotland. > > > > > > Essentially from

that point on, she had less and less to > blame... > > > there was

less contact with my Father... eventually complete > > > divorce, then

he died later... and she was left alone, with > nothing > > > to

explain her feelings...> > > > > > My brother lived with her for a

while... but that was a sad tale > of > > > enmeshment (though he has

now escaped, and I've never had a > frank > > > conversation with him

about any of this..)> > > > > > ... so it all gradually started to

shift to me.. Initially I > felt > > > like I was being a supportive

son and giving her a shoulder to > cry > > > on (aged 17), but

eventually started to tell her she needed to > > start > > > thinking

more positively, and forgive the people she constantly > > > raged

about..> > > > > > Of course the rest is obvious; I became more and

more of a > target, > > > and I look like my Father did... now the

examples of her > behaviour > > > ar every bit as extreme as others

posted here.. I'm still > shocked > > at > > > the similarities, the

strategies used, the lack of logic...> > > > > > > > > I guess my

point is... before all of that, can I still feel like > my > > >

Mother was pretty much a normal person (she was always a high > > >

functioning person) who built up coping mechanisms to deal with > her

> > > bitterness which 'blossomed' into BPD - > > > > > > Or was she

always this way, but that it was mainly hidden till > the > > > last

fifteen years or so..?> > > > > > Can I believe that she was capable

of Love, or do I essentially > > need > > > to reconcile myself with

the idea that she never loved me > because > > > she never could. ?> >

> > > > I know many of the people here feel that their nadas never

loved > > > them... but I don't have those definite memories of

neglect or > > > rejection... in many ways I think my mother fought

hard against > the > > > same tendencies I feel now... but somewhere

she lost...> > > > > > I'd be greatful for any thoughts on this, and

again, I don't > want > > to > > > invalidate anyone who was subject

to BPD behaviour early on...> > >> >> > > > > > > >

__________________________________________________>

[Guest guest]

Also, unfortunately for me, my smother does not practice this. When

she is feeling rejected, she simply inserts herself EVEN MORE into my

life, demanding I tell her why I only want to talk to her once a week

by keeping me on the phone for hours talking about what a jerk I am.

She did threaten once to " never speak to " me again. " Would you like

that???? " she said.

Yes, I would, but I said no. She has not threatened it since. I

think deep down she knows I would be perfectly happy to never speak to

her again.

> > >> > > So, I think I know what I feel the answer is, but the

whole > thing > > > troubles me, and I'd be greatful for any different

> perspectives...> > > > > > Before that, though, I just also want to

say that reading other > > > peoples experiences has made me realise

that in many ways I had > it > > > easy... there was never any

physical abuse... there were times > whan > > > my mother was

supportive, and I've had to be physically seperate > > > from my

mother for most of my adult life - so besides making > > > excuses,

perspective has been easier, so in saying anything I > don't > > >

want to belittle or invalidate anyone else's experience.> > > > > >

So... to get to the point..> > > > > > Having started to deal with my

mother rather than continue the > same > > > old pattern .... one of

the most uncomfortable features is that > I > > > have to sift through

memories of my life, and see them from a > new > > > perspective.> > >

> > > This helps to understand some really troubling memories (such as

> my > > > mother threatening to leave my Dad when I was 12, then

agreeing > to > > > stay, but only on certain conditions, including

that " me and my > > > brother stop cuddling naked " - of course we

agreed, but silently > I > > > still remember the shock and " but we

don't!! - what are we > doing > > > wrong? we must be doing

*something* wrong??!! " and the shame > that > > > followed - I can

trace the lack of closeness with my brother > now, > > > back to that

point, and of course, that was the intention... > divide > > > and

conquer..)> > > > > > But... where does it end... was everything my

mother ever did > > > motivated by BPD ? - that just doesn't ring

true... there were > > times > > > when it wasn't all bad or all

good..> > > > > > .. I do think my mother's problems go back to

childhood... but I > > > think that we had such a chaotic lifestyle

anyway (not from > BPD.. > > > just that we would move every two

years.. we lived in Africa, > the > > > Far East, back in Scotland...

never stable, but all for good > > > reasons, and there were plenty of

good times and > opportunities... I > > > had a very happy childhood)>

> > > > > ... so the chaos - and that my Father did cheat on her (and

of > > > course, everything I'd taken for fact now needs to be re->

thought) > > > gave her a focus.... she could blame circumstances for

how she > > felt..> > > > > > Then when I was 12, she announced that

they were to be > divorced... > > > and then followed about 15 years

of 'breaking up' - again.. more > > > chaos she could blame..> > > > >

> In amongst that ... her car was stolen at gunpoint in Africa.. > she

> > > blacked out and came to with no car, and footprints on her >

chest.. > > > clearly a traumatic incident - she left Africa (where

the family > > > was) and refused to return, though my Father refused

to try to > find > > > work in Scotland. > > > > > > Essentially from

that point on, she had less and less to > blame... > > > there was

less contact with my Father... eventually complete > > > divorce, then

he died later... and she was left alone, with > nothing > > > to

explain her feelings...> > > > > > My brother lived with her for a

while... but that was a sad tale > of > > > enmeshment (though he has

now escaped, and I've never had a > frank > > > conversation with him

about any of this..)> > > > > > ... so it all gradually started to

shift to me.. Initially I > felt > > > like I was being a supportive

son and giving her a shoulder to > cry > > > on (aged 17), but

eventually started to tell her she needed to > > start > > > thinking

more positively, and forgive the people she constantly > > > raged

about..> > > > > > Of course the rest is obvious; I became more and

more of a > target, > > > and I look like my Father did... now the

examples of her > behaviour > > > ar every bit as extreme as others

posted here.. I'm still > shocked > > at > > > the similarities, the

strategies used, the lack of logic...> > > > > > > > > I guess my

point is... before all of that, can I still feel like > my > > >

Mother was pretty much a normal person (she was always a high > > >

functioning person) who built up coping mechanisms to deal with > her

> > > bitterness which 'blossomed' into BPD - > > > > > > Or was she

always this way, but that it was mainly hidden till > the > > > last

fifteen years or so..?> > > > > > Can I believe that she was capable

of Love, or do I essentially > > need > > > to reconcile myself with

the idea that she never loved me > because > > > she never could. ?> >

> > > > I know many of the people here feel that their nadas never

loved > > > them... but I don't have those definite memories of

neglect or > > > rejection... in many ways I think my mother fought

hard against > the > > > same tendencies I feel now... but somewhere

she lost...> > > > > > I'd be greatful for any thoughts on this, and

again, I don't > want > > to > > > invalidate anyone who was subject

to BPD behaviour early on...> > >> >> > > > > > > >

__________________________________________________>

[Guest guest]

Thanks! That makes more sense.

To: WTOAdultChildren1@...: vegdeanna@...: Wed, 17 Oct

2007 18:36:13 +0000Subject: Re: QUestion about borderline

and abandonment

Also, unfortunately for me, my smother does not practice this. Whenshe is

feeling rejected, she simply inserts herself EVEN MORE into mylife, demanding I

tell her why I only want to talk to her once a weekby keeping me on the phone

for hours talking about what a jerk I am. She did threaten once to " never speak

to " me again. " Would you likethat???? " she said.Yes, I would, but I said no. She

has not threatened it since. Ithink deep down she knows I would be perfectly

happy to never speak toher again.> > >> > > So, I think I know what I feel

the answer is, but thewhole > thing > > > troubles me, and I'd be greatful for

any different> perspectives...> > > > > > Before that, though, I just also want

tosay that reading other > > > peoples experiences has made me realisethat in

many ways I had > it > > > easy... there was never anyphysical abuse... there

were times > whan > > > my mother wassupportive, and I've had to be physically

seperate > > > from mymother for most of my adult life - so besides making > > >

excuses,perspective has been easier, so in saying anything I > don't > > >want

to belittle or invalidate anyone else's experience.> > > > > >So... to get to

the point..> > > > > > Having started to deal with mymother rather than continue

the > same > > > old pattern .... one ofthe most uncomfortable features is that

> I > > > have to sift throughmemories of my life, and see them from a > new > >

> perspective.> > >> > > This helps to understand some really troubling memories

(such as> my > > > mother threatening to leave my Dad when I was 12,

thenagreeing > to > > > stay, but only on certain conditions, includingthat " me

and my > > > brother stop cuddling naked " - of course weagreed, but silently > I

> > > still remember the shock and " but wedon't!! - what are we > doing > > >

wrong? we must be doing*something* wrong??!! " and the shame > that > > >

followed - I cantrace the lack of closeness with my brother > now, > > > back to

thatpoint, and of course, that was the intention... > divide > > >

andconquer..)> > > > > > But... where does it end... was everything mymother

ever did > > > motivated by BPD ? - that just doesn't ringtrue... there were > >

times > > > when it wasn't all bad or allgood..> > > > > > .. I do think my

mother's problems go back tochildhood... but I > > > think that we had such a

chaotic lifestyleanyway (not from > BPD.. > > > just that we would move every

twoyears.. we lived in Africa, > the > > > Far East, back in Scotland...never

stable, but all for good > > > reasons, and there were plenty ofgood times and >

opportunities... I > > > had a very happy childhood)>> > > > > ... so the chaos

- and that my Father did cheat on her (andof > > > course, everything I'd taken

for fact now needs to be re->thought) > > > gave her a focus.... she could blame

circumstances forhow she > > felt..> > > > > > Then when I was 12, she announced

thatthey were to be > divorced... > > > and then followed about 15 yearsof

'breaking up' - again.. more > > > chaos she could blame..> > > > >> In amongst

that ... her car was stolen at gunpoint in Africa.. > she> > > blacked out and

came to with no car, and footprints on her >chest.. > > > clearly a traumatic

incident - she left Africa (wherethe family > > > was) and refused to return,

though my Father refusedto try to > find > > > work in Scotland. > > > > > >

Essentially fromthat point on, she had less and less to > blame... > > > there

wasless contact with my Father... eventually complete > > > divorce, thenhe died

later... and she was left alone, with > nothing > > > toexplain her feelings...>

> > > > > My brother lived with her for awhile... but that was a sad tale > of >

> > enmeshment (though he hasnow escaped, and I've never had a > frank > > >

conversation with himabout any of this..)> > > > > > ... so it all gradually

started toshift to me.. Initially I > felt > > > like I was being a

supportiveson and giving her a shoulder to > cry > > > on (aged 17),

buteventually started to tell her she needed to > > start > > > thinkingmore

positively, and forgive the people she constantly > > > ragedabout..> > > > > >

Of course the rest is obvious; I became more andmore of a > target, > > > and I

look like my Father did... now theexamples of her > behaviour > > > ar every bit

as extreme as othersposted here.. I'm still > shocked > > at > > > the

similarities, thestrategies used, the lack of logic...> > > > > > > > > I guess

mypoint is... before all of that, can I still feel like > my > > >Mother was

pretty much a normal person (she was always a high > > >functioning person) who

built up coping mechanisms to deal with > her> > > bitterness which 'blossomed'

into BPD - > > > > > > Or was shealways this way, but that it was mainly hidden

till > the > > > lastfifteen years or so..?> > > > > > Can I believe that she

was capableof Love, or do I essentially > > need > > > to reconcile myself

withthe idea that she never loved me > because > > > she never could. ?> >> > >

> I know many of the people here feel that their nadas neverloved > > > them...

but I don't have those definite memories ofneglect or > > > rejection... in many

ways I think my mother foughthard against > the > > > same tendencies I feel

now... but somewhereshe lost...> > > > > > I'd be greatful for any thoughts on

this, andagain, I don't > want > > to > > > invalidate anyone who was subjectto

BPD behaviour early on...> > >> >> > > > > > >

>__________________________________________________>

[Guest guest]

This is my nada's trick. Everytime in the past I've tried boundaries

and been stupid enough to announce it, she responds with something

like, " Fine I'll just never call you again. " They always have to be

the ones setting the rules and controlling.

le

> > >> > > So, I think I know what I feel the answer is, but

the

> whole > thing > > > troubles me, and I'd be greatful for any

different

> > perspectives...> > > > > > Before that, though, I just also want

to

> say that reading other > > > peoples experiences has made me realise

> that in many ways I had > it > > > easy... there was never any

> physical abuse... there were times > whan > > > my mother was

> supportive, and I've had to be physically seperate > > > from my

> mother for most of my adult life - so besides making > > > excuses,

> perspective has been easier, so in saying anything I > don't > > >

> want to belittle or invalidate anyone else's experience.> > > > > >

> So... to get to the point..> > > > > > Having started to deal with

my

> mother rather than continue the > same > > > old pattern .... one of

> the most uncomfortable features is that > I > > > have to sift

through

> memories of my life, and see them from a > new > > > perspective.>

> >

> > > > This helps to understand some really troubling memories (such

as

> > my > > > mother threatening to leave my Dad when I was 12, then

> agreeing > to > > > stay, but only on certain conditions, including

> that " me and my > > > brother stop cuddling naked " - of course we

> agreed, but silently > I > > > still remember the shock and " but we

> don't!! - what are we > doing > > > wrong? we must be doing

> *something* wrong??!! " and the shame > that > > > followed - I can

> trace the lack of closeness with my brother > now, > > > back to

that

> point, and of course, that was the intention... > divide > > > and

> conquer..)> > > > > > But... where does it end... was everything my

> mother ever did > > > motivated by BPD ? - that just doesn't ring

> true... there were > > times > > > when it wasn't all bad or all

> good..> > > > > > .. I do think my mother's problems go back to

> childhood... but I > > > think that we had such a chaotic lifestyle

> anyway (not from > BPD.. > > > just that we would move every two

> years.. we lived in Africa, > the > > > Far East, back in

Scotland...

> never stable, but all for good > > > reasons, and there were plenty

of

> good times and > opportunities... I > > > had a very happy

childhood)>

> > > > > > ... so the chaos - and that my Father did cheat on her

(and

> of > > > course, everything I'd taken for fact now needs to be re->

> thought) > > > gave her a focus.... she could blame circumstances

for

> how she > > felt..> > > > > > Then when I was 12, she announced that

> they were to be > divorced... > > > and then followed about 15 years

> of 'breaking up' - again.. more > > > chaos she could blame..> > >

> >

> > In amongst that ... her car was stolen at gunpoint in Africa.. >

she

> > > > blacked out and came to with no car, and footprints on her >

> chest.. > > > clearly a traumatic incident - she left Africa (where

> the family > > > was) and refused to return, though my Father

refused

> to try to > find > > > work in Scotland. > > > > > > Essentially

from

> that point on, she had less and less to > blame... > > > there was

> less contact with my Father... eventually complete > > > divorce,

then

> he died later... and she was left alone, with > nothing > > > to

> explain her feelings...> > > > > > My brother lived with her for a

> while... but that was a sad tale > of > > > enmeshment (though he

has

> now escaped, and I've never had a > frank > > > conversation with

him

> about any of this..)> > > > > > ... so it all gradually started to

> shift to me.. Initially I > felt > > > like I was being a supportive

> son and giving her a shoulder to > cry > > > on (aged 17), but

> eventually started to tell her she needed to > > start > > >

thinking

> more positively, and forgive the people she constantly > > > raged

> about..> > > > > > Of course the rest is obvious; I became more and

> more of a > target, > > > and I look like my Father did... now the

> examples of her > behaviour > > > ar every bit as extreme as others

> posted here.. I'm still > shocked > > at > > > the similarities, the

> strategies used, the lack of logic...> > > > > > > > > I guess my

> point is... before all of that, can I still feel like > my > > >

> Mother was pretty much a normal person (she was always a high > > >

> functioning person) who built up coping mechanisms to deal with >

her

> > > > bitterness which 'blossomed' into BPD - > > > > > > Or was she

> always this way, but that it was mainly hidden till > the > > > last

> fifteen years or so..?> > > > > > Can I believe that she was capable

> of Love, or do I essentially > > need > > > to reconcile myself with

> the idea that she never loved me > because > > > she never could. ?

> >

> > > > > I know many of the people here feel that their nadas never

> loved > > > them... but I don't have those definite memories of

> neglect or > > > rejection... in many ways I think my mother fought

> hard against > the > > > same tendencies I feel now... but somewhere

> she lost...> > > > > > I'd be greatful for any thoughts on this, and

> again, I don't > want > > to > > > invalidate anyone who was subject

> to BPD behaviour early on...> > >> >> > > > > > > >

> __________________________________________________>

[Guest guest]

Yes! It's like a pre-emptive rejection -- " I'll reject you before

you have a chance to reject me. " Maybe they hope it will make you

come running -- or at least get a reaction from you that shows

you " care " . Kind of like a couple where one party breaks up, hoping

that the other will come running, never intending to REALLY break

up. They just like the feeling they get when the other person is

desperate to get their affection back.

-Kyla

> > >> > > So, I think I know what I feel the answer is, but

the

> whole > thing > > > troubles me, and I'd be greatful for any

different

> > perspectives...> > > > > > Before that, though, I just also want

to

> say that reading other > > > peoples experiences has made me

realise

> that in many ways I had > it > > > easy... there was never any

> physical abuse... there were times > whan > > > my mother was

> supportive, and I've had to be physically seperate > > > from my

> mother for most of my adult life - so besides making > > > excuses,

> perspective has been easier, so in saying anything I > don't > > >

> want to belittle or invalidate anyone else's experience.> > > > > >

> So... to get to the point..> > > > > > Having started to deal with

my

> mother rather than continue the > same > > > old pattern .... one

of

> the most uncomfortable features is that > I > > > have to sift

through

> memories of my life, and see them from a > new > > > perspective.>

> >

> > > > This helps to understand some really troubling memories

(such as

> > my > > > mother threatening to leave my Dad when I was 12, then

> agreeing > to > > > stay, but only on certain conditions, including

> that " me and my > > > brother stop cuddling naked " - of course we

> agreed, but silently > I > > > still remember the shock and " but we

> don't!! - what are we > doing > > > wrong? we must be doing

> *something* wrong??!! " and the shame > that > > > followed - I can

> trace the lack of closeness with my brother > now, > > > back to

that

> point, and of course, that was the intention... > divide > > > and

> conquer..)> > > > > > But... where does it end... was everything my

> mother ever did > > > motivated by BPD ? - that just doesn't ring

> true... there were > > times > > > when it wasn't all bad or all

> good..> > > > > > .. I do think my mother's problems go back to

> childhood... but I > > > think that we had such a chaotic lifestyle

> anyway (not from > BPD.. > > > just that we would move every two

> years.. we lived in Africa, > the > > > Far East, back in

Scotland...

> never stable, but all for good > > > reasons, and there were

plenty of

> good times and > opportunities... I > > > had a very happy

childhood)>

> > > > > > ... so the chaos - and that my Father did cheat on her

(and

> of > > > course, everything I'd taken for fact now needs to be re->

> thought) > > > gave her a focus.... she could blame circumstances

for

> how she > > felt..> > > > > > Then when I was 12, she announced

that

> they were to be > divorced... > > > and then followed about 15

years

> of 'breaking up' - again.. more > > > chaos she could blame..> > >

> >

> > In amongst that ... her car was stolen at gunpoint in Africa.. >

she

> > > > blacked out and came to with no car, and footprints on her >

> chest.. > > > clearly a traumatic incident - she left Africa (where

> the family > > > was) and refused to return, though my Father

refused

> to try to > find > > > work in Scotland. > > > > > > Essentially

from

> that point on, she had less and less to > blame... > > > there was

> less contact with my Father... eventually complete > > > divorce,

then

> he died later... and she was left alone, with > nothing > > > to

> explain her feelings...> > > > > > My brother lived with her for a

> while... but that was a sad tale > of > > > enmeshment (though he

has

> now escaped, and I've never had a > frank > > > conversation with

him

> about any of this..)> > > > > > ... so it all gradually started to

> shift to me.. Initially I > felt > > > like I was being a

supportive

> son and giving her a shoulder to > cry > > > on (aged 17), but

> eventually started to tell her she needed to > > start > > >

thinking

> more positively, and forgive the people she constantly > > > raged

> about..> > > > > > Of course the rest is obvious; I became more and

> more of a > target, > > > and I look like my Father did... now the

> examples of her > behaviour > > > ar every bit as extreme as others

> posted here.. I'm still > shocked > > at > > > the similarities,

the

> strategies used, the lack of logic...> > > > > > > > > I guess my

> point is... before all of that, can I still feel like > my > > >

> Mother was pretty much a normal person (she was always a high > > >

> functioning person) who built up coping mechanisms to deal with >

her

> > > > bitterness which 'blossomed' into BPD - > > > > > > Or was

she

> always this way, but that it was mainly hidden till > the > > >

last

> fifteen years or so..?> > > > > > Can I believe that she was

capable

> of Love, or do I essentially > > need > > > to reconcile myself

with

> the idea that she never loved me > because > > > she never could. ?

> >

> > > > > I know many of the people here feel that their nadas never

> loved > > > them... but I don't have those definite memories of

> neglect or > > > rejection... in many ways I think my mother fought

> hard against > the > > > same tendencies I feel now... but

somewhere

> she lost...> > > > > > I'd be greatful for any thoughts on this,

and

> again, I don't > want > > to > > > invalidate anyone who was

subject

> to BPD behaviour early on...> > >> >> > > > > > > >

> __________________________________________________>

[Guest guest]

My nada never fails to get angry whenever I dare to set a boundary.

I guess it's a threat to their power.

-K

> > >> > > So, I think I know what I feel the answer is,

but

> the

> > whole > thing > > > troubles me, and I'd be greatful for any

> different

> > > perspectives...> > > > > > Before that, though, I just also

want

> to

> > say that reading other > > > peoples experiences has made me

realise

> > that in many ways I had > it > > > easy... there was never any

> > physical abuse... there were times > whan > > > my mother was

> > supportive, and I've had to be physically seperate > > > from my

> > mother for most of my adult life - so besides making > > >

excuses,

> > perspective has been easier, so in saying anything I > don't > >

>

> > want to belittle or invalidate anyone else's experience.> > > >

> >

> > So... to get to the point..> > > > > > Having started to deal

with

> my

> > mother rather than continue the > same > > > old pattern ....

one of

> > the most uncomfortable features is that > I > > > have to sift

> through

> > memories of my life, and see them from a > new > > >

perspective.>

> > >

> > > > > This helps to understand some really troubling memories

(such

> as

> > > my > > > mother threatening to leave my Dad when I was 12, then

> > agreeing > to > > > stay, but only on certain conditions,

including

> > that " me and my > > > brother stop cuddling naked " - of course we

> > agreed, but silently > I > > > still remember the shock and " but

we

> > don't!! - what are we > doing > > > wrong? we must be doing

> > *something* wrong??!! " and the shame > that > > > followed - I

can

> > trace the lack of closeness with my brother > now, > > > back to

> that

> > point, and of course, that was the intention... > divide > > >

and

> > conquer..)> > > > > > But... where does it end... was everything

my

> > mother ever did > > > motivated by BPD ? - that just doesn't ring

> > true... there were > > times > > > when it wasn't all bad or all

> > good..> > > > > > .. I do think my mother's problems go back to

> > childhood... but I > > > think that we had such a chaotic

lifestyle

> > anyway (not from > BPD.. > > > just that we would move every two

> > years.. we lived in Africa, > the > > > Far East, back in

> Scotland...

> > never stable, but all for good > > > reasons, and there were

plenty

> of

> > good times and > opportunities... I > > > had a very happy

> childhood)>

> > > > > > > ... so the chaos - and that my Father did cheat on her

> (and

> > of > > > course, everything I'd taken for fact now needs to be

re->

> > thought) > > > gave her a focus.... she could blame

circumstances

> for

> > how she > > felt..> > > > > > Then when I was 12, she announced

that

> > they were to be > divorced... > > > and then followed about 15

years

> > of 'breaking up' - again.. more > > > chaos she could blame..> >

>

> > >

> > > In amongst that ... her car was stolen at gunpoint in Africa..

>

> she

> > > > > blacked out and came to with no car, and footprints on her

>

> > chest.. > > > clearly a traumatic incident - she left Africa

(where

> > the family > > > was) and refused to return, though my Father

> refused

> > to try to > find > > > work in Scotland. > > > > > > Essentially

> from

> > that point on, she had less and less to > blame... > > > there

was

> > less contact with my Father... eventually complete > > >

divorce,

> then

> > he died later... and she was left alone, with > nothing > > > to

> > explain her feelings...> > > > > > My brother lived with her for

a

> > while... but that was a sad tale > of > > > enmeshment (though

he

> has

> > now escaped, and I've never had a > frank > > > conversation

with

> him

> > about any of this..)> > > > > > ... so it all gradually started

to

> > shift to me.. Initially I > felt > > > like I was being a

supportive

> > son and giving her a shoulder to > cry > > > on (aged 17), but

> > eventually started to tell her she needed to > > start > > >

> thinking

> > more positively, and forgive the people she constantly > > >

raged

> > about..> > > > > > Of course the rest is obvious; I became more

and

> > more of a > target, > > > and I look like my Father did... now

the

> > examples of her > behaviour > > > ar every bit as extreme as

others

> > posted here.. I'm still > shocked > > at > > > the similarities,

the

> > strategies used, the lack of logic...> > > > > > > > > I guess my

> > point is... before all of that, can I still feel like > my > > >

> > Mother was pretty much a normal person (she was always a high >

> >

> > functioning person) who built up coping mechanisms to deal with

>

> her

> > > > > bitterness which 'blossomed' into BPD - > > > > > > Or was

she

> > always this way, but that it was mainly hidden till > the > > >

last

> > fifteen years or so..?> > > > > > Can I believe that she was

capable

> > of Love, or do I essentially > > need > > > to reconcile myself

with

> > the idea that she never loved me > because > > > she never

could. ?

> > >

> > > > > > I know many of the people here feel that their nadas

never

> > loved > > > them... but I don't have those definite memories of

> > neglect or > > > rejection... in many ways I think my mother

fought

> > hard against > the > > > same tendencies I feel now... but

somewhere

> > she lost...> > > > > > I'd be greatful for any thoughts on this,

and

> > again, I don't > want > > to > > > invalidate anyone who was

subject

> > to BPD behaviour early on...> > >> >> > > > > > > >

> > __________________________________________________> Do You

Yahoo!?>

> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >

> > http://mail.yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message

have

> been

> > removed]>__________________________________________________Do You

> > Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection

> around

> > http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have

been

> > removed]

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

_________________________________________________________________

> > > Climb to the top of the charts! Play Star Shuffle: the word

> > scramble challenge with star power.

> > >

> > http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?

> icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oct

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Narcissists do that. mcuh like the Borderline they too fear

abandonment but instead of clinging as the BPD usually does they -

" Create " a situation which forces the other to abandon them. So the

NPD is the one " in control " or they may choose to abandon the ohter

before they in turn get abandoned. kind of like " I beat you to the

punch and I am in control.

Sometimes borderlines " abandon " first but it is really play-act and

short lived as thier need to cling overides it and they come running

back for more, or get you to come back to them for more

clinging/rejection. They are not nearly sophisticated as the NPD.

Its a never ending cycle.

Tina

-- In WTOAdultChildren1 , " vegdeanna "

wrote:

>

> Though it may seem counterproductive, one can avoid abandonment by

> abandoning YOU FIRST. This IS fear of abandonment, played out by

> beating you to the punch.

>

>

> > > >> > > So, I think I know what I feel the answer is, but

the

> whole > thing > > > troubles me, and I'd be greatful for any

different

> > perspectives...> > > > > > Before that, though, I just also want

to

> say that reading other > > > peoples experiences has made me

realise

> that in many ways I had > it > > > easy... there was never any

> physical abuse... there were times > whan > > > my mother was

> supportive, and I've had to be physically seperate > > > from my

> mother for most of my adult life - so besides making > > > excuses,

> perspective has been easier, so in saying anything I > don't > > >

> want to belittle or invalidate anyone else's experience.> > > > > >

> So... to get to the point..> > > > > > Having started to deal with

my

> mother rather than continue the > same > > > old pattern .... one

of

> the most uncomfortable features is that > I > > > have to sift

through

> memories of my life, and see them from a > new > > > perspective.>

> >

> > > > This helps to understand some really troubling memories

(such as

> > my > > > mother threatening to leave my Dad when I was 12, then

> agreeing > to > > > stay, but only on certain conditions, including

> that " me and my > > > brother stop cuddling naked " - of course we

> agreed, but silently > I > > > still remember the shock and " but we

> don't!! - what are we > doing > > > wrong? we must be doing

> *something* wrong??!! " and the shame > that > > > followed - I can

> trace the lack of closeness with my brother > now, > > > back to

that

> point, and of course, that was the intention... > divide > > > and

> conquer..)> > > > > > But... where does it end... was everything my

> mother ever did > > > motivated by BPD ? - that just doesn't ring

> true... there were > > times > > > when it wasn't all bad or all

> good..> > > > > > .. I do think my mother's problems go back to

> childhood... but I > > > think that we had such a chaotic lifestyle

> anyway (not from > BPD.. > > > just that we would move every two

> years.. we lived in Africa, > the > > > Far East, back in

Scotland...

> never stable, but all for good > > > reasons, and there were

plenty of

> good times and > opportunities... I > > > had a very happy

childhood)>

> > > > > > ... so the chaos - and that my Father did cheat on her

(and

> of > > > course, everything I'd taken for fact now needs to be re->

> thought) > > > gave her a focus.... she could blame circumstances

for

> how she > > felt..> > > > > > Then when I was 12, she announced

that

> they were to be > divorced... > > > and then followed about 15

years

> of 'breaking up' - again.. more > > > chaos she could blame..> > >

> >

> > In amongst that ... her car was stolen at gunpoint in Africa.. >

she

> > > > blacked out and came to with no car, and footprints on her >

> chest.. > > > clearly a traumatic incident - she left Africa (where

> the family > > > was) and refused to return, though my Father

refused

> to try to > find > > > work in Scotland. > > > > > > Essentially

from

> that point on, she had less and less to > blame... > > > there was

> less contact with my Father... eventually complete > > > divorce,

then

> he died later... and she was left alone, with > nothing > > > to

> explain her feelings...> > > > > > My brother lived with her for a

> while... but that was a sad tale > of > > > enmeshment (though he

has

> now escaped, and I've never had a > frank > > > conversation with

him

> about any of this..)> > > > > > ... so it all gradually started to

> shift to me.. Initially I > felt > > > like I was being a

supportive

> son and giving her a shoulder to > cry > > > on (aged 17), but

> eventually started to tell her she needed to > > start > > >

thinking

> more positively, and forgive the people she constantly > > > raged

> about..> > > > > > Of course the rest is obvious; I became more and

> more of a > target, > > > and I look like my Father did... now the

> examples of her > behaviour > > > ar every bit as extreme as others

> posted here.. I'm still > shocked > > at > > > the similarities,

the

> strategies used, the lack of logic...> > > > > > > > > I guess my

> point is... before all of that, can I still feel like > my > > >

> Mother was pretty much a normal person (she was always a high > > >

> functioning person) who built up coping mechanisms to deal with >

her

> > > > bitterness which 'blossomed' into BPD - > > > > > > Or was

she

> always this way, but that it was mainly hidden till > the > > >

last

> fifteen years or so..?> > > > > > Can I believe that she was

capable

> of Love, or do I essentially > > need > > > to reconcile myself

with

> the idea that she never loved me > because > > > she never could. ?

> >

> > > > > I know many of the people here feel that their nadas never

> loved > > > them... but I don't have those definite memories of

> neglect or > > > rejection... in many ways I think my mother fought

> hard against > the > > > same tendencies I feel now... but

somewhere

> she lost...> > > > > > I'd be greatful for any thoughts on this,

and

> again, I don't > want > > to > > > invalidate anyone who was

subject

> to BPD behaviour early on...> > >> >> > > > > > > >

> __________________________________________________>

[Guest guest]

Tina,

Thanks, I see both NP and BP traits in my mother and therefore I get confused at

some of her actions. She is extremely vain and has had multiple plastic surgery

operations. Thanks!

Kelley

To: WTOAdultChildren1@...: freakchild63@...: Wed, 17

Oct 2007 22:32:46 +0000Subject: Re: QUestion about

borderline and abandonment

Narcissists do that. mcuh like the Borderline they too fear abandonment but

instead of clinging as the BPD usually does they - " Create " a situation which

forces the other to abandon them. So the NPD is the one " in control " or they may

choose to abandon the ohter before they in turn get abandoned. kind of like " I

beat you to the punch and I am in control. Sometimes borderlines " abandon " first

but it is really play-act and short lived as thier need to cling overides it and

they come running back for more, or get you to come back to them for more

clinging/rejection. They are not nearly sophisticated as the NPD.Its a never

ending cycle. Tina-- In WTOAdultChildren1 , " vegdeanna "

wrote:>> Though it may seem counterproductive, one can avoid

abandonment by> abandoning YOU FIRST. This IS fear of abandonment, played out

by> beating you to the punch.> > > > >

>> > > So, I think I know what I feel the answer is, but the> whole > thing > >

> troubles me, and I'd be greatful for any different> > perspectives...> > > > >

> Before that, though, I just also want to> say that reading other > > > peoples

experiences has made me realise> that in many ways I had > it > > > easy...

there was never any> physical abuse... there were times > whan > > > my mother

was> supportive, and I've had to be physically seperate > > > from my> mother

for most of my adult life - so besides making > > > excuses,> perspective has

been easier, so in saying anything I > don't > > >> want to belittle or

invalidate anyone else's experience.> > > > > >> So... to get to the point..> >

> > > > Having started to deal with my> mother rather than continue the > same >

> > old pattern .... one of> the most uncomfortable features is that > I > > >

have to sift through> memories of my life, and see them from a > new > > >

perspective.> > >> > > > This helps to understand some really troubling memories

(such as> > my > > > mother threatening to leave my Dad when I was 12, then>

agreeing > to > > > stay, but only on certain conditions, including> that " me

and my > > > brother stop cuddling naked " - of course we> agreed, but silently >

I > > > still remember the shock and " but we> don't!! - what are we > doing > >

> wrong? we must be doing> *something* wrong??!! " and the shame > that > > >

followed - I can> trace the lack of closeness with my brother > now, > > > back

to that> point, and of course, that was the intention... > divide > > > and>

conquer..)> > > > > > But... where does it end... was everything my> mother ever

did > > > motivated by BPD ? - that just doesn't ring> true... there were > >

times > > > when it wasn't all bad or all> good..> > > > > > .. I do think my

mother's problems go back to> childhood... but I > > > think that we had such a

chaotic lifestyle> anyway (not from > BPD.. > > > just that we would move every

two> years.. we lived in Africa, > the > > > Far East, back in Scotland...>

never stable, but all for good > > > reasons, and there were plenty of> good

times and > opportunities... I > > > had a very happy childhood)>> > > > > > ...

so the chaos - and that my Father did cheat on her (and> of > > > course,

everything I'd taken for fact now needs to be re->> thought) > > > gave her a

focus.... she could blame circumstances for> how she > > felt..> > > > > > Then

when I was 12, she announced that> they were to be > divorced... > > > and then

followed about 15 years> of 'breaking up' - again.. more > > > chaos she could

blame..> > > > >> > In amongst that ... her car was stolen at gunpoint in

Africa.. > she> > > > blacked out and came to with no car, and footprints on her

>> chest.. > > > clearly a traumatic incident - she left Africa (where> the

family > > > was) and refused to return, though my Father refused> to try to >

find > > > work in Scotland. > > > > > > Essentially from> that point on, she

had less and less to > blame... > > > there was> less contact with my Father...

eventually complete > > > divorce, then> he died later... and she was left

alone, with > nothing > > > to> explain her feelings...> > > > > > My brother

lived with her for a> while... but that was a sad tale > of > > > enmeshment

(though he has> now escaped, and I've never had a > frank > > > conversation

with him> about any of this..)> > > > > > ... so it all gradually started to>

shift to me.. Initially I > felt > > > like I was being a supportive> son and

giving her a shoulder to > cry > > > on (aged 17), but> eventually started to

tell her she needed to > > start > > > thinking> more positively, and forgive

the people she constantly > > > raged> about..> > > > > > Of course the rest is

obvious; I became more and> more of a > target, > > > and I look like my Father

did... now the> examples of her > behaviour > > > ar every bit as extreme as

others> posted here.. I'm still > shocked > > at > > > the similarities, the>

strategies used, the lack of logic...> > > > > > > > > I guess my> point is...

before all of that, can I still feel like > my > > >> Mother was pretty much a

normal person (she was always a high > > >> functioning person) who built up

coping mechanisms to deal with > her> > > > bitterness which 'blossomed' into

BPD - > > > > > > Or was she> always this way, but that it was mainly hidden

till > the > > > last> fifteen years or so..?> > > > > > Can I believe that she

was capable> of Love, or do I essentially > > need > > > to reconcile myself

with> the idea that she never loved me > because > > > she never could. ?> >> >

> > > I know many of the people here feel that their nadas never> loved > > >

them... but I don't have those definite memories of> neglect or > > >

rejection... in many ways I think my mother fought> hard against > the > > >

same tendencies I feel now... but somewhere> she lost...> > > > > > I'd be

greatful for any thoughts on this, and> again, I don't > want > > to > > >

invalidate anyone who was subject> to BPD behaviour early on...> > >> >> > > > >

> > >> __________________________________________________>

[Guest guest]

vegdeanna has explained this well. I saw it in my mother many times.

When she would become paranoid that her caregiver didn't like her and

was going to leave her, she would find some fault with her and as she

put it to me once, " play my card FIRST! " and fire her. She was fired

at least three times by mother. Afterward, mother would regret it and

beg her to come back. She was a good person who understood mother's

illness so she did come back many times. In the end, after mother

accusing her of stealing for the umpteenth time, she really did leave.

Mother died within 10 days. It was just the last straw on top of all

my mother's misery and she finally gave up. It was really a

blessing, as she needed to go. There was nothing left to look forward

to in her life any more. Dee

> > >> > > So, I think I know what I feel the answer is, but the

> whole > thing > > > troubles me, and I'd be greatful for any different

> > perspectives...> > > > > > Before that, though, I just also want to

> say that reading other > > > peoples experiences has made me realise

> that in many ways I had > it > > > easy... there was never any

> physical abuse... there were times > whan > > > my mother was

> supportive, and I've had to be physically seperate > > > from my

> mother for most of my adult life - so besides making > > > excuses,

> perspective has been easier, so in saying anything I > don't > > >

> want to belittle or invalidate anyone else's experience.> > > > > >

> So... to get to the point..> > > > > > Having started to deal with my

> mother rather than continue the > same > > > old pattern .... one of

> the most uncomfortable features is that > I > > > have to sift through

> memories of my life, and see them from a > new > > > perspective.> > >

> > > > This helps to understand some really troubling memories (such as

> > my > > > mother threatening to leave my Dad when I was 12, then

> agreeing > to > > > stay, but only on certain conditions, including

> that " me and my > > > brother stop cuddling naked " - of course we

> agreed, but silently > I > > > still remember the shock and " but we

> don't!! - what are we > doing > > > wrong? we must be doing

> *something* wrong??!! " and the shame > that > > > followed - I can

> trace the lack of closeness with my brother > now, > > > back to that

> point, and of course, that was the intention... > divide > > > and

> conquer..)> > > > > > But... where does it end... was everything my

> mother ever did > > > motivated by BPD ? - that just doesn't ring

> true... there were > > times > > > when it wasn't all bad or all

> good..> > > > > > .. I do think my mother's problems go back to

> childhood... but I > > > think that we had such a chaotic lifestyle

> anyway (not from > BPD.. > > > just that we would move every two

> years.. we lived in Africa, > the > > > Far East, back in Scotland...

> never stable, but all for good > > > reasons, and there were plenty of

> good times and > opportunities... I > > > had a very happy childhood)>

> > > > > > ... so the chaos - and that my Father did cheat on her (and

> of > > > course, everything I'd taken for fact now needs to be re->

> thought) > > > gave her a focus.... she could blame circumstances for

> how she > > felt..> > > > > > Then when I was 12, she announced that

> they were to be > divorced... > > > and then followed about 15 years

> of 'breaking up' - again.. more > > > chaos she could blame..> > > > >

> > In amongst that ... her car was stolen at gunpoint in Africa.. > she

> > > > blacked out and came to with no car, and footprints on her >

> chest.. > > > clearly a traumatic incident - she left Africa (where

> the family > > > was) and refused to return, though my Father refused

> to try to > find > > > work in Scotland. > > > > > > Essentially from

> that point on, she had less and less to > blame... > > > there was

> less contact with my Father... eventually complete > > > divorce, then

> he died later... and she was left alone, with > nothing > > > to

> explain her feelings...> > > > > > My brother lived with her for a

> while... but that was a sad tale > of > > > enmeshment (though he has

> now escaped, and I've never had a > frank > > > conversation with him

> about any of this..)> > > > > > ... so it all gradually started to

> shift to me.. Initially I > felt > > > like I was being a supportive

> son and giving her a shoulder to > cry > > > on (aged 17), but

> eventually started to tell her she needed to > > start > > > thinking

> more positively, and forgive the people she constantly > > > raged

> about..> > > > > > Of course the rest is obvious; I became more and

> more of a > target, > > > and I look like my Father did... now the

> examples of her > behaviour > > > ar every bit as extreme as others

> posted here.. I'm still > shocked > > at > > > the similarities, the

> strategies used, the lack of logic...> > > > > > > > > I guess my

> point is... before all of that, can I still feel like > my > > >

> Mother was pretty much a normal person (she was always a high > > >

> functioning person) who built up coping mechanisms to deal with > her

> > > > bitterness which 'blossomed' into BPD - > > > > > > Or was she

> always this way, but that it was mainly hidden till > the > > > last

> fifteen years or so..?> > > > > > Can I believe that she was capable

> of Love, or do I essentially > > need > > > to reconcile myself with

> the idea that she never loved me > because > > > she never could. ?> >

> > > > > I know many of the people here feel that their nadas never

> loved > > > them... but I don't have those definite memories of

> neglect or > > > rejection... in many ways I think my mother fought

> hard against > the > > > same tendencies I feel now... but somewhere

> she lost...> > > > > > I'd be greatful for any thoughts on this, and

> again, I don't > want > > to > > > invalidate anyone who was subject

> to BPD behaviour early on...> > >> >> > > > > > > >

> __________________________________________________>

[Guest guest]

Perhaps from the other side, when I myself was still doing that lots of times,

before I was in therapy, it felt like a reflex, the other perrson felt like a

hot stove. This is not to make excuses for what I did, but I honestly feel that

a person doing this cannot help it at the moment they're doing it.-- Only

little by little, did I learn to take responsibility and that is I think where

bpd's have real trouble. They cannot say: I do this, and I'm sorry. It has to

do with something in me that I cannot control. My mother would be a million

times easier to deal with, I feel, kf she could say that.

Re: QUestion about borderline and abandonment

Yes! It's like a pre-emptive rejection -- " I'll reject you before

you have a chance to reject me. " Maybe they hope it will make you

come running -- or at least get a reaction from you that shows

you " care " . Kind of like a couple where one party breaks up, hoping

that the other will come running, never intending to REALLY break

up. They just like the feeling they get when the other person is

desperate to get their affection back.

-Kyla

> > >> > > So, I think I know what I feel the answer is, but

the

> whole > thing > > > troubles me, and I'd be greatful for any

different

> > perspectives...> > > > > > Before that, though, I just also want

to

> say that reading other > > > peoples experiences has made me

realise

> that in many ways I had > it > > > easy... there was never any

> physical abuse... there were times > whan > > > my mother was

> supportive, and I've had to be physically seperate > > > from my

> mother for most of my adult life - so besides making > > > excuses,

> perspective has been easier, so in saying anything I > don't > > >

> want to belittle or invalidate anyone else's experience.> > > > > >

> So... to get to the point..> > > > > > Having started to deal with

my

> mother rather than continue the > same > > > old pattern .... one

of

> the most uncomfortable features is that > I > > > have to sift

through

> memories of my life, and see them from a > new > > > perspective.>

> >

> > > > This helps to understand some really troubling memories

(such as

> > my > > > mother threatening to leave my Dad when I was 12, then

> agreeing > to > > > stay, but only on certain conditions, including

> that " me and my > > > brother stop cuddling naked " - of course we

> agreed, but silently > I > > > still remember the shock and " but we

> don't!! - what are we > doing > > > wrong? we must be doing

> *something* wrong??!! " and the shame > that > > > followed - I can

> trace the lack of closeness with my brother > now, > > > back to

that

> point, and of course, that was the intention... > divide > > > and

> conquer..)> > > > > > But... where does it end... was everything my

> mother ever did > > > motivated by BPD ? - that just doesn't ring

> true... there were > > times > > > when it wasn't all bad or all

> good..> > > > > > .. I do think my mother's problems go back to

> childhood... but I > > > think that we had such a chaotic lifestyle

> anyway (not from > BPD.. > > > just that we would move every two

> years.. we lived in Africa, > the > > > Far East, back in

Scotland...

> never stable, but all for good > > > reasons, and there were

plenty of

> good times and > opportunities... I > > > had a very happy

childhood)>

> > > > > > ... so the chaos - and that my Father did cheat on her

(and

> of > > > course, everything I'd taken for fact now needs to be re->

> thought) > > > gave her a focus.... she could blame circumstances

for

> how she > > felt..> > > > > > Then when I was 12, she announced

that

> they were to be > divorced... > > > and then followed about 15

years

> of 'breaking up' - again.. more > > > chaos she could blame..> > >

> >

> > In amongst that ... her car was stolen at gunpoint in Africa.. >

she

> > > > blacked out and came to with no car, and footprints on her >

> chest.. > > > clearly a traumatic incident - she left Africa (where

> the family > > > was) and refused to return, though my Father

refused

> to try to > find > > > work in Scotland. > > > > > > Essentially

from

> that point on, she had less and less to > blame... > > > there was

> less contact with my Father... eventually complete > > > divorce,

then

> he died later... and she was left alone, with > nothing > > > to

> explain her feelings...> > > > > > My brother lived with her for a

> while... but that was a sad tale > of > > > enmeshment (though he

has

> now escaped, and I've never had a > frank > > > conversation with

him

> about any of this..)> > > > > > ... so it all gradually started to

> shift to me.. Initially I > felt > > > like I was being a

supportive

> son and giving her a shoulder to > cry > > > on (aged 17), but

> eventually started to tell her she needed to > > start > > >

thinking

> more positively, and forgive the people she constantly > > > raged

> about..> > > > > > Of course the rest is obvious; I became more and

> more of a > target, > > > and I look like my Father did... now the

> examples of her > behaviour > > > ar every bit as extreme as others

> posted here.. I'm still > shocked > > at > > > the similarities,

the

> strategies used, the lack of logic...> > > > > > > > > I guess my

> point is... before all of that, can I still feel like > my > > >

> Mother was pretty much a normal person (she was always a high > > >

> functioning person) who built up coping mechanisms to deal with >

her

> > > > bitterness which 'blossomed' into BPD - > > > > > > Or was

she

> always this way, but that it was mainly hidden till > the > > >

last

> fifteen years or so..?> > > > > > Can I believe that she was

capable

> of Love, or do I essentially > > need > > > to reconcile myself

with

> the idea that she never loved me > because > > > she never could. ?

> >

> > > > > I know many of the people here feel that their nadas never

> loved > > > them... but I don't have those definite memories of

> neglect or > > > rejection... in many ways I think my mother fought

> hard against > the > > > same tendencies I feel now... but

somewhere

> she lost...> > > > > > I'd be greatful for any thoughts on this,

and

> again, I don't > want > > to > > > invalidate anyone who was

subject

> to BPD behaviour early on...> > >> >> > > > > > > >

> __________________________________________________>

[Guest guest]

It is true that BPD's are unable to accept responsibility or admit that

maybe they were wrong about something. If they admit they might be wrong, then

the world will see they are not perfect and they will protect themselves from

being 'found out' to the death.

The role of my fada has always been to take responsibility for nada's

actions. Presently, he's not doing that. She has no idea how to react. Not

once

has she ever had to deal with her own actions and bad behavior all by

herself. It's difficult to witness, but neither my fada or me can save her

this

time.

LL

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Guest guest]

I agree. My mother has never apologized to me for anything she has done. I

remember being a young child and believing she was perfect, although I knew deep

down she was far from it, because she told me she was.

To: WTOAdultChildren1@...: maureenscafe@...: Wed, 17

Oct 2007 21:45:16 -0700Subject: Re: Re: QUestion about

borderline and abandonment

Perhaps from the other side, when I myself was still doing that lots of times,

before I was in therapy, it felt like a reflex, the other perrson felt like a

hot stove. This is not to make excuses for what I did, but I honestly feel that

a person doing this cannot help it at the moment they're doing it.-- Only little

by little, did I learn to take responsibility and that is I think where bpd's

have real trouble. They cannot say: I do this, and I'm sorry. It has to do with

something in me that I cannot control. My mother would be a million times easier

to deal with, I feel, kf she could say that. Re: QUestion about borderline and

abandonmentYes! It's like a pre-emptive rejection -- " I'll reject you before you

have a chance to reject me. " Maybe they hope it will make you come running -- or

at least get a reaction from you that shows you " care " . Kind of like a couple

where one party breaks up, hoping that the other will come running, never

intending to REALLY break up. They just like the feeling they get when the other

person is desperate to get their affection back.-Kyla> >

>> > > So, I think I know what I feel the answer is, but the> whole > thing > >

> troubles me, and I'd be greatful for any different> > perspectives...> > > > >

> Before that, though, I just also want to> say that reading other > > > peoples

experiences has made me realise> that in many ways I had > it > > > easy...

there was never any> physical abuse... there were times > whan > > > my mother

was> supportive, and I've had to be physically seperate > > > from my> mother

for most of my adult life - so besides making > > > excuses,> perspective has

been easier, so in saying anything I > don't > > >> want to belittle or

invalidate anyone else's experience.> > > > > >> So... to get to the point..> >

> > > > Having started to deal with my> mother rather than continue the > same >

> > old pattern .... one of> the most uncomfortable features is that > I > > >

have to sift through> memories of my life, and see them from a > new > > >

perspective.> > >> > > > This helps to understand some really troubling memories

(such as> > my > > > mother threatening to leave my Dad when I was 12, then>

agreeing > to > > > stay, but only on certain conditions, including> that " me

and my > > > brother stop cuddling naked " - of course we> agreed, but silently >

I > > > still remember the shock and " but we> don't!! - what are we > doing > >

> wrong? we must be doing> *something* wrong??!! " and the shame > that > > >

followed - I can> trace the lack of closeness with my brother > now, > > > back

to that> point, and of course, that was the intention... > divide > > > and>

conquer..)> > > > > > But... where does it end... was everything my> mother ever

did > > > motivated by BPD ? - that just doesn't ring> true... there were > >

times > > > when it wasn't all bad or all> good..> > > > > > .. I do think my

mother's problems go back to> childhood... but I > > > think that we had such a

chaotic lifestyle> anyway (not from > BPD.. > > > just that we would move every

two> years.. we lived in Africa, > the > > > Far East, back in Scotland...>

never stable, but all for good > > > reasons, and there were plenty of> good

times and > opportunities... I > > > had a very happy childhood)>> > > > > > ...

so the chaos - and that my Father did cheat on her (and> of > > > course,

everything I'd taken for fact now needs to be re->> thought) > > > gave her a

focus.... she could blame circumstances for> how she > > felt..> > > > > > Then

when I was 12, she announced that> they were to be > divorced... > > > and then

followed about 15 years> of 'breaking up' - again.. more > > > chaos she could

blame..> > > > >> > In amongst that ... her car was stolen at gunpoint in

Africa.. > she> > > > blacked out and came to with no car, and footprints on her

>> chest.. > > > clearly a traumatic incident - she left Africa (where> the

family > > > was) and refused to return, though my Father refused> to try to >

find > > > work in Scotland. > > > > > > Essentially from> that point on, she

had less and less to > blame... > > > there was> less contact with my Father...

eventually complete > > > divorce, then> he died later... and she was left

alone, with > nothing > > > to> explain her feelings...> > > > > > My brother

lived with her for a> while... but that was a sad tale > of > > > enmeshment

(though he has> now escaped, and I've never had a > frank > > > conversation

with him> about any of this..)> > > > > > ... so it all gradually started to>

shift to me.. Initially I > felt > > > like I was being a supportive> son and

giving her a shoulder to > cry > > > on (aged 17), but> eventually started to

tell her she needed to > > start > > > thinking> more positively, and forgive

the people she constantly > > > raged> about..> > > > > > Of course the rest is

obvious; I became more and> more of a > target, > > > and I look like my Father

did... now the> examples of her > behaviour > > > ar every bit as extreme as

others> posted here.. I'm still > shocked > > at > > > the similarities, the>

strategies used, the lack of logic...> > > > > > > > > I guess my> point is...

before all of that, can I still feel like > my > > >> Mother was pretty much a

normal person (she was always a high > > >> functioning person) who built up

coping mechanisms to deal with > her> > > > bitterness which 'blossomed' into

BPD - > > > > > > Or was she> always this way, but that it was mainly hidden

till > the > > > last> fifteen years or so..?> > > > > > Can I believe that she

was capable> of Love, or do I essentially > > need > > > to reconcile myself

with> the idea that she never loved me > because > > > she never could. ?> >> >

> > > I know many of the people here feel that their nadas never> loved > > >

them... but I don't have those definite memories of> neglect or > > >

rejection... in many ways I think my mother fought> hard against > the > > >

same tendencies I feel now... but somewhere> she lost...> > > > > > I'd be

greatful for any thoughts on this, and> again, I don't > want > > to > > >

invalidate anyone who was subject> to BPD behaviour early on...> > >> >> > > > >

> > >> __________________________________________________>

[Guest guest]

Great post -- I am inspired by it.

-Kyla

>

> It is true that BPD's are unable to accept responsibility or admit

that

> maybe they were wrong about something. If they admit they might

be wrong, then

> the world will see they are not perfect and they will protect

themselves from

> being 'found out' to the death.

>

> The role of my fada has always been to take responsibility for

nada's

> actions. Presently, he's not doing that. She has no idea how to

react. Not once

> has she ever had to deal with her own actions and bad behavior

all by

> herself. It's difficult to witness, but neither my fada or me

can save her this

> time.

>

> LL

>

>

>

> ************************************** See what's new at

http://www.aol.com

>

>

>