Re: Coumadin / supplementation with vitamins

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/28/02 4:55:18 PM Pacific Standard Time,

madisonn99@... writes:

<< Has anyone tried the Vitamin E / Coumadin

combination and was successful in reducing Coumadin?? >>

,

I am currently taking only 2.5 m.g. of Coumadin daily since I changed my diet

to include more peanut butter (high in vitamin E) and fish oil in the form of

salmon. In fact, all of my protein requirement now comes from these two

foods since I eat no dairy products. I also take 400 I.U. of vitamin E daily

(the natural, more expensive alpha tocopheral type.) This diet change is the

only reason I can see for the change in my Coumadin requirements. I started

out on 5 m.g. of Coumadin daily three years ago. I also limit the green

vegetables, take two tablespoons of molasses every day for potassium,

magnesium, calcium, etc., and eat a lot of whole grains. My Protime test

this afternoon showed my INR to be 2.4, which my cardiologist's nurse

proclaimed to be " perfect. " During the last three weeks I had cut my

Coumadin dose by 2.5 m.g. weekly on doctor's orders because my primary care

physician was concerned that my INR three weeks ago was 3.46, and it had been

running at that level for the past three months. There probably is no

connection, but I have also had an unusually long run of sinus rhythm for the

past two weeks concurrently with the lowered Coumadin dose..

I think you should check with your doctor again if you decide to change your

diet, and probably have a Protime test soon after making any changes. Good

luck.

in sinus in Seattle

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Thanks so much for sharing this information. I am willing to try

anything at this point. Peanut butter is one of my favorite foods,

because of the calories I haven't had too much of it recently, but I

will change that. To have Salmon on a regular basis will be a bit

more difficult. In addition I will switch my Vit E to the one you

recommended, I didn't realise that could make a difference also. Out

of curiosity, are you avoiding meats now completely? Even chicken?

Anything I do will be discussed with my doc. who so far has been

quite cooperative.

Again, your advise has been greatly appreciated.

/

> In a message dated 3/28/02 4:55:18 PM Pacific Standard Time,

> madisonn99@A... writes:

>

> << Has anyone tried the Vitamin E / Coumadin

> combination and was successful in reducing Coumadin?? >>

> ,

> I am currently taking only 2.5 m.g. of Coumadin daily since I

changed my diet

> to include more peanut butter (high in vitamin E) and fish oil in

the form of

> salmon. In fact, all of my protein requirement now comes from

these two

> foods since I eat no dairy products. I also take 400 I.U. of

vitamin E daily

> (the natural, more expensive alpha tocopheral type.) This diet

change is the

> only reason I can see for the change in my Coumadin requirements.

I started

> out on 5 m.g. of Coumadin daily three years ago. I also limit the

green

> vegetables, take two tablespoons of molasses every day for

potassium,

> magnesium, calcium, etc., and eat a lot of whole grains. My

Protime test

> this afternoon showed my INR to be 2.4, which my cardiologist's

nurse

> proclaimed to be " perfect. " During the last three weeks I had cut

my

> Coumadin dose by 2.5 m.g. weekly on doctor's orders because my

primary care

> physician was concerned that my INR three weeks ago was 3.46, and

it had been

> running at that level for the past three months. There probably is

no

> connection, but I have also had an unusually long run of sinus

rhythm for the

> past two weeks concurrently with the lowered Coumadin dose..

>

> I think you should check with your doctor again if you decide to

change your

> diet, and probably have a Protime test soon after making any

changes. Good

> luck.

> in sinus in Seattle

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/31/2002 1:20:09 PM Pacific Standard Time,

madisonn99@... writes:

<< Salmon, Sorry, I guess I did not make myself clear. I can get

farm raised Salmon in the local store, and occasionally wild Salmon.

My problem is acquiring a taste for it. Maybe a good recipe would

help? >>

Hi, ,

I am fortunate that I love the taste of salmon in just about any condition.

However, as Fran mentioned, the farm raised variety does not agree with me.

I tried it once and had monumental stomach difficulties which did not

immediately result in afib, however. (The same problem occurs with chicken

unless I eat free range chicken.) I eat only wild salmon fresh or the canned

variety which is Alaskan sockeye and, therefore, presumably wild. I think

one of the main advantages of salmon is its anti-inflammatory properties

which may help with preventing afib and also autoimmune disorders. I

originally started eating more of it because it agrees with my supersensitive

stomach and because I thought that it might help with the Inflammation

generated by the surge of autoimmune responses which I experienced after I

discontinued dairy products. I am feeling generally so much better now

after experiencing a really low ebb for the last four months. I don't know

for certain if the salmon is contributing to my general improvement, but I

figure it can't hurt.

Perhaps you could try salmon in a salmon loaf or salmon patties or cakes,

made similarly to meat loaf or meatballs. Or you might try drowning it in a

sauce of tomatoes, onions, green pepper, etc. These methods could disguise

the taste if you use lots of onion, tomato, or green pepper. (Ooops! I

don't know what that green pepper would do to your INR.) Those are recipes

with which I grew up because my mother often fixed salmon in those ways.

However, today I prefer my salmon straight with no disguises. If you are

interested and need more details, I could probably dredge up from my memory

bank the approximate recipes for my mother's salmon dishes. Or maybe you

want to just go with the other types of fish since you already like those.

Also, I was thinking about your concern with the calories in peanut butter.

If you substitute the peanut butter for some other fat-containing food that

you would normally eat, there shouldn't be a problem with the calories. In

my case, I have substituted peanut butter for cheese since I quit dairy

products. Undoubtedly peanut butter is much healthier for me than that

cheese, which I dearly loved, however. If you eat the peanut butter in

addition to your normal diet, you might have a problem with weight gain,

depending on your metabolism.

Good luck and let me know if you want more " salmon tips. "

in sinus in Seattle

[Guest guest]

>

> Also, I was thinking about your concern with the calories in peanut

butter.

> If you substitute the peanut butter for some other fat-containing

food that

> you would normally eat, there shouldn't be a problem with the

calories. In

> my case, I have substituted peanut butter for cheese since I quit

dairy

> products. Undoubtedly peanut butter is much healthier for me than

that

> cheese, which I dearly loved, however. If you eat the peanut

butter in

> addition to your normal diet, you might have a problem with weight

gain,

> depending on your metabolism.

>

> Good luck and let me know if you want more " salmon tips. "

> in sinus in Seattle

I was just wondering if you had tried tahini (sesame seed paste) as a

substitute for peanut butter. I bought some for the first time last

week and was pleasantly surprised. Its best to mix it with something

like advocado or olives. It has a ring of peanut butter to it. I

don't know about the calories though.

Fran

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/1/2002 6:08:54 PM Pacific Standard Time,

madisonn99@... writes:

<< Thanks for the other

suggestions posted on this board.

I am now working on having fish at least 5 times / week (between

Salmon, Tuna, Sardines and others) Salmon being the most desiralbe

according to my research. Plus my 1 clove of garlic sofar, and

whatever else I can find that is blood thinning.

My next p/t test is next week, hope the results will be better by

then. >>

,

All of the fish you mentioned are high in omega 3, the heart healthy oil, but

the tuna should be Albacore, I've read. As I recall, my mother made the

salmon patties with the canned salmon, either cracker meal or cooked, finely

diced potatoes (healthier than the cracker meal), eggs (beaten) sufficient to

hold the mixture together like meat loaf, onions (which highly disagree with

me now), celery, sometimes green pepper, pepper, and some salt to taste or

tolerance. In my case I would skip the salt. All vegetables were finely

minced. You could probably experiment with other herbs such as dill weed?

She sauteed the patties in oil in a skillet and served with homemade

vegetable clam chowder. (I think she may have rolled the patties in flour

before sauteing.) Mmmm...I'm getting hungry. I don't think clams have any

omega 3, so I would skip the clam chowder. Clams may be loaded with vitamin

K, for all I know. I'm just getting carried away here with memories. I

think I would choose olive oil, another heart healthy oil, for the saute',

although I don't remember what she used.for oil.

Another food you might try is ginger. I haven't tried it myself because I'm

already down to a 2.5 daily Coumadin dose with my current diet. I'm not

really looking to go any lower because I don't want to cut Coumadin out

completely. I feel more secure in stroke protection when I am taking at

least some Coumadin. Anyway, when I thought of using ginger tea once before,

a number of people here gave me references which indicated that ginger is a

blood thinner.

If you're taking 5 m.g. of Coumadin daily, I think I would ease into all

these supplements to find out gradually what is happening with your INR. You

don't want to suddenly find in a week that you have an INR of 5.0 or higher!

Good luck,

in sinus in Seattle

(I'm so happy that this is my 17th day of sinus. I don't know what's going

on, but I'll enjoy it while it lasts. Since I was in afib about 50 percent

of the time in January and February, I had thought that I was headed for

permanent afib for sure. During the past month of March, I was in afib only

about 3 days! Hooray! I guess I'm finally recovering from the vasovagal

stimulation of all those stomach tests.)

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Well, I am back on my 5 mg Coumadin daily - plus 200 IU Vitamin E -

as approved by my doc. The Vitamin E comes from a healthstore this

time - not much help there unfortunatly, I ended up buying 2 brands,

one from Solgar " Vitamin E as D-Alpha Tocopherol, plus D-Beta

Tocopherol, D-Delta Toc..., and D Gamma Toc ... " the other from

Solaray " Vitamin E exclusively derived from 100% natural unesterified

D-Alpha Toc ..., in a base mixed with toc... of d-beta, d-gamma, and

d-delta " . Is this what you are taking, or is your Vitamin E still

different from these?

Salmon: Fresh wild Salmon is not that accessible to me, however I

can get the canned version and will try it mixed with onions and

peppers, or tomatoes as you suggested. I would also be interested in

a Salmon patty, if you can " dig up " the recipe. Thanks for the other

suggestions posted on this board.

I am now working on having fish at least 5 times / week (between

Salmon, Tuna, Sardines and others) Salmon being the most desiralbe

according to my research. Plus my 1 clove of garlic sofar, and

whatever else I can find that is blood thinning.

My next p/t test is next week, hope the results will be better by

then.

For all your help, thanks.

/

Hi, ,

> I am fortunate that I love the taste of salmon in just about any

condition.

> However, as Fran mentioned, the farm raised variety does not agree

with me.

> I tried it once and had monumental stomach difficulties which did

not

> immediately result in afib, however. (The same problem occurs with

chicken

> unless I eat free range chicken.) I eat only wild salmon fresh or

the canned

> variety which is Alaskan sockeye and, therefore, presumably wild.

I think

> one of the main advantages of salmon is its anti-inflammatory

properties

> which may help with preventing afib and also autoimmune disorders.

I

> originally started eating more of it because it agrees with my

supersensitive

> stomach and because I thought that it might help with the

Inflammation

> generated by the surge of autoimmune responses which I experienced

after I

> discontinued dairy products. I am feeling generally so much

better now

> after experiencing a really low ebb for the last four months. I

don't know

> for certain if the salmon is contributing to my general

improvement, but I

> figure it can't hurt.

>

> Perhaps you could try salmon in a salmon loaf or salmon patties or

cakes,

> made similarly to meat loaf or meatballs. Or you might try

drowning it in a

> sauce of tomatoes, onions, green pepper, etc. These methods could

disguise

> the taste if you use lots of onion, tomato, or green pepper.

(Ooops! I

> don't know what that green pepper would do to your INR.) Those are

recipes

> with which I grew up because my mother often fixed salmon in those

ways.

> However, today I prefer my salmon straight with no disguises. If

you are

> interested and need more details, I could probably dredge up from

my memory

> bank the approximate recipes for my mother's salmon dishes. Or

maybe you

> want to just go with the other types of fish since you already like

those.

>

> Also, I was thinking about your concern with the calories in peanut

butter.

> If you substitute the peanut butter for some other fat-containing

food that

> you would normally eat, there shouldn't be a problem with the

calories. In

> my case, I have substituted peanut butter for cheese since I quit

dairy

> products. Undoubtedly peanut butter is much healthier for me than

that

> cheese, which I dearly loved, however. If you eat the peanut

butter in

> addition to your normal diet, you might have a problem with weight

gain,

> depending on your metabolism.

>

> Good luck and let me know if you want more " salmon tips. "

> in sinus in Seattle

[Guest guest]

To add a bit of variety to your fish five times a week have you

thought about herring or mackerel. They are a really good oily fish

and delicious smoked. I don't know if you get them fresh where you

are, but you can get them in cans too.

Fran

> Hi, ,

> > I am fortunate that I love the taste of salmon in just about any

> condition.

> > However, as Fran mentioned, the farm raised variety does not

agree

> with me.

> > I tried it once and had monumental stomach difficulties which did

> not

> > immediately result in afib, however. (The same problem occurs

with

> chicken

> > unless I eat free range chicken.) I eat only wild salmon fresh

or

> the canned

> > variety which is Alaskan sockeye and, therefore, presumably

wild.

> I think

> > one of the main advantages of salmon is its anti-inflammatory

> properties

> > which may help with preventing afib and also autoimmune

disorders.

> I

> > originally started eating more of it because it agrees with my

> supersensitive

> > stomach and because I thought that it might help with the

> Inflammation

> > generated by the surge of autoimmune responses which I

experienced

> after I

> > discontinued dairy products. I am feeling generally so much

> better now

> > after experiencing a really low ebb for the last four months. I

> don't know

> > for certain if the salmon is contributing to my general

> improvement, but I

> > figure it can't hurt.

> >

> > Perhaps you could try salmon in a salmon loaf or salmon patties

or

> cakes,

> > made similarly to meat loaf or meatballs. Or you might try

> drowning it in a

> > sauce of tomatoes, onions, green pepper, etc. These methods

could

> disguise

> > the taste if you use lots of onion, tomato, or green pepper.

> (Ooops! I

> > don't know what that green pepper would do to your INR.) Those

are

> recipes

> > with which I grew up because my mother often fixed salmon in

those

> ways.

> > However, today I prefer my salmon straight with no disguises. If

> you are

> > interested and need more details, I could probably dredge up from

> my memory

> > bank the approximate recipes for my mother's salmon dishes. Or

> maybe you

> > want to just go with the other types of fish since you already

like

> those.

> >

> > Also, I was thinking about your concern with the calories in

peanut

> butter.

> > If you substitute the peanut butter for some other fat-containing

> food that

> > you would normally eat, there shouldn't be a problem with the

> calories. In

> > my case, I have substituted peanut butter for cheese since I quit

> dairy

> > products. Undoubtedly peanut butter is much healthier for me

than

> that

> > cheese, which I dearly loved, however. If you eat the peanut

> butter in

> > addition to your normal diet, you might have a problem with

weight

> gain,

> > depending on your metabolism.

> >

> > Good luck and let me know if you want more " salmon tips. "

> > in sinus in Seattle

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Congratulations for achieving another long period in Sinus, hope that

part of it can be attributed to your diet. (We all want to have at

least some control over what is happening to us).

I like your recipe for Salmon patties and will give it a try.

Combining Salmon with potatoes, eggs, and vegies sounds quite

interesting and tasty. Thanks for pointing out " Albacore " , luckily

that's what I have and olive oil is my staple oil.

I seem to be one of the few experiencing side effects with Coumadin,

and all I want to do right now, is get the dosage down. My P/T test

next week will give me an idea which way I am going. Ginger is

something else I will take a look at but maybe after my test

results. Right now I am only taking 200 iU of the new Vit E, and I

do hope that my INR will raise enough for the doc. to lower Coumadin.

Thanks also for pointing out other beneficial fish as mentioned on

this board. I am somewhat of a novice as far as prepartion of fish

is concerned, and the number of fish I have tried so far is quite

limited.

/

> In a message dated 4/1/2002 6:08:54 PM Pacific Standard Time,

> ,

> All of the fish you mentioned are high in omega 3, the heart

healthy oil, but

> the tuna should be Albacore, I've read. As I recall, my mother

made the

> salmon patties with the canned salmon, either cracker meal or

cooked, finely

> diced potatoes (healthier than the cracker meal), eggs (beaten)

sufficient to

> hold the mixture together like meat loaf, onions (which highly

disagree with

> me now), celery, sometimes green pepper, pepper, and some salt to

taste or

> tolerance. In my case I would skip the salt. All vegetables were

finely

> minced. You could probably experiment with other herbs such as

dill weed?

> She sauteed the patties in oil in a skillet and served with

homemade

> vegetable clam chowder. (I think she may have rolled the patties

in flour

> before sauteing.) Mmmm...I'm getting hungry. I don't think clams

have any

> omega 3, so I would skip the clam chowder. Clams may be loaded

with vitamin

> K, for all I know. I'm just getting carried away here with

memories. I

> think I would choose olive oil, another heart healthy oil, for the

saute',

> although I don't remember what she used.for oil.

>

> Another food you might try is ginger. I haven't tried it myself

because I'm

> already down to a 2.5 daily Coumadin dose with my current diet.

I'm not

> really looking to go any lower because I don't want to cut Coumadin

out

> completely. I feel more secure in stroke protection when I am

taking at

> least some Coumadin. Anyway, when I thought of using ginger tea

once before,

> a number of people here gave me references which indicated that

ginger is a

> blood thinner.

>

> If you're taking 5 m.g. of Coumadin daily, I think I would ease

into all

> these supplements to find out gradually what is happening with your

INR. You

> don't want to suddenly find in a week that you have an INR of 5.0

or higher!

>

> Good luck,

> in sinus in Seattle

> (I'm so happy that this is my 17th day of sinus. I don't know

what's going

> on, but I'll enjoy it while it lasts. Since I was in afib about 50

percent

> of the time in January and February, I had thought that I was

headed for

> permanent afib for sure. During the past month of March, I was in

afib only

> about 3 days! Hooray! I guess I'm finally recovering from the

vasovagal

> stimulation of all those stomach tests.)

[Guest guest]

Hi,

I consider this board a resource with much valuable information,

offering support and giving us a chance to compare notes and ideas.

If our docs tell us that each patient reacts differently, that alone

reiterates the need to be cautious and further discuss with a " health

care professional " changes we plan to make. My docs, by now, are

used to having to answer a list of questions I prepare, and there are

instances where they cannot provide an answer or the answer is not

satisfying. So I have to look for answers elsewhere.

Back to my subject - Last week I was able to include 5 fish meals,

2 x canned Tuna, Sardines, Flounder, and Sole. Probalby not the best

of the available fish for Afibbers. Omega 3 oils provide anti-

inflammatory properties and Salmon heads that list (wild Salmon

coming from Alaska and some other Westcoast States offer the most

nutritional value, as was mentioned on this board). This week I will

include Salmon in meals (, can I freeze any leftover Salmon

patties?)

We have been discussing Mercury on this board. What about Mercury in

fish we eat??

Also, I did some research regarding Vitamin E and came accross an

article stating that our body can absorb 2 x as much natural Vit. E

as synthetic.

/

> All of the fish you mentioned are high in omega 3, the heart

healthy oil, but

> the tuna should be Albacore, I've read. As I recall, my mother

made the

> salmon patties with the canned salmon, either cracker meal or

cooked, finely

> diced potatoes (healthier than the cracker meal), eggs (beaten)

sufficient to

> hold the mixture together like meat loaf, onions (which highly

disagree with

> me now), celery, sometimes green pepper, pepper, and some salt to

taste or

> tolerance. In my case I would skip the salt. All vegetables were

finely

> minced. You could probably experiment with other herbs such as

dill weed?

> She sauteed the patties in oil in a skillet and served with

homemade

> vegetable clam chowder. (I think she may have rolled the patties

in flour

> before sauteing.) Mmmm...I'm getting hungry. I don't think clams

have any

> omega 3, so I would skip the clam chowder. Clams may be loaded

with vitamin

> K, for all I know. I'm just getting carried away here with

memories. I

> think I would choose olive oil, another heart healthy oil, for the

saute',

> although I don't remember what she used.for oil.

>

> Another food you might try is ginger. I haven't tried it myself

because I'm

> already down to a 2.5 daily Coumadin dose with my current diet.

I'm not

> really looking to go any lower because I don't want to cut Coumadin

out

> completely. I feel more secure in stroke protection when I am

taking at

> least some Coumadin. Anyway, when I thought of using ginger tea

once before,

> a number of people here gave me references which indicated that

ginger is a

> blood thinner.

>

> If you're taking 5 m.g. of Coumadin daily, I think I would ease

into all

> these supplements to find out gradually what is happening with your

INR. You

> don't want to suddenly find in a week that you have an INR of 5.0

or higher!

>

> Good luck,

> in sinus in Seattle

> (I'm so happy that this is my 17th day of sinus. I don't know

what's going

> on, but I'll enjoy it while it lasts. Since I was in afib about 50

percent

> of the time in January and February, I had thought that I was

headed for

> permanent afib for sure. During the past month of March, I was in

afib only

> about 3 days! Hooray! I guess I'm finally recovering from the

vasovagal

> stimulation of all those stomach tests.)

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/10/2002 6:09:00 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

madisonn99@... writes:

<< Does anyone know how long it takes for

the P/t to reflect a change in diet? Is one week enough?

Researching other blood thinners I came accross grapefruit /

grapefruit juice. Has anyone experimented with grapefruit, does it

affect other meds such as Lanoxin or Cardizem?

I had my first taste of canned Salmon today. It's not so bad. I

should be able to include it in a few of my meals. >>

,

When a change is made in my Coumadin level, my doctors usually ask me to have

a Protime test in two or three weeks because one week is not sufficient to

see results. In the beginning tests are given every few days because the

effect of the Coumadin is unknown, but after you have taken it for a while,

you tend to stabilize at a certain level. At least that has been my

experience. I have read that grapefruit can interact with certain meds, so I

would check with your doctor or pharmacist before you try that. One thing I

do know for certain: one tablespoon of grapefruit juice would put me in afib

right now. That is one of the worst triggers for me. However, because

triggers are very individual, it may work for you, but I would certainly ease

into it, trying a very small amount at first. Have you looked into the

ginger? That is a known stomach remedy and blood thinner which reduces

inflammation and, therefore, would not stir up afib. Regarding the salmon, I

would advise you to try it over a period of time and not give up on it until

you've had a chance to see the effects. My afib situation has certainly

improved since I have been eating it; but, of course, I can't say for certain

that the salmon is the cause of my good fortune. It certainly hasn't hurt,

though. Even if you aren't that crazy about the taste, you could regard it

as " medicine. " My attitude toward food is shifting in that direction

because controlling afib is more important to me than enjoying a variety of

foods.

Good luck,

in sinus in Seattle (Day 26!)

[Guest guest]

Hi,

after one week with 5 fish meals, and daily 1 clove of garlic, 200 iU

Vit. E, and limited veggies (Coumadin 5 mg) I still came in slightly

below an INR reading of 2. Does anyone know how long it takes for

the P/t to reflect a change in diet? Is one week enough?

Researching other blood thinners I came accross grapefruit /

grapefruit juice. Has anyone experimented with grapefruit, does it

affect other meds such as Lanoxin or Cardizem?

I had my first taste of canned Salmon today. It's not so bad. I

should be able to include it in a few of my meals.

/

>

>

>

>

> > All of the fish you mentioned are high in omega 3, the heart

> healthy oil, but

> > the tuna should be Albacore, I've read. As I recall, my mother

> made the

> > salmon patties with the canned salmon, either cracker meal or

> cooked, finely

> > diced potatoes (healthier than the cracker meal), eggs (beaten)

> sufficient to

> > hold the mixture together like meat loaf, onions (which highly

> disagree with

> > me now), celery, sometimes green pepper, pepper, and some salt to

> taste or

> > tolerance. In my case I would skip the salt. All vegetables

were

> finely

> > minced. You could probably experiment with other herbs such as

> dill weed?

> > She sauteed the patties in oil in a skillet and served with

> homemade

> > vegetable clam chowder. (I think she may have rolled the patties

> in flour

> > before sauteing.) Mmmm...I'm getting hungry. I don't think

clams

> have any

> > omega 3, so I would skip the clam chowder. Clams may be loaded

> with vitamin

> > K, for all I know. I'm just getting carried away here with

> memories. I

> > think I would choose olive oil, another heart healthy oil, for

the

> saute',

> > although I don't remember what she used.for oil.

> >

> > Another food you might try is ginger. I haven't tried it myself

> because I'm

> > already down to a 2.5 daily Coumadin dose with my current diet.

> I'm not

> > really looking to go any lower because I don't want to cut

Coumadin

> out

> > completely. I feel more secure in stroke protection when I am

> taking at

> > least some Coumadin. Anyway, when I thought of using ginger tea

> once before,

> > a number of people here gave me references which indicated that

> ginger is a

> > blood thinner.

> >

> > If you're taking 5 m.g. of Coumadin daily, I think I would ease

> into all

> > these supplements to find out gradually what is happening with

your

> INR. You

> > don't want to suddenly find in a week that you have an INR of 5.0

> or higher!

> >

> > Good luck,

> > in sinus in Seattle

> > (I'm so happy that this is my 17th day of sinus. I don't know

> what's going

> > on, but I'll enjoy it while it lasts. Since I was in afib about

50

> percent

> > of the time in January and February, I had thought that I was

> headed for

> > permanent afib for sure. During the past month of March, I was

in

> afib only

> > about 3 days! Hooray! I guess I'm finally recovering from the

> vasovagal

> > stimulation of all those stomach tests.)

[Guest guest]

GUys not too much about the INR levels but GRAPEFRUIT. Be very careful as

Grapefruit has adverse effect with certain drugs.

correct me if I am wrong but I know that Verapamil Dofetilde are a big no

no also I seem to remember something about Amiodarone.

Just my 2c worth.or 2p here in the UK what what that be in Ireland with the Euro

now.

john C

> << Does anyone know how long it takes for

> the P/t to reflect a change in diet? Is one week enough?

> Researching other blood thinners I came accross grapefruit /

> grapefruit juice. Has anyone experimented with grapefruit, does it

> affect other meds such as Lanoxin or Cardizem?

> I had my first taste of canned Salmon today. It's not so bad. I

> should be able to include it in a few of my meals. >>

>

> ,

> When a change is made in my Coumadin level, my doctors usually ask me to have

> a Protime test in two or three weeks because one week is not sufficient to

> see results. In the beginning tests are given every few days because the

> effect of the Coumadin is unknown, but after you have taken it for a while,

> you tend to stabilize at a certain level. At least that has been my

> experience. I have read that grapefruit can interact with certain meds, so I

> would check with your doctor or pharmacist before you try that. One thing I

> do know for certain: one tablespoon of grapefruit juice would put me in afib

> right now. That is one of the worst triggers for me. However, because

> triggers are very individual, it may work for you, but I would certainly ease

> into it, trying a very small amount at first. Have you looked into the

> ginger? That is a known stomach remedy and blood thinner which reduces

> inflammation and, therefore, would not stir up afib. Regarding the salmon, I

> would advise you to try it over a period of time and not give up on it until

> you've had a chance to see the effects. My afib situation has certainly

> improved since I have been eating it; but, of course, I can't say for certain

> that the salmon is the cause of my good fortune. It certainly hasn't hurt,

> though. Even if you aren't that crazy about the taste, you could regard it

> as " medicine. " My attitude toward food is shifting in that direction

> because controlling afib is more important to me than enjoying a variety of

> foods.

> Good luck,

> in sinus in Seattle (Day 26!)

>

>

**********************************************************************

This message may contain information which is confidential or privileged.

If you are not the intended recipient, please advise the sender immediately

by reply e-mail and delete this message and any attachments

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[Guest guest]

on Thu, 11 Apr 2002 at 14:56:19, Codling,

wrote :

>GUys not too much about the INR levels but GRAPEFRUIT. Be very careful as

>Grapefruit has adverse effect with certain drugs.

>

> correct me if I am wrong but I know that Verapamil Dofetilde are a big no

no

>also I seem to remember something about Amiodarone.

's right - grapefruit is a generic problem with many drugs. This is

because it uses up a considerable proportion of the

processing/elimination capacity of the ?kidneys? (I think it is -

someone put me right) and thereby interferes with the elimination of the

drug, leading to often much higher levels of the drug in the blood.

It's basically a no-no with many many drugs. Not sure about warfarin,

though.

Best of health to all,

Vicky

London, UK, 1954 model

http://www.vagalafibportal.fsnet.co.uk/

" We don't have a hopeless end; we have an endless hope "

- anon (?) via Ellen

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------\

-------------

[Guest guest]

" " " Has anyone experimented with grapefruit, " " "

I've always had an aversion to grapefruit but am going to try it as I'm off

all meds now. I know that it can interact with many drugs and supplements.

I'll do a search for beta blockers etc. I never touched it as it did

interact with the anticonvulsants I was on (Tegretol).

Fran

Re: Re: Coumadin / supplementation with vitamins

> In a message dated 4/10/2002 6:09:00 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

> madisonn99@... writes:

>

> << Does anyone know how long it takes for

> the P/t to reflect a change in diet? Is one week enough?

> Researching other blood thinners I came accross grapefruit /

> grapefruit juice. Has anyone experimented with grapefruit, does it

> affect other meds such as Lanoxin or Cardizem?

> I had my first taste of canned Salmon today. It's not so bad. I

> should be able to include it in a few of my meals. >>

>

> ,

> When a change is made in my Coumadin level, my doctors usually ask me to

have

> a Protime test in two or three weeks because one week is not sufficient to

> see results. In the beginning tests are given every few days because the

> effect of the Coumadin is unknown, but after you have taken it for a

while,

> you tend to stabilize at a certain level. At least that has been my

> experience. I have read that grapefruit can interact with certain meds,

so I

> would check with your doctor or pharmacist before you try that. One thing

I

> do know for certain: one tablespoon of grapefruit juice would put me in

afib

> right now. That is one of the worst triggers for me. However, because

> triggers are very individual, it may work for you, but I would certainly

ease

> into it, trying a very small amount at first. Have you looked into the

> ginger? That is a known stomach remedy and blood thinner which reduces

> inflammation and, therefore, would not stir up afib. Regarding the

salmon, I

> would advise you to try it over a period of time and not give up on it

until

> you've had a chance to see the effects. My afib situation has certainly

> improved since I have been eating it; but, of course, I can't say for

certain

> that the salmon is the cause of my good fortune. It certainly hasn't

hurt,

> though. Even if you aren't that crazy about the taste, you could regard

it

> as " medicine. " My attitude toward food is shifting in that direction

> because controlling afib is more important to me than enjoying a variety

of

> foods.

> Good luck,

> in sinus in Seattle (Day 26!)

>

>

> Web Page - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AFIBsupport

> FAQ -

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AFIBsupport/files/Administrative/faq.htm

> For more information: http://www.dialsolutions.com/af

> Unsubscribe: AFIBsupport-unsubscribe

> List owner: AFIBsupport-owner

> For help on how to use the group, including how to drive it via email,

> send a blank email to AFIBsupport-help

>

> Nothing in this message should be considered as medical advice, or should

be acted upon without consultation with one's physician.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi,

Grapefruit - thanks for the warning. Checked with my pharmacist and

was told that with some heart medications this combination would be

dangerous - what I am taking though should not be affected.

However,I do recollect (how easily one forgets) that my stomach has

some problems with accepting it. So it is not a good choice for me.

Orange juice also has a somewhat thinning effect, will go with that

instead and have it diluted.

On my quest to lowering Coumadin I am raising my natural Vit. E now

to 300 iU daily, have Salmon 2x this week - and another P/T test

lateron. (that will make it 2 weeks on my changed eating schedule).

Researching some of the other fish: Cod, Sole, etc. although they are

good protein choices, they do not offer the same heart benefits as

more oily fish.

Ginger - thanks for reminding me. Any suggestions how to incoporate

it into my diet (I am not really a tea drinker)?

Any other ideas?

/

> ,

> When a change is made in my Coumadin level, my doctors usually ask

me to have

> a Protime test in two or three weeks because one week is not

sufficient to

> see results. In the beginning tests are given every few days

because the

> effect of the Coumadin is unknown, but after you have taken it for

a while,

> you tend to stabilize at a certain level. At least that has been

my

> experience. I have read that grapefruit can interact with certain

meds, so I

> would check with your doctor or pharmacist before you try that.

One thing I

> do know for certain: one tablespoon of grapefruit juice would put

me in afib

> right now. That is one of the worst triggers for me. However,

because

> triggers are very individual, it may work for you, but I would

certainly ease

> into it, trying a very small amount at first. Have you looked into

the

> ginger? That is a known stomach remedy and blood thinner which

reduces

> inflammation and, therefore, would not stir up afib. Regarding the

salmon, I

> would advise you to try it over a period of time and not give up on

it until

> you've had a chance to see the effects. My afib situation has

certainly

> improved since I have been eating it; but, of course, I can't say

for certain

> that the salmon is the cause of my good fortune. It certainly

hasn't hurt,

> though. Even if you aren't that crazy about the taste, you could

regard it

> as " medicine. " My attitude toward food is shifting in that

direction

> because controlling afib is more important to me than enjoying a

variety of

> foods.

> Good luck,

> in sinus in Seattle (Day 26!)

[Guest guest]

<<Ginger - thanks for reminding me. Any suggestions how to incoporate

it into my diet (I am not really a tea drinker)?

Any other ideas?

/>>

http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/cgi-bin/nut_search.pl

is a great site to find out what foods contain, not quite the right way round

if you want to find food high in Vitamin E but at least it's a place to double

check the numbers.

--

D

[Guest guest]

Ginger is great in stir fries. I usually start with some olive oil, add a

couple of cloves of garlic, some cut up root ginger, lemon grass etc. This

makes a lovely flavour to quick fry veggies and noodles in. You could also

add it to some soups. Chicken (organic) lemon and ginger goes well. So does

beef and ginger. If you were feeling really experimental you could try

making ginger beer (the non alcoholic kind). My mum used to do this. I could

try to get the recipe if you wanted. Come to think of it I might like to try

this myself too.

Another way that I just thought of is crystalised ginger. It is very sweet

but must have the goodness of ginger in it. As I don't eat any sweets or

anything a peice of this once in a while should be ok.

Fran

Re: Coumadin / supplementation with vitamins

> Hi,

> Grapefruit - thanks for the warning. Checked with my pharmacist and

> was told that with some heart medications this combination would be

> dangerous - what I am taking though should not be affected.

> However,I do recollect (how easily one forgets) that my stomach has

> some problems with accepting it. So it is not a good choice for me.

> Orange juice also has a somewhat thinning effect, will go with that

> instead and have it diluted.

> On my quest to lowering Coumadin I am raising my natural Vit. E now

> to 300 iU daily, have Salmon 2x this week - and another P/T test

> lateron. (that will make it 2 weeks on my changed eating schedule).

> Researching some of the other fish: Cod, Sole, etc. although they are

> good protein choices, they do not offer the same heart benefits as

> more oily fish.

> Ginger - thanks for reminding me. Any suggestions how to incoporate

> it into my diet (I am not really a tea drinker)?

> Any other ideas?

> /

>

>

>

>

>

>

> > ,

> > When a change is made in my Coumadin level, my doctors usually ask

> me to have

> > a Protime test in two or three weeks because one week is not

> sufficient to

> > see results. In the beginning tests are given every few days

> because the

> > effect of the Coumadin is unknown, but after you have taken it for

> a while,

> > you tend to stabilize at a certain level. At least that has been

> my

> > experience. I have read that grapefruit can interact with certain

> meds, so I

> > would check with your doctor or pharmacist before you try that.

> One thing I

> > do know for certain: one tablespoon of grapefruit juice would put

> me in afib

> > right now. That is one of the worst triggers for me. However,

> because

> > triggers are very individual, it may work for you, but I would

> certainly ease

> > into it, trying a very small amount at first. Have you looked into

> the

> > ginger? That is a known stomach remedy and blood thinner which

> reduces

> > inflammation and, therefore, would not stir up afib. Regarding the

> salmon, I

> > would advise you to try it over a period of time and not give up on

> it until

> > you've had a chance to see the effects. My afib situation has

> certainly

> > improved since I have been eating it; but, of course, I can't say

> for certain

> > that the salmon is the cause of my good fortune. It certainly

> hasn't hurt,

> > though. Even if you aren't that crazy about the taste, you could

> regard it

> > as " medicine. " My attitude toward food is shifting in that

> direction

> > because controlling afib is more important to me than enjoying a

> variety of

> > foods.

> > Good luck,

> > in sinus in Seattle (Day 26!)

>

>

>

> Web Page - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AFIBsupport

> FAQ -

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AFIBsupport/files/Administrative/faq.htm

> For more information: http://www.dialsolutions.com/af

> Unsubscribe: AFIBsupport-unsubscribe

> List owner: AFIBsupport-owner

> For help on how to use the group, including how to drive it via email,

> send a blank email to AFIBsupport-help

>

> Nothing in this message should be considered as medical advice, or should

be acted upon without consultation with one's physician.

>

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/13/2002 1:37:51 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

madisonn99@... writes:

<< Ginger - thanks for reminding me. Any suggestions how to incoporate

it into my diet (I am not really a tea drinker)?

Any other ideas? >>

,

Fran gave you some excellent ideas, especially the stir fry. Ginger is a

natural in Chinese or Thai style food. I never actually have tried ginger

very much myself because I was made aware of its blood thinning properties by

people in this group, and I was afraid to combine it with Coumadin,

especially since my INR was then running around 3.0. At the time I was

considering it for its anti-inflammatory properties because I was having much

trouble with aches and pains, which Angus had predicted on this board would

happen due to immune system problems after I gave up dairy products. It had

been his experience after giving up dairy. That achy phase only lasted for a

short while, and I stopped thinking of ginger.

However, I can pass along to you the URL for a Website which I found when I

was researching ginger: http://nj.essortment.com/benefitsofging_rwoq.htm

This Website does offer recipes. Also, I did try making a tea of just pure,

ground ginger and very hot water. I liked that but discontinued it when I

found out here that it could cause too much anticoagulation along with

Coumadin. I would be very careful if you do try ginger, since you are also

taking Coumadin, I believe. Probably you should have very frequent Protime

tests for a while if you start using ginger because it's not like a

prescribed medication dose, as you know. You may have no idea of its effect

on your blood unless you are tested frequently. This is what my doctor said:

that I may eat anything I want along with Coumadin, but if I start eating a

new food, especially in large quantities, I should have my Protime checked

after a few days and more frequently for a while thereafter. I hope this

helps.

in sinus in Seattle (Day 30!)

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Thanks for another great link. Lots of good information here. Added

this one also to my favorites. Cornflakes (Total) came in as # 1 -

highest in Vitamin E. Assume because it has been enriched with

Vitamins. Doubt though that this would be considered " natural "

Vitamin E and might not help as much. Will continue going through

the list and take notes of foods with natural Vit. E. Again,

appreciate your help.

/

> <<Ginger - thanks for reminding me. Any suggestions how to

incoporate

> it into my diet (I am not really a tea drinker)?

> Any other ideas?

> />>

>

> http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/cgi-bin/nut_search.pl

> is a great site to find out what foods contain, not quite the right

way round

> if you want to find food high in Vitamin E but at least it's a

place to double

> check the numbers.

>

>

> --

> D

[Guest guest]

Hi Fran,

great suggestions. I like to stir fry myself and will add the ginger

root and maybe lemon grass (am not familiar with lemon grass as to K

properties). Olive oil and garlic have have been included in most of

my dishes by now. I assume there is a difference between dried Ginger

and fresh Ginger?

Thanks again,

/

> Ginger is great in stir fries. I usually start with some olive oil,

add a

> couple of cloves of garlic, some cut up root ginger, lemon grass

etc. This

> makes a lovely flavour to quick fry veggies and noodles in. You

could also

> add it to some soups. Chicken (organic) lemon and ginger goes well.

So does

> beef and ginger. If you were feeling really experimental you could

try

> making ginger beer (the non alcoholic kind). My mum used to do

this. I could

> try to get the recipe if you wanted. Come to think of it I might

like to try

> this myself too.

>

> Another way that I just thought of is crystalised ginger. It is

very sweet

> but must have the goodness of ginger in it. As I don't eat any

sweets or

> anything a peice of this once in a while should be ok.

>

> Fran

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AFIBsupport/files/Administrative/faq.htm

> > For more information: http://www.dialsolutions.com/af

> > Unsubscribe: AFIBsupport-unsubscribe@y...

> > List owner: AFIBsupport-owner@y...

> > For help on how to use the group, including how to drive it via

email,

> > send a blank email to AFIBsupport-help@y...

> >

> > Nothing in this message should be considered as medical advice,

or should

> be acted upon without consultation with one's physician.

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

My INR reading has been running around 2.0 on 5 mg Coumadin and my

previous diet. In order to reduce the Coumadin my reading has to go

up - and, even though I hate the p/t tests, I have been having them

almost weekly.

Anti-inflammatory properties: About 3 - 4 months ago, I also

eliminated dairy and wheat products (at the suggestion of a

nutritionist) That took care of about all of my intestinal problems.

Am still bothered by aches and pains and hope that won't last too

much longer.

I am now " celebrating " having taken medications for 6 months, and

should be scheduled for another stress test to see what is going on

with my heart. Some of my meds have been reduced, due to lifestyle

changes and Vitamins, I assume. Hope that will continue, and that I

might be able to drop some of them.

Thanks for being concerned and your good advice.

/

> ,

> Fran gave you some excellent ideas, especially the stir fry.

Ginger is a

> natural in Chinese or Thai style food. I never actually have tried

ginger

> very much myself because I was made aware of its blood thinning

properties by

> people in this group, and I was afraid to combine it with Coumadin,

> especially since my INR was then running around 3.0. At the time I

was

> considering it for its anti-inflammatory properties because I was

having much

> trouble with aches and pains, which Angus had predicted on this

board would

> happen due to immune system problems after I gave up dairy

products. It had

> been his experience after giving up dairy. That achy phase only

lasted for a

> short while, and I stopped thinking of ginger.

>

> However, I can pass along to you the URL for a Website which I

found when I

> was researching ginger:

http://nj.essortment.com/benefitsofging_rwoq.htm

> This Website does offer recipes. Also, I did try making a tea of

just pure,

> ground ginger and very hot water. I liked that but discontinued it

when I

> found out here that it could cause too much anticoagulation along

with

> Coumadin. I would be very careful if you do try ginger, since you

are also

> taking Coumadin, I believe. Probably you should have very frequent

Protime

> tests for a while if you start using ginger because it's not like a

> prescribed medication dose, as you know. You may have no idea of

its effect

> on your blood unless you are tested frequently. This is what my

doctor said:

> that I may eat anything I want along with Coumadin, but if I start

eating a

> new food, especially in large quantities, I should have my Protime

checked

> after a few days and more frequently for a while thereafter. I

hope this

> helps.

> in sinus in Seattle (Day 30!)

[Guest guest]

I don't really know, but I would assume that a lot of the good properties of

ginger would be lost in the drying and powdering process. I try to eat

everything as natural and fresh as possible.

Fran

Re: Coumadin / supplementation with vitamins

> Hi Fran,

> great suggestions. I like to stir fry myself and will add the ginger

> root and maybe lemon grass (am not familiar with lemon grass as to K

> properties). Olive oil and garlic have have been included in most of

> my dishes by now. I assume there is a difference between dried Ginger

> and fresh Ginger?

> Thanks again,

> /

>

>

>

> > Ginger is great in stir fries. I usually start with some olive oil,

> add a

> > couple of cloves of garlic, some cut up root ginger, lemon grass

> etc. This

> > makes a lovely flavour to quick fry veggies and noodles in. You

> could also

> > add it to some soups. Chicken (organic) lemon and ginger goes well.

> So does

> > beef and ginger. If you were feeling really experimental you could

> try

> > making ginger beer (the non alcoholic kind). My mum used to do

> this. I could

> > try to get the recipe if you wanted. Come to think of it I might

> like to try

> > this myself too.

> >

> > Another way that I just thought of is crystalised ginger. It is

> very sweet

> > but must have the goodness of ginger in it. As I don't eat any

> sweets or

> > anything a peice of this once in a while should be ok.

> >

> > Fran

> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AFIBsupport/files/Administrative/faq.htm

> > > For more information: http://www.dialsolutions.com/af

> > > Unsubscribe: AFIBsupport-unsubscribe@y...

> > > List owner: AFIBsupport-owner@y...

> > > For help on how to use the group, including how to drive it via

> email,

> > > send a blank email to AFIBsupport-help@y...

> > >

> > > Nothing in this message should be considered as medical advice,

> or should

> > be acted upon without consultation with one's physician.

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/14/2002 6:09:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

madisonn99@... writes:

<< About 3 - 4 months ago, I also

eliminated dairy and wheat products (at the suggestion of a

nutritionist) That took care of about all of my intestinal problems.

Am still bothered by aches and pains and hope that won't last too >>

,

It's interesting that you are also experiencing an aches and pains phase

after giving up dairy. Angus, who has posted on this board his experiences

with giving up dairy, predicted that I would go through that phase and that

old problems and injuries would resurface. He said it took him eight months

to get through the traumas to the point where he no longer had afib and felt

much better. For me, it's been nine months since I gave up dairy, and

Angus's prediction that it would get worse before it got better was certainly

true. I've had a very rocky nine months. However, if this eight or nine

month timetable is typical, then you are halfway there or maybe closer

because your stomach problems are already better. My stomach problems are

also better, but I haven't given up wheat yet.

I can't say for certain that my 31 day sinus run is the result of giving up

dairy because I've experienced prolonged periods of sinus before in my

nineteen year afib career. However, I'm sure that giving up dairy has had a

positive effect on my general health. It takes a while to see the full

positive effects, so you may have a pleasant surprise in your future.

in sinus in Seattle (DAY 31!!)